I believe Mustard is 100% right. The only change that the game needs is to have marines start with the same amount of resources as the aliens do.
That way, marines tech as fast as aliens do. The game is balanced if both teams tech at the same rate.
Well, that and the fact that upon an onos redemption, it should drop the person it was digesting at the spot where it redeemed.
But I think that's all there is to it. No need for any 2.01a, b, or c. Frankly, I think those patches miss the point, which is that marines tech far slowly than aliens do, all because of a lack of resources that the aliens have a bounty of.
Just EVEN the starting resources so that marines start with [# of alien players] * 25. That's <b>all</b> there is to it.
I was playing on Readyroom's new server, and the marines won twice in a row. How?
Superior commanding by Mouse, and the almighty shotgun.
The first game was in tanith. Marines were doing great, we turret farmed waste hive, and had the double nodes in reactor.
Just then, the aliens got fusion hive up and a gorge was bile bombing reactor room from the vent above.
We haven't researched jet packs (who does?) and even the gl wasn't taking care of business.
Needless to say, thanks to a blinking fade who weakened our welding team, reactor room was lost.
For me, it felt like the marines slipped on the slippery slope, and the end was near.
But the commander had stockpiled quite a bit of res, and dropped numerous (10?) shotties in base. Everyone picked one up, but no one ramboed.
Thanks to someone who became our unofficial squad leader, we ran in a group to fusion.
Other than 3 d chambers under the hive, and a res node, the hive was completly deserted. In 5 seconds, the shotties had their way with the hive.
Now our squad leader wouldn't let us stay and fortify, no, we were to crush the aliens by quickly taking sat comm before they oc'd it to hell. So we all ran to sat, ignoring any alien res towers on the way.
Two of us stayed in the hallway leading to sat hive and built a phase for reinforcments, but it wasn't needed as the sat hive went down in seconds.
But the end buzzer wasn't going off, there was another hive. Turns out some gorges with plenty of res started up a hive in waste, right next to our farm.
We quickly ran to waste, destroying any res nodes on the way, killed a gorge trying to get fusion up, and destroyed waste, and the alien threat. It was a great game!
On my next game, with all the marines following orders of destroy all aliens res on sight, and turret farming to hell, the aliens stood little chance with their trickle of res.
Finally, HA and shotties anillated their last hive.
I think the marines are still losing a fair bit because they are not aggressive enough, turreting their spawn instead of key res nodes.
If a bile bombing gorge is making short work of the outpost, the best counter is to take a hive, and take away its ability. Most aliens strat expand like a balloon, full of air on the inside. Pretty much if you can get to a hive, its easy pickings.
Just keep playing 2.0 some more before nerfing aliens.
ermm having the rines start with 250 ress will produce a Shotgun rush ,which is possible already on some maps , and make it even easier, particularly on 10 vs 10 maps.
been playing 2.0c, its produced a swing to the other side, Where as marines used to lose 70% of the time in 2.0, they win 70% of the time in 2.0c due to a rush effect where the aliens get their hive camped quickly.
<!--QuoteBegin--Haunted+Aug 12 2003, 02:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Haunted @ Aug 12 2003, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Other than 3 d chambers under the hive, and a res node, the hive was completly deserted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stop right there.
If the alien team had any competence, they would have put up a wall of offense chambers of 4 at chemical processing and a few more at each hive.
Not only that, but they'd be sensible enough to block reactor room and west access corridor as to cut off the entire map. Maybe you guys did have waste handling, in which case, the aliens would have simply put OC's in chemical and central tunnels.
It sounds like nobody stayed gorge to block the choke points. That's the difference between what you were up against, and what Stoneburg has to deal with.
[EDIT] chemical reactor... ha, what was I thinking?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And another thing, at this point of the game, the marines are sill expected to be able to handle un-upgraded skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop. Because they won't be fighting non-upgraded skulks. 3 gorges will be dropping rts yes, but the other 3 players have gorged and dropped chambers at the hive. That means you're fighting skulks with silence, or celerity, or SOF, or cloaking, or carapace, or regen. Vanilla lvl 0 marines against those kind of foes don't match up; they will most likely die.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At this point of the game, these marines are expendable<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they're not. Each one of those marines represents cold hard resources that the alien team will immediatly put to use in a far better way than any res gained from killing gorges.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway, these marines should be able to get to a res node long before the gorge has finished building, and often before he is even finished evolving<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only when the gorge has been silly enough to build on a res node close to the marine base. Most hives have at least one or 2 expansion nodes: these will be where the rts will be and marines just can't move fast enough to get there in time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regardless, it will eventually be important for the marines to take a hive, thus later depriving the aliens of their two most important abilities: acid rocket and charge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect. Acid rocket and charge are useful, but bile bomb would be possibly the single most useful ability in the game: it spells doom for any marine outpost. Not to mention stomp on oni, or umbra on lerks, leap with skulks and metabolise on Fades. 2nd hive is where these game-ending skills come into play and you have to be playing against some really dumb aliens to lock down both hives in the first few minutes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the aliens don't have these, shotguns may be used exclusively for the rest of the game, and then it's just a matter of time before the marines can get fully teched up and get HA and then walk the map. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens can counter shotguns with spores, spikes, silence, cloaking, stomp, blink, celerity, leap and even spit <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> And this teching must be going off one res node right? because all your other nodes (if you even managed to get some) are now dead thanks to bile bomb/umbra assaults. Also said teching won't even get off the group: 2 hive aliens will pound your base into oblivian long before that 1st HA suit comes out.
Sorry man but if those tactics are working then you're fighting newbie aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stop. Because they won't be fighting non-upgraded skulks. 3 gorges will be dropping rts yes, but the other 3 players have gorged and dropped chambers at the hive. That means you're fighting skulks with silence, or celerity, or SOF, or cloaking, or carapace, or regen. Vanilla lvl 0 marines against those kind of foes don't match up; they will most likely die. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop. There is no way that the entire team is going to gorge, <i>and even if they did</i>, then there would be no skulks to stop the initial marine rush. Please read before posting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No they're not. Each one of those marines represents cold hard resources that the alien team will immediatly put to use in a far better way than any res gained from killing gorges. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh my, what are we talking about here? Maybe 6-8 res total? No big deal at all. And more valuable than the death of the gorges? OMG, are you on crack?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Only when the gorge has been silly enough to build on a res node close to the marine base. Most hives have at least one or 2 expansion nodes: these will be where the rts will be and marines just can't move fast enough to get there in time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, I doubt it. Marines sprinting from the start of the bell will get to nearly any part of the map by the time the gorges started building.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Incorrect. Acid rocket and charge are useful, but bile bomb would be possibly the single most useful ability in the game: it spells doom for any marine outpost.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 shotgun shells will quickly take care of that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2nd hive is where these game-ending skills come into play and you have to be playing against some really dumb aliens to lock down both hives in the first few minutes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, sorry, but that is incorrect. Without ranged weapons, the aliens are forced to engage the marines where they are strongest: with the shotgun. Not even fades last more than a 2 seconds under that fire.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens can counter shotguns with spores, spikes, silence, cloaking, stomp, blink, celerity, leap and even spit And this teching must be going off one res node right? because all your other nodes (if you even managed to get some) are now dead thanks to bile bomb/umbra assaults. Also said teching won't even get off the group: 2 hive aliens will pound your base into oblivian long before that 1st HA suit comes out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you are obviously convinced that marines have no chance. With that attitude, it's no wonder you can't win with them..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sorry man but if those tactics are working then you're fighting newbie aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like you are the one who has been playing with n00bs. Each of your arguments are weak, and it sounds like you are only repeating what you have read elsewhere.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stop. There is no way that the entire team is going to gorge, <i>and even if they did</i>, then there would be no skulks to stop the initial marine rush. Please read before posting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is thread is talking about 10 vs 10 games discussion of 6 vs 6 is largely irrelevant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh my, what are we talking about here? Maybe 6-8 res total? No big deal at all. And more valuable than the death of the gorges? OMG, are you on crack?!?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes while if the entire marine team rushes together they can take out a gorge or two and maybe an rt or two, the aliens decentralized resource pool + the res for kills system makes this a joke as the 2nd alien hive is almost guaranteed to be going up by the 3:30-4 minute mark regardless of whether you kill their rts or not. The fact that this is far faster than the marines can develop equipment to counter only compounds the problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Um, I doubt it. Marines sprinting from the start of the bell will get to nearly any part of the map by the time the gorges started building.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While this is true the aliens can do this much faster and respond to attacks much more quickly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2 shotgun shells will quickly take care of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except when it is one of your rts not inside your spawn or one with a vent or one where they actually have umbra and teammate support in a concerted effort to win rather than the aliens just running wily nilly about the map playing sloppyily because they are so used to winning.
