You know, for the first hive I give my team the choice. "Mov, or Sen. " The reason for not dropping a Def first is because of the rez hogs. You know who they are. People that spend the whole game saving rez so they can rambo as an Oni.
You can spot those people because they are the ones screaming about Def chambers first 10 seconds in the game. By not dropping a Def chamber you are telling them, "Go ahead and Onos, but it'll suck untill 2nd or 3rd hive." Some of these guys still go Onos, but some will use their rez on something constructive. (A hive or rez nozzle)
Most of the loss's I'v seen lately are not because of def first, but because of how selfish some of the players are about their rez. They havn't realized that by helping your team EVERYONE can get the chance to be something besides a skulk or gorge.
I usually spend most of the game as gorge but regen helps me loads when I accidentally bump into a marine while building... if you can just dodge enough they have severe trouble killing you with lmgs ^^
I'll admit I prefer players who don't be greedy but I'd hardly go out of my way to spite them; it's a game after all and as long as you enjoy yourself, win or lose does it really matter that theres a bunch of easily ignorable jerks in your team? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Sep 14 2003, 03:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Sep 14 2003, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> --- In 1.04 Defense-Movement-Sensory was what the aliens always built, because it worked. LIE. it wasnt always build and it only works cus of newbish teamplay. sens first owned DMS on 1.04 when skulks behaved correctly ! and it was hard to counter ! movement first owned with 4 early gorges, gorge rushing, sadly this was way too rare.
---- If your team has gone movement or sensory first, your chances of breaking a 2 hive lockdown are slim indeed. If your team has movement ot sensory first marines normaly never achieve a 2 hive lockdown or are able to hold it because it gets detected too soon.
---- ...Fades and Oni by a factor of at least 2. funneh. Fades profit the least from defense chambers in general. Onos the second least, lerks are best with defense first. But thats just a theory in "utopic gameplay".
---- blah blah 2 hive lockdown... your team obviously fails in basic teamwork, ambushes, guarding and gorge healing.
---- Free scans negate the inbuilt ability of sens chambers they aint free. and they only nullify cloaking. . <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Slow down buddy....
1. It WAS built because it DID work and was more capable as a whole than sensory or movement first. Where sensory and movement required finesse to extract their full potential, defense was always there. You could inadvertently move the mouse wrong and kill yourself skulking with celerity, you could accidentally twitch and decloak with sensory, but no matter what you did you'd always take a few more bullets to kill with carapace.
I give ya that it wasn't always built.... it was built more often than not.
Saying that 1.04 sensory was hard to counter is hogwash. Alot of the time (if you were only blind in one eye) you could still see a cloaked alien. The other sensory upgrades were laughable as a hive one ability.
2. "funneh. Fades profit the least from defense chambers in general. Onos the second least." Are you talking from a life percentage standpoint? The damage tanking capability of the onos and fade are increase the least percentage-wise...however one must also consider exactly how much life that percentage stands for. An example could be... 30% of 70 is actually less than 15% of 500.
Regeneration lends to the fade's hit and run style and is in several ways more useful than metabolize..one being that it uses no energy freeing up more energy for important things like fighting. Regeneration assists the onos more than any other alien, the huge amount of HP healed per tick plus the speed of the ticks make the onos pretty much immune to small turret farms and one or two LMG marines.
As minor or "noobish" as an ability may appear, if it allows the average "Joe Blow" player to kill a second marine when normally that could only get one....it can be considered a 100% increase in effectiveness.
3. "your team obviously fails in teamwork, ambushes, guarding and gorge healing"
One way to interpret this statement is that of a loose flame based on the ignorance of the quoted poster's team's status and abilities in conjuction with the overall ability of the opposing team.
Things happen in a game, players get lucky, players suddenly realise their potential. The marine team "if working correctly" is a formidable enemy even to a well played and highly skilled alien team....as it should be.
Picking defense as a hive one chamber is a precaution just as the marines setting up an upgrading standard weapons is a precaution. Yes, both sides can win without it, they have the capability. They are simply doing everything they can to make sure that if things get tough, they'll have a better chance in any given fight. The marines' fight being one of bases, lockdowns, and seiges... the aliens one or hives and annihilation.
4. "they aint free. and they only nullify cloaking"
A. Technically they are since observatory energy costs no resources directly. The observatory its self costs resources, and energy is aquired stored while not in use up to the cap which allows for multiple "pings" from one observatory when normally only one is needed unless a seige is occuring.
