Me and the alien them worked wonders with mc at a game, rines tried to siege us 3 times and all of them failed due to the fact that the onos, fades and any other units could get there just after the tf was up near our second hive, we owned the pg, tf and all the marines that got there, we had fewer troble taking out 5b, we finally took it(they had relocated to 5b access so we couldnt build a hive safely <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> ) eventually we built the hive and no scs since we needed to constantly attack.
im not saying sc sucks as a first hive chamber, i have seen some pretty good sc as first chamber victories although they loose the element of surpries after about 3 mins. They also let you build a hive that cannot be seen(the biggest advantage if u ask me).
<!--QuoteBegin--Amelek+Aug 19 2003, 10:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amelek @ Aug 19 2003, 10:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I love this thread ... its really long but hasn't discussed one of the most IMPORTANT uses of sensory. Sensory first, particularly around the hive is one of the best counters to a full out shotgun rush in the game. With the devastating power of the shotgun rush, it at least makes it worthwhile to note. Dropping a sensory in your hive when you hear that marines are coming with shotguns could save your game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> During a shotgun rush, a comm will usually immeditely listen for which hive the aliens started at so the marines won't have to bother with that stuff.
And as hinted, your name still shows up bright and clear if someone looks at you. Goodbye cloaking effectiveness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Should be taken out by 2.1
I'm not gonna bother arguing why movement is better than sensory... I'd just like to point something out:
Look at the 2.01d/2.1a proposed changelog (<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=31&t=43142&st=0' target='_blank'>here</a>), and tell me what alien chamber/upgrade-specific changes you see.
1. A celerity nerf. (25% speed increase per level instead of 35%) 2. A movement chamber nerf. (can't teleport to unfinished hives) 3. A cloaking boost. (quieter)
My counter Sens is Level one armour and shotguns. (plus aiming troops but thats a given) and exploiting the fact that sens aliens have a hard time assulting fortifide positions.
Picture this, 4 of my troops run into a sens protected room. 2 of them have shotguns. (normaly 3 but lets say res is tight) 2 skulks have been waiting there. (not watching the other areas of the map because we know nothing can ever get past a sensory chamber. ever!) They drop and start biting.
They get 2 bites in each and kill one guy (assuming the shotties miss the first shot out of supprise and they were attacking the same guy). They are quickly dispached by shotty blasts. Now while all this is going on my faithfull res runners caped me a node and it is being electrifide now. but that wount be a problem because that electifide node cant see you with cloaking (note the sarcasm).
this can and will happen many times in a game.
Oh and one other thing. if sens is the best first chamber. why dont most top Clans use it every game? you must be better than they are if you can see the light they can't. also i have noticed some really long endgames with sens first. i wonder what it could be from.
i agree with asterisk, having sens isnt a huge advantage over the marines, sure its fun, but taking back a locked hive that has an obs there will take LOTS OF TIME since alins cant move faster or attack more continiusly <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> > sens <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sensory chambers are quite different from the other two chambers.
First of all, it needs to be deployed properly and this requires a proper res flow. That is, at least three res towers capped right away. if your team cannot achieve that, sens is not recommended at all. You'll also want a dedicated gorge to see to the sensory grid going up not only in the choke points as the game plays on.
Next, it needs to be deployed properly. The advantages of sensory is its first strike capability and the strategical awareness through SoF. For SoF, deployment does not matter obviously, but for the cloaking, it does. It needs to be deployed in high traffic areas, but at the same time out of the way. The odds of a marine firing at it should be low, and if a marine were to bump into it, you want to place it in such a way that he is backing up at the time. It does not, however, help much with breaking fortified bases. Especially not if the comm can afford an obs in ever major base. (of course, you don't want him to get to that point.)
Also, if possible, place the sensory chamber in such a way that if a comm was to scan, he might not notice it. (dark corners, etc.) On top of this, time is of the essence. As I've allready mentioned, it won't help you break fortified points, so if you go sensory, you have to stop marines before it gets to that point.
Each observatory, when full, grants four scans, and it takes one minute, thirty seconds to recharge one scan. Obviously, if the comm wants to scan a lot, it'll require multiple observatories, which costs res. Sensory also requires more attention from the comm until their base has been fortified, especially so if he goes with the pinging ahead of the troops approach.
Amusingly, sensory seems to be the tower that helps out skulks the most, especially if the marine team is disorganized. On the other hand, it does little to help fades and onos compared to what the other two towers does. So your choice is essentially this, easy kills early game vs harder time getting last hive, or let marines get more rfk early on but have the best upgrades once you get to the higher lifeforms.
