I am starting to wonder where all of these servers are. I rarely see a marine win when aleins pick SC first. Cloak-wlaking is one of the most effective tools a skulks has. Mix in a few lerks with spikes to remove any stray obs at outlying bases and you have a 1 hive killing machine. SC are most effective when you spread them around, thus forcing the marines to slow down the expansion and move in teams. A cloak-wlak skulk can get right on top of a party of marines and take out1-2 marines even with upgrades and shotties. If they have shotties, all the better because that is 10 res lost if they are not near base. Not only does sensory allow for ninja-style tactics, but it really hurts marine morale over time. Of course, they key to sensory is patience and planning, something lost on most people who cry Defense in the first 2 minutes. You can't simply run at a marines, biting and hope to kil him before he slaps you silly with a shotgun blast. You need to actually time your attacks and 1 or 2 ninja skulks can turn the tide. I don't know how many times I have cloak-walked right past outpost defenses and taken out a TF from a blind spot, or repeatedly done it to take out a phase gate while the rest of the team hits another spot (and thus has the marines worrying about that rather than welding a phase gate). If you can't win as alien, no matter what the chamber right now, you really should think about going back to CS.
When 2.0 first came out, I saw sensory being used as the first chamber all the time. For a start, it's great fun. There was plenty of experimentation with different chamber orders, and that was a Good Thing.
But now we do indeed seem to be back to the bad old days, when a gorge who drops sensory first will often be shouted at by teammates and occasionally even kicked from the server. I was on a server once, as a gorge, when another gorge dropped a sensory chamber first. Immediately the whining started, and I replied "What's the problem? SC is great." The admin assumed this meant I was admitting to the awful crime and started a vote to have me kicked.
I agree that the D-M-S (or M-D-S, but less often) mindset is coming back. This is bad. We should be prepared to try new things and learn new tactics. I think SC is a good first chamber, the only problem is that it effectively only has two upgrades, as "pheromones" is useless.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Sep 14 2003, 12:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 14 2003, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> M-D-S can work in 2.0 but try it in 2.01e and good marines will hand your rectum to you. It can work, don't get me wrong, but if you get trapped in a 2 hive lockdown, you've got no insurance. Oni with just movement arn't something to be feared; fast teched marines will mow them down even with LMGs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe Movement > Defence...
Why? Try fighting a good clan with teh celerity or silence..
SC first is great. But it has to be fast, I quite often see a team go without up grades in order to get more res towers and the second have as fast as possible. That is fine with DC and with MC but with SC that gives the marines time to get more res and with that more obs countering the entire chamber. But if the team if there are people willing to run as fast as they can and put sc down quickly the aliens will get massive RFK speeding up the second hive and it will slow the marines down in the critical first 3 minutes as they try to counter. But if the aliens wait or some of them res-**** this will fail miserably as any descent comm will cover the map with obs as soon as the first cloaked attack happens.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Sep 14 2003, 05:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Sep 14 2003, 05:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>The difference between AU-Scorpion and me is that AU-Scorpion thinks about public games and I think about reg games.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It could be more easily argued that I think about regular games and you think about clan matches. (Though I'd like to think I keep an open mind into the workings of the clan community. Last I hear a buddy o' mine said that the DMS system was pretty common in clan play.)
The word "regular" tends to connotate commonness and public play is far more common than clan skirmishes.
That said, I feel our differences go a wee bit deeper than this.
<!--QuoteBegin--AU-Scorpion+Sep 15 2003, 03:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AU-Scorpion @ Sep 15 2003, 03:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Sep 14 2003, 05:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Sep 14 2003, 05:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>The difference between AU-Scorpion and me is that AU-Scorpion thinks about public games and I think about reg games.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It could be more easily argued that I think about regular games and you think about clan matches. (Though I'd like to think I keep an open mind into the workings of the clan community. Last I hear a buddy o' mine said that the DMS system was pretty common in clan play.)
The word "regular" tends to connotate commonness and public play is far more common than clan skirmishes.
That said, I feel our differences go a wee bit deeper than this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dunno what the hell Ollj runs through his ears, but it sure ain't clan matches, let me be the first to tell you.
Out of the few clan matches I've seen sensory used at hives 1 or 2 (like 1% of the total clan games I've played), none of them won.
Fact is, sensory blows, and it could despiratly use an upgrade for the bigger alien classes to use and be offensive with.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i dont count "rush .... now" , "theyre in ..." and "omg you ..." , "comm drop a..." to talking.