A gorge in a vent with adrenaline can outdamage two people repairing with welders and can only be hit with a grenade launcher which at the absolute minimum will be coming out at around 3:45 by which time the second hive will be going up and it is not feasible to have a gl at every single rt or marine outpost on the map with a vent on it.
A gorge with umbra can pretty much destroy any marine outpost before they have a chance to react (ala Lerk umbra phase gate gorge stands on it and bilebombs it to death then finish off turrets), much less if the whole alien team actually works together instead of just two people.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, you are obviously convinced that marines have no chance. With that attitude, it's no wonder you can't win with them.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines can win with a shotgun rush on the hive as soon as the map starts if aliens can't/don't bother to put up an effective defense or actually have the basic scouting skills to see them coming. Marines can win if aliens don't ruthless press the numerous advantages that they have both tactically and economically.
But if you pit an excellent marine team against an excellent alien team the aliens will win far more often. At the moment we are dancing way too close to the 1.04 balance of Aliens can't win marines can only lose, only the exact reserve.
As Minstrel and others have pointed out, this is 10vs10 not 6vs6 or 2vs2. It was also mentioned that several of the problems are directly related to the player number, so any examples using 6vs6 are useless and irrelevant. A few points though:
Gorges dying? So what? I do one of three things at the start of the round as alien: - Gorge up and drop a M chamber, then either go back to skulk, drop an OC or find some other gorges to stick with. - Run to a node, Gorge up, drop a res node, immediatly go back to skulk (evolve if people are dead, suicide if people ar enot) - Get celerity/silence and save for hive (meaning: kill as many Marines as I can)
The absolute worst thing that could happen would be a Marine coming round the corner *just* as I drop a RT and killing me, then killing the RT. This will be a *personal* net loss of 25 res for me, if the Marine actually manages to kill the RT which is unlikely (I'd give him 1:5 odds). Actually the Marine would have to be hiding at the res node since I wouldn't drop it if I heard him coming.. which means he would have had to run there immediatly at round start to beat me to it.
Anyway, lost track there. What I am saying is that losing a gorge means almost nothing in most situations, other then 1-3 res extra for marines. The exceptions being losing the gorge that is about to put up the hive, which could delay the start of the hive as much as one minute. But that doesn't happen, or at least hasn't happened yet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no way that the entire team is going to gorge<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is true. Usually everyone except 2 or 3 gores gorge, while th erest save for hive/onos. The person who hits 43 res first puts up th ehive, the other keeps saving for Onos. This usually ensures you have a 2:nd hive going up after 3-4 mins and an Onos coming up shortly after the 2:nd hive is finished (you don't want the Onos sooner anyway because he needs D.) Of course almost noone *stays* gorge, you gorge up, do your thing and go back to skulking most of the time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines sprinting from the start of the bell will get to nearly any part of the map by the time the gorges started building.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True true, and these are the games we all "Forced relocations" or "GG" 2 minutes into the game, since a couple of skulks will invariably show up in Marine base which is undefended. Actually, you seem to assume that Marine base will never be attacked. No-where do you mention the need either for base guards (which will limit your effectiveness on the field) or static defense in base (which will slow your expansion).
As for your example of tanith I haven't seen an alien team that doesn't realise th eimportance of Cargo and Chem for at least 4 months. I have actually not played a single game on tanith where there *hasn't* been at least a couple of OC's up in Cargo 1 minute into the game. Usually Aliens put up defenses in 2 of the three hot spots, Cargo, RR and Chem.
Marines are winning a bit more now, maybe 25% of the games and this is due to these factors: - Marine team gets stacked. The best players tend to chose Marines more often since it is just too easy to play Alien. I personally feel "cheap" playing Alien. - Marines are doing everything they can to win, using an extreme amount of teamwork, while Aliens are getting lazy from getting "free" wins all the time.
I'm happy that 2.0 has brought out teamwork from Marines. Frankly it was lacking in 1.04 because of the ease with which Marine could win most maps and their initial strength. Unfortunately the awesome development in teamwork that Aliens had, in order to counter this, has been dilluted by 2.0, since only a minimal amount is needed. As an example, I think it was on Origin, Marines were about to do something "big" like sieging a hive or someting and one alien was screaming for us (I was alien for once) to get there. I just said "Doesn't really matter, we will win anyway even if they do succeed". There was a second of silence and then a murmur of consent.
<!--QuoteBegin--Anavrin+Aug 12 2003, 09:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anavrin @ Aug 12 2003, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only change that the game needs is to have marines start with the same amount of resources as the aliens do.
That way, marines tech as fast as aliens do. The game is balanced if both teams tech at the same rate.
Frankly, I think those patches miss the point, which is that marines tech far slowly than aliens do, all because of a lack of resources that the aliens have a bounty of.
Just EVEN the starting resources so that marines start with [# of alien players] * 25. That's <b>all</b> there is to it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont think you grasp the way the res system differs from the Mairnes to the Aliens!
So i'll say this to you in words you can understand!
The Marines have 1 POT, all the RES goes into that POT, 1 Person (commander) can use that RES, everyone else can't! So every Res tower that the marines get gives the commander the exact amount of res it takes!
The Kharaa share Res, all that res goes into 1 Pot, but all the aliens have to take the exact same amount of res at the same time! So if there are 8 aliens each kharaa will get res much slower because they have to share it!
Now if your whining about Res for Kills, thats a different story. If anything its unfair to the Kharaa, every kill the Marines get they ALL get the res, becasue it goes to the team! When a Kharaa gets a RFK only that 1 alien gets the res, not the team!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"marines start with the same amount of resources as the aliens do."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So do you mean that both teams only have 25 res to start and only 1 alien gets that res, or that the marine team gets the equal amount of all the res the Kharaa have each... Either way, thats just a stupid **** IDEA and you have no clue what your talking about!
Learn how things work first before you talk about making changes you have no idea about! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh my, what are we talking about here? Maybe 6-8 res total? No big deal at all. And more valuable than the death of the gorges? OMG, are you on crack?!? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those 6 - 8 res represent a faster 2nd hive. If one alien got those kills, he's now gotten a quarter of the needed res for the hive. Gorges dying? Oh no. Most of them are going back to skulks anyway, in fact you just saved them 2 res <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Say by perchance you do get one of the gorges who was going to stay gorge, does't matter, one of his other buddies will take up the role.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Um, I doubt it. Marines sprinting from the start of the bell will get to nearly any part of the map by the time the gorges started building. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What Stoneburg said
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2 shotgun shells will quickly take care of that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What Minstrel Knight said
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once again, sorry, but that is incorrect. Without ranged weapons, the aliens are forced to engage the marines where they are strongest: with the shotgun. Not even fades last more than a 2 seconds under that fire. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you assume that the marines are strongest in meele combat? LA-marines, even shotgun armed, can be easily taken down by silent or cloaked skulks. You also seem to be completly ignoring the lerk, and an adrenaline lerk is not something to be taken lightly. You wanna have your whole team on shotguns? Fine, lerks will gas or spike you down. Also, those shotguns do cost res, and holding onto res is extreamly difficult once 2 hives pops us.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, you are obviously convinced that marines have no chance. With that attitude, it's no wonder you can't win with them.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe that the marines are DEFENITLY going to lose, but unless the alien team makes some serious errors the aliens are going to win. Whenever you have a fluid, well co-ordinated alien team working together the marines are doomed. If you think that the reason marine's lose is all about "attitude" then think again. I go into every marine game full of hope, trying every time to get the most out of the team and just try for victory. It doesn't happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sounds like you are the one who has been playing with n00bs. Each of your arguments are weak, and it sounds like you are only repeating what you have read elsewhere.
Play some more, then come back and talk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your ""elite"" strats have already been cut to shreds by others as well. I have experianced good alien sides and good marine sides first hand and I've watched marine defeats over and over again. Your strats have been tried, and they won't work against a skilled alien side. I've been playing NS solidly since 1.0 was released and been actively involving in the Australian clan ladder since then as well. I've played NS for at least as long as you have and I play against the best players in Australia on the servers I frequent. If you have some demos of your tactics working then please share them with us because they DO NOT WORK against the kind of players myself and people like Stoneburg are up against.