Oh, and I can't possibly imagine why anyone would drop sens as the second tower. IMHO, either sens/def/move or def/move/sens depending on your opponents. (I know a lot like move first, but as a gorge, I really despise dropping a move at the first hive. It does nothing to enhance my OC's (I've been toying with OC setups, but that's for a different post, I gather.) and there's only one hive, so little point in the warp function at the time, leaving only the passive upgrades as a reason for getting the movement chamber early on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alien wins with M first: 90% Alien wins with D first: 80% Alien wins with S first: 30%<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOW! thats a crock of ****! lol
SCs ALWAYS 1st...then DCs. Plain and simple. In my opinion...MCs just get u fast SKULK victories...which is ****. I like usin SCs cuz...well...its fun messin with people <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> PLUS...if i drop an RT at south loop...and an SC...all i have to do is sit there...save res for hive/RT at maint...and i wont have to worry about bein attacked.
ALSO...since im an ub3r "elite" gorge <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ....SCs at station access...or somewhere with a mini base...helps me be able to either RUN from attackin rines as a gorge...or kill them with web/spit combo...or...(if no 3rd hive) just runnin and spit.
OBVIOUSLY the only way to go is either SCs, DCs, MCs...or DCs, SCs, MCs....
I like prolonging marine defeat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well, I'm OK with SC first, since I love SoF. SoF is really good, and it helps you survive by letting you know when rines come. However, some people above are very, very right by saying you need 3 hives. When our team goes SC first, I keep shouting to them "DO NOT LET ANY HIVE GO DOWN!!!!". It's very true, as when you get 2 hvies you should get DC. Thus, you have DC/SC. I prefer to get Redempt/Cara + SoF for that time. However, you miss out a LOT on the MC upgrades. Adren is very good for repeated attacks where you can't let up. Cele is good for the skulks, since it moves them at uber-speed. Silence is perfect for the vent lurker lerk, as it allows them to be asssasins (I taunt rines by saying "(name), Silent spikes are going to pierce though your body soon" and I see them looking around while I spike them without fear of being found out. Thus, SC first is good only when you secure all THREE hives. Two hives you lose, one hive you are owned, that's it.
<!--QuoteBegin--SkitZoFrenic+Aug 21 2003, 08:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkitZoFrenic @ Aug 21 2003, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alien wins with M first: 90% Alien wins with D first: 80% Alien wins with S first: 30%<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOW! thats a crock of ****! lol
SCs ALWAYS 1st...then DCs. Plain and simple. In my opinion...MCs just get u fast SKULK victories...which is ****. I like usin SCs cuz...well...its fun messin with people <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> PLUS...if i drop an RT at south loop...and an SC...all i have to do is sit there...save res for hive/RT at maint...and i wont have to worry about bein attacked.
ALSO...since im an ub3r "elite" gorge <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ....SCs at station access...or somewhere with a mini base...helps me be able to either RUN from attackin rines as a gorge...or kill them with web/spit combo...or...(if no 3rd hive) just runnin and spit.
OBVIOUSLY the only way to go is either SCs, DCs, MCs...or DCs, SCs, MCs....
I like prolonging marine defeat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, I think I hate you.
<!--QuoteBegin--Xzilen+Aug 22 2003, 04:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Aug 22 2003, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SkitZoFrenic+Aug 21 2003, 08:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkitZoFrenic @ Aug 21 2003, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alien wins with M first: 90% Alien wins with D first: 80% Alien wins with S first: 30%<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOW! thats a crock of ****! lol
SCs ALWAYS 1st...then DCs. Plain and simple. In my opinion...MCs just get u fast SKULK victories...which is ****. I like usin SCs cuz...well...its fun messin with people <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> PLUS...if i drop an RT at south loop...and an SC...all i have to do is sit there...save res for hive/RT at maint...and i wont have to worry about bein attacked.
ALSO...since im an ub3r "elite" gorge <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ....SCs at station access...or somewhere with a mini base...helps me be able to either RUN from attackin rines as a gorge...or kill them with web/spit combo...or...(if no 3rd hive) just runnin and spit.
OBVIOUSLY the only way to go is either SCs, DCs, MCs...or DCs, SCs, MCs....
I like prolonging marine defeat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, I think I hate you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I second this motion!
<!--QuoteBegin--K'Ragg+Aug 21 2003, 04:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (K'Ragg @ Aug 21 2003, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I know a lot like move first, but as a gorge, I really despise dropping a move at the first hive. It does nothing to enhance my OC's (I've been toying with OC setups, but that's for a different post, I gather.) and there's only one hive, so little point in the warp function at the time, leaving only the passive upgrades as a reason for getting the movement chamber early on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Might I suggest you're deploying your movements wrong then?
First thing I do as a skulk is head directly to one of our other hives. That way I can scout relocates and have easy access to an RT if the marines are moving slowly. If the hive-mind calls for movement, I'm in a great place to put one down. Since hives are generally spread out evenly across the map, a movement in an unbuilt hive is good for three reasons..
