Screw It, Dmc And Lvl 3 Carpace Still Owns
Ollj
our themepark-stalking nightmare Fade Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10696Members
our themepark-stalking nightmare Fade Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10696Members
<div class="IPBDescription">on publics... carpace is evil.</div> I dont like it, just realized it.
<b>The chamber building orger "defence", "movement", "sensory" still owns on any public server</b> regardles to the general strategically situation, because there rarely IS any big strategy that's been followed by more than 30% of the team.
Why is it that way?
Simply because Defense is best for lerks, Movement is best for Fades and sensory is best for (getting) onos. Im not in the mood to discuss this now, just take it. Its not alien strat discussion.
Now Lerks is the cheapest, fade is the second cheapest ... so then the aperance of higher level aliens better matches the aperance of the upgrades that support them best when build in DMC order.
An even worse experience i made on experienced Public Servers (they know the game, they play much, just teamwork lacks sometimes) is
that <b>Level 3 carpace sometimes is even worse overpowered than in 1.04</b>, you just have to use it in a different way.
What way?
Well its exactly turned by 180° and this only works on publics also because it requires marines doing nothing but moving forward mindlessly without looking back.
In 1.04 you got level 3 carpace to kill them from infront, in 2.0 level 3 carpace is best to get from out of a vent past their turrets (without being wounded much) just to follow the atacking marines to get them from behind one after another. Some might hear u and shoot you up to tree times, sometimes a buddy shoots your back for a short time.
You just rip trough half of up to 8 marines from behind wile they rush somewere, and you can survive it.
Another evil thing on publics is comms not using viable sieges enough, so you can drop 4 dcs around the corner or in a vent near an outpost with phase, electrified TF,5 turrets and kill whatever phases out there without diing, the dcs healing you.
I got shot by 4 turrets, an electrified RT, one welding guy and 2 LA marines and I had a lot of fun biting around with level 3 carpace and 4 DC healing me, killed like 30 ppl in 5minutes.
Thats when I learned how to use carpace in an evil way.
"Naked" DC towers (without o chambers) covered by carpaced aliens are deadly.
<b>Now on reall experienced (rare) servers this is completely different. </b>
Marines know how to counter DMC and own 3 hives while having 8 electrified resnodes anr 100 res in 10 minutes, enjoyed that many times.
Best and maybe only way to prevent such expansive marines is the the alien MSD order!
Level 3 Carpace simply gets counted by marines not attacking or running anywere alone but early securing one rt per minute as a team. 4 Electrified stuff aint impressed by defense first.
---
<b>So whats this all about?</b>
Alien teammates whining about you for building SC first, even if its the perfect strategy, if marines are defensive or relocating, they will whine, they want to get you kicked, and thats the worst, they are right because you landed on a public server.
They will even whine more if resnodes are "6 to 2" , you got 2 hives early (due to resForKills with movement first) and you drop SC after MC. Its one of the best strategys then, but hell, not on publics.
Another problem is peoples mind, you cant change them from 1.04 to 2.0 that easy.
<b>Enjoy DMC and level 3 carpace more and more in future, even in 2.0 , sad.</b>
<b>The chamber building orger "defence", "movement", "sensory" still owns on any public server</b> regardles to the general strategically situation, because there rarely IS any big strategy that's been followed by more than 30% of the team.
Why is it that way?
Simply because Defense is best for lerks, Movement is best for Fades and sensory is best for (getting) onos. Im not in the mood to discuss this now, just take it. Its not alien strat discussion.
Now Lerks is the cheapest, fade is the second cheapest ... so then the aperance of higher level aliens better matches the aperance of the upgrades that support them best when build in DMC order.
An even worse experience i made on experienced Public Servers (they know the game, they play much, just teamwork lacks sometimes) is
that <b>Level 3 carpace sometimes is even worse overpowered than in 1.04</b>, you just have to use it in a different way.
What way?