Im thinking about DISCUSIONS and looking for each other while moving around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL! Good point. So by discussions you mean people just talking about things in general? I've seen some of those servers. Seems that people are more chatty on voicecomm though!
I was just on redphive 3 (with auto-electrified RT's and TF's, which are starting to suck) playing as aliens when sc got dropped first and mc got dropped second. Needless to say, most people were pretty mad, but it almost seemed easier than the d-m-s system. The marines were good, they had a decent comm and they worked together but the game was over in 15 minutes and was very fast-paced and fun.
If people would acctually try to work out some strategies with s-m-d, m-s-d or, s-d-m then I think you would see alot more combinations being used. But people are just to set in their ways and the old, dependable tactics that d-m-s gives. Those old methods are good for clan matches but for pub matches, I don't understand why everyone gets mad, try something new and different, go for sensory for a change.
Just found out a good strat against DMS, sadly you get vote ejected on publics for even triing it. The main part of this strat is not building an armory for the first 3 minutes. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> When you have no armory your marines begin using their brains, stay together and secure resnodes fast instead of humping and ramboing to death. At least most of them try.
When your base gets attacked build a tf and electrifyx resnodes, but build no armory. When they come cloaked build an obs and phasegates, but no armory. When they have strong defenses build one (or 2) more IPs but no armory.
When you have 3-4 resnodes just build the armory, sadly you need it for all upgrades. Now you have to upgrade the armory imidiately to get grenade lauchers against lerks and walls of lame.
You should have that 4 resnodes quickly and without big problems if you dont get flamed to death. Aliens with defense first have one big weak spot. quickly expanding marines. Its no big loss loosing thoose resnodes, you already took a big advantage in the game by an early res boost.
I'm ok with no armory, just so as long as it's because the comm is obviously building other things, rather than being a n00b. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think 2 skulks per LMG mag is a fair estimate for a so-so player.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens with defense first have one big weak spot. quickly expanding marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ollj apart from that strat being somewhat insane (if you're playing on servers where you have to not build an armoury to get your marines out into the feild then those arn't good servers), defense is an excellent counter for rapid marine expansion. Skulks can benefit from cara or regen, but the real power lies in an early Lerk and Fade. With regen these guys are feindishly hard to get rid of and they will constantly be harrassing your forces. D-M-S emerged as the counter to rapid marine expansion; we tried sens and mov but neither works as well. Rapid marine expansion means fortified positions, electrified nodes and attempted 2 hive lockdowns. That means you need upgrades that allow you to take on those scenarios. Defense ends up on top: it's best for taking out fortifications and it gives all your team a great boost. You want mov second because now your Fades, gorges and Lerks can all have adren, whilst your skulks can grab silence or celerity combined with regen and your Oni can have regen with celerity or adren.
Aliens with defense first are not weak against quickly expanding marines. Aliens with sensory first will be very weak against expanding marines, and whilst movement aliens are good against the marines themselves, the structures are still tough to take down. That, in the end, means that def will end up on top.
To he who suggested sensory giving +10 to +30% to attack:
Bad idea. BAD BAD BAD. Think about it for a second. skulks with +30% attack would appear BEFORE level one armor in games if this were to be done. This means skulks would basically be killing marines in oen bite. If they get in close enough for anything, BAM. Even para kills would work since you'd do like 20 damage per parasite...crazyness man.
I think its a nice idea, but it'd just get flamed out of any real in-game consideration.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cheez!+Sep 15 2003, 11:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cheez! @ Sep 15 2003, 11:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To he who suggested sensory giving +10 to +30% to attack:
Bad idea. BAD BAD BAD. Think about it for a second. skulks with +30% attack would appear BEFORE level one armor in games if this were to be done. This means skulks would basically be killing marines in oen bite. If they get in close enough for anything, BAM. Even para kills would work since you'd do like 20 damage per parasite...crazyness man.
I think its a nice idea, but it'd just get flamed out of any real in-game consideration. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude.... First off, there's no guarentee that lv. 1 armor will come before lv. 3 attack upgrades.
Next, skulks will still be really easy to kill, unless they can get in close. (Hence the sensory chamber)
Next, skulks would still kill marines in 2 hits, untill they get lv. 2 armor.
Next, parasite would only deal 13 instead of 10.
Next, learn to do basic math and give real feed back.