1. The rest of the team might not have so far to run if the initial hive comes under attack. 2. My team finds it slightly easier to kill any marines that try and set up in the hive I'm in. (I try to put it near a good lerk point) 3. If I'm being pummelled, I can warp back to the main hive for healing, which denies them RFK, and saves me 10 res for having to evolve again.
Hehe, this quite the debate. But simply MC is is far the better upgrade becuase it allows the aliens to have abilities that good player cant simulate. I mean insted of cloaking can u just hide somwhere instead. Or instead fo SoF cnat you just listen or use parasites. However there is no way to move faster , attack longer or move silently (with speed) without an MC.
SC can win you the game is they are immedialty set up in hotspots (double res in caged epescially), and from thre all places are well fortified with OC. but this will lead to a long drawn out win ending up with a TF in marine start.
MC howerver obliterates all. skulks become easily twice as good as any marine , not to mention the MC is practically a neccesity for fades/lerks.
Im not a bad comm - not great either (no mic dont help ) but in every game ive commed recently against SC (perhaps ten games , Sc not seen much anymore) we have won. THe iceing on the cake came on veil last time. we got a PG up to double res . and the other team complains that an Sc was dropped (1.04 anyone <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Immediatly we got one man in the two other hives PG,PG, obs, obs - 2 hive lockdown + double res + topo res + the one between pipes and topo in about 5 mins. The entiertyy of the laiens team attempted a orge / skulk /lerk attack against the 3 turrets + 3 marines in the central hive - they all were dead before i could type that they were there <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
game ended in 10 mins with res 8v2 from 10 sieges outide their hive - absolutly nothing they could do.
However I have ony won one gam against MC , and lost many (mostly to adren gorges/lerks in vents).
Different chambers for different teams. I as a new player loved sensory. Now I know what I'm doing, I'm more inclined to ask for MC. In games where we're shotty rushed, its DC.
No one chamber is a "must" for ALL games and ALL teams.
Movement is better if you know what you're doing as a skulk. Sensory is better if you intend to hide on a small map. Defense is better if you have to fend off a shotgun rush.
By sticking to a "this ONE chamber always pweens" mentality you only set yourself and your team up for a massive fall.
Ok let's take this debate in a different direction, we have enough information right now about first chamber SC IMO. Regardless of how good or bad SC is for a first chamber, how does it do as a second chamber?
I think that if you haven’t taken sensory as a first chamber, it can safely wait until 3rd hive. By the time your second hive is going up, a good team of marines could easily accumulate a few res points and will have the capacity either to put an observatory at each outpost, or build two or three at base to provide enough energy for scan sweeps. In other words, multiple observatories are more economically viable than it is at the very early game.
After the initial “Wow, cool!” rush from sensory chambers, I find myself preferring the M/D/S route – defence is almost definitely needed by hive 2 for non-gorge healing and movement upgrades are just too good to pass up – I find the sensory upgrades are quite useless compared to what the other two chambers can offer. Adrenaline for lerks (and fades), all defensive upgrades for onos, celerity/silence for skulks and redemption (or upgrades of choice) for gorges – you don’t really need Scent of Fear, cloaking or pheromones to attack and kill. Good, fast skulk scouts should fulfil the SoF “wallhack” role instead.
The only redeeming factor for the sensory chamber, therefore, would have to come from its cloaking ability. That being said, I view cloaking as primarily a defensive attribute – I use it to hide healing stations, or use it to gain a second or two of time to close the distance between yourself and an unsuspecting marine. I don’t find it worth going without either defensive or movement upgrades against a skilled marine team. S/D lerks have energy problems, S/M onos have problems killing successfully without extra carapace or regeneration...but all M/D Kharaa lose out on are a wallhack and some temporary cloaking.
didnt really saw who posted it but the guy who said that he pull of 2 hive lockdown 75% of the time. honestly dude what nooob aliens are you playing with? and what patch are you playing in? the c patch? well gotta tell you that marine wins 99% of the games there so nothing new there. but play 2.0 or b patch you will not be able to lock down 2 hives if the aliens have skilled players.2 hive lockdown only works general if the aliens are newbies or did a very huge misstake that I cant even think of
I personally like MC followed by DC. It allows Lerks to spam spores in the early game to hinder marines trying to build areas up, and skulks can speed around to whatever part of the map they're needed at. By the time second hive goes up, you should have a couple lerks or skulks that have racked up enough rfk to go Onos, and with DC they get to add Regen or Carapace to their Stomping to make them almost unstoppable to LA marines. This also makes them much more useful for dismantling marine outposts, since they can take the beating from the turrets long enough to get the TF down. Movement is also nice for an onos, again because you can get around quickly, and escape if you get into trouble.