<!--QuoteBegin--=US-cobra-V=+Aug 12 2003, 09:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (=US-cobra-V= @ Aug 12 2003, 09:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ok, first of all, i never saw a movement as first upgrade. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> you've never seen celerity skulks ravage entire marine teams. a single celery skulk has a 50/50 chance of taking out 2-3 lmg marines. The way I see it, the aliens have an immense advantage because A) The aliens can do all four RTS strats simultaneously - Rushing, Teching, Expanding, and Turtling (defense). B) The marines can only do one or two at the most simultaneously. C) Marines are quite capable of dealing with alien rushes, teching, expansion, and turtling, but unfortunately can only address one or at most two at a time. *edit* which ends up turning into a vicious cycle since the marines invariably get crushed because even while they are winning offensively, they are losing on one of the other aspects of the game - res, tech, map control. It just seems that the aliens can cover all their bases but marines can't.
<!--QuoteBegin--Never+Aug 10 2003, 01:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Never @ Aug 10 2003, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Trojan2+Aug 10 2003, 10:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trojan2 @ Aug 10 2003, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OMG, for the love of all that is good, Marines dont suck, Maps arent all aliens freindly (especialy hera, Its my fav map to command on) and marines DONT NEED ALIENS TO BE NERFED TO WIN!!!!1111
You need to expand more, canter your strats to denying res to aliens and tech up or farm the map. I dont get it, I hardly ever lose when I command and I onyl comm on pubs. This isent v1.4 and you have to adjust your tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that post = win <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed! sick to death of people cry that aliens always thats pure BS.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--BreakfastSausages+Aug 12 2003, 04:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BreakfastSausages @ Aug 12 2003, 04:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I strongly beleive that the most important change is to lower the alien starting res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortunately, with RFK being part of the game the starting alien res must allow them to go gorge and build a RT right from the start. Otherwise, marines would just turtle up, with extreme defensive tactics, until the aliens got enough res to start building RT's.
In an 12v12 game and one RT, aliens receive exactly one res per minute. Cutting starting res to 10, as you propose, would allow the marines 15(!) minutes when they KNOW the aliens can't build any res, as long as no marine dies.
Sorry, alien res can't be lowered below (gorge+RT) cost.
<!--QuoteBegin---Saj-+Aug 12 2003, 02:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Saj- @ Aug 12 2003, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Never+Aug 10 2003, 01:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Never @ Aug 10 2003, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Trojan2+Aug 10 2003, 10:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trojan2 @ Aug 10 2003, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OMG, for the love of all that is good, Marines dont suck, Maps arent all aliens freindly (especialy hera, Its my fav map to command on) and marines DONT NEED ALIENS TO BE NERFED TO WIN!!!!1111
You need to expand more, canter your strats to denying res to aliens and tech up or farm the map. I dont get it, I hardly ever lose when I command and I onyl comm on pubs. This isent v1.4 and you have to adjust your tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that post = win <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed! sick to death of people cry that aliens always thats pure BS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. I'm one of the few that thinks marines are overpowered. The only thing keeping them on a leash is the reliance on a good commander, and they're rare. But every game I've played with a good commander results in a marine landslide.
<!--QuoteBegin--Monkeybonk+Aug 12 2003, 02:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Monkeybonk @ Aug 12 2003, 02:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Agreed. I'm one of the few that thinks marines are overpowered. The only thing keeping them on a leash is the reliance on a good commander, and they're rare. But every game I've played with a good commander results in a marine landslide. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, right. Are you also one of the few who thought 1.04 was fine balance-wise and aliens then were just too stupid to realize the "mystical" and easy winning strategies? People heavily underestimate clanners by thinking they're just "stupid powergaming exploiters" when in fact they show the future of public play... At least they did in 1.04.
<!--QuoteBegin--Majin+Aug 12 2003, 06:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Majin @ Aug 12 2003, 06:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Marines have 1 POT, all the RES goes into that POT, 1 Person (commander) can use that RES, everyone else can't! So every Res tower that the marines get gives the commander the exact amount of res it takes! The Kharaa share Res, all that res goes into 1 Pot, but all the aliens have to take the exact same amount of res at the same time! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really?! No way!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now if your whining about Res for Kills, thats a different story. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't recall ever typing about anything regarding res for kills, but maybe you see things in people's posts that I simply don't have the gift of seeing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So do you mean that both teams only have 25 res to start and only 1 alien gets that res, or that the marine team gets the equal amount of all the res the Kharaa have each... Either way, thats just a stupid **** IDEA and you have no clue what your talking about!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, let me explain this s-l-o-w-l-y, just for you. From my post:
> The only change that the game needs is to have marines start with the same amount of resources as the aliens do.
In a 10 v 10, aliens start with 250 res, divided up. Marines start with 100 res. In pure numbers, marines can build 5 RT's and be out of resources, assuming they don't build IPs, armoury, or anything else. On the other hand, aliens can get 3 chambers, leaving 190 res, which can then be used to capture 7 RT's, and then have some of the people who went gorge to stay gorge for 8 or 9. You run out of nozzles to capture.
> That way, marines tech as fast as aliens do. The game is balanced if both teams tech at the same rate.
Assuming marines start with 100 res, they have to place 2 IPs, 1 armoury, and at least 2 RT's. Or 1 RT and a couple of shotguns or upgrades. In which case, they're depleted of resources and cannot tech any further. Aliens on the other hand, have 8 or so Rt's to support them. Let's say marines get lucky and take out 2 of the RT's, and miraculously build them both... thus 6 resource towers for aliens and 3 for humans. That still means a second hive goes up at 4:00. Marines on the other hand, will maybe be able to upgrade the armoury at 4:30, which will be finished at 7:30. By that time, the second hive is up, and bile bombs will erase the outposts.
> Frankly, I think those patches miss the point, which is that marines tech far slowly than aliens do, all because of a lack of resources that the aliens have a bounty of.
See above.
> Just EVEN the starting resources so that marines start with [# of alien players] * 25. That's all there is to it.
OK, there's this little thing called mathematics, popular amongst the Greeks, Egyptians, and Babylonians. And one simple item is this thing called multiplication. Now, we both know that marines have a shared resource pool, right? Good. So, in a 10v10, [# of alien players] = 10. Referring to the above formula, and substituting the 10 into the variable, you'd get 10 * 25 = 250. Next, it says "marines start with ...."
Put the two together and you get... "Marines start with 250 resources in a 10v10 game" to keep up the tech with aliens who have the second hive started at 3:30.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Learn how things work first before you talk about making changes you have no idea about! ???<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can both agree that this speaks for itself.
[EDIT] OK, now that I've read over my post and calmed down a bit, I think it best for you to not get personal with your replies by assuming that I have no clue how to play NS 2.0. I assume everyone else has played NS 2.0 long enough to try commanding, gorging, and overall butt kicking, and know the quirks of each option (guns, upgrades, chambers, etc..) down to the exact cost/increase in dmg/armour/speed. Now, I'm going to assume you know the mechanics of NS 2.0, and I'll stop assuming that you have no idea how ridiculously quick the aliens can tech, unless you go on record to say otherwise. In turn, I'd suggest you try and read a bit of what other people write, because they may actually have tried all known solutions before coming to the forums to "whine" (at least some people call it that.)
Most importantly, if you don't understand the ideas that are offered, do not just tell others "you need to learn how things work" because for ****'s sakes, they would not be offering their ideas if they didn't. Instead, ask them to elaborate or, ****, just give a constructive reply. I certainly hope you can be a bit more mature, because the last thing I want to see myself involved is a flame-thread, in which I readily took your flame bait. In turn, I'll stop the personal attacks and the cocky sarcasm myself. I certainly do not care enough about your opinions to get all riled over, and you certainly should not care what I think enough to look immature in front of the world either. Lastly, there's no need to repeatedly use exclamation marks or question marks, especially not in a series of them!!!!! It's almost like typing in all capitals.
1) Marines are FINE they way they are. If you say they're overpowered, then you haven't been playing the games I have. I had marine teams with REALLY REALLY good people that lose HORRIBLY to totally substandard aliens. Completely random people on the alien team beat down CLANNERS on the marines. It does NOT MAKE SENSE! I am going around with an inhumanly organized marine team.....and we LOSE to people that absolutely get POUNDED all the freakin time on the aliens. Yet, we still lose in the end. The situation was similar to Stoneburg's predicament, except the ratios weren't so.....extreme.
2) There obviously has to be changes made to restore balance. I find NS 2.0 to be extremely fun at the moment, but it's at the cost of balance. The balance went to **** for the sake of fun. I can appreciate what the devs were trying to do there, but as you can see, it kinda screwed over the whole thing.