Well its exactly turned by 180° and this only works on publics also because it requires marines doing nothing but moving forward mindlessly without looking back.
In 1.04 you got level 3 carpace to kill them from infront, in 2.0 level 3 carpace is best to get from out of a vent past their turrets (without being wounded much) just to follow the atacking marines to get them from behind one after another. Some might hear u and shoot you up to tree times, sometimes a buddy shoots your back for a short time.
You just rip trough half of up to 8 marines from behind wile they rush somewere, and you can survive it.
Another evil thing on publics is comms not using viable sieges enough, so you can drop 4 dcs around the corner or in a vent near an outpost with phase, electrified TF,5 turrets and kill whatever phases out there without diing, the dcs healing you.
I got shot by 4 turrets, an electrified RT, one welding guy and 2 LA marines and I had a lot of fun biting around with level 3 carpace and 4 DC healing me, killed like 30 ppl in 5minutes.
Thats when I learned how to use carpace in an evil way.
"Naked" DC towers (without o chambers) covered by carpaced aliens are deadly.
<b>Now on reall experienced (rare) servers this is completely different. </b>
Marines know how to counter DMC and own 3 hives while having 8 electrified resnodes anr 100 res in 10 minutes, enjoyed that many times.
Best and maybe only way to prevent such expansive marines is the the alien MSD order!
Level 3 Carpace simply gets counted by marines not attacking or running anywere alone but early securing one rt per minute as a team. 4 Electrified stuff aint impressed by defense first.
---
<b>So whats this all about?</b>
Alien teammates whining about you for building SC first, even if its the perfect strategy, if marines are defensive or relocating, they will whine, they want to get you kicked, and thats the worst, they are right because you landed on a public server.
They will even whine more if resnodes are "6 to 2" , you got 2 hives early (due to resForKills with movement first) and you drop SC after MC. Its one of the best strategys then, but hell, not on publics.
Another problem is peoples mind, you cant change them from 1.04 to 2.0 that easy.
<b>Enjoy DMC and level 3 carpace more and more in future, even in 2.0 , sad.</b>
Comments
BTW, sensory first is never a good strategy unless you want to lose.
In addition, I don't mean to be rude, but you really need to proofread your posts. Anyone who posts as much as you do at the length that you do really should write with a bit more quality.
Maybe SC first just sucks on clanservers because Pheromones is only usefull in 1 of 100 games, but its great on "medium advanced servers", were aliens are experienced enough to use it but marines aint experienced in counting it just by multiple SC and schootguns, for example.
Carapace is also far less effective for all aliens.
Also I would argue that DC's are the best chambers for Fade and Onos and MC's are best for lerks...
u just have to use cloaking well and end the game before the marines start to tech and get res and stuff
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funnyly it wasnt.
seen servers that learned how to use SC first (zerg rushes) really evil on 1.04 with amazing garuanted sucess, better than any DMS, and just a few reg commanders knew how to counter this what also needed experienced marines.
u just have to use cloaking well and end the game before the marines start to tech and get res and stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you going to do if the comm scans?
A rather simple counter is killing the obs with a group of 3 skulks.
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funnyly it wasnt.
seen servers that learned how to use SC first (zerg rushes) really evil on 1.04 with amazing garuanted sucess, better than any DMS, and just a few reg commanders knew how to counter this what also needed experienced marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well in 1.04 you could do any chamber 1st if the marine team sucked enough...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A rather simple counter is killing the obs with a group of 3 skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except the obs uncloaks you.
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DC first is best for adv evos. DC is by far the best chamber for fade / onos and thats for regen.
SC/MC first is perfectly viable on pub servers. You just NEED to have 1 person start saving for the hive immediatly (maybe do 1 2 point upgrade and thats it).
If others build rts / scs the saver can get a hive up quick and then drop down D.
D is needed Onos/Fades and those come so quick that D needs to be first or second with a super quick hive.