<!--QuoteBegin--cybrangl+Sep 15 2003, 09:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cybrangl @ Sep 15 2003, 09:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am starting to wonder where all of these servers are. I rarely see a marine win when aleins pick SC first. Cloak-wlaking is one of the most effective tools a skulks has. Mix in a few lerks with spikes to remove any stray obs at outlying bases and you have a 1 hive killing machine. SC are most effective when you spread them around, thus forcing the marines to slow down the expansion and move in teams. A cloak-wlak skulk can get right on top of a party of marines and take out1-2 marines even with upgrades and shotties. If they have shotties, all the better because that is 10 res lost if they are not near base. Not only does sensory allow for ninja-style tactics, but it really hurts marine morale over time. Of course, they key to sensory is patience and planning, something lost on most people who cry Defense in the first 2 minutes. You can't simply run at a marines, biting and hope to kil him before he slaps you silly with a shotgun blast. You need to actually time your attacks and 1 or 2 ninja skulks can turn the tide. I don't know how many times I have cloak-walked right past outpost defenses and taken out a TF from a blind spot, or repeatedly done it to take out a phase gate while the rest of the team hits another spot (and thus has the marines worrying about that rather than welding a phase gate). If you can't win as alien, no matter what the chamber right now, you really should think about going back to CS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Come to my server, you'll see.
<!--QuoteBegin--Geronimo+Sep 15 2003, 11:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geronimo @ Sep 15 2003, 11:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Sep 14 2003, 12:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 14 2003, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> M-D-S can work in 2.0 but try it in 2.01e and good marines will hand your rectum to you. It can work, don't get me wrong, but if you get trapped in a 2 hive lockdown, you've got no insurance. Oni with just movement arn't something to be feared; fast teched marines will mow them down even with LMGs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe Movement > Defence...
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. MC's are starting to become under used again. I think they need to boost celerity again (even if not all the way to orginal 2.0 levels) PLEASE.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mouse+Sep 15 2003, 01:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mouse @ Sep 15 2003, 01:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually Ryo, we pulled off a first hive sense win against stf on Sunday. If used properly, sensory is the ultimate containment tool. It requires a fast expansion followed by well co-ordinated ambushes at the approches to the marine base. This leads to economic attrition, the marines have to spend money on shotties, motion tracking, forward obs. While sensory is easy to counter, it is also expensive to counter. Countering MCs or DCs just requires some investment at the armslab, countering SCs requires the aforementioned forward observatories on top of the armslab upgrades.
In short, SC first requires far more co-ordination than using any of the other chambers first. As a result you won't see it on pubs much unless the aliens are feeling cocky. SCs also have one other thing going for them, they are unexpected.
With that said, I prefer movement first <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good choice at the end :-p
Ok forlorn you think I'm not being serious? I'm constantly surrounded by pople yelling that aliens rule and marines suck, and you want them to be able to increase they're attack power? Think about what all the pubs would be like.
-constant alien stacking (as if we don't already) -constant moaning about dying in 2 bites till lv2 armor, people already do actually <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> -I bet I could kill a average pub marine pretty easily with regen and a 13 dmg parasite, heck I do it with regular 10dmg. -turrets would be useless to onos, slightly less to fades, but stil pretty bad. Doing 100 damage to a turret or 120 to a turret (and getting nothing but a tickle back for onos) would make people not even want to bother using turrets or even commanding for that matter. -marine stuctures are already easy enough to kill, except for maybe a skulk vs an RT but that's for a reason.
I honestly don't even know why people think aliens are overpowered....they die in one shotgun shot to the face until like 8 minutes into that game :/ *sigh*
Anyhow I just think that with all the lamerz out there who are convinced that aliens are too uber to kill, an offencive damage upgrade would just push them over the edge.
PS: Basic math isnt the issue here, i couldn't remember the parasite damage anyhow. And wow it does 96 damage not 100, not bad for a FREE skulk + 2 res!
I still think sens is best. **** all you want. I don't care how fast you are with celerity or how strong you are with carpace. They can't hit what they can't see.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 16 2003, 01:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 16 2003, 01:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still think sens is best. **** all you want. I don't care how fast you are with celerity or how strong you are with carpace. They can't hit what they can't see. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh man, just played a game against a team that did sensory first. We dominated them, absolutely destroyed them. Two obs up at the start, constant scanning when needed, we destroyed their sensory network in no time. They didn't stand a chance.
