<!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak+Sep 24 2003, 09:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Sep 24 2003, 09:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problems I have with SCs first are, primarily, in order for SCs to be at their most effective, they need to be stratigically placed around the map. This is too expensive to be doing when the aliens have only one RT. Also, SC is quickly and easily ruined when the first one is dropped and someone whines in global chat "OMG Sens first GG". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats because they have a poor game skill and think that without the big upgrades that DCs ca give, theu can't win. Thats classic CS mentality. "The only way to win is the Rush them head on!" NS is a game of tactics, use the SC to give you the edge by making the Marines afrade to leave base. Pleople who place SC in the corner of a room and think no one will look there are the ones who CRY that SC sucks once its found. "Well DUH' **** where else do people normally put them, everyone expects it to be in the corner, try placing it in different areas. On top of boxes that you can reach (Jump and place while in mid air). On railings above the floor. In the middle of a room, if they are expecting it to be in the corner they might not think to spray the area to find it. Abover the ground out of reach. In the next room.
If people bothered to learn to use SC correctly when placing them, they would find that they can OWN the marines! Too bad people don't think most times when they are a gorge!
imo MC is best early game for skulks, mainly i find all the DC upgrades arnt really worth it. U spend res and time evolving to get what ever upgrade.
The thing with SC is its pretty pointless unless u can build lots. maybe if it was cheaper than other chambers it would be a more viable early game but its crap unless u can build lots and only way u can do that early game is too hav lots of gorges early game.
When you think about it , MSD and SMD have an incredible potential if the alien team compensates the lack of DCs with teamwork. To be effective , middle evolutions (lerk and fade) must have MCs ; they don't need DCs to survive , but upgraded gun make their job quite difficult then. SCs make early lerks viable as they don't need to regenerate that often (spore spam , prediction , vent camping) ; MCs on the other hand , let them shoot marines at their heart's content while manoeuvering. Movement is the skill chamber : skilled lerks and fades fly so fast they aren't any more vulnerable. Celerity or silence skulks fight the same way , killing marines before they have the chance to shoot them.
With sensories AND movements... skulks can locate and eliminate clueless marines. With a good sensory network , marine squads can hardly reach any hive location without massive comm support. Cloaked OCs give a nice revenue by trapping rambos , and MCs allow skulks to quickly deal with the marines threatening theses. In case of heavy attack , a SoF / Adren lerk can ruin the marine's day. With adequate gorge support , a fade can weaken or destroy the smaller squads as soon as they leave their base.
Skilled onos can take advantage of movement and sensory upgrades as well. Stomping unexpecting marines just negates their weapon upgrades. With SoF or cloaking , chances are the onos will catch them off guard and devour at least one before retreating or crushing the rest. Adrenaline can be used to keep them stunned , Celerity to escape faster (less damage , shorter healing time) , Silence to pick your "fights" and eat them one at a time without taking any damage whatsoever (won't work if they stick together obviously)
Now , non - DC onos aren't very good at defending the hive in the late game , that's for sure. But it isn't their main task anyway , when the hive is attacked by HAs , the best they can do is to dismantle a hive lockdown or attack the marine main base. It only requires lerk or gorge support... using hearing and SoF , they can destroy the phase and TF with minimal risks.
Unnerfing Celerity and adding a decent 3rd Sensory upgrade will make the SMD and MSD orders far more common on decent servers.
I'll take any chamber first, but if I'm making the decision I'll shy away from DC (unless they've relocated to a hive then you need to make sure you have a hive tied to DC ) because I just got damn bored of it in 1.04. I <b>like</b> variation. Sensory first is often FUN as is MC for silence.If you own them with either of these, get MC next because silence and cloak is AMAZING FUN. DCs just get boring in my opinion.
DC first is good if your team is a bunch of rambos.
MC first is good if you have a team that will work together.
Personally I am a bit sick of D since it allows the more selfish players to go fade/onos instead of putting up a second hive, then again, I've seen people go fade even though we only had *one* hive and *sensory* so some people are just beyond help.