As for sens rush, the obs is usuallyu in a corner of the base and the skulks can have no trouble walkjing over structures to feast upon it if you are able to distract the marines. By the time the commander types 'OMG THEYRE KILLING THE OBS!!!' its too late, 30 res dow nthe drain <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
DC is usually chosen first though because of its healin, but a mc farm will ensure that u never run out of adren, ever <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
To the devs, I strongly encrouage that you up celeritys speed just a LITTLE again, not even all the way back to 2.0's speed, if for nothing else, to make the build order, a little less non linear.
As for sens rush, the obs is usuallyu in a corner of the base and the skulks can have no trouble walkjing over structures to feast upon it if you are able to distract the marines. By the time the commander types 'OMG THEYRE KILLING THE OBS!!!' its too late, 30 res dow nthe drain <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
DC is usually chosen first though because of its healin, but a mc farm will ensure that u never run out of adren, ever <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
If I have SoF the only thing on the map that can worry me is an HA train. And if I've been doing my job I'll have multiple chambers and upgraded lifeforms to rely on.
-Jag
It works if you plan it with your team, and even if it doesn't, you should be playing on servers that have an alien team that isn't kickvote-happy. That, and you shouldn't EVER do it twice in a row. You should also pick a good map for it. I still don't get why DMS is always the usual plan, no matter the map. I love Sense first in something like Mineshaft or Lost, or even Nothing. There are so many times that cloaking, and later SoF come in handy. And now that it cloaks you even when walking, it's ridiculously useful. You can sweep the marines from the first five minutes right on along to the endgame, when you have three hives without ever having to have pushed them out of any of them.
He knows that D>M>S is what many people in pubs have started to concrete, but he's found that to do it in a different order you have to play the game differently. Just as you change the way you play when you change teams from Marine to Alien, you have to change the way you play from DC to SC. It doesn't mean that SC is crap, it's just an untapped portion of the game that many people neglect due to DC suiting their 1.04 mindset.
Sorry, didn't finish this off. Umm.... This is probably not a word similar to what Oliji had in mind but it sort of makes sense to me. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Remember, Flayra planned this game so that it would balanced. We can tell from the amount of planning that went into it that DC should be just as good a first chamber as SC, it's just pubs are not noticing it.
HoweverI remember just after 2.0 came out everyone was having a field day with building SC or MC first AND STILL WINNG FREQUNTLY.
True DMS is a good combo but its definitly not the only good combo. I think it all depends on the map. I mean on Mineshaft with its cramped dark corriders, SCs work exceptionaly well.
On more open maps like veil, or eclipse, maybe d works, better,
Large maps like Caged, Motion seems best,
Either way, Ive seen aliens do very well and win with building something besides D first.
HoweverI remember just after 2.0 came out everyone was having a field day with building SC or MC first AND STILL WINNG FREQUNTLY.
True DMS is a good combo but its definitly not the only good combo. I think it all depends on the map. I mean on Mineshaft with its cramped dark corriders, SCs work exceptionaly well.
On more open maps like veil, or eclipse, maybe d works, better,
Large maps like Caged, Motion seems best,
Either way, Ive seen aliens do very well and win with building something besides D first. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The win.
I would like to think that different maps encourage different chambers (meaning they're better balanced than days of yore), but I still do best with M first.
An argument had recently around COFR suggested that going D first encouraged too many "rambo aliens" who save for onos, fade, onos, fade, instead of building chambers, or hives, or helping the team out at all. Motion makes them stay with the group's plan for one hive longer.
I would agree with this, however I'm one of the rambo aliens that likes to fade early.
However, I personally believe MC is the best skulk chamber, and still useful for healing (gorge adren) and useful in the mid game.
The problem with SC is if you never get another hive you are truely fed.
However motion is a good mid game chamber.
That being said if someone told me I would not have a hive until 10-15 min into the game I would always want DC first for onos/fade regen.