I just want to support the claim that the individuals that play on the Cofr server are of much better quality than 90% of the NS servers out there. For all purposes, the regulars on the server play as a clan does. It would take on hell of a marine team to beat a team of Alien CoFR server regulars, not mention a catastrophic screw up on the part of the aliens. <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't think there is that much wrong with the current version.
The main problems for the marines are...
<b>Onoses limiting marine mobility.</b>
On the alien side I think the Onos/Devour+Redemption problem needs to be fixed. I think Devour should stay. If the onos redeems then the marine escapes unharmed. Onos are limiting the movement of the marines on the map. Marine games tend to be camp outs behind the turrets to avoid losing essential equipment. Hampering the onoses ability to devour effectively under hvy fire will help to give the marines mobility in the field mid to end game. I think this is what has created somewhat of an illusion of increased teamwork, as it has now just become a matter of survival to stay close to a lot of guns/turrets. In some ways this is good. I like the 'moving together' feel, but sometimes you just want to break out and sneak into a hive. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>The ' alien res rush'.</b>
The aliens start with more res. Adjust the starting res of the marines to allow fast deployments, quick upgrades, counter-chamber measures (ie. observatories) and the ability for the commander to back his troops up from the start with health and ammo in the field. I'd like to see an equal amount on each side.
How I'd like to see alien play adjusted is by putting the aliens onto the 'back foot' slightly. That's a cricket term, btw. If the marines are more mobile and deadly in the initial stages of the game, then grouping of the aliens will become more necessary. Two gorges and a skulk would be required to garrison the initial resource towers, something along those lines anyway. This would limit the amount of res that could be capped early in the game, slowing down the alien development.
<b>Timing of the upgrades.</b>
This could be the most critical issue. The upgrades are cutting in a little too late atm, for the marines to be in good postition to use them. Sure you can take the ground, but can you hold it in time for HA/Hvy weapons? This problem could be solved by allocating more res at the start.
<b>Whatever happened to the mine?.</b>
One of the most heavily used items of 1.04 now seems to have been dropped from the commanders toolkit. The commander is too strapped for cash at the start to buy them and by the time he does have the cash, he doesnt need them. Make them cheaper and/or give the comm more res at the start to buy them.
As you can see I have pushed my own solution of more res at the start for the commander. I think it relates to what Stoneburg was saying about a 'great' marine side getting beaten by an 'random' alien side I think its due to the lack of any real pressure on the aliens to perform at the start. If they were under a stricter time scale or greater vulnerability, they might be forced to pull their socks up.
usually the problem starts at the beginning of the game when every alien player turns gorge and start running amok and placing/securing res chambers (that's usually what I keep seeing on all servers.) so you might also want to increase the gestation time for gorges.
Heres kind of a rant and kind of an example of how marines win games. I just played a game on GTW St.Lewis. I started on alien and the game began. The map was ns_tanith and we started with fusion hive. I went gorge and capped the resource node directly outside of our hive, expecting my team to do the same elsewhere. To my despair not a single other person goes gorge until the entire team is in reactor room, obviously admiring the pretty graphics as only one person goes gorge to cap the res. Sad to enter the room and see a marine kill the gestating alien while six skulks are sitting beside the nodes waiting for them to magically appear. Slowly but surely the marines seccure the map. They turret farm reactor room and head to waste. I run to defend the open hive location to ensure the marines dont lock it down. After a few marine kills i respawn and put down two movement chambers with the sparce resources i have. Note this was probably at least 8 minutes into the game. At this time im told by one of my teammates that the marines have sat comm locked down. Frustrated i tell someone to finish the last movement chamber and put up waste. Upon arriving at waste i look at the scoreboard and see two of my teammates as fades. I tell them that next time it would be a better idea to put up the hive instead of going fade. One of them tells me to shut up and that they can do what they want because its a public game. Of course the next thing i see is this person charge into a group of marines and die almost instantly. The marines easily procede into waste and lock it down, since we had no resources for defences due to everyone saving for a higher lifeform. Needless to say we lost this game when the HA started rolling off the assembly line. I guess some things these people have to experience, like not being able to end the game as a hive1 onos.
I dont know why this is such a huge discussion? It is pretty obvious just from what Anavrin has said, that he has put forth a good amount of support for his opinion. He has gone through to describe even the most minute details. I have been playing Natural Selection since it first came out and to be honest don't play on pubs. I only play on clans because I want to actually play good people. I have led in marine kills on clan servers. One time I killed 3 onoses only to have them all come back. If you kill HA, they don't come back as easily. I think we all know how much the aliens celebrate when they kill an HA with a HMG. Marines however, when they kill an onos, they know that the aliens probably are getting resources out of the wazoo and have another one coming. I play both aliens and marines, but am best at marines. Aliens are way too easy to play. Seriously, two chomps on a marine and theyre dead. Especially since now you can cloak right off the bat. It takes are while for marines to get the movement sensors. And even then you can just stay still. Without getting into more, how aliens are better, because Anavrin has done a good job. And don't tell me you dont here "WOW, THE MARINES FINALLY WON A GAME" or "IT IS GOOD TO SEE THE MARINES FINALLY WON A GAME". If haven't ever heard this in a game, you must be playing another half-life mod. I hear this all the time on Clan servers. I will give you, that many times commanders will be bad, and do stupid things like wasting RS's on turret factories at start. That is how you know someone who usually plays on a PUB server joined the CLAN server. That is about it. Since aliens can have multiple gorges, they get a lot of resources, and since your on a clan server, they defend them correctly. Even if you get one down, there are so many others. The main point I am trying to get across is this, it is much easier to play as aliens than marines. Aliens take less skill to play, i was doing fine just saving up for onos, not getting any upgrades. Espeicially when you rack up the kills. You are flowing in resources. Marines have to wait forever to get their upgrades. And there is nothing that is good against onos. Even with jetpacks and average player can just jump + devour. Oops there goes resources that will take marines forever to get back, because one alien can go solo and destroy an RT very easily, while marines have to go in a group. And rt's are hard to come by for a marine. Once you get the RT you have to heavily fortify it with turrets, and I have never seen a commander perfectly place the turrets to cover the RT and the TF. Aliens always get into the wall and bite, or hide behind something and chomp away, or they just take down one turret, and ruin the defense. The alien turrets are not easy to kill. You just place it behind a wall so a marine has to expose himself in order to attack the offense tower. And they kill the marines so darn fast. Not to mention gorge #6 is there to add extra fire power. By the time you spend all the resource to either siege, or get marines in there to attack, reinforcements come, because aliens can travel so fast, and always seem to kill the guys who are suppose to be covering you while you attack, if you don't die from the turrets. Also, in the large games I have played. Aliens get 4 skulks with cloak that just stay outside marine base, and kill them as they try to go out. It holds them off long enough for the aliens to get their resource towers up, and start getting the serious RS's. That is about it. Please reply and tell me how incredibly stupid you think I am. And further try to degrade my credibility by saying I have no clue what I am talking about. Or by saying I play in servers where people are noobs or by saying the clans aren't any good that I play with.
I have to admit, I was one of the naysayers before, but if you really want to talk about the balance of NS, you have to play on one of the pretty good servers. I've found four or five of them with acceptable ping to me and I'm sure there's more out there.
It's still a pub, in that all comers are welcome and they're not all clan members all the time, but almost everyone knows what they're doing at least fairly well. On these servers, marine victories are few and far between and generally depend on very high skilled marines coupled with alien blunders (or stacked vs. random pub people). What someone else said about the marines is right. If you fail your first push, that's pretty much it. Hive 2 is already up and establishing a new forward base is next to impossible.
I've seen games where the comms have been striking every alien hive left and right, bringing them down one after the other with sieges and feints, and the aliens just get the guy with the most res (from feeding off the base, generally) to throw up the hive immediately. I think it's a lot of fun and makes for a dynamic game, but it's a little repetitive seeing the same victory outcome again and again. If the first push peters out or is met with a significant obstacle at a point (wasting minutes of your time), the aliens are on the path to victory and are very, very tough to derail.
Flayra's playing around in the right area with 2.01c (although the changes aren't necessarily the best), which is alien mobility. You can't match a team that can strike anywhere and adapt its members within 30 seconds to fit any problem. Marines can theoretically attack gorges at the beginning to disrupt the economy, but the early skulks that come to your base will be able to take down your base guard if there's three (which there usually are) and you run the risk of losing it all. Skulks, on the other hand, have little fear of leaving their base unguarded because they can get back there before you realize you've shot the hive.
Additionally, marine res is worth more than alien res. One alien RT down means that one alien may have wasted his ability to fade or onos as fast. However, one failed marine RT with defense or with electrify is equivalent to several shottie marines with an upgrade that would affect the entire team.