Well you have to do it right. Sens near their base before they get observatory out. Skulks run in and surround marines before they know they are in the base. Marines all die, whatever marines were building dies. IPs die. Comm dies. Aliens win. And supposing they had put up observatory first in marine start, have you ever tried killing an alien hive when the skulks you are trying to fight are invisible? It ain't so easy.
Aliens can't be stupid though. Despite what people think, it isn't a 'n00b' choice. It is for people that know what they are doing. Take a look at the clan thread. Sensory is how they win. That's what they were complaining about.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 16 2003, 02:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 16 2003, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well you have to do it right. Sens near their base before they get observatory out. Skulks run in and surround marines before they know they are in the base. Marines all die, whatever marines were building dies. IPs die. Comm dies. Aliens win. And supposing they had put up observatory first in marine start, have you ever tried killing an alien hive when the skulks you are trying to fight are invisible? It ain't so easy.
Aliens can't be stupid though. Despite what people think, it isn't a 'n00b' choice. It is for people that know what they are doing. Take a look at the clan thread. Sensory is how they win. That's what they were complaining about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL!
Let me just give some pointers:
If you can build a sesnory chamber outside of a marine base, the marines really deserve to lose. Killing sensory aliens inside of their hive is actually one of the easier spots in the map. Simply because, when aliens spawn in, they don't spawn in cloaked... meaning the marines get to see the alien. The marine's then shoot him, keeping him from cloaking, and he dies. Better yet, the comm does one scanner sweep, reveals the sensory chamber, which dies in 2 LMG clips, and then the aliens are screwed.
And about your rediculous comment of clans using sensory chambers: I dunno where this kid plays his scrimms, but they can't be too good if they are using sensory chambers... and anyhow, what this kid is complaining about isn't sensory chambers, but the new cloaking upgrade of allowing aliens to walk cloaked.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 16 2003, 08:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 16 2003, 08:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well you have to do it right. Sens near their base before they get observatory out. Skulks run in and surround marines before they know they are in the base. Marines all die, whatever marines were building dies. IPs die. Comm dies. Aliens win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> PS that tactic is also known as ZERG RUSH KEKEKEKEKE ^________^ except without teh invisibilitay
EDIT: My point is, it's basically a rush game=boring, and makes people quit. Play it again with the skilled players spread evenly and see how it goes, oh whoops now they were actually moving outside their base and intercepted your attempt at making a sensory near their base.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cheez!+Sep 16 2003, 12:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cheez! @ Sep 16 2003, 12:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> PS: Basic math isnt the issue here, i couldn't remember the parasite damage anyhow. And wow it does 96 damage not 100, not bad for a FREE skulk + 2 res! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude you don't get it. Basic math is the issue. Instead of getting +50% more HP(carapace) is dealing 30% more unfair? Or moving 30% faster? Or being completely silent? Or invisible? This is the issue. It needs to be good compared to other upgrades, and not be better, which I think it fits in nicely.
A a FREE skulk + 2 res isn't so free considering you need 3 sensory chambers to get that ability. Not only that, but your next set of upgrades don't come till hive 2...
Also, you don't realize that a skulk will still be really easy to kill.. and the skulk will be able to kill you easily as well. It should be a balanced situation.
I just found a strat strat kills DMS on publics and on experienced reg-servers. Its just some unique strat and i need too find its weak spots first. Well basically it includes; not dropping the first armory before you have 5 resource towers.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cheez!+Sep 16 2003, 11:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cheez! @ Sep 16 2003, 11:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Doing 100 damage to a turret or 120 to a turret (and getting nothing but a tickle back for onos) would make people not even want to bother using turrets <b>or even commanding for that matter. </b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL
<!--QuoteBegin--Align+Sep 16 2003, 04:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Sep 16 2003, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 16 2003, 08:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 16 2003, 08:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well you have to do it right. Sens near their base before they get observatory out. Skulks run in and surround marines before they know they are in the base. Marines all die, whatever marines were building dies. IPs die. Comm dies. Aliens win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> PS that tactic is also known as ZERG RUSH KEKEKEKEKE ^________^ except without teh invisibilitay
EDIT: My point is, it's basically a rush game=boring, and makes people quit. Play it again with the skilled players spread evenly and see how it goes, oh whoops now they were actually moving outside their base and intercepted your attempt at making a sensory near their base. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> not boring the first time or two ^^ in fact, it's quite exciting for the rushers, especially for that one guy who pwns half the team and more <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
We have had some great success with marine containment as aliens with sensory. Back when practicing on ns_tanith for the CAL game we had some great scrims when we went sensory. But it turned out to be too much of a risk, it either worked really well, or it went really bad, and we didn't want to take that chance.