Being invisible is definitely useful, and you can rack up alot of rfk by easily getting the jump on marine after marine. Scent of Fear is as useful for Kharaa as motion tracking is for Marines. The problem is, once marines get an outpost up and running with an obs, sensory doesn't do anything to help you destroy it. And from what i've experienced, shutting down marine expansion is a very important part of the Kharaa early game.
I'm having a hard time finding servers where everyone doesn't parrot the "SCs are useless" or some variant. Usually, when pressed, they say something equally uninformative, like "Sensory is for noobs." Whatever that means.
True story: I was playing on ns_bast yesterday, and someone built sensory first. We had engine hive, so I gorged and started securing refinery. With the help of a skulk and a couple well-placed SCs, we turned back several marine attacks while waiting for refinery hive.
I have no idea what the other six players on my team were doing, but somehow the marines built a phase gate right outside engine, and took down the hive. Not like a well-defended, turret-farmed base. Just a single phase gate. The first warning we had was when the hive started taking damage.
And, of course, everyone blamed sensory-first. Which is silly, because had anyone bothered to take SoF and stay near the hive, they might have noticed the marine rush. And had anyone built an SC (or any defenses, really) inside the hive, we might have been able to halt the rush. Had someone built a well-hidden SC in engine hive, we could have ninja-ed in to recapture the hive.
I think the problem with Sensory isn't that it's underpowered or whatever. It's that you need to play defensively with it. Which means working as a group (gorge + skulks) to <b>quickly</b> secure key parts of the map. You can't just spawn and go looking for marines to frag.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE Alien wins with M first: 90% Alien wins with D first: 80% Alien wins with S first: 30%
WOW! thats a crock of ****! lol
SCs ALWAYS 1st...then DCs. Plain and simple. In my opinion...MCs just get u fast SKULK victories...which is ****. I like usin SCs cuz...well...its fun messin with people PLUS...if i drop an RT at south loop...and an SC...all i have to do is sit there...save res for hive/RT at maint...and i wont have to worry about bein attacked.
ALSO...since im an ub3r "elite" gorge ....SCs at station access...or somewhere with a mini base...helps me be able to either RUN from attackin rines as a gorge...or kill them with web/spit combo...or...(if no 3rd hive) just runnin and spit.
OBVIOUSLY the only way to go is either SCs, DCs, MCs...or DCs, SCs, MCs....
I like prolonging marine defeat
Wow, I think I hate you.
I second this motion! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really now... I'll try to say this from an unbiased view (Which could be true, because I don't particularly have a favorite starting chamber)
Sensory: Everyone has to admit that this IS a primarily defensive chamber. Although it has offensive priorities, what is it most often used for? Guarding/Ambushing. If you can get near the marine start without running into marines and putting a sensory there, such as a room like Laser Drilling, then you could say you've locked down one marine path early game(Considering you have actual attacking life forms accompanying the sensory). Although calling that an offensive tactic is stretching it.
Cloaking- One of the least used skills because all this does is give you what the chamber does-and the chamber does it a heck lot better. This is great for ambushes, and is probably the primary offensive trait. Unfortunately, without Scent of Fear, unless you have great sound and the marines aren't walking stealthily, you will have a hard time figuring out where to ambush someone.
Scent of Fear-Scouting intelligence that is great for setting up ambushes, which is why you need either a cloaked ally or a sensory chamber around. Or, you could do it the old fashioned way and stick to the roof and hope you won't be noticed.
Pheromones-This is like Scent of Fear, but it's not for you, it's for your friends. If there's a marine on the other side of the wall, and your friend is there too, he might see the trail left by the marine. Of course, he should hear the marine too, so this is more like a noob helper than anything else. Actually, it's pretty much useless.
Conclusion: Sensory is used to <i>stop marine expansion.</i> It is not used to stop marines once they are done expanding. In other words, if you let the marines lock down your hives, you didn't use the chamber right, and you're probably going to die.
Movement: The most offensive chamber. (No, I don't count Offense Chambers <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ) Primarily used to confuse or support.
Celerity-When marines see skulks with this, they become a little nervous. Excellent for melee combat, because it allows you to get close to marines faster, and allows you to dodge bullets easier. Very handy on gorges, provided the gorge is a reasonable distance from the marine and a corner or another haven of some sort. Also allows any alien to expand quickly early game.
Silence-The substitute for cloaking early game. This allows you to ambush marines in a different fashion, although you're much more easily detectable. However, silence strikes as much fear into marines as cloaking does, because sound is a marine's best friend. Besides Motion Tracking. Good only on skulks, but occassionally can save the gorge.
Adrenaline-If you're going to rush the marine base, this is what you're looking for. This allows you to spore spam and keep the marines holed up in their base, as well as giving gorges the ability to heal chambers nearly indefinetely. The primary use is for the spore spamming. VERY offensive early game.
Conclusion:This is the chamber for rushing. You hole them in with spores/adrenaline if they have turrets in their main base, if they don't you use celerity. If they do get out, hunt them down with silence.