I think this is how it should be, but it definitely needs to be balanced somehow if marines are to have a real competitive edge. The standard, average, everyday Joe pub, let's face it, is going to determine victory by the skill of the players and the luck of the draw. That's not to say balance isn't an issue there, but the margin of error is much greater. Something to make it harder or less desirable for n00bs to do their jobs (i.e. no one wants to go gorge if you can only skulk again back at the hive like in 2.01c), that's a negative change. A couple of armor points or some damage changes here and there, OTOH, probably won't be a huge deal.
G-Fresh, i can't believe the marines got that much of a hold. Even if people didn't gorge. Of course this is public game, much different from clan. Still, the skulks could have just attack all the marines while they tried to put up the turret farm. Just focus everything on killing the marines or if there are already turrets, take donw the turret factory. This is just a case where the aliens weren't any good. The commander on the marines obviously knew what he was doing too, if he farmed. What we are trying to discuss, is if aliens and marines are of both equal skill, aliens will have the upperhand. In times where marines conquer. The marines are usually made up of CS experts that switched to NS, and have been playing ever since it came out. For marines to win however, there MUST be a good commander. Without that, unless the people who aren't commanding have a team leader that takes them from objective to objective, they will lose. I have found out, marines win all the time when. There is a good commander, and there is someone outside the commander role who keeps all the marines on the objective, and has good aim so one incoming skulk doesn't kill 2-3 marines, even if skulk is cloaked and gets them by surprise. The only other time the marines will win, is when the aliens have extremely bad gorges. Even noobs when do what their told can help out being a gorge. You just tell them where to go, or have them build some offense towers while you cap, or have them save up for hives. You can also find a small role for an alien noob to play and have him still contribute. I know I make it sound easy, but noobs tend to listen more to someone they think has the hang of it. Because they want to win. I have played on pubs before where people dont listen. If you stick to a plan though, and tell them orders. They tend to listen. Especially if you get other people who know what they are doing yelling at them to do it. Most of the time, however. People can be stupid as aliens, because you usually get another gorge capping the resources. This is obviously a game that doesn't happen all the time. And is not a good examply of a REAL game. I know the marines won, but not because the aliens didn't play up to their full potential. If both aliens and marines play to their full potential. Aliens will have the upperhand, unless of course the marines get lucky.
Didn't Flayra already say that the Marines were underpowered (Or was it that the aliens are overpowered?) and had the recent Tournament matches underline that proclamation and emboss it? Aliens won 9 out of 10 in clan matches. NINE OUT OF TEN.
NS 2.0 sucks. It is frustrating to play as marine and I don’t like being alien because they make it frustrating to be a marine.
All I keep reading is marines need to rush the hive to win. What is the point of the proto lab and arms lab or any of the marine structures if only way for the marines to win is to rush the hive <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Just take all the marine structures out and have us all start with full ammo and shot guns. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Playing with clans is just boring. 1 match and you know who will win the rest. Playing on pub you used to never know what team will win. It was the one with the most team work.
Now all the aliens need to do is keep the marines bogged down defending a base WHERE EVER YOU PUT IT. Team work or no team work this will work. Few will gorge and rest will want to rush the base any how. 1 good skull can eat a whole squad of marines. This is not hard on a public server when you have at least 9 other aliens. You keep them boged down and they cant beat aliens in tech Ie onos. Wait for the Onos. Then the marine framing begins where it turns into how many times can I run in to there base devour a marine and get redeemed. Was all they play testing done with 5v5 clan match teams <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here is my 2 cents: I would not mind the clocking if they would drop the radius WAY DOWN. All aliens structures need to cost a lot more. Take away that kill enemies for res crap. If you want a faster game GO play CS! Take devour out it adds NOTHING to the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Souleron+Aug 13 2003, 04:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Souleron @ Aug 13 2003, 04:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NS 2.0 sucks. It is frustrating to play as marine and I don’t like being alien because they make it frustrating to be a marine.
All I keep reading is marines need to rush the hive to win. What is the point of the proto lab and arms lab or any of the marine structures if only way for the marines to win is to rush the hive <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Just take all the marine structures out and have us all start with full ammo and shot guns. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Playing with clans is just boring. 1 match and you know who will win the rest. Playing on pub you used to never know what team will win. It was the one with the most team work.
Now all the aliens need to do is keep the marines bogged down defending a base WHERE EVER YOU PUT IT. Team work or no team work this will work. Few will gorge and rest will want to rush the base any how. 1 good skull can eat a whole squad of marines. This is not hard on a public server when you have at least 9 other aliens. You keep them boged down and they cant beat aliens in tech Ie onos. Wait for the Onos. Then the marine framing begins where it turns into how many times can I run in to there base devour a marine and get redeemed. Was all they play testing done with 5v5 clan match teams <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here is my 2 cents: I would not mind the clocking if they would drop the radius WAY DOWN. All aliens structures need to cost a lot more. Take away that kill enemies for res crap. If you want a faster game GO play CS! Take devour out it adds NOTHING to the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> devour is a countermessure for HA <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, its more of a counter if you take in the damn redemption ability because you can take out a HA, HMG and afew chocolate marines (i prefer chocolate than vanilla <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> ) before you demp back to the hive. all of this osting the rines around 50 res if you include the res you give to the aliens(i havent been comm for a while so i cant remember the prices). And thats alot of res to lose fo rthe marines with no loss to the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--Capt. Proton+Aug 13 2003, 05:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Capt. Proton @ Aug 13 2003, 05:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, its more of a counter if you take in the damn redemption ability because you can take out a HA, HMG and afew chocolate marines (i prefer chocolate than vanilla <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> ) before you demp back to the hive. all of this osting the rines around 50 res if you include the res you give to the aliens(i havent been comm for a while so i cant remember the prices). And thats alot of res to lose fo rthe marines with no loss to the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the redeem while devouring isn't fair, but i don't have a prob with devour itself.
its a countermessure. just like HA is a counter for spores and HMG for onos,.............
Comments
That way, marines tech as fast as aliens do. The game is balanced if both teams tech at the same rate.
Well, that and the fact that upon an onos redemption, it should drop the person it was digesting at the spot where it redeemed.
But I think that's all there is to it. No need for any 2.01a, b, or c. Frankly, I think those patches miss the point, which is that marines tech far slowly than aliens do, all because of a lack of resources that the aliens have a bounty of.
Just EVEN the starting resources so that marines start with [# of alien players] * 25. That's <b>all</b> there is to it.
Superior commanding by Mouse, and the almighty shotgun.
The first game was in tanith. Marines were doing great, we turret farmed waste hive, and had the double nodes in reactor.
Just then, the aliens got fusion hive up and a gorge was bile bombing reactor room from the vent above.
We haven't researched jet packs (who does?) and even the gl wasn't taking care of business.
Needless to say, thanks to a blinking fade who weakened our welding team, reactor room was lost.
For me, it felt like the marines slipped on the slippery slope, and the end was near.
But the commander had stockpiled quite a bit of res, and dropped numerous (10?) shotties in base. Everyone picked one up, but no one ramboed.
Thanks to someone who became our unofficial squad leader, we ran in a group to fusion.
Other than 3 d chambers under the hive, and a res node, the hive was completly deserted. In 5 seconds, the shotties had their way with the hive.
Now our squad leader wouldn't let us stay and fortify, no, we were to crush the aliens by quickly taking sat comm before they oc'd it to hell. So we all ran to sat, ignoring any alien res towers on the way.
Two of us stayed in the hallway leading to sat hive and built a phase for reinforcments, but it wasn't needed as the sat hive went down in seconds.
But the end buzzer wasn't going off, there was another hive. Turns out some gorges with plenty of res started up a hive in waste, right next to our farm.
We quickly ran to waste, destroying any res nodes on the way, killed a gorge trying to get fusion up, and destroyed waste, and the alien threat.
It was a great game!
On my next game, with all the marines following orders of destroy all aliens res on sight, and turret farming to hell, the aliens stood little chance with their trickle of res.
Finally, HA and shotties anillated their last hive.
I think the marines are still losing a fair bit because they are not aggressive enough, turreting their spawn instead of key res nodes.
If a bile bombing gorge is making short work of the outpost, the best counter is to take a hive, and take away its ability. Most aliens strat expand like a balloon, full of air on the inside. Pretty much if you can get to a hive, its easy pickings.
Just keep playing 2.0 some more before nerfing aliens.
been playing 2.0c, its produced a swing to the other side, Where as marines used to lose 70% of the time in 2.0, they win 70% of the time in 2.0c due to a rush effect where the aliens get their hive camped quickly.
/shrug
Stop right there.