I still think it is a viable strategy though, with some refinement.
Comments
SC are most effective when you spread them around, thus forcing the marines to slow down the expansion and move in teams. A cloak-wlak skulk can get right on top of a party of marines and take out1-2 marines even with upgrades and shotties. If they have shotties, all the better because that is 10 res lost if they are not near base.
Not only does sensory allow for ninja-style tactics, but it really hurts marine morale over time. Of course, they key to sensory is patience and planning, something lost on most people who cry Defense in the first 2 minutes. You can't simply run at a marines, biting and hope to kil him before he slaps you silly with a shotgun blast. You need to actually time your attacks and 1 or 2 ninja skulks can turn the tide.
I don't know how many times I have cloak-walked right past outpost defenses and taken out a TF from a blind spot, or repeatedly done it to take out a phase gate while the rest of the team hits another spot (and thus has the marines worrying about that rather than welding a phase gate).
If you can't win as alien, no matter what the chamber right now, you really should think about going back to CS.
But now we do indeed seem to be back to the bad old days, when a gorge who drops sensory first will often be shouted at by teammates and occasionally even kicked from the server. I was on a server once, as a gorge, when another gorge dropped a sensory chamber first. Immediately the whining started, and I replied "What's the problem? SC is great." The admin assumed this meant I was admitting to the awful crime and started a vote to have me kicked.
I agree that the D-M-S (or M-D-S, but less often) mindset is coming back. This is bad. We should be prepared to try new things and learn new tactics. I think SC is a good first chamber, the only problem is that it effectively only has two upgrades, as "pheromones" is useless.
I believe Movement > Defence...
Why? Try fighting a good clan with teh celerity or silence..
But it has to be fast, I quite often see a team go without up grades in order to get more res towers and the second have as fast as possible. That is fine with DC and with MC but with SC that gives the marines time to get more res and with that more obs countering the entire chamber. But if the team if there are people willing to run as fast as they can and put sc down quickly the aliens will get massive RFK speeding up the second hive and it will slow the marines down in the critical first 3 minutes as they try to counter. But if the aliens wait or some of them res-**** this will fail miserably as any descent comm will cover the map with obs as soon as the first cloaked attack happens.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It could be more easily argued that I think about regular games and you think about clan matches. (Though I'd like to think I keep an open mind into the workings of the clan community. Last I hear a buddy o' mine said that the DMS system was pretty common in clan play.)
The word "regular" tends to connotate commonness and public play is far more common than clan skirmishes.
That said, I feel our differences go a wee bit deeper than this.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It could be more easily argued that I think about regular games and you think about clan matches. (Though I'd like to think I keep an open mind into the workings of the clan community. Last I hear a buddy o' mine said that the DMS system was pretty common in clan play.)
The word "regular" tends to connotate commonness and public play is far more common than clan skirmishes.
That said, I feel our differences go a wee bit deeper than this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno what the hell Ollj runs through his ears, but it sure ain't clan matches, let me be the first to tell you.
Out of the few clan matches I've seen sensory used at hives 1 or 2 (like 1% of the total clan games I've played), none of them won.
Fact is, sensory blows, and it could despiratly use an upgrade for the bigger alien classes to use and be offensive with.
i dont count
"rush .... now" , "theyre in ..."
and
"omg you ..." , "comm drop a..."
to talking.
Im thinking about DISCUSIONS and looking for each other while moving around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL! Good point. So by discussions you mean people just talking about things in general? I've seen some of those servers. Seems that people are more chatty on voicecomm though!
If people would acctually try to work out some strategies with s-m-d, m-s-d or, s-d-m then I think you would see alot more combinations being used. But people are just to set in their ways and the old, dependable tactics that d-m-s gives. Those old methods are good for clan matches but for pub matches, I don't understand why everyone gets mad, try something new and different, go for sensory for a change.
DCs on the other hand are stable, and can work well with most evolves using most tatics. The over all effect of DC is greater than SC.
The main part of this strat is not building an armory for the first 3 minutes. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
When you have no armory your marines begin using their brains, stay together and secure resnodes fast instead of humping and ramboing to death.