Commanders who have recieved work of a sensory first hive normally build multiple observatory platforms and are easily able to counteract sensory chambers entirely via hotkeyed observatories and aggressive tactics.
B. "they only nullify cloaking" That's kinda the point. Scanner sweeps are not devastating to carapaced skulks waiting in ambush...in fact... the odds are about the same sweep or no. But to a hive 1 cloaked skulks... there's trouble since the skulk has no assured defense.
Movement first is still viable, but it demands that the second hive go up soon and it isn't as effective against two hive lockdowns. We might see it first more if it had a better field function. The energy boost isn't that great, so you almost never see them outside of hives.
It's not so much that sensory flat out sucks, but rather that it can be easily countered and the upgrades aren't necessary to keep up with marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know, for the first hive I give my team the choice. "Mov, or Sen. " The reason for not dropping a Def first is because of the rez hogs. You know who they are. People that spend the whole game saving rez so they can rambo as an Oni.
You can spot those people because they are the ones screaming about Def chambers first 10 seconds in the game. By not dropping a Def chamber you are telling them, "Go ahead and Onos, but it'll suck untill 2nd or 3rd hive." Some of these guys still go Onos, but some will use their rez on something constructive. (A hive or rez nozzle)
Most of the loss's I'v seen lately are not because of def first, but because of how selfish some of the players are about their rez. They havn't realized that by helping your team EVERYONE can get the chance to be something besides a skulk or gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>The difference between AU-Scorpion and me is that AU-Scorpion thinks about public games and I think about reg games.</b>
Public games having people with a variety of experience were one good player can kill 1/3rd of the unexperienced players of the oposite team at once. On reg games all players have the same game experience and know each other a little better. Theres 5 times more comunication and theyre sharing the same experiences and strategys.
The special thing about servers with regular players is, they focused themselfes on some kinds of behaviour:
regs: CSish: I know one server were most people are really experienced in CS, they play really good offensive and expansive, you rarely see them building bigger turret farms. They have a lack of gorges sometimes. When they attack they all attack together. TFCish: I know one server that plays realy werid/unique strategys fast switching between attack and fortifiing. Sometimes they bloody fail, but its hella funny, sometimes they rock, they have average teamwork and great ambushes. DODish: Then theres the defensive pushing forward server, 2-3 big fortifications epic battles, sometimes great teamwork and awfull pings with all players in one room. The best chamber order depends on the players mood (shall we rush? mkay.....)
publics: Then there are public games. Rarely you see more than 1/3 of one team at one location, everyone runs around alone without saying a word or caring for others. Behaviour is mixed, DMC is the best choice most times.
Regulars sound great! Damn, the CSish and TFCish servers sounds fun. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, I think there are plenty of middle ground servers, which aren't the pub utopias described as regulars, but aren't teamworkless rambolands where no one talks. In fact the no one talks thing is an exageration IMO, that can't be very common. To me, it seems like there is always people talking, and often there will be someone whining/talking about the team's strategy or next move.
Sensory is easily the best chamber against marines in my opinion but it is also easily the worst chamber against buildings. It's easy weakness against buildings is naturally exploited by the style marines play especially on pubs in building turret farms around the place. In wars though against a shotgun rush or a building weak strategy that the marines use a sensory chamber in the right spot early on is by far the best defence. Also if you are going to rush the marines in return I'd prefer to have movement up first as the celerity and silence offer greater advanatages than a def to a skulk. Personally I like to try leave building any upgrade chambers early on until I know what the marines are going to do. In saying that while movement offers great advantages to a skulk; an onos with regen is the most game turning unit in the game and can be achieved in 7-8 minutes even at 1 hive. LMS marines against an onos with regen are virtually useless unless there is 5 or 6 of them in one spot and the onos is stuck. Turret farms going down to a regen onos very quickly as he can just target the tf and not worry about the turrets. While the DMS is the easiest strategy to use for a team with less than great teamwork and probably the best to use on pubs, there are situations in which the other chambers first offer greater advantages.