If the alien team had any competence, they would have put up a wall of offense chambers of 4 at chemical processing and a few more at each hive.
Not only that, but they'd be sensible enough to block reactor room and west access corridor as to cut off the entire map. Maybe you guys did have waste handling, in which case, the aliens would have simply put OC's in chemical and central tunnels.
It sounds like nobody stayed gorge to block the choke points. That's the difference between what you were up against, and what Stoneburg has to deal with.
[EDIT] chemical reactor... ha, what was I thinking?
I'm hoping the server will cool down so I can finish a round on it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop. Because they won't be fighting non-upgraded skulks. 3 gorges will be dropping rts yes, but the other 3 players have gorged and dropped chambers at the hive. That means you're fighting skulks with silence, or celerity, or SOF, or cloaking, or carapace, or regen. Vanilla lvl 0 marines against those kind of foes don't match up; they will most likely die.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At this point of the game, these marines are expendable<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they're not. Each one of those marines represents cold hard resources that the alien team will immediatly put to use in a far better way than any res gained from killing gorges.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway, these marines should be able to get to a res node long before the gorge has finished building, and often before he is even finished evolving<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only when the gorge has been silly enough to build on a res node close to the marine base. Most hives have at least one or 2 expansion nodes: these will be where the rts will be and marines just can't move fast enough to get there in time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regardless, it will eventually be important for the marines to take a hive, thus later depriving the aliens of their two most important abilities: acid rocket and charge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect. Acid rocket and charge are useful, but bile bomb would be possibly the single most useful ability in the game: it spells doom for any marine outpost. Not to mention stomp on oni, or umbra on lerks, leap with skulks and metabolise on Fades. 2nd hive is where these game-ending skills come into play and you have to be playing against some really dumb aliens to lock down both hives in the first few minutes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the aliens don't have these, shotguns may be used exclusively for the rest of the game, and then it's just a matter of time before the marines can get fully teched up and get HA and then walk the map.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens can counter shotguns with spores, spikes, silence, cloaking, stomp, blink, celerity, leap and even spit <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> And this teching must be going off one res node right? because all your other nodes (if you even managed to get some) are now dead thanks to bile bomb/umbra assaults. Also said teching won't even get off the group: 2 hive aliens will pound your base into oblivian long before that 1st HA suit comes out.
Sorry man but if those tactics are working then you're fighting newbie aliens.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop. There is no way that the entire team is going to gorge, <i>and even if they did</i>, then there would be no skulks to stop the initial marine rush. Please read before posting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No they're not. Each one of those marines represents cold hard resources that the alien team will immediatly put to use in a far better way than any res gained from killing gorges.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh my, what are we talking about here? Maybe 6-8 res total? No big deal at all. And more valuable than the death of the gorges? OMG, are you on crack?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Only when the gorge has been silly enough to build on a res node close to the marine base. Most hives have at least one or 2 expansion nodes: these will be where the rts will be and marines just can't move fast enough to get there in time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, I doubt it. Marines sprinting from the start of the bell will get to nearly any part of the map by the time the gorges started building.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Incorrect. Acid rocket and charge are useful, but bile bomb would be possibly the single most useful ability in the game: it spells doom for any marine outpost.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 shotgun shells will quickly take care of that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2nd hive is where these game-ending skills come into play and you have to be playing against some really dumb aliens to lock down both hives in the first few minutes.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, sorry, but that is incorrect. Without ranged weapons, the aliens are forced to engage the marines where they are strongest: with the shotgun. Not even fades last more than a 2 seconds under that fire.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens can counter shotguns with spores, spikes, silence, cloaking, stomp, blink, celerity, leap and even spit And this teching must be going off one res node right? because all your other nodes (if you even managed to get some) are now dead thanks to bile bomb/umbra assaults. Also said teching won't even get off the group: 2 hive aliens will pound your base into oblivian long before that 1st HA suit comes out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you are obviously convinced that marines have no chance. With that attitude, it's no wonder you can't win with them..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sorry man but if those tactics are working then you're fighting newbie aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like you are the one who has been playing with n00bs. Each of your arguments are weak, and it sounds like you are only repeating what you have read elsewhere.
Play some more, then come back and talk.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stop. There is no way that the entire team is going to gorge, <i>and even if they did</i>, then there would be no skulks to stop the initial marine rush. Please read before posting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is thread is talking about 10 vs 10 games discussion of 6 vs 6 is largely irrelevant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh my, what are we talking about here? Maybe 6-8 res total? No big deal at all. And more valuable than the death of the gorges? OMG, are you on crack?!?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes while if the entire marine team rushes together they can take out a gorge or two and maybe an rt or two, the aliens decentralized resource pool + the res for kills system makes this a joke as the 2nd alien hive is almost guaranteed to be going up by the 3:30-4 minute mark regardless of whether you kill their rts or not. The fact that this is far faster than the marines can develop equipment to counter only compounds the problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Um, I doubt it. Marines sprinting from the start of the bell will get to nearly any part of the map by the time the gorges started building.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While this is true the aliens can do this much faster and respond to attacks much more quickly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2 shotgun shells will quickly take care of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except when it is one of your rts not inside your spawn or one with a vent or one where they actually have umbra and teammate support in a concerted effort to win rather than the aliens just running wily nilly about the map playing sloppyily because they are so used to winning.
A gorge in a vent with adrenaline can outdamage two people repairing with welders and can only be hit with a grenade launcher which at the absolute minimum will be coming out at around 3:45 by which time the second hive will be going up and it is not feasible to have a gl at every single rt or marine outpost on the map with a vent on it.
A gorge with umbra can pretty much destroy any marine outpost before they have a chance to react (ala Lerk umbra phase gate gorge stands on it and bilebombs it to death then finish off turrets), much less if the whole alien team actually works together instead of just two people.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, you are obviously convinced that marines have no chance. With that attitude, it's no wonder you can't win with them.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines can win with a shotgun rush on the hive as soon as the map starts if aliens can't/don't bother to put up an effective defense or actually have the basic scouting skills to see them coming. Marines can win if aliens don't ruthless press the numerous advantages that they have both tactically and economically.
But if you pit an excellent marine team against an excellent alien team the aliens will win far more often. At the moment we are dancing way too close to the 1.04 balance of Aliens can't win marines can only lose, only the exact reserve.
Gorges dying? So what? I do one of three things at the start of the round as alien:
- Gorge up and drop a M chamber, then either go back to skulk, drop an OC or find some other gorges to stick with.
- Run to a node, Gorge up, drop a res node, immediatly go back to skulk (evolve if people are dead, suicide if people ar enot)
- Get celerity/silence and save for hive (meaning: kill as many Marines as I can)
The absolute worst thing that could happen would be a Marine coming round the corner *just* as I drop a RT and killing me, then killing the RT. This will be a *personal* net loss of 25 res for me, if the Marine actually manages to kill the RT which is unlikely (I'd give him 1:5 odds). Actually the Marine would have to be hiding at the res node since I wouldn't drop it if I heard him coming.. which means he would have had to run there immediatly at round start to beat me to it.
Anyway, lost track there. What I am saying is that losing a gorge means almost nothing in most situations, other then 1-3 res extra for marines. The exceptions being losing the gorge that is about to put up the hive, which could delay the start of the hive as much as one minute. But that doesn't happen, or at least hasn't happened yet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no way that the entire team is going to gorge<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is true. Usually everyone except 2 or 3 gores gorge, while th erest save for hive/onos. The person who hits 43 res first puts up th ehive, the other keeps saving for Onos. This usually ensures you have a 2:nd hive going up after 3-4 mins and an Onos coming up shortly after the 2:nd hive is finished (you don't want the Onos sooner anyway because he needs D.) Of course almost noone *stays* gorge, you gorge up, do your thing and go back to skulking most of the time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines sprinting from the start of the bell will get to nearly any part of the map by the time the gorges started building.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True true, and these are the games we all "Forced relocations" or "GG" 2 minutes into the game, since a couple of skulks will invariably show up in Marine base which is undefended. Actually, you seem to assume that Marine base will never be attacked. No-where do you mention the need either for base guards (which will limit your effectiveness on the field) or static defense in base (which will slow your expansion).
As for your example of tanith I haven't seen an alien team that doesn't realise th eimportance of Cargo and Chem for at least 4 months. I have actually not played a single game on tanith where there *hasn't* been at least a couple of OC's up in Cargo 1 minute into the game. Usually Aliens put up defenses in 2 of the three hot spots, Cargo, RR and Chem.