At least most of them try.
When your base gets attacked build a tf and electrifyx resnodes, but build no armory.
When they come cloaked build an obs and phasegates, but no armory.
When they have strong defenses build one (or 2) more IPs but no armory.
When you have 3-4 resnodes just build the armory, sadly you need it for all upgrades.
Now you have to upgrade the armory imidiately to get grenade lauchers against lerks and walls of lame.
You should have that 4 resnodes quickly and without big problems if you dont get flamed to death. Aliens with defense first have one big weak spot. quickly expanding marines.
Its no big loss loosing thoose resnodes, you already took a big advantage in the game by an early res boost.
I think 2 skulks per LMG mag is a fair estimate for a so-so player.
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Ollj apart from that strat being somewhat insane (if you're playing on servers where you have to not build an armoury to get your marines out into the feild then those arn't good servers), defense is an excellent counter for rapid marine expansion. Skulks can benefit from cara or regen, but the real power lies in an early Lerk and Fade. With regen these guys are feindishly hard to get rid of and they will constantly be harrassing your forces. D-M-S emerged as the counter to rapid marine expansion; we tried sens and mov but neither works as well. Rapid marine expansion means fortified positions, electrified nodes and attempted 2 hive lockdowns. That means you need upgrades that allow you to take on those scenarios. Defense ends up on top: it's best for taking out fortifications and it gives all your team a great boost. You want mov second because now your Fades, gorges and Lerks can all have adren, whilst your skulks can grab silence or celerity combined with regen and your Oni can have regen with celerity or adren.
Aliens with defense first are not weak against quickly expanding marines. Aliens with sensory first will be very weak against expanding marines, and whilst movement aliens are good against the marines themselves, the structures are still tough to take down. That, in the end, means that def will end up on top.
Bad idea. BAD BAD BAD. Think about it for a second. skulks with +30% attack would appear BEFORE level one armor in games if this were to be done. This means skulks would basically be killing marines in oen bite. If they get in close enough for anything, BAM. Even para kills would work since you'd do like 20 damage per parasite...crazyness man.
I think its a nice idea, but it'd just get flamed out of any real in-game consideration.
Bad idea. BAD BAD BAD. Think about it for a second. skulks with +30% attack would appear BEFORE level one armor in games if this were to be done. This means skulks would basically be killing marines in oen bite. If they get in close enough for anything, BAM. Even para kills would work since you'd do like 20 damage per parasite...crazyness man.
I think its a nice idea, but it'd just get flamed out of any real in-game consideration. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude.... First off, there's no guarentee that lv. 1 armor will come before lv. 3 attack upgrades.
Next, skulks will still be really easy to kill, unless they can get in close. (Hence the sensory chamber)
Next, skulks would still kill marines in 2 hits, untill they get lv. 2 armor.
Next, parasite would only deal 13 instead of 10.
Next, learn to do basic math and give real feed back.
75 + 30% = 96 damage a bite. Thats still two bites.
Granted the bonus damage isn't really needed but your arguement is flawed because your numbers are wrong.
and parasites do 10 a hit. so with 30% more damage its a whopping 13.
SC are most effective when you spread them around, thus forcing the marines to slow down the expansion and move in teams. A cloak-wlak skulk can get right on top of a party of marines and take out1-2 marines even with upgrades and shotties. If they have shotties, all the better because that is 10 res lost if they are not near base.
Not only does sensory allow for ninja-style tactics, but it really hurts marine morale over time. Of course, they key to sensory is patience and planning, something lost on most people who cry Defense in the first 2 minutes. You can't simply run at a marines, biting and hope to kil him before he slaps you silly with a shotgun blast. You need to actually time your attacks and 1 or 2 ninja skulks can turn the tide.
I don't know how many times I have cloak-walked right past outpost defenses and taken out a TF from a blind spot, or repeatedly done it to take out a phase gate while the rest of the team hits another spot (and thus has the marines worrying about that rather than welding a phase gate).
If you can't win as alien, no matter what the chamber right now, you really should think about going back to CS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come to my server, you'll see.
I believe Movement > Defence...
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I agree. MC's are starting to become under used again. I think they need to boost celerity again (even if not all the way to orginal 2.0 levels) PLEASE.
<!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> CAW!