As Marine I've had some very satisfying moments against D first. The best one being when I and two teammates are camped out in atmos. It's 4-5 mins into the game and we are all looking at the corner leading from Feed to Atmos. A Fade rounds the corner in super speed. I get off a "Fade in.." while shooting, and he's dead! 3 LMGs concentrating fire = dead Fade. I asked the COM to ping Feedwater, which still wasn't going up. So I ask the alien:
"Was it worth being Fade for 0.5 seconds instead of getting a hive?"
I cant belive what im seeing. All these people just saying such and such chamber is better first than this without any reason. For shame.
First off: MCs are great all around on public servers if you know how to use em. Celerity/Silence skulk own on so many maps its not even funny. For example Silence skulks on Eclipse or other semi-dark maps get kills easily, especially from those "nubbish" rambos. Celerity skulks are usually great cause for example on ns_caged (i think its caged, the one with Power Silo. aka ns_cargo) there are so many narrow hallways, usually an alien's bane. Not any more. jump from wall to wall and you can take on so many more mariens than normal (I can normally take on 3 or 4 marines with ease, i killed the entire marine team minus one commander by the Miasma Walkway RT AND 7 mariens outside viaduct doign this).
Second: DCs are great period. Regen is best for lerks/onos (trust me. try Rgen Onos on those pesky farms. take out the PG THEN the TF. never get below 400 life if no mariens showed up, plus lvl 2 marines just can barley hurt you before you can kill em) and redemption skulks, lerks, onos, and fade are great too. (Redemption skulks! I almost always get that as i redempt 9 times out of 10. 30 res for a 2 res redempt that worked 6 times? i'll take it!). Carapace irritates me a lil in 2.01 but its still a great upgrade for skulks and fades (i saw a player go for 45 min or so with cara fade and get 72 kills about!) if you are good at retreating when you need to.
Third: SCs. Why do you hate them? If your team will be extreamly offensive and ALL gorge to get a SC instead of say an RT and place them around the marine start and in places to give you cloak from your hive to there (BEST on Eclipse!) then you all get SoF and go a huntin. 20 minute win most of the time if your team complies (NOTE: I play on a 24 player server, if you play 6v6 or 8v8 sometimes the map is too big to do this well!). SCs are NEVER bad but if you have a lot of "nubbish" players on or just dont know them or their skill then you should probalby go MC/DC first.
Oh and btw, its MC>DC>SC most of the time. Aliens should be aggressive. Play aggressive with MCs and prepare for major pwnage. MCs also hinder res hoarders usually so unless they are just dumb/good they wont go onos/lerks/fades until a 2nd hive. Which you only need 2 to win.
as a gorge place sensory towers all over the place in spots marines are very unlikely to step
doing this early game gives your team the ability to move freely and invisibly once motion tracking is in use the Scent Of Fear upgrade ...you are playing with the same tools as marines...except you can run on walls :-)
they have a wide range of affect you can still build cloaked offense towers without giving away the location of the sensory tower in fact i have built and rebuilt areas of cloaked offensive towers simply because nobody ever stepped on my sensory.
movement rules because of adrenaline celerity and faster shooting offense towers
Ollj, do me a favor and tell me how SC isn't completely owned by obs? I know as comm, the second I know they have cloaking I pop an obs up at home and one in each forward base. Now all the aliens have is unupgraded aliens.
Now lets say the marines get a hive lock. You have plenty of res, and SC and MC chambers. Onos = dead to mid-teir marines, fades are a joke...but all for the "omg you can walk around and cloak" which is cancelled by 25 res obs.
I see folks drop SC first and say "try it" on pubs. Yes, sometimes we win, but each time aliens win with SC it's because the marine team was sub-par, or their commander didn't know how to deal with it.
SC is also 1-dimensional, as where the other chambers have upgrades that are useful to all alien types. As Lerk, Adrenaline is probably the most useful upgrade, and cara or regen will allow for either better combat staying power or superior harassment ability. As fade, adrenaline makes blink far more effective, celerity can reduce the need to use it altogether. Cara takes the sting off those upgraded weapons, and redempt can help you a lot if your res is suffering. As Onos, regen reigns supreme allowing you to decimate even coordinated teams that aren't well-armed. Movement chambers allow for celerity (to counter the Onos' natural clumsiness and lack of speed) adrenaline helps keep stomp from sucking up your energy, and redempt (personally I don't like it, but...) can be a lifesaver in those games where it takes 10 mins to get 100 res. Hell, even gorge can make better use of DC and MC, using silence to stay out of harm's way, adren for bile bombing, and redempt for the early game when res is precious.