Marines are winning a bit more now, maybe 25% of the games and this is due to these factors:
- Marine team gets stacked. The best players tend to chose Marines more often since it is just too easy to play Alien. I personally feel "cheap" playing Alien.
- Marines are doing everything they can to win, using an extreme amount of teamwork, while Aliens are getting lazy from getting "free" wins all the time.
I'm happy that 2.0 has brought out teamwork from Marines. Frankly it was lacking in 1.04 because of the ease with which Marine could win most maps and their initial strength. Unfortunately the awesome development in teamwork that Aliens had, in order to counter this, has been dilluted by 2.0, since only a minimal amount is needed. As an example, I think it was on Origin, Marines were about to do something "big" like sieging a hive or someting and one alien was screaming for us (I was alien for once) to get there. I just said "Doesn't really matter, we will win anyway even if they do succeed". There was a second of silence and then a murmur of consent.
That way, marines tech as fast as aliens do. The game is balanced if both teams tech at the same rate.
Frankly, I think those patches miss the point, which is that marines tech far slowly than aliens do, all because of a lack of resources that the aliens have a bounty of.
Just EVEN the starting resources so that marines start with [# of alien players] * 25. That's <b>all</b> there is to it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think you grasp the way the res system differs from the Mairnes to the Aliens!
So i'll say this to you in words you can understand!
The Marines have 1 POT, all the RES goes into that POT, 1 Person (commander) can use that RES, everyone else can't!
So every Res tower that the marines get gives the commander the exact amount of res it takes!
The Kharaa share Res, all that res goes into 1 Pot, but all the aliens have to take the exact same amount of res at the same time!
So if there are 8 aliens each kharaa will get res much slower because they have to share it!
Now if your whining about Res for Kills, thats a different story.
If anything its unfair to the Kharaa, every kill the Marines get they ALL get the res, becasue it goes to the team! When a Kharaa gets a RFK only that 1 alien gets the res, not the team!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"marines start with the same amount of resources as the aliens do."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So do you mean that both teams only have 25 res to start and only 1 alien gets that res, or that the marine team gets the equal amount of all the res the Kharaa have each...
Either way, thats just a stupid **** IDEA and you have no clue what your talking about!
Learn how things work first before you talk about making changes you have no idea about! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those 6 - 8 res represent a faster 2nd hive. If one alien got those kills, he's now gotten a quarter of the needed res for the hive. Gorges dying? Oh no. Most of them are going back to skulks anyway, in fact you just saved them 2 res <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Say by perchance you do get one of the gorges who was going to stay gorge, does't matter, one of his other buddies will take up the role.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Um, I doubt it. Marines sprinting from the start of the bell will get to nearly any part of the map by the time the gorges started building.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What Stoneburg said
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2 shotgun shells will quickly take care of that.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What Minstrel Knight said
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once again, sorry, but that is incorrect. Without ranged weapons, the aliens are forced to engage the marines where they are strongest: with the shotgun. Not even fades last more than a 2 seconds under that fire.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you assume that the marines are strongest in meele combat? LA-marines, even shotgun armed, can be easily taken down by silent or cloaked skulks. You also seem to be completly ignoring the lerk, and an adrenaline lerk is not something to be taken lightly. You wanna have your whole team on shotguns? Fine, lerks will gas or spike you down. Also, those shotguns do cost res, and holding onto res is extreamly difficult once 2 hives pops us.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, you are obviously convinced that marines have no chance. With that attitude, it's no wonder you can't win with them..
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe that the marines are DEFENITLY going to lose, but unless the alien team makes some serious errors the aliens are going to win. Whenever you have a fluid, well co-ordinated alien team working together the marines are doomed. If you think that the reason marine's lose is all about "attitude" then think again. I go into every marine game full of hope, trying every time to get the most out of the team and just try for victory. It doesn't happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sounds like you are the one who has been playing with n00bs. Each of your arguments are weak, and it sounds like you are only repeating what you have read elsewhere.
Play some more, then come back and talk.
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Your ""elite"" strats have already been cut to shreds by others as well. I have experianced good alien sides and good marine sides first hand and I've watched marine defeats over and over again. Your strats have been tried, and they won't work against a skilled alien side. I've been playing NS solidly since 1.0 was released and been actively involving in the Australian clan ladder since then as well. I've played NS for at least as long as you have and I play against the best players in Australia on the servers I frequent. If you have some demos of your tactics working then please share them with us because they DO NOT WORK against the kind of players myself and people like Stoneburg are up against.
ok, first of all, i never saw a movement as first upgrade. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
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you've never seen celerity skulks ravage entire marine teams. a single celery skulk has a 50/50 chance of taking out 2-3 lmg marines.
The way I see it, the aliens have an immense advantage because
A) The aliens can do all four RTS strats simultaneously - Rushing, Teching, Expanding, and Turtling (defense).
B) The marines can only do one or two at the most simultaneously.
C) Marines are quite capable of dealing with alien rushes, teching, expansion, and turtling, but unfortunately can only address one or at most two at a time. *edit* which ends up turning into a vicious cycle since the marines invariably get crushed because even while they are winning offensively, they are losing on one of the other aspects of the game - res, tech, map control. It just seems that the aliens can cover all their bases but marines can't.
You need to expand more, canter your strats to denying res to aliens and tech up or farm the map.
I dont get it, I hardly ever lose when I command and I onyl comm on pubs. This isent v1.4 and you have to adjust your tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that post = win <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed! sick to death of people cry that aliens always thats pure BS.
Unfortunately, with RFK being part of the game the starting alien res must allow them to go gorge and build a RT right from the start. Otherwise, marines would just turtle up, with extreme defensive tactics, until the aliens got enough res to start building RT's.
In an 12v12 game and one RT, aliens receive exactly one res per minute. Cutting starting res to 10, as you propose, would allow the marines 15(!) minutes when they KNOW the aliens can't build any res, as long as no marine dies.
Sorry, alien res can't be lowered below (gorge+RT) cost.
You need to expand more, canter your strats to denying res to aliens and tech up or farm the map.
I dont get it, I hardly ever lose when I command and I onyl comm on pubs. This isent v1.4 and you have to adjust your tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that post = win <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed! sick to death of people cry that aliens always thats pure BS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. I'm one of the few that thinks marines are overpowered. The only thing keeping them on a leash is the reliance on a good commander, and they're rare. But every game I've played with a good commander results in a marine landslide.
Yeah, right. Are you also one of the few who thought 1.04 was fine balance-wise and aliens then were just too stupid to realize the "mystical" and easy winning strategies? People heavily underestimate clanners by thinking they're just "stupid powergaming exploiters" when in fact they show the future of public play... At least they did in 1.04.
Really?! No way!
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Now if your whining about Res for Kills, thats a different story.
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Don't recall ever typing about anything regarding res for kills, but maybe you see things in people's posts that I simply don't have the gift of seeing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So do you mean that both teams only have 25 res to start and only 1 alien gets that res, or that the marine team gets the equal amount of all the res the Kharaa have each... Either way, thats just a stupid **** IDEA and you have no clue what your talking about!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, let me explain this s-l-o-w-l-y, just for you. From my post:
> The only change that the game needs is to have marines start with the same amount of resources as the aliens do.
In a 10 v 10, aliens start with 250 res, divided up. Marines start with 100 res. In pure numbers, marines can build 5 RT's and be out of resources, assuming they don't build IPs, armoury, or anything else. On the other hand, aliens can get 3 chambers, leaving 190 res, which can then be used to capture 7 RT's, and then have some of the people who went gorge to stay gorge for 8 or 9. You run out of nozzles to capture.
> That way, marines tech as fast as aliens do. The game is balanced if both teams tech at the same rate.
Assuming marines start with 100 res, they have to place 2 IPs, 1 armoury, and at least 2 RT's. Or 1 RT and a couple of shotguns or upgrades. In which case, they're depleted of resources and cannot tech any further. Aliens on the other hand, have 8 or so Rt's to support them. Let's say marines get lucky and take out 2 of the RT's, and miraculously build them both... thus 6 resource towers for aliens and 3 for humans. That still means a second hive goes up at 4:00. Marines on the other hand, will maybe be able to upgrade the armoury at 4:30, which will be finished at 7:30. By that time, the second hive is up, and bile bombs will erase the outposts.
> Frankly, I think those patches miss the point, which is that marines tech far slowly than aliens do, all because of a lack of resources that the aliens have a bounty of.
See above.
> Just EVEN the starting resources so that marines start with [# of alien players] * 25. That's all there is to it.