It requires a fast expansion followed by well co-ordinated ambushes at the approches to the marine base. This leads to economic attrition, the marines have to spend money on shotties, motion tracking, forward obs. While sensory is easy to counter, it is also expensive to counter.
Countering MCs or DCs just requires some investment at the armslab, countering SCs requires the aforementioned forward observatories on top of the armslab upgrades.
In short, SC first requires far more co-ordination than using any of the other chambers first. As a result you won't see it on pubs much unless the aliens are feeling cocky. SCs also have one other thing going for them, they are unexpected.
With that said, I prefer movement first <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good choice at the end :-p
-constant alien stacking (as if we don't already)
-constant moaning about dying in 2 bites till lv2 armor, people already do actually <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
-I bet I could kill a average pub marine pretty easily with regen and a 13 dmg parasite, heck I do it with regular 10dmg.
-turrets would be useless to onos, slightly less to fades, but stil pretty bad. Doing 100 damage to a turret or 120 to a turret (and getting nothing but a tickle back for onos) would make people not even want to bother using turrets or even commanding for that matter.
-marine stuctures are already easy enough to kill, except for maybe a skulk vs an RT but that's for a reason.
I honestly don't even know why people think aliens are overpowered....they die in one shotgun shot to the face until like 8 minutes into that game :/ *sigh*
Anyhow I just think that with all the lamerz out there who are convinced that aliens are too uber to kill, an offencive damage upgrade would just push them over the edge.
PS: Basic math isnt the issue here, i couldn't remember the parasite damage anyhow. And wow it does 96 damage not 100, not bad for a FREE skulk + 2 res!
Oh man, just played a game against a team that did sensory first. We dominated them, absolutely destroyed them. Two obs up at the start, constant scanning when needed, we destroyed their sensory network in no time. They didn't stand a chance.
Aliens can't be stupid though. Despite what people think, it isn't a 'n00b' choice. It is for people that know what they are doing. Take a look at the clan thread. Sensory is how they win. That's what they were complaining about.
Aliens can't be stupid though. Despite what people think, it isn't a 'n00b' choice. It is for people that know what they are doing. Take a look at the clan thread. Sensory is how they win. That's what they were complaining about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL!
Let me just give some pointers:
If you can build a sesnory chamber outside of a marine base, the marines really deserve to lose. Killing sensory aliens inside of their hive is actually one of the easier spots in the map. Simply because, when aliens spawn in, they don't spawn in cloaked... meaning the marines get to see the alien. The marine's then shoot him, keeping him from cloaking, and he dies. Better yet, the comm does one scanner sweep, reveals the sensory chamber, which dies in 2 LMG clips, and then the aliens are screwed.
And about your rediculous comment of clans using sensory chambers: I dunno where this kid plays his scrimms, but they can't be too good if they are using sensory chambers... and anyhow, what this kid is complaining about isn't sensory chambers, but the new cloaking upgrade of allowing aliens to walk cloaked.
Anyhow, you were wrong on all of your accounts.
PS that tactic is also known as ZERG RUSH KEKEKEKEKE ^________^ except without teh invisibilitay
EDIT: My point is, it's basically a rush game=boring, and makes people quit.
Play it again with the skilled players spread evenly and see how it goes, oh whoops now they were actually moving outside their base and intercepted your attempt at making a sensory near their base.
Dude you don't get it. Basic math is the issue. Instead of getting +50% more HP(carapace) is dealing 30% more unfair? Or moving 30% faster? Or being completely silent? Or invisible? This is the issue. It needs to be good compared to other upgrades, and not be better, which I think it fits in nicely.
A a FREE skulk + 2 res isn't so free considering you need 3 sensory chambers to get that ability. Not only that, but your next set of upgrades don't come till hive 2...
Also, you don't realize that a skulk will still be really easy to kill.. and the skulk will be able to kill you easily as well. It should be a balanced situation.
Its just some unique strat and i need too find its weak spots first.
Well basically it includes; not dropping the first armory before you have 5 resource towers.
LOL
PS that tactic is also known as ZERG RUSH KEKEKEKEKE ^________^ except without teh invisibilitay
EDIT: My point is, it's basically a rush game=boring, and makes people quit.
Play it again with the skilled players spread evenly and see how it goes, oh whoops now they were actually moving outside their base and intercepted your attempt at making a sensory near their base. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not boring the first time or two ^^ in fact, it's quite exciting for the rushers, especially for that one guy who pwns half the team and more <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still think it is a viable strategy though, with some refinement.