If youre talking chamber area lockdowns then Id put em at:
Movement. Most expensive, most effective. (50 res plus for proper lockdown) Defense. - - (20 res plus for proper lockdown) Sensory. Least expensive, least effective. (10 res pray to god ;p)
hehe... pub games where u DONT rush marine spawn.. but rather camp OUTSIDE all exits... gorge one at a time.. dropping mass o chambers... then get a sensory up that reaches into the marine base.... HEHEHEHE
You know what my suggestion is? Maybe gorges should be able to recycle structures. This would involve a res loss (you wouldn't get all your res back) and more importantly it would take time. If you recycled all of a certain type of upgrade chamber (eg: you recycled all your d's), you could then place a new type of chamber!
This would allow aliens to change tactics without having to secure more hives. Thus they could change tactics to respond to the marines, instead of having them set in stone, dictated by the first type of chamber they created.
Obviously the process would consume time and res, that would be the price.
But imagine this scenario: The marines have a hive (or two) locked down. They are too lazy to go and finish the game quickly, but the aliens are unable to make an impression on the huge turret farm because they chose sensory first. The gorges then start recycling all the sc's, and eventually replace them with dc's. The marines should have used this opportunity to attack, but after a while they find themselves having to fight off cara'd and redeeming aliens!
Recycling of alien structures has been suggested before (for other reasons) and the main problem brought up was that of lamer gorges. IMO the 'troll factor' is one we should try and let the server admins deal with, rather than limiting the potential to improve the game for everyone else.
<!--QuoteBegin--SDJASON+Sep 14 2003, 07:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJASON @ Sep 14 2003, 07:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> hehe... pub games where u DONT rush marine spawn.. but rather camp OUTSIDE all exits... gorge one at a time.. dropping mass o chambers... then get a sensory up that reaches into the marine base.... HEHEHEHE
Marines get totally ****ed
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then they have an stupid commander.
Most good commanders when they see sense build an observatory, you will never cloak walk into the base of a good commander period.
However you can massacre marines out in the field. The problem is you often won't be able to stop them before they get to hives or whatever. Once they lockdown a hive or two, you're essentially screwed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When they do early attacks (like shootgun rushes) build DC first. When they fortify their bases early build SC first. When they take many Resnodes quickly build MC first. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ollj this makes absolutly no sense! How is DC going to help you against a shotgun rush? In fact, sensory works best against an early shotgun rush as it allows you to close the distance to the attacking marines without being blasted apart.
SC in response to fortified bases!? So how are you going to take them down? One obs at each of those bases and bam: all sensory offensive capabilities gone. If you're refering to ambushing the marines moving out of said bases, two things: 1) One scan and that capacity is gone and 2) If the marines have 4 res nodes and a hive location, they don't have to move out! They stay snug in their bases and tech up before heading out. What allows you to break fortifications? DCs.
Building MCs in response to res rushing again makes no sense. As I've said, most commanders in 2.01e will quickly electrify the bulk of the res they capture. MCs won't help you take those nodes down. Defense on the other hand does, especially on 1 hive Fades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->publics: Then there are public games. Rarely you see more than 1/3 of one team at one location, everyone runs around alone without saying a word or caring for others. Behaviour is mixed, DMC is the best choice most times. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What public servers are you playing on? I'm seriously starting to think that the Australian public servers are a big cut above the US public servers because this kind of behaviour is seen very rarely. Alien and marine teams increasingly on Australian public servers work as a team, using voice-com to co-ordinate assaults and tactics. Sure, every now and again you get some newbs. But overall the players and teams are good.
But it's not just that. Top clans won't go with sensory first unless they're really confident of victory. Movement can work, and many clans will use it, but the advantages of Defense especially in 2.01e simply strengthen it as the best first chamber. I play extensively in the clan scene here in Australia and D-M-S has emerged as the best formula for victory. Yes, you *can* win with Sense or Mov first, but it's so much harder and the marines can counter these 2 chambers easier. Why put your team through extra stress with S or M first when D will do the job just fine?
1: SCs offer <b>NOTHING</b> to aid in taking down a fortified location. SCs serve a defensive function and face if, if you're on the defense you've already lost.
2: Movement chambers while they have nice upgrades are never seen outside of hives. The energy boost nice as it is just doesn't work. You set up a minioutpost outside the area you want to hit, 2 OCs an MC and a DC maybe even a SC if you have all 3 hives. Comm drops a seige turret (or already has a seige turret or two ready) and pings the area, you and the minioutpost you're fighting from are dead.