OK, there's this little thing called mathematics, popular amongst the Greeks, Egyptians, and Babylonians. And one simple item is this thing called multiplication. Now, we both know that marines have a shared resource pool, right? Good. So, in a 10v10, [# of alien players] = 10. Referring to the above formula, and substituting the 10 into the variable, you'd get 10 * 25 = 250. Next, it says "marines start with ...."
Put the two together and you get... "Marines start with 250 resources in a 10v10 game" to keep up the tech with aliens who have the second hive started at 3:30.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Learn how things work first before you talk about making changes you have no idea about! ???<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can both agree that this speaks for itself.
[EDIT] OK, now that I've read over my post and calmed down a bit, I think it best for you to not get personal with your replies by assuming that I have no clue how to play NS 2.0. I assume everyone else has played NS 2.0 long enough to try commanding, gorging, and overall butt kicking, and know the quirks of each option (guns, upgrades, chambers, etc..) down to the exact cost/increase in dmg/armour/speed. Now, I'm going to assume you know the mechanics of NS 2.0, and I'll stop assuming that you have no idea how ridiculously quick the aliens can tech, unless you go on record to say otherwise. In turn, I'd suggest you try and read a bit of what other people write, because they may actually have tried all known solutions before coming to the forums to "whine" (at least some people call it that.)
Most importantly, if you don't understand the ideas that are offered, do not just tell others "you need to learn how things work" because for ****'s sakes, they would not be offering their ideas if they didn't. Instead, ask them to elaborate or, ****, just give a constructive reply. I certainly hope you can be a bit more mature, because the last thing I want to see myself involved is a flame-thread, in which I readily took your flame bait. In turn, I'll stop the personal attacks and the cocky sarcasm myself. I certainly do not care enough about your opinions to get all riled over, and you certainly should not care what I think enough to look immature in front of the world either. Lastly, there's no need to repeatedly use exclamation marks or question marks, especially not in a series of them!!!!! It's almost like typing in all capitals.
2) There obviously has to be changes made to restore balance. I find NS 2.0 to be extremely fun at the moment, but it's at the cost of balance. The balance went to **** for the sake of fun. I can appreciate what the devs were trying to do there, but as you can see, it kinda screwed over the whole thing.
The main problems for the marines are...
<b>Onoses limiting marine mobility.</b>
On the alien side I think the Onos/Devour+Redemption problem needs to be fixed. I think Devour should stay. If the onos redeems then the marine escapes unharmed. Onos are limiting the movement of the marines on the map. Marine games tend to be camp outs behind the turrets to avoid losing essential equipment. Hampering the onoses ability to devour effectively under hvy fire will help to give the marines mobility in the field mid to end game. I think this is what has created somewhat of an illusion of increased teamwork, as it has now just become a matter of survival to stay close to a lot of guns/turrets. In some ways this is good. I like the 'moving together' feel, but sometimes you just want to break out and sneak into a hive. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>The ' alien res rush'.</b>
The aliens start with more res. Adjust the starting res of the marines to allow fast deployments, quick upgrades, counter-chamber measures (ie. observatories) and the ability for the commander to back his troops up from the start with health and ammo in the field. I'd like to see an equal amount on each side.
How I'd like to see alien play adjusted is by putting the aliens onto the 'back foot' slightly. That's a cricket term, btw. If the marines are more mobile and deadly in the initial stages of the game, then grouping of the aliens will become more necessary. Two gorges and a skulk would be required to garrison the initial resource towers, something along those lines anyway. This would limit the amount of res that could be capped early in the game, slowing down the alien development.
<b>Timing of the upgrades.</b>
This could be the most critical issue. The upgrades are cutting in a little too late atm, for the marines to be in good postition to use them. Sure you can take the ground, but can you hold it in time for HA/Hvy weapons? This problem could be solved by allocating more res at the start.
<b>Whatever happened to the mine?.</b>
One of the most heavily used items of 1.04 now seems to have been dropped from the commanders toolkit. The commander is too strapped for cash at the start to buy them and by the time he does have the cash, he doesnt need them. Make them cheaper and/or give the comm more res at the start to buy them.
As you can see I have pushed my own solution of more res at the start for the commander. I think it relates to what Stoneburg was saying about a 'great' marine side getting beaten by an 'random' alien side
I think its due to the lack of any real pressure on the aliens to perform at the start. If they were under a stricter time scale or greater vulnerability, they might be forced to pull their socks up.
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It's still a pub, in that all comers are welcome and they're not all clan members all the time, but almost everyone knows what they're doing at least fairly well. On these servers, marine victories are few and far between and generally depend on very high skilled marines coupled with alien blunders (or stacked vs. random pub people). What someone else said about the marines is right. If you fail your first push, that's pretty much it. Hive 2 is already up and establishing a new forward base is next to impossible.
I've seen games where the comms have been striking every alien hive left and right, bringing them down one after the other with sieges and feints, and the aliens just get the guy with the most res (from feeding off the base, generally) to throw up the hive immediately. I think it's a lot of fun and makes for a dynamic game, but it's a little repetitive seeing the same victory outcome again and again. If the first push peters out or is met with a significant obstacle at a point (wasting minutes of your time), the aliens are on the path to victory and are very, very tough to derail.
Flayra's playing around in the right area with 2.01c (although the changes aren't necessarily the best), which is alien mobility. You can't match a team that can strike anywhere and adapt its members within 30 seconds to fit any problem. Marines can theoretically attack gorges at the beginning to disrupt the economy, but the early skulks that come to your base will be able to take down your base guard if there's three (which there usually are) and you run the risk of losing it all. Skulks, on the other hand, have little fear of leaving their base unguarded because they can get back there before you realize you've shot the hive.
Additionally, marine res is worth more than alien res. One alien RT down means that one alien may have wasted his ability to fade or onos as fast. However, one failed marine RT with defense or with electrify is equivalent to several shottie marines with an upgrade that would affect the entire team.
I think this is how it should be, but it definitely needs to be balanced somehow if marines are to have a real competitive edge. The standard, average, everyday Joe pub, let's face it, is going to determine victory by the skill of the players and the luck of the draw. That's not to say balance isn't an issue there, but the margin of error is much greater. Something to make it harder or less desirable for n00bs to do their jobs (i.e. no one wants to go gorge if you can only skulk again back at the hive like in 2.01c), that's a negative change. A couple of armor points or some damage changes here and there, OTOH, probably won't be a huge deal.
Where's your balance at?
All I keep reading is marines need to rush the hive to win. What is the point of the proto lab and arms lab or any of the marine structures if only way for the marines to win is to rush the hive <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Just take all the marine structures out and have us all start with full ammo and shot guns. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Playing with clans is just boring. 1 match and you know who will win the rest. Playing on pub you used to never know what team will win. It was the one with the most team work.
Now all the aliens need to do is keep the marines bogged down defending a base WHERE EVER YOU PUT IT. Team work or no team work this will work. Few will gorge and rest will want to rush the base any how. 1 good skull can eat a whole squad of marines. This is not hard on a public server when you have at least 9 other aliens. You keep them boged down and they cant beat aliens in tech Ie onos. Wait for the Onos. Then the marine framing begins where it turns into how many times can I run in to there base devour a marine and get redeemed. Was all they play testing done with 5v5 clan match teams <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here is my 2 cents: I would not mind the clocking if they would drop the radius WAY DOWN. All aliens structures need to cost a lot more. Take away that kill enemies for res crap. If you want a faster game GO play CS! Take devour out it adds NOTHING to the game.
All I keep reading is marines need to rush the hive to win. What is the point of the proto lab and arms lab or any of the marine structures if only way for the marines to win is to rush the hive <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Just take all the marine structures out and have us all start with full ammo and shot guns. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Playing with clans is just boring. 1 match and you know who will win the rest. Playing on pub you used to never know what team will win. It was the one with the most team work.
Now all the aliens need to do is keep the marines bogged down defending a base WHERE EVER YOU PUT IT. Team work or no team work this will work. Few will gorge and rest will want to rush the base any how. 1 good skull can eat a whole squad of marines. This is not hard on a public server when you have at least 9 other aliens. You keep them boged down and they cant beat aliens in tech Ie onos. Wait for the Onos. Then the marine framing begins where it turns into how many times can I run in to there base devour a marine and get redeemed. Was all they play testing done with 5v5 clan match teams <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here is my 2 cents: I would not mind the clocking if they would drop the radius WAY DOWN. All aliens structures need to cost a lot more. Take away that kill enemies for res crap. If you want a faster game GO play CS! Take devour out it adds NOTHING to the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
devour is a countermessure for HA <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
the redeem while devouring isn't fair, but i don't have a prob with devour itself.
its a countermessure. just like HA is a counter for spores and HMG for onos,.............