Of all these strats, no other chamber can be completely countered so easily by the marines. Defense requires upgraded weapons and armor, which usually comes later for aggressive marines as they use they res to gain territory. And movement can't be countered at all. (Silence by MT, but there's still 2 other great upgrades)
While I'll agree that D>M>S is the easiest for pub players to use, it's also the most effective, giving your hard-hitters (Fade and Onos) the needed survivability early to make them worth their big res investments. It makes skulks able to kill upgraded marines, and even allows lerks to harass much better (vent lerk with regen can grate any commander's nerves)
MC first even, a personal choice of mine, allows for either silenced or celerity skulks (both of which are excellent upgrades) and adren Lerk, which is superior for lerks who stay in combat. It does force you to get a 2nd hive quickly, however, so that Fade and Onos aren't too easily killed.
This got a bit longer than I'd hoped. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Comments?
Your post makes absolutely no sense and is completely wrong. All the things you say "Just trust me" are wrong too.
Build order is...
1. D or M 2. D or M. 3. S
OR
1. S 2. D 3. M
those are your 3 options. Defense should never be a last chamber. Most common is D M S for experienced teams. M D S for not so experienced teams. Really experienced teams can make S first work, but its still not as good as D M S.
Anyways, Cara 2.01 isn't as good as 1.04, or anywhere close.
<!--QuoteBegin--pandas|RoQ+Sep 24 2003, 03:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pandas|RoQ @ Sep 24 2003, 03:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> those are your 3 options. Defense should never be a last chamber. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I gotta agree. The adv evos need d, and m is almost as needed.
However you can get by with d/sense but you can't get by with move/sense.
Sense is counterable by moving in groups and have the comm drop scan sweeps when needed. Which is the typical marine behavior anyway. I agree cloaking/silenced skuls are fantastic, but you can't risk that if you got some adv evos.
one thing to remember in these 'chamber first' threads is the ever-present possibility of a 1 hive lockdown... in about half of your games (or maybe more/less depending on the marine team) the end game will take place at the 3rd hive which you'll have to kill the marines to get. Basically what I'm saying is that whatever strategy you go for you have to be prepared to accept you might not ever get that 3rd chamber type, so it's best to decide which chamber you're going to miss the least for the tactics you're going to use this match and make it your last =/
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
those are your 3 options. Defense should never be a last chamber. [...] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Finally a sensible soul.
AmazingAlienEnrique is right, and btw pandas|RoQ i didnt see him mention getting DCs last ANYWHERE in that damn post. He said SCs were pretty much usless (fun against "nubbish" marine teams) and that MCs are just plain better options for Skulks/Fades/Lerks for harassing the marines. Which is almost always true.
Also marines (at the least on my server) ALWAYS get 1 hive locked. You dont need 3 hives to win. You need only MCs and DCs and you can take out any marine team. I prefer MCs first simply because people will be more encouraged to get a 2nd hive before fading/onosing. And seein as many people can get 25 res in under 5 minutes you should have a 2nd hive within 10 minutes of the game and have 3 DCs and 2-3 MCs (I always build 2 chambers at the start of the game before i go hunting mariens).
If you go Onos without DCs your just plain dumb or the marine team really really sucks. Risking 100 res like that is just insane. Regen Onos are nigh invincible until lvl 2 HMGs show up or a lot of lvl 3 LMGs. Fades with celerity are great at hit and runs, skulks the same and with silence they just plain can take out those rambos that always show up. Lerks with Adren can spore like nobody's business.
So people, if you have problems with res hoarders or killing those groups of 4 marines go MC first! I can garuntee the Aliens are tougher to kill on my server with MCs first.
Oh and pandas|RoQ. AmazingAlienEnrique isnt an utter dumb...well...person since these forums are censored, like you seem to imply. You pretty much said what he did just shorter and with out ANY argument what so ever. At least thats what i understand and considering the time i might not be entirley coherent right now. But still. Lighten up.