Defense: Defensive chamber, who would have guessed that? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> This chamber is used to hold territory and for hit-and-run tactics, although spore-and-run is more viable. Great for suicide attacks, but early game, none of these tactics are very appealing. You don't have enough territory to hold, and skulks do poorly in hit-and-run because of their low hp. Suicide is the only rushing tactic this is chamber offers.
Carapace-Put this on a a gorge and make him a tank. Gorges are quite dangerous provided they have a good aim, as two spit hits will nearly match the damage of a skulk's bite. Great on skulks for suicide rushes early game. Doesn't do much on a lerk.
Regeneration-Makes the gorge a tank yet again. Allows lerks to do spore-and-run attacks. If a skulk survives an encounter, allows him to return to front lines quickly. This trait is used to repel marines from a desired location.
Redemption-As alien's specialty is expanding, this is not a trait you would normally want early game. The only time to consider this trait is if the marines are rushing your hive-you run out, take a bite, and teleport a few feet away safely under the hive. In three seconds, you rush again, instead of having to die like nothing. Sensory chamber, however, is still more useful as marines rushing your hive is considered expanding.
Conclusion:Defense is viable on lerks for spore-and-run, and decent on gorges, however it is not highly offensive nor defensive early game, making it less of a good choice for a first chamber.
I haven't played too many 2.0 games, but I'm a strategist, so I get a lot of thinking in on this. Please point out to me what I'm saying wrong...
I think its funny when trolls like mared (he doesnt seem to be trolling now but I've seen it around...) try to argue strats with someone like stoney who is one of the better tacticians the game has to offer. To me the most important point is what you have if the take a hive which good marines usually do early on. I hate haveing sens/d or sens/mov only.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin--lazygamer+Aug 23 2003, 10:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lazygamer @ Aug 23 2003, 10:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok let's take this debate in a different direction, we have enough information right now about first chamber SC IMO. Regardless of how good or bad SC is for a first chamber, how does it do as a second chamber? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Even worse than as a first chamber since you are denying yourself either regen/redemption onos or adrenaline lerks/fades/gorges.
Comments
The <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&f=21' target='_blank'>Kharaa strategy forum</a> called, they want their dead horse back.
[edit]it's been phased here, since[/edit]
Sensory has become a crutch, and skulks seem to not put as much effort into being decent players anymore.
[/Statement]
Discuss.
Me and the alien them worked wonders with mc at a game, rines tried to siege us 3 times and all of them failed due to the fact that the onos, fades and any other units could get there just after the tf was up near our second hive, we owned the pg, tf and all the marines that got there, we had fewer troble taking out 5b, we finally took it(they had relocated to 5b access so we couldnt build a hive safely <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> ) eventually we built the hive and no scs since we needed to constantly attack.
im not saying sc sucks as a first hive chamber, i have seen some pretty good sc as first chamber victories although they loose the element of surpries after about 3 mins. They also let you build a hive that cannot be seen(the biggest advantage if u ask me).
During a shotgun rush, a comm will usually immeditely listen for which hive the aliens started at so the marines won't have to bother with that stuff.
And as hinted, your name still shows up bright and clear if someone looks at you. Goodbye cloaking effectiveness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Should be taken out by 2.1
Look at the 2.01d/2.1a proposed changelog (<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=31&t=43142&st=0' target='_blank'>here</a>), and tell me what alien chamber/upgrade-specific changes you see.
1. A celerity nerf. (25% speed increase per level instead of 35%)
2. A movement chamber nerf. (can't teleport to unfinished hives)
3. A cloaking boost. (quieter)
That pretty much sums it up.
/me goes back to looking forward to 2.1a.
Picture this, 4 of my troops run into a sens protected room. 2 of them have shotguns. (normaly 3 but lets say res is tight) 2 skulks have been waiting there. (not watching the other areas of the map because we know nothing can ever get past a sensory chamber. ever!) They drop and start biting.
They get 2 bites in each and kill one guy (assuming the shotties miss the first shot out of supprise and they were attacking the same guy). They are quickly dispached by shotty blasts. Now while all this is going on my faithfull res runners caped me a node and it is being electrifide now. but that wount be a problem because that electifide node cant see you with cloaking (note the sarcasm).
this can and will happen many times in a game.
Oh and one other thing. if sens is the best first chamber. why dont most top Clans use it every game? you must be better than they are if you can see the light they can't. also i have noticed some really long endgames with sens first. i wonder what it could be from.
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> > sens <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
First of all, it needs to be deployed properly and this requires a proper res flow. That is, at least three res towers capped right away. if your team cannot achieve that, sens is not recommended at all. You'll also want a dedicated gorge to see to the sensory grid going up not only in the choke points as the game plays on.