3: Defense is hands down the best upgrade chamber because its upgrades are useful AND it has a place in the field. MCs have good upgrades (celeriskulks adrenlerks etc.) but are 90% useless in the field (see 2) SCs have 1 maybe 2 usable upgrades and a useful field function except there is a hard counter to them.
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Sep 14 2003, 01:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 14 2003, 01:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I use regen fade because metabolose is complete and utter crap. Why would I want to use this hive 2 ability when I could get the same ability to happen ALL the time, even in combat, makes less noise, doesn't use stamina, and I can remain cloaked with? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> marines will hear regen sound unless silenced it's slower than meta doesn't really help in combat
As much as I like S&M, you have to have the proper protection first. I mean, that fade's leathery hide just won't stand up to a good whipping by those big, tough marines. I've been in some games where the aliens got a big dose of Sensory Then Defense, and trust me, it ain't pretty. After that, it's only a matter of time before they die. They're just rendered completely impotent.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited September 2003
Actually Ryo, we pulled off a first hive sense win against stf on Sunday. If used properly, sensory is the ultimate containment tool. It requires a fast expansion followed by well co-ordinated ambushes at the approches to the marine base. This leads to economic attrition, the marines have to spend money on shotties, motion tracking, forward obs. While sensory is easy to counter, it is also expensive to counter. Countering MCs or DCs just requires some investment at the armslab, countering SCs requires the aforementioned forward observatories on top of the armslab upgrades.
In short, SC first requires far more co-ordination than using any of the other chambers first. As a result you won't see it on pubs much unless the aliens are feeling cocky. SCs also have one other thing going for them, they are unexpected.
With that said, I prefer movement first <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It requires a fast expansion followed by well co-ordinated ambushes at the approches to the marine base. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but that is EXTREMELY difficult. For every time sense works, there will be many times where it fails dismally.
All that needed to happen in that game is a breakthrough at one point and you should of been screwed (Hive+Electric res lockdowns). I have seen that happen about twice now.
We're not arguing that sensory can't win, we're arguing that pulling off a sensory win is amazingly more difficult and far riskier. And you don't need forward observatories, just where it is important like at hive locations etc (unless that is what you meant anyway). Turrets will whack sensory aliens and electricity essentially renders your TF/RT immune to sense anyway.
Interesting Mouse I'm impressed that you beat stf with it. How much of that was due to surprise though? (i.e. stf wouldn't expect another top clan to use sens first). Btw I now refuse to command when stf//SUPER_AEGIS is playing on the alien side. I lost an entire game yesterday to his Fadeing. That guy is insane.
Yeah like Aegis said, it can work, and it has. In the same way that the marines can win no armour upgrades and no weapon upgrades. But D-M-S simply has the best chance of success against a good marine side. M-D-S has only one flaw, that being it's inabiliy to break 2 hive lockdowns, and that is a rather big flaw. Plus early Fades and Lerks just get such a boost from Defense (not to say they don't get boosted by Movement as well). I think as marine teams get better and work out concrete strats D-M-S will become more and more popular.
Been suggested countless times before. I personally like the idea, and it seems (in my opinion) to fit the sensory idea too...kinda anyway.
I think that this would give more reason to pick sensory first, so it's actually ontopic <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If sensory actually had an offensive use to it, it might be good.
I've always thought it should have an upgrade like this:
- Gives +10,+20,+30% more attack power to all alien attacks with levels 1-3, respectivily. However, it does not work for spores, umbra, primal scream, webs, stomp, devour, xenocide, or blink.
It would make sensory far more valuable for taking down lockdowns and giving bigger evolutions a useful upgrade. One could argue a D&S combo might work better than a D&M combo if sensory had such an upgrade.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 15 2003, 06:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 15 2003, 06:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If sensory actually had an offensive use to it, it might be good.
I've always thought it should have an upgrade like this:
- Gives +10,+20,+30% more attack power to all alien attacks with levels 1-3, respectivily. However, it does not work for spores, umbra, primal scream, webs, stomp, devour, xenocide, or blink.
It would make sensory far more valuable for taking down lockdowns and giving bigger evolutions a useful upgrade. One could argue a D&S combo might work better than a D&M combo if sensory had such an upgrade.
An onos would deal 120 with it's gore... lol. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> An upgrade which is incompatible with nearly half the alien attacks? sounds a bit useless.