<!--QuoteBegin--AmazingAlienEnrique+Sep 25 2003, 02:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AmazingAlienEnrique @ Sep 25 2003, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe I am dumb...I thought RoQ was agreeing with me and his "reply" was to the original poster.
I could be wrong though... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol, I don't think RoQ ment to reply to you, so don't worry.
Geminosity had the right Idea You need to keep your team in a possition where if a Hive gets locked down, you will have the power to get it back. So that sadly means that you are always going to need DCs first or second. I would rather drop MC first because it will promote people to get that 2nd hive before they become greedy Onii.
The thing I don't get is why some people give up if they see anything besides DC first. The game isn't over because you can't become a ONOS in 5 mins you know. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Sep 25 2003, 02:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Sep 25 2003, 02:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Geminosity had the right Idea You need to keep your team in a possition where if a Hive gets locked down, you will have the power to get it back. So that sadly means that you are always going to need DCs first or second. I would rather drop MC first because it will promote people to get that 2nd hive before they become greedy Onii.
The thing I don't get is why some people give up if they see anything besides DC first. The game isn't over because you can't become a ONOS in 5 mins you know. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thing is, getting a fade before your second hive against a skilled team is a BIG risk.
And being a fade without d chambers against a skilled team is another BIG RISK.
I usually spend most of the game trapped as a gorge to make sure everything is running right, but in the rare event we have another competent gorge who's doing everything I usually have to cover and we've got dcs I'll go early fade. Though me going early fade is rare I've never actually been in a game where I go early fade and we lose; I usually end up taking out several RTs and a couple of marine outposts before they even come close to getting me =3
dc's first is good for early fades but mcs and scs are viable too... they just mean your large investments don't have the same security and you have to play it different, but getting locked down and having no dcs is pretty ick =s
Another plus in favour of D is the area-healing ability, which I don't think anyone mentioned yet.. A single D chamber in a vent can net the team a lot of otherwise lost travel time since they don't necessarily have to go all the way back to the hive to heal if they're damaged.
This is especially important when attacking marine fortifications, since the marines will have much more difficulty holding an outpost under continuous pressure from aliens able to hang around in the.vicinity. pandas|ROQ is correct in that D should never be the 3rd chamber, since marines turtling in the 3rd hive will be disastrous and sensory will not help you break in.
M first is ok, but it seems to me it usually boils down to you making a commitment to an early second hive to get D anyway.
My humble opinion is that D first is best on pub servers so early regen fades can take down electrified RTs before the 2nd hive goes up, denying the marines res for the upgrades and heavier weapons they'll need to win the midgame. I hear from a friend that a couple of regen skulks (interesting, huh) can make short work of unguarded electrified RTs as well but I haven't had a chance to try it yet.
I do not agree that carapace is that amazing, since regen is really the killer D ability for the higher lifeforms, unlike 1.04. That said, carapace can be good for the final assaults since you'll probably have forward D chambers to heal at anyway.
I'v said this once, and I'll say it again. I will never build a Def. Chamber first. Not because its not a good chamber, but because of the Nub Cakes that always screw the team by hording rez. They know its the best chamber for Onos, so they instantly start saving. Hives could be dying, chambers lost but that rez leech will still wait for Onos. :/
As for sensory first, I got **** with Def Chamber first for the 8th time in a row so on the 9th game I dropped a sensory. Some Anal Player tried to kick vote me for that. I dropped the chamber so early in the game that Rines had no counter for it and we won really quickly using cloaked Skulks. They just keep pressure on the rines and continously destroy there Obs Tower (Usually BEFORE it was built).
My point is that Movement, and Sensories are "best" first chambers as they won't be countered until midgame, and at midgame you should have a 2nd hive up and most likely your Defense chambers.
<!--QuoteBegin--Techen+Sep 25 2003, 07:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Techen @ Sep 25 2003, 07:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'v said this once, and I'll say it again. I will never build a Def. Chamber first. Not because its not a good chamber, but because of the Nub Cakes that always screw the team by hording rez. They know its the best chamber for Onos, so they instantly start saving. Hives could be dying, chambers lost but that rez leech will still wait for Onos. :/
As for sensory first, I got **** with Def Chamber first for the 8th time in a row so on the 9th game I dropped a sensory. Some Anal Player tried to kick vote me for that. I dropped the chamber so early in the game that Rines had no counter for it and we won really quickly using cloaked Skulks. They just keep pressure on the rines and continously destroy there Obs Tower (Usually BEFORE it was built).