The cloaking field can "defend" structures by hiding them - better the enemy doesn't know where they are in the first place as opposed to being able to heal the damage. Scent of fear allows for marine movement to be countered quickly - both defencive/offencive here.
The cloak upgrade allows for the currently most powerful feature the sensory offers - cloak walking. 3 Cloaked skulks can counter pretty much any marine rush if done correctly. The comm would need to react quickly or he is just going to get all of his team killed. This puts the marines in a forced defencive position - puting the aliens on the path to victory - if they can maintain this advantage.
However, having defence as a second chamber in my opinion is neccessary. By hive 2 you will usually have fades/onos which will be in need of the defencive options so as to stay alive, as fades/onos are very big targets. Walking into marine spawn as an onos without regen or redept is like painting a huge target on yourself and shouting "SHOOT ME!"
Having said all this, I would say that there is currently much more flexibility than there ever was with 1.04. As long as the team has an idea what it is doing as a team, any chamber can work, or indeed, fail if the team isn't up to it.
As good as Sensory and Movement are, they both need something extra.
People on pubs just don't like to lose. If you pick what they see as an inferior chamber, even if its inferior only at midgame, they will hang you. It's almost as bad on the commander side of things; at least most pub marines are used to losing and don't mind the odd-ball strategy so much.
OK! I've HAD IT!
Even in this post people go "YOU GET SC FIRST YOU LOSE!!!11"
WTH (pardon my french)
If ANYTHING SC first is a good choice because it allows you to stay hidden and make a LOT more kills than with a DC (a good skulk manages to sneak up anyway) and thus rack in quick res for the second hive which then leaves open the tactical choice of DC or MC.
DC is good for general defense and possible "sieging" (also depending on the ammount of oni on a team).
MC is good if the rines are trying to take down hives so transport can be quick and defenses can quickly gather at the place that is getting attacked.
I hear this sort of whining on and off and it is really starting to annoy me.
It is a shame you cannot program a personality filter into the HL engine so general whiners get banned before they can do any harm.
I love the game, 2.0 rocks, the balancing of chambers is awesome.
</rant>
just my 2c
I think you all are right. Any chamber is viable at the beginning, and offering huge bonuses to any alien capable of playing with the upgrades.
However; by the second hive, the aliens MUST have three defense chambers if they don't want to put themself in a tough position: Onos (the counter to marine HA) without dcs are nothing but big beefs waiting to be slaughtered. The onos (and even fades/gorges with regen) are also a natural counter to various lockdowns and chokepoint farms. D last are tough uphill battles and impossible to win against competent marines, from what I have experienced.
Sensory is best picked at the very start of the game -- if I had the choice between sensory second and movement second, I'd pick movement because its upgrades fits the higher lifeforms very well.
So, what are we down to? Three alternate paths, as I see it: DMS, MDS, SDM.
Its a rare sight to see a server where
S>M>D, D>S>M, M>D>S, D>S>M, M>S>D, S>D>M is the norm. The only acceptable order on pubs is and sad will always be D>M>S. I don't agree with that order and I really enjoy D>S>M alot but thats a tabo and will most times result in mad flaming and ban threatning. But think back to the first week of AUG. If anyone placed anything besides S>M>D, or S>D>M people would flame the hell out of you. Now its 180, if you place anything besides DC first the team seems to give up right there or any bad luck is blamed on the gorge!
I like to place what the team wants, but there are times where I want to place S>D>M and know that it will help the team, but as soon as I do I get a bad amount of explicits aimed at me and that makes me MAD!
Any chamber is possible for a win, but due to the GREEDY MENTALITY of 5 min Onii players anything besides DC first will **** them off and you won't hear the end of it.
Next time I play I am going to Place whatever I want first and the server will have to learn to addapt, I think all of you should do the same, mix it up and break the D>M>S loop, if you don't people will continue this mentality of greed and selfishness!
Agreed, I take regen now over Carapace, and I hope I can continue to do so...
Still, I would like to see MC's make a big come back as the first hive chamber.