<!--QuoteBegin--ScarletPhoenix+Sep 15 2003, 12:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ScarletPhoenix @ Sep 15 2003, 12:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As much as I like S&M, you have to have the proper protection first. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ohhh, come on, am I the only one who noticed this line..... LMFAO "Have the proper protection.." Its GOLD! LOL
<!--QuoteBegin--ScarletPhoenix+Sep 15 2003, 12:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ScarletPhoenix @ Sep 15 2003, 12:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As much as I like S&M, you have to have the proper protection first. I mean, that fade's leathery hide just won't stand up to a good whipping by those big, tough marines. I've been in some games where the aliens got a big dose of Sensory Then Defense, and trust me, it ain't pretty. After that, it's only a matter of time before they die. They're just rendered completely impotent. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL I just reread it... This has to be a joke
<!--QuoteBegin--K'Ragg+Sep 15 2003, 09:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (K'Ragg @ Sep 15 2003, 09:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Sep 15 2003, 06:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 15 2003, 06:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If sensory actually had an offensive use to it, it might be good.
I've always thought it should have an upgrade like this:
- Gives +10,+20,+30% more attack power to all alien attacks with levels 1-3, respectivily. However, it does not work for spores, umbra, primal scream, webs, stomp, devour, xenocide, or blink.
It would make sensory far more valuable for taking down lockdowns and giving bigger evolutions a useful upgrade. One could argue a D&S combo might work better than a D&M combo if sensory had such an upgrade.
An onos would deal 120 with it's gore... lol. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> An upgrade which is incompatible with nearly half the alien attacks? sounds a bit useless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe you haven't noticed how most alien upgrades aren't useful for everything?
It wouldn't be useless, trust me.
You would be able to tear down structures much easier, marine's would need level 2 armor to withstand 3 bites from a skulk, gore would massacre, fades would deal 100 damage per swipe... just do the math and think about it. We are talking a VERY viable alien upgrade at hive 1 or 2.
Also, the extra damage fits in well with the sensory chamber's passive ability... not only do you get the first hit, but you can also hit them <b>hard</b>... making lethal hit and runs.
Lets see... what else? Gorges would heal more, bile bomb would wreak bases even more, spikes from a lerk would be damn leathal, jeez just think of the possibilities...
And plz, don't even say this would be overpowered... The real question is this: Would this be better than moving at nearly 2x your speed, having unlimited ammo, not being able to die, regenerating to full health, becoming nearly 2x as tough, or being competly silent? Because these are the upgrades we are comparing it all to.
Comments
You can spot those people because they are the ones screaming about Def chambers first 10 seconds in the game. By not dropping a Def chamber you are telling them, "Go ahead and Onos, but it'll suck untill 2nd or 3rd hive." Some of these guys still go Onos, but some will use their rez on something constructive. (A hive or rez nozzle)
Most of the loss's I'v seen lately are not because of def first, but because of how selfish some of the players are about their rez. They havn't realized that by helping your team EVERYONE can get the chance to be something besides a skulk or gorge.
I'll admit I prefer players who don't be greedy but I'd hardly go out of my way to spite them; it's a game after all and as long as you enjoy yourself, win or lose does it really matter that theres a bunch of easily ignorable jerks in your team? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
LIE. it wasnt always build and it only works cus of newbish teamplay.
sens first owned DMS on 1.04 when skulks behaved correctly ! and it was hard to counter !
movement first owned with 4 early gorges, gorge rushing, sadly this was way too rare.
---- If your team has gone movement or sensory first, your chances of breaking a 2 hive lockdown are slim indeed.
If your team has movement ot sensory first marines normaly never achieve a 2 hive lockdown or are able to hold it because it gets detected too soon.
---- ...Fades and Oni by a factor of at least 2.
funneh. Fades profit the least from defense chambers in general. Onos the second least, lerks are best with defense first. But thats just a theory in "utopic gameplay".
---- blah blah 2 hive lockdown...
your team obviously fails in basic teamwork, ambushes, guarding and gorge healing.
---- Free scans negate the inbuilt ability of sens chambers
they aint free. and they only nullify cloaking.
. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Slow down buddy....
1. It WAS built because it DID work and was more capable as a whole than sensory or movement first. Where sensory and movement required finesse to extract their full potential, defense was always there. You could inadvertently move the mouse wrong and kill yourself skulking with celerity, you could accidentally twitch and decloak with sensory, but no matter what you did you'd always take a few more bullets to kill with carapace.