My point is that Movement, and Sensories are "best" first chambers as they won't be countered until midgame, and at midgame you should have a 2nd hive up and most likely your Defense chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ... this is a terrible reason... why not just have good teamwork with the best chamber? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe your playing the game differently to how it should be played for each chamber? MC and DC are often the "best" choices because they suit the general population's way of playing. Perhaps SC could be equally effective if you changed the way you played, instead of rushing, wait for them to come. Use your brain sometimes instead of your mouth*chomp chomp* <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Crow, the flaw with that reasoning is a smart commander will drop obs the second he knows aliens have cloaking. If your marines work together, you can have them assault RTs and hives by giving them scanner sweeps. This negates the cloaking entirely, and can be done almost immediately. Personally, I often react to the aliens' first upgrade by seeing what they have, and building either obs or Arms Lab right away (Unless we're doing well early, then I just pop both down)
Cloaking has uses for sure, and a comm can't always scanner sweep. But I hate being "stuck" with sense when trying to gain some ground on aggressive marines.
The best choice is to ask your team what upgrade they'd prefer and give them that, if you're gorge.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Well, actually .. sensory and defense chambers are something you can use to put up a forward position. While DC's are more stable - not negated by scans, and carapace works really well in defending a DC position - you only need to drop one sensory rather than 3 to "hold" a position.
Movement chambers don't have quite the same "hold" ability, unless you have a group of good gorges willing to play the heal-spam game.
Some maps seems to be designed for one or the other chamber - eclipse is quite nice for sensory, with many vents where sensories can be hidden. Bast, OTOH, has that roof chamber in feedwater that's just BEGGING for DC's.
that and the underwater tunnel where a gorge can setup an unpassable gauntlet of dcs and ocs that kills any marine coming down there but allows aliens to hold their breath forever =D
<!--QuoteBegin--Sir Robin+Sep 26 2003, 03:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sir Robin @ Sep 26 2003, 03:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> in japan, carapace comes first, movement second... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Carapace comes first? I thought it was defense chambers. Regen is useful too, and even redemption has its uses.
Comments
Thats because they have a poor game skill and think that without the big upgrades that DCs ca give, theu can't win.
Thats classic CS mentality. "The only way to win is the Rush them head on!"
NS is a game of tactics, use the SC to give you the edge by making the Marines afrade to leave base. Pleople who place SC in the corner of a room and think no one will look there are the ones who CRY that SC sucks once its found. "Well DUH' **** where else do people normally put them, everyone expects it to be in the corner, try placing it in different areas. On top of boxes that you can reach (Jump and place while in mid air). On railings above the floor. In the middle of a room, if they are expecting it to be in the corner they might not think to spray the area to find it. Abover the ground out of reach. In the next room.
If people bothered to learn to use SC correctly when placing them, they would find that they can OWN the marines! Too bad people don't think most times when they are a gorge!
The thing with SC is its pretty pointless unless u can build lots. maybe if it was cheaper than other chambers it would be a more viable early game but its crap unless u can build lots and only way u can do that early game is too hav lots of gorges early game.
With sensories AND movements... skulks can locate and eliminate clueless marines. With a good sensory network , marine squads can hardly reach any hive location without massive comm support. Cloaked OCs give a nice revenue by trapping rambos , and MCs allow skulks to quickly deal with the marines threatening theses. In case of heavy attack , a SoF / Adren lerk can ruin the marine's day. With adequate gorge support , a fade can weaken or destroy the smaller squads as soon as they leave their base.
Skilled onos can take advantage of movement and sensory upgrades as well. Stomping unexpecting marines just negates their weapon upgrades. With SoF or cloaking , chances are the onos will catch them off guard and devour at least one before retreating or crushing the rest. Adrenaline can be used to keep them stunned , Celerity to escape faster (less damage , shorter healing time) , Silence to pick your "fights" and eat them one at a time without taking any damage whatsoever (won't work if they stick together obviously)
Now , non - DC onos aren't very good at defending the hive in the late game , that's for sure. But it isn't their main task anyway , when the hive is attacked by HAs , the best they can do is to dismantle a hive lockdown or attack the marine main base. It only requires lerk or gorge support... using hearing and SoF , they can destroy the phase and TF with minimal risks.