Next, it needs to be deployed properly. The advantages of sensory is its first strike capability and the strategical awareness through SoF. For SoF, deployment does not matter obviously, but for the cloaking, it does. It needs to be deployed in high traffic areas, but at the same time out of the way. The odds of a marine firing at it should be low, and if a marine were to bump into it, you want to place it in such a way that he is backing up at the time. It does not, however, help much with breaking fortified bases. Especially not if the comm can afford an obs in ever major base. (of course, you don't want him to get to that point.)
Also, if possible, place the sensory chamber in such a way that if a comm was to scan, he might not notice it. (dark corners, etc.) On top of this, time is of the essence. As I've allready mentioned, it won't help you break fortified points, so if you go sensory, you have to stop marines before it gets to that point.
Each observatory, when full, grants four scans, and it takes one minute, thirty seconds to recharge one scan. Obviously, if the comm wants to scan a lot, it'll require multiple observatories, which costs res. Sensory also requires more attention from the comm until their base has been fortified, especially so if he goes with the pinging ahead of the troops approach.
Amusingly, sensory seems to be the tower that helps out skulks the most, especially if the marine team is disorganized. On the other hand, it does little to help fades and onos compared to what the other two towers does. So your choice is essentially this, easy kills early game vs harder time getting last hive, or let marines get more rfk early on but have the best upgrades once you get to the higher lifeforms.
Oh, and I can't possibly imagine why anyone would drop sens as the second tower. IMHO, either sens/def/move or def/move/sens depending on your opponents. (I know a lot like move first, but as a gorge, I really despise dropping a move at the first hive. It does nothing to enhance my OC's (I've been toying with OC setups, but that's for a different post, I gather.) and there's only one hive, so little point in the warp function at the time, leaving only the passive upgrades as a reason for getting the movement chamber early on.
Alien wins with D first: 80%
Alien wins with S first: 30%<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOW! thats a crock of ****! lol
SCs ALWAYS 1st...then DCs. Plain and simple. In my opinion...MCs just get u fast SKULK victories...which is ****. I like usin SCs cuz...well...its fun messin with people <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> PLUS...if i drop an RT at south loop...and an SC...all i have to do is sit there...save res for hive/RT at maint...and i wont have to worry about bein attacked.
ALSO...since im an ub3r "elite" gorge <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ....SCs at station access...or somewhere with a mini base...helps me be able to either RUN from attackin rines as a gorge...or kill them with web/spit combo...or...(if no 3rd hive) just runnin and spit.
OBVIOUSLY the only way to go is either SCs, DCs, MCs...or DCs, SCs, MCs....
I like prolonging marine defeat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thus, SC first is good only when you secure all THREE hives. Two hives you lose, one hive you are owned, that's it.
Alien wins with D first: 80%
Alien wins with S first: 30%<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOW! thats a crock of ****! lol
SCs ALWAYS 1st...then DCs. Plain and simple. In my opinion...MCs just get u fast SKULK victories...which is ****. I like usin SCs cuz...well...its fun messin with people <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> PLUS...if i drop an RT at south loop...and an SC...all i have to do is sit there...save res for hive/RT at maint...and i wont have to worry about bein attacked.
ALSO...since im an ub3r "elite" gorge <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ....SCs at station access...or somewhere with a mini base...helps me be able to either RUN from attackin rines as a gorge...or kill them with web/spit combo...or...(if no 3rd hive) just runnin and spit.
OBVIOUSLY the only way to go is either SCs, DCs, MCs...or DCs, SCs, MCs....
I like prolonging marine defeat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, I think I hate you.
Alien wins with D first: 80%
Alien wins with S first: 30%<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOW! thats a crock of ****! lol
SCs ALWAYS 1st...then DCs. Plain and simple. In my opinion...MCs just get u fast SKULK victories...which is ****. I like usin SCs cuz...well...its fun messin with people <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> PLUS...if i drop an RT at south loop...and an SC...all i have to do is sit there...save res for hive/RT at maint...and i wont have to worry about bein attacked.
ALSO...since im an ub3r "elite" gorge <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ....SCs at station access...or somewhere with a mini base...helps me be able to either RUN from attackin rines as a gorge...or kill them with web/spit combo...or...(if no 3rd hive) just runnin and spit.
OBVIOUSLY the only way to go is either SCs, DCs, MCs...or DCs, SCs, MCs....
I like prolonging marine defeat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, I think I hate you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I second this motion!
Might I suggest you're deploying your movements wrong then?
First thing I do as a skulk is head directly to one of our other hives. That way I can scout relocates and have easy access to an RT if the marines are moving slowly. If the hive-mind calls for movement, I'm in a great place to put one down. Since hives are generally spread out evenly across the map, a movement in an unbuilt hive is good for three reasons..