I give ya that it wasn't always built.... it was built more often than not.
Saying that 1.04 sensory was hard to counter is hogwash. Alot of the time (if you were only blind in one eye) you could still see a cloaked alien. The other sensory upgrades were laughable as a hive one ability.
2. "funneh. Fades profit the least from defense chambers in general. Onos the second least." Are you talking from a life percentage standpoint? The damage tanking capability of the onos and fade are increase the least percentage-wise...however one must also consider exactly how much life that percentage stands for. An example could be... 30% of 70 is actually less than 15% of 500.
Regeneration lends to the fade's hit and run style and is in several ways more useful than metabolize..one being that it uses no energy freeing up more energy for important things like fighting. Regeneration assists the onos more than any other alien, the huge amount of HP healed per tick plus the speed of the ticks make the onos pretty much immune to small turret farms and one or two LMG marines.
As minor or "noobish" as an ability may appear, if it allows the average "Joe Blow" player to kill a second marine when normally that could only get one....it can be considered a 100% increase in effectiveness.
3. "your team obviously fails in teamwork, ambushes, guarding and gorge healing"
One way to interpret this statement is that of a loose flame based on the ignorance of the quoted poster's team's status and abilities in conjuction with the overall ability of the opposing team.
Things happen in a game, players get lucky, players suddenly realise their potential. The marine team "if working correctly" is a formidable enemy even to a well played and highly skilled alien team....as it should be.
Picking defense as a hive one chamber is a precaution just as the marines setting up an upgrading standard weapons is a precaution. Yes, both sides can win without it, they have the capability. They are simply doing everything they can to make sure that if things get tough, they'll have a better chance in any given fight. The marines' fight being one of bases, lockdowns, and seiges... the aliens one or hives and annihilation.
4. "they aint free. and they only nullify cloaking"
A. Technically they are since observatory energy costs no resources directly. The observatory its self costs resources, and energy is aquired stored while not in use up to the cap which allows for multiple "pings" from one observatory when normally only one is needed unless a seige is occuring.
Commanders who have recieved work of a sensory first hive normally build multiple observatory platforms and are easily able to counteract sensory chambers entirely via hotkeyed observatories and aggressive tactics.
B. "they only nullify cloaking" That's kinda the point. Scanner sweeps are not devastating to carapaced skulks waiting in ambush...in fact... the odds are about the same sweep or no. But to a hive 1 cloaked skulks... there's trouble since the skulk has no assured defense.
Don't mind him
It's not so much that sensory flat out sucks, but rather that it can be easily countered and the upgrades aren't necessary to keep up with marines.
You can spot those people because they are the ones screaming about Def chambers first 10 seconds in the game. By not dropping a Def chamber you are telling them, "Go ahead and Onos, but it'll suck untill 2nd or 3rd hive." Some of these guys still go Onos, but some will use their rez on something constructive. (A hive or rez nozzle)
Most of the loss's I'v seen lately are not because of def first, but because of how selfish some of the players are about their rez. They havn't realized that by helping your team EVERYONE can get the chance to be something besides a skulk or gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHOA! Good s**t, I'll keep that in mind.
Public games having people with a variety of experience were one good player can kill 1/3rd of the unexperienced players of the oposite team at once.
On reg games all players have the same game experience and know each other a little better. Theres 5 times more comunication and theyre sharing the same experiences and strategys.
The special thing about servers with regular players is, they focused themselfes on some kinds of behaviour:
regs:
CSish: I know one server were most people are really experienced in CS, they play really good offensive and expansive, you rarely see them building bigger turret farms. They have a lack of gorges sometimes. When they attack they all attack together.
TFCish: I know one server that plays realy werid/unique strategys fast switching between attack and fortifiing. Sometimes they bloody fail, but its hella funny, sometimes they rock, they have average teamwork and great ambushes.
DODish: Then theres the defensive pushing forward server, 2-3 big fortifications epic battles, sometimes great teamwork and awfull pings with all players in one room.
The best chamber order depends on the players mood (shall we rush? mkay.....)
publics:
Then there are public games. Rarely you see more than 1/3 of one team at one location, everyone runs around alone without saying a word or caring for others. Behaviour is mixed, DMC is the best choice most times.
However, I think there are plenty of middle ground servers, which aren't the pub utopias described as regulars, but aren't teamworkless rambolands where no one talks. In fact the no one talks thing is an exageration IMO, that can't be very common. To me, it seems like there is always people talking, and often there will be someone whining/talking about the team's strategy or next move.