Unnerfing Celerity and adding a decent 3rd Sensory upgrade will make the SMD and MSD orders far more common on decent servers.
DC first is good if your team is a bunch of rambos.
MC first is good if you have a team that will work together.
Personally I am a bit sick of D since it allows the more selfish players to go fade/onos instead of putting up a second hive, then again, I've seen people go fade even though we only had *one* hive and *sensory* so some people are just beyond help.
As Marine I've had some very satisfying moments against D first. The best one being when I and two teammates are camped out in atmos. It's 4-5 mins into the game and we are all looking at the corner leading from Feed to Atmos. A Fade rounds the corner in super speed. I get off a "Fade in.." while shooting, and he's dead! 3 LMGs concentrating fire = dead Fade. I asked the COM to ping Feedwater, which still wasn't going up. So I ask the alien:
"Was it worth being Fade for 0.5 seconds instead of getting a hive?"
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
First off: MCs are great all around on public servers if you know how to use em. Celerity/Silence skulk own on so many maps its not even funny. For example Silence skulks on Eclipse or other semi-dark maps get kills easily, especially from those "nubbish" rambos. Celerity skulks are usually great cause for example on ns_caged (i think its caged, the one with Power Silo. aka ns_cargo) there are so many narrow hallways, usually an alien's bane. Not any more. jump from wall to wall and you can take on so many more mariens than normal (I can normally take on 3 or 4 marines with ease, i killed the entire marine team minus one commander by the Miasma Walkway RT AND 7 mariens outside viaduct doign this).
Second: DCs are great period. Regen is best for lerks/onos (trust me. try Rgen Onos on those pesky farms. take out the PG THEN the TF. never get below 400 life if no mariens showed up, plus lvl 2 marines just can barley hurt you before you can kill em) and redemption skulks, lerks, onos, and fade are great too. (Redemption skulks! I almost always get that as i redempt 9 times out of 10. 30 res for a 2 res redempt that worked 6 times? i'll take it!). Carapace irritates me a lil in 2.01 but its still a great upgrade for skulks and fades (i saw a player go for 45 min or so with cara fade and get 72 kills about!) if you are good at retreating when you need to.
Third: SCs. Why do you hate them? If your team will be extreamly offensive and ALL gorge to get a SC instead of say an RT and place them around the marine start and in places to give you cloak from your hive to there (BEST on Eclipse!) then you all get SoF and go a huntin. 20 minute win most of the time if your team complies (NOTE: I play on a 24 player server, if you play 6v6 or 8v8 sometimes the map is too big to do this well!). SCs are NEVER bad but if you have a lot of "nubbish" players on or just dont know them or their skill then you should probalby go MC/DC first.
Oh and btw, its MC>DC>SC most of the time. Aliens should be aggressive. Play aggressive with MCs and prepare for major pwnage. MCs also hinder res hoarders usually so unless they are just dumb/good they wont go onos/lerks/fades until a 2nd hive. Which you only need 2 to win.
-Red
as a gorge place sensory towers all over the place in spots marines are very unlikely to step
doing this early game gives your team the ability to move freely and invisibly
once motion tracking is in use the Scent Of Fear upgrade ...you are playing with the same tools
as marines...except you can run on walls :-)
they have a wide range of affect
you can still build cloaked offense towers without giving away the location of the sensory tower
in fact i have built and rebuilt areas of cloaked offensive towers
simply because nobody ever stepped on my sensory.
movement rules
because of adrenaline celerity and faster shooting offense towers
When you play tonight, try placing a MC first and then a DC or a SC first then a DC yada, yada, yada... Mix it up!
because of adrenaline celerity and faster shooting offense towers <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Movement chambers don't affect offense towers.
Now lets say the marines get a hive lock. You have plenty of res, and SC and MC chambers. Onos = dead to mid-teir marines, fades are a joke...but all for the "omg you can walk around and cloak" which is cancelled by 25 res obs.