1. The rest of the team might not have so far to run if the initial hive comes under attack.
2. My team finds it slightly easier to kill any marines that try and set up in the hive I'm in. (I try to put it near a good lerk point)
3. If I'm being pummelled, I can warp back to the main hive for healing, which denies them RFK, and saves me 10 res for having to evolve again.
SC can win you the game is they are immedialty set up in hotspots (double res in caged epescially), and from thre all places are well fortified with OC. but this will lead to a long drawn out win ending up with a TF in marine start.
MC howerver obliterates all. skulks become easily twice as good as any marine , not to mention the MC is practically a neccesity for fades/lerks.
Im not a bad comm - not great either (no mic dont help ) but in every game ive commed recently against SC (perhaps ten games , Sc not seen much anymore) we have won. THe iceing on the cake came on veil last time. we got a PG up to double res . and the other team complains that an Sc was dropped (1.04 anyone <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Immediatly we got one man in the two other hives PG,PG, obs, obs - 2 hive lockdown + double res + topo res + the one between pipes and topo in about 5 mins. The entiertyy of the laiens team attempted a orge / skulk /lerk attack against the 3 turrets + 3 marines in the central hive - they all were dead before i could type that they were there <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
game ended in 10 mins with res 8v2 from 10 sieges outide their hive - absolutly nothing they could do.
However I have ony won one gam against MC , and lost many (mostly to adren gorges/lerks in vents).
No one chamber is a "must" for ALL games and ALL teams.
Movement is better if you know what you're doing as a skulk. Sensory is better if you intend to hide on a small map. Defense is better if you have to fend off a shotgun rush.
By sticking to a "this ONE chamber always pweens" mentality you only set yourself and your team up for a massive fall.
After the initial “Wow, cool!” rush from sensory chambers, I find myself preferring the M/D/S route – defence is almost definitely needed by hive 2 for non-gorge healing and movement upgrades are just too good to pass up – I find the sensory upgrades are quite useless compared to what the other two chambers can offer. Adrenaline for lerks (and fades), all defensive upgrades for onos, celerity/silence for skulks and redemption (or upgrades of choice) for gorges – you don’t really need Scent of Fear, cloaking or pheromones to attack and kill. Good, fast skulk scouts should fulfil the SoF “wallhack” role instead.
The only redeeming factor for the sensory chamber, therefore, would have to come from its cloaking ability. That being said, I view cloaking as primarily a defensive attribute – I use it to hide healing stations, or use it to gain a second or two of time to close the distance between yourself and an unsuspecting marine. I don’t find it worth going without either defensive or movement upgrades against a skilled marine team. S/D lerks have energy problems, S/M onos have problems killing successfully without extra carapace or regeneration...but all M/D Kharaa lose out on are a wallhack and some temporary cloaking.
Im a godly skulk w/o the MC upgrades as it is.
And im more afraid of cloaked skulks then i am of faster ones or silent ones.
I personally like MC followed by DC. It allows Lerks to spam spores in the early game to hinder marines trying to build areas up, and skulks can speed around to whatever part of the map they're needed at. By the time second hive goes up, you should have a couple lerks or skulks that have racked up enough rfk to go Onos, and with DC they get to add Regen or Carapace to their Stomping to make them almost unstoppable to LA marines. This also makes them much more useful for dismantling marine outposts, since they can take the beating from the turrets long enough to get the TF down. Movement is also nice for an onos, again because you can get around quickly, and escape if you get into trouble.
Being invisible is definitely useful, and you can rack up alot of rfk by easily getting the jump on marine after marine. Scent of Fear is as useful for Kharaa as motion tracking is for Marines. The problem is, once marines get an outpost up and running with an obs, sensory doesn't do anything to help you destroy it. And from what i've experienced, shutting down marine expansion is a very important part of the Kharaa early game.
True story: I was playing on ns_bast yesterday, and someone built sensory first. We had engine hive, so I gorged and started securing refinery. With the help of a skulk and a couple well-placed SCs, we turned back several marine attacks while waiting for refinery hive.
I have no idea what the other six players on my team were doing, but somehow the marines built a phase gate right outside engine, and took down the hive. Not like a well-defended, turret-farmed base. Just a single phase gate. The first warning we had was when the hive started taking damage.
And, of course, everyone blamed sensory-first. Which is silly, because had anyone bothered to take SoF and stay near the hive, they might have noticed the marine rush. And had anyone built an SC (or any defenses, really) inside the hive, we might have been able to halt the rush. Had someone built a well-hidden SC in engine hive, we could have ninja-ed in to recapture the hive.
I think the problem with Sensory isn't that it's underpowered or whatever. It's that you need to play defensively with it. Which means working as a group (gorge + skulks) to <b>quickly</b> secure key parts of the map. You can't just spawn and go looking for marines to frag.