"rush .... now" , "theyre in ..."
and
"omg you ..." , "comm drop a..."
to talking.
Im thinking about DISCUSIONS and looking for each other while moving around.
Movement. Most expensive, most effective. (50 res plus for proper lockdown)
Defense. - - (20 res plus for proper lockdown)
Sensory. Least expensive, least effective. (10 res pray to god ;p)
Marines get totally ****ed
~Jason
This would allow aliens to change tactics without having to secure more hives. Thus they could change tactics to respond to the marines, instead of having them set in stone, dictated by the first type of chamber they created.
Obviously the process would consume time and res, that would be the price.
But imagine this scenario: The marines have a hive (or two) locked down. They are too lazy to go and finish the game quickly, but the aliens are unable to make an impression on the huge turret farm because they chose sensory first. The gorges then start recycling all the sc's, and eventually replace them with dc's. The marines should have used this opportunity to attack, but after a while they find themselves having to fight off cara'd and redeeming aliens!
Recycling of alien structures has been suggested before (for other reasons) and the main problem brought up was that of lamer gorges. IMO the 'troll factor' is one we should try and let the server admins deal with, rather than limiting the potential to improve the game for everyone else.
Maybe I should post this in the S & I forum ...
Marines get totally ****ed
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then they have an stupid commander.
Most good commanders when they see sense build an observatory, you will never cloak walk into the base of a good commander period.
However you can massacre marines out in the field. The problem is you often won't be able to stop them before they get to hives or whatever. Once they lockdown a hive or two, you're essentially screwed.
When they fortify their bases early build SC first.
When they take many Resnodes quickly build MC first.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ollj this makes absolutly no sense! How is DC going to help you against a shotgun rush? In fact, sensory works best against an early shotgun rush as it allows you to close the distance to the attacking marines without being blasted apart.
SC in response to fortified bases!? So how are you going to take them down? One obs at each of those bases and bam: all sensory offensive capabilities gone. If you're refering to ambushing the marines moving out of said bases, two things: 1) One scan and that capacity is gone and 2) If the marines have 4 res nodes and a hive location, they don't have to move out! They stay snug in their bases and tech up before heading out. What allows you to break fortifications? DCs.
Building MCs in response to res rushing again makes no sense. As I've said, most commanders in 2.01e will quickly electrify the bulk of the res they capture. MCs won't help you take those nodes down. Defense on the other hand does, especially on 1 hive Fades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->publics:
Then there are public games. Rarely you see more than 1/3 of one team at one location, everyone runs around alone without saying a word or caring for others. Behaviour is mixed, DMC is the best choice most times. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What public servers are you playing on? I'm seriously starting to think that the Australian public servers are a big cut above the US public servers because this kind of behaviour is seen very rarely. Alien and marine teams increasingly on Australian public servers work as a team, using voice-com to co-ordinate assaults and tactics. Sure, every now and again you get some newbs. But overall the players and teams are good.
But it's not just that. Top clans won't go with sensory first unless they're really confident of victory. Movement can work, and many clans will use it, but the advantages of Defense especially in 2.01e simply strengthen it as the best first chamber. I play extensively in the clan scene here in Australia and D-M-S has emerged as the best formula for victory. Yes, you *can* win with Sense or Mov first, but it's so much harder and the marines can counter these 2 chambers easier. Why put your team through extra stress with S or M first when D will do the job just fine?
1: SCs offer <b>NOTHING</b> to aid in taking down a fortified location.
SCs serve a defensive function and face if, if you're on the defense you've already lost.
2: Movement chambers while they have nice upgrades are never seen outside of hives.
The energy boost nice as it is just doesn't work. You set up a minioutpost outside the area you want to hit, 2 OCs an MC and a DC maybe even a SC if you have all 3 hives. Comm drops a seige turret (or already has a seige turret or two ready) and pings the area, you and the minioutpost you're fighting from are dead.
3: Defense is hands down the best upgrade chamber because its upgrades are useful AND it has a place in the field.