I see folks drop SC first and say "try it" on pubs. Yes, sometimes we win, but each time aliens win with SC it's because the marine team was sub-par, or their commander didn't know how to deal with it.
SC is also 1-dimensional, as where the other chambers have upgrades that are useful to all alien types. As Lerk, Adrenaline is probably the most useful upgrade, and cara or regen will allow for either better combat staying power or superior harassment ability. As fade, adrenaline makes blink far more effective, celerity can reduce the need to use it altogether. Cara takes the sting off those upgraded weapons, and redempt can help you a lot if your res is suffering. As Onos, regen reigns supreme allowing you to decimate even coordinated teams that aren't well-armed. Movement chambers allow for celerity (to counter the Onos' natural clumsiness and lack of speed) adrenaline helps keep stomp from sucking up your energy, and redempt (personally I don't like it, but...) can be a lifesaver in those games where it takes 10 mins to get 100 res. Hell, even gorge can make better use of DC and MC, using silence to stay out of harm's way, adren for bile bombing, and redempt for the early game when res is precious.
Of all these strats, no other chamber can be completely countered so easily by the marines. Defense requires upgraded weapons and armor, which usually comes later for aggressive marines as they use they res to gain territory. And movement can't be countered at all. (Silence by MT, but there's still 2 other great upgrades)
While I'll agree that D>M>S is the easiest for pub players to use, it's also the most effective, giving your hard-hitters (Fade and Onos) the needed survivability early to make them worth their big res investments. It makes skulks able to kill upgraded marines, and even allows lerks to harass much better (vent lerk with regen can grate any commander's nerves)
MC first even, a personal choice of mine, allows for either silenced or celerity skulks (both of which are excellent upgrades) and adren Lerk, which is superior for lerks who stay in combat. It does force you to get a 2nd hive quickly, however, so that Fade and Onos aren't too easily killed.
This got a bit longer than I'd hoped. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Comments?
Build order is...
1. D or M
2. D or M.
3. S
OR
1. S
2. D
3. M
those are your 3 options. Defense should never be a last chamber. Most common is D M S for experienced teams. M D S for not so experienced teams. Really experienced teams can make S first work, but its still not as good as D M S.
Anyways, Cara 2.01 isn't as good as 1.04, or anywhere close.
I gotta agree. The adv evos need d, and m is almost as needed.
However you can get by with d/sense but you can't get by with move/sense.
Sense is counterable by moving in groups and have the comm drop scan sweeps when needed. Which is the typical marine behavior anyway. I agree cloaking/silenced skuls are fantastic, but you can't risk that if you got some adv evos.
Ohh.... Idea for S&I.
1. D or M
2. D or M.
3. S
OR
1. S
2. D
3. M
those are your 3 options. Defense should never be a last chamber. [...] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally a sensible soul.
Also marines (at the least on my server) ALWAYS get 1 hive locked. You dont need 3 hives to win. You need only MCs and DCs and you can take out any marine team. I prefer MCs first simply because people will be more encouraged to get a 2nd hive before fading/onosing. And seein as many people can get 25 res in under 5 minutes you should have a 2nd hive within 10 minutes of the game and have 3 DCs and 2-3 MCs (I always build 2 chambers at the start of the game before i go hunting mariens).
If you go Onos without DCs your just plain dumb or the marine team really really sucks. Risking 100 res like that is just insane. Regen Onos are nigh invincible until lvl 2 HMGs show up or a lot of lvl 3 LMGs. Fades with celerity are great at hit and runs, skulks the same and with silence they just plain can take out those rambos that always show up. Lerks with Adren can spore like nobody's business.
So people, if you have problems with res hoarders or killing those groups of 4 marines go MC first! I can garuntee the Aliens are tougher to kill on my server with MCs first.
Oh and pandas|RoQ. AmazingAlienEnrique isnt an utter dumb...well...person since these forums are censored, like you seem to imply. You pretty much said what he did just shorter and with out ANY argument what so ever. At least thats what i understand and considering the time i might not be entirley coherent right now. But still. Lighten up.
-Red
I could be wrong though...