Alien wins with M first: 90%
Alien wins with D first: 80%
Alien wins with S first: 30%
WOW! thats a crock of ****! lol
SCs ALWAYS 1st...then DCs. Plain and simple. In my opinion...MCs just get u fast SKULK victories...which is ****. I like usin SCs cuz...well...its fun messin with people PLUS...if i drop an RT at south loop...and an SC...all i have to do is sit there...save res for hive/RT at maint...and i wont have to worry about bein attacked.
ALSO...since im an ub3r "elite" gorge ....SCs at station access...or somewhere with a mini base...helps me be able to either RUN from attackin rines as a gorge...or kill them with web/spit combo...or...(if no 3rd hive) just runnin and spit.
OBVIOUSLY the only way to go is either SCs, DCs, MCs...or DCs, SCs, MCs....
I like prolonging marine defeat
Wow, I think I hate you.
I second this motion! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
U gomers...dont be mad at me cuz u all suck ****
Sensory: Everyone has to admit that this IS a primarily defensive chamber. Although it has offensive priorities, what is it most often used for? Guarding/Ambushing. If you can get near the marine start without running into marines and putting a sensory there, such as a room like Laser Drilling, then you could say you've locked down one marine path early game(Considering you have actual attacking life forms accompanying the sensory). Although calling that an offensive tactic is stretching it.
Cloaking- One of the least used skills because all this does is give you what the chamber does-and the chamber does it a heck lot better. This is great for ambushes, and is probably the primary offensive trait. Unfortunately, without Scent of Fear, unless you have great sound and the marines aren't walking stealthily, you will have a hard time figuring out where to ambush someone.
Scent of Fear-Scouting intelligence that is great for setting up ambushes, which is why you need either a cloaked ally or a sensory chamber around. Or, you could do it the old fashioned way and stick to the roof and hope you won't be noticed.
Pheromones-This is like Scent of Fear, but it's not for you, it's for your friends. If there's a marine on the other side of the wall, and your friend is there too, he might see the trail left by the marine. Of course, he should hear the marine too, so this is more like a noob helper than anything else. Actually, it's pretty much useless.
Conclusion: Sensory is used to <i>stop marine expansion.</i> It is not used to stop marines once they are done expanding. In other words, if you let the marines lock down your hives, you didn't use the chamber right, and you're probably going to die.
Movement: The most offensive chamber. (No, I don't count Offense Chambers <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ) Primarily used to confuse or support.
Celerity-When marines see skulks with this, they become a little nervous. Excellent for melee combat, because it allows you to get close to marines faster, and allows you to dodge bullets easier. Very handy on gorges, provided the gorge is a reasonable distance from the marine and a corner or another haven of some sort. Also allows any alien to expand quickly early game.
Silence-The substitute for cloaking early game. This allows you to ambush marines in a different fashion, although you're much more easily detectable. However, silence strikes as much fear into marines as cloaking does, because sound is a marine's best friend. Besides Motion Tracking. Good only on skulks, but occassionally can save the gorge.
Adrenaline-If you're going to rush the marine base, this is what you're looking for. This allows you to spore spam and keep the marines holed up in their base, as well as giving gorges the ability to heal chambers nearly indefinetely. The primary use is for the spore spamming. VERY offensive early game.
Conclusion:This is the chamber for rushing. You hole them in with spores/adrenaline if they have turrets in their main base, if they don't you use celerity. If they do get out, hunt them down with silence.
Defense: Defensive chamber, who would have guessed that? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
This chamber is used to hold territory and for hit-and-run tactics, although spore-and-run is more viable. Great for suicide attacks, but early game, none of these tactics are very appealing. You don't have enough territory to hold, and skulks do poorly in hit-and-run because of their low hp. Suicide is the only rushing tactic this is chamber offers.
Carapace-Put this on a a gorge and make him a tank. Gorges are quite dangerous provided they have a good aim, as two spit hits will nearly match the damage of a skulk's bite. Great on skulks for suicide rushes early game. Doesn't do much on a lerk.
Regeneration-Makes the gorge a tank yet again. Allows lerks to do spore-and-run attacks. If a skulk survives an encounter, allows him to return to front lines quickly. This trait is used to repel marines from a desired location.
Redemption-As alien's specialty is expanding, this is not a trait you would normally want early game. The only time to consider this trait is if the marines are rushing your hive-you run out, take a bite, and teleport a few feet away safely under the hive. In three seconds, you rush again, instead of having to die like nothing. Sensory chamber, however, is still more useful as marines rushing your hive is considered expanding.
Conclusion:Defense is viable on lerks for spore-and-run, and decent on gorges, however it is not highly offensive nor defensive early game, making it less of a good choice for a first chamber.
I haven't played too many 2.0 games, but I'm a strategist, so I get a lot of thinking in on this. Please point out to me what I'm saying wrong...
Even worse than as a first chamber since you are denying yourself either regen/redemption onos or adrenaline lerks/fades/gorges.