MCs have good upgrades (celeriskulks adrenlerks etc.) but are 90% useless in the field (see 2) SCs have 1 maybe 2 usable upgrades and a useful field function except there is a hard counter to them.
marines will hear regen sound unless silenced
it's slower than meta
doesn't really help in combat
It requires a fast expansion followed by well co-ordinated ambushes at the approches to the marine base. This leads to economic attrition, the marines have to spend money on shotties, motion tracking, forward obs. While sensory is easy to counter, it is also expensive to counter.
Countering MCs or DCs just requires some investment at the armslab, countering SCs requires the aforementioned forward observatories on top of the armslab upgrades.
In short, SC first requires far more co-ordination than using any of the other chambers first. As a result you won't see it on pubs much unless the aliens are feeling cocky. SCs also have one other thing going for them, they are unexpected.
With that said, I prefer movement first <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes, but that is EXTREMELY difficult. For every time sense works, there will be many times where it fails dismally.
All that needed to happen in that game is a breakthrough at one point and you should of been screwed (Hive+Electric res lockdowns). I have seen that happen about twice now.
We're not arguing that sensory can't win, we're arguing that pulling off a sensory win is amazingly more difficult and far riskier. And you don't need forward observatories, just where it is important like at hive locations etc (unless that is what you meant anyway). Turrets will whack sensory aliens and electricity essentially renders your TF/RT immune to sense anyway.
Yeah like Aegis said, it can work, and it has. In the same way that the marines can win no armour upgrades and no weapon upgrades. But D-M-S simply has the best chance of success against a good marine side. M-D-S has only one flaw, that being it's inabiliy to break 2 hive lockdowns, and that is a rather big flaw. Plus early Fades and Lerks just get such a boost from Defense (not to say they don't get boosted by Movement as well). I think as marine teams get better and work out concrete strats D-M-S will become more and more popular.
Sorry if that is off topic.
I think that this would give more reason to pick sensory first, so it's actually ontopic <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've always thought it should have an upgrade like this:
- Gives +10,+20,+30% more attack power to all alien attacks with levels 1-3, respectivily. However, it does not work for spores, umbra, primal scream, webs, stomp, devour, xenocide, or blink.
It would make sensory far more valuable for taking down lockdowns and giving bigger evolutions a useful upgrade. One could argue a D&S combo might work better than a D&M combo if sensory had such an upgrade.
An onos would deal 120 with it's gore... lol.
I've always thought it should have an upgrade like this:
- Gives +10,+20,+30% more attack power to all alien attacks with levels 1-3, respectivily. However, it does not work for spores, umbra, primal scream, webs, stomp, devour, xenocide, or blink.
It would make sensory far more valuable for taking down lockdowns and giving bigger evolutions a useful upgrade. One could argue a D&S combo might work better than a D&M combo if sensory had such an upgrade.
An onos would deal 120 with it's gore... lol. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
An upgrade which is incompatible with nearly half the alien attacks? sounds a bit useless.
Ohhh, come on, am I the only one who noticed this line.....
LMFAO
"Have the proper protection.." Its GOLD!
LOL
LOL
I just reread it... This has to be a joke
I've always thought it should have an upgrade like this:
- Gives +10,+20,+30% more attack power to all alien attacks with levels 1-3, respectivily. However, it does not work for spores, umbra, primal scream, webs, stomp, devour, xenocide, or blink.
It would make sensory far more valuable for taking down lockdowns and giving bigger evolutions a useful upgrade. One could argue a D&S combo might work better than a D&M combo if sensory had such an upgrade.
An onos would deal 120 with it's gore... lol. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An upgrade which is incompatible with nearly half the alien attacks? sounds a bit useless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you haven't noticed how most alien upgrades aren't useful for everything?
It wouldn't be useless, trust me.
You would be able to tear down structures much easier, marine's would need level 2 armor to withstand 3 bites from a skulk, gore would massacre, fades would deal 100 damage per swipe... just do the math and think about it. We are talking a VERY viable alien upgrade at hive 1 or 2.
Also, the extra damage fits in well with the sensory chamber's passive ability... not only do you get the first hit, but you can also hit them <b>hard</b>... making lethal hit and runs.
Lets see... what else? Gorges would heal more, bile bomb would wreak bases even more, spikes from a lerk would be damn leathal, jeez just think of the possibilities...
And plz, don't even say this would be overpowered... The real question is this: Would this be better than moving at nearly 2x your speed, having unlimited ammo, not being able to die, regenerating to full health, becoming nearly 2x as tough, or being competly silent? Because these are the upgrades we are comparing it all to.