I could be wrong though... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, I don't think RoQ ment to reply to you, so don't worry.
We all agree, DC, MC, SC, as per normal.
Kinda sad how it's just like 1.04.
You need to keep your team in a possition where if a Hive gets locked down, you will have the power to get it back.
So that sadly means that you are always going to need DCs first or second.
I would rather drop MC first because it will promote people to get that 2nd hive before they become greedy Onii.
The thing I don't get is why some people give up if they see anything besides DC first. The game isn't over because you can't become a ONOS in 5 mins you know. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
You need to keep your team in a possition where if a Hive gets locked down, you will have the power to get it back.
So that sadly means that you are always going to need DCs first or second.
I would rather drop MC first because it will promote people to get that 2nd hive before they become greedy Onii.
The thing I don't get is why some people give up if they see anything besides DC first. The game isn't over because you can't become a ONOS in 5 mins you know. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thing is, getting a fade before your second hive against a skilled team is a BIG risk.
And being a fade without d chambers against a skilled team is another BIG RISK.
Though me going early fade is rare I've never actually been in a game where I go early fade and we lose; I usually end up taking out several RTs and a couple of marine outposts before they even come close to getting me =3
dc's first is good for early fades but mcs and scs are viable too... they just mean your large investments don't have the same security and you have to play it different, but getting locked down and having no dcs is pretty ick =s
This is especially important when attacking marine fortifications, since the marines will have much more difficulty holding an outpost under continuous pressure from aliens able to hang around in the.vicinity. pandas|ROQ is correct in that D should never be the 3rd chamber, since marines turtling in the 3rd hive will be disastrous and sensory will not help you break in.
M first is ok, but it seems to me it usually boils down to you making a commitment to an early second hive to get D anyway.
My humble opinion is that D first is best on pub servers so early regen fades can take down electrified RTs before the 2nd hive goes up, denying the marines res for the upgrades and heavier weapons they'll need to win the midgame. I hear from a friend that a couple of regen skulks (interesting, huh) can make short work of unguarded electrified RTs as well but I haven't had a chance to try it yet.
I do not agree that carapace is that amazing, since regen is really the killer D ability for the higher lifeforms, unlike 1.04. That said, carapace can be good for the final assaults since you'll probably have forward D chambers to heal at anyway.
As for sensory first, I got **** with Def Chamber first for the 8th time in a row so on the 9th game I dropped a sensory. Some Anal Player tried to kick vote me for that. I dropped the chamber so early in the game that Rines had no counter for it and we won really quickly using cloaked Skulks. They just keep pressure on the rines and continously destroy there Obs Tower (Usually BEFORE it was built).
My point is that Movement, and Sensories are "best" first chambers as they won't be countered until midgame, and at midgame you should have a 2nd hive up and most likely your Defense chambers.
As for sensory first, I got **** with Def Chamber first for the 8th time in a row so on the 9th game I dropped a sensory. Some Anal Player tried to kick vote me for that. I dropped the chamber so early in the game that Rines had no counter for it and we won really quickly using cloaked Skulks. They just keep pressure on the rines and continously destroy there Obs Tower (Usually BEFORE it was built).
My point is that Movement, and Sensories are "best" first chambers as they won't be countered until midgame, and at midgame you should have a 2nd hive up and most likely your Defense chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
... this is a terrible reason... why not just have good teamwork with the best chamber? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
MC and DC are often the "best" choices because they suit the general population's way of playing. Perhaps SC could be equally effective if you changed the way you played, instead of rushing, wait for them to come. Use your brain sometimes instead of your mouth*chomp chomp* <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Cloaking has uses for sure, and a comm can't always scanner sweep. But I hate being "stuck" with sense when trying to gain some ground on aggressive marines.
The best choice is to ask your team what upgrade they'd prefer and give them that, if you're gorge.
Movement chambers don't have quite the same "hold" ability, unless you have a group of good gorges willing to play the heal-spam game.
Some maps seems to be designed for one or the other chamber - eclipse is quite nice for sensory, with many vents where sensories can be hidden. Bast, OTOH, has that roof chamber in feedwater that's just BEGGING for DC's.
Carapace comes first? I thought it was defense chambers. Regen is useful too, and even redemption has its uses.