Marine Wins, Few And Far Between
Stoneburg
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Some maps are especially bad</div> So I'm commanding like crazy, keeping everyone alive with medpacks and the team is GREAT. We don't have a single Rambo. Everyone is sticking together, everyone is covering eachother, following orders and basically just being a commanders wet dream.
We have Holo-Room secured and a total of 5 RT's, we kill the Alien RT in upper processing and we are working our **** off. Aliens are playing so-so, no real teamwork, maybe 2 or 3 aliens attacking together but getting cut down by Marines that hold their positions, cover eachother and attack together. Don't believe me? Here's a screenshot of the K:D ratio:
<img src='http://www.cofrfps.com/pics/score.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
So how does this game end? Like all others, Marines lose. Aliens get a second hive up before we are even half-way to HA. All the hives are lamed up and we try to siege Data from Processing, siege won't fire without scan and now the Aliens have unkillable redemption Onoses that try eating our HA's all the time. Any Alien with 10 res can go gorge an bile any of our bases into oblivion in 30 seconds, so we have to have people everywhere not to lose the structures. The third hive is up a minute after our HA start rolling off the line by the way, and that is with a 10:1 K:D ratio.
I *have* won a couple of games as COM, I admit, but those have been either flukes or a combination of us out-performing the aliens immensly and some lucky circumstances. I have NEVER lost a game as Alien except when going sensory first, and I am not even TRYING anymore because it is too easy. Marines biggest chance of a win right now is probably an shotgun rush and playing CS on a public server is time spent more intelligently gaming then that.
This is a 10vs10 server so Aliens start with 250 res against marines 100. It takes 3 minutes to upgrade the armory and it is rare that the second hive isn't started after at least 4. You *will* face 2-hive aliens before getting HA. So you want upgrades instead? Lvl 3 weps/armor still die to gas and won't stand up to Onos. You can't get both, unless you ask the Aliens very nicely to not do anything or kill any nodes while you sit back and tech.
Someone said 2.0 was playtested by "a bunch of moronic, powergaming clanners" and I must admit he has a point. I'm a Constellation member, I play NS every day for hours, I even run a server and a site dedicated to it. I'm promoting NS every day to people that haven't tried it yet, I've forced friends to download it and play it. There are probably bigger NS supporters out there but there can't be that many. Now every mature experienced gamer I have discussed this with agrees. So what is going on?
Oh and *please* respond "You are trying to play 1.04...". Please.
We have Holo-Room secured and a total of 5 RT's, we kill the Alien RT in upper processing and we are working our **** off. Aliens are playing so-so, no real teamwork, maybe 2 or 3 aliens attacking together but getting cut down by Marines that hold their positions, cover eachother and attack together. Don't believe me? Here's a screenshot of the K:D ratio:
<img src='http://www.cofrfps.com/pics/score.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
So how does this game end? Like all others, Marines lose. Aliens get a second hive up before we are even half-way to HA. All the hives are lamed up and we try to siege Data from Processing, siege won't fire without scan and now the Aliens have unkillable redemption Onoses that try eating our HA's all the time. Any Alien with 10 res can go gorge an bile any of our bases into oblivion in 30 seconds, so we have to have people everywhere not to lose the structures. The third hive is up a minute after our HA start rolling off the line by the way, and that is with a 10:1 K:D ratio.
I *have* won a couple of games as COM, I admit, but those have been either flukes or a combination of us out-performing the aliens immensly and some lucky circumstances. I have NEVER lost a game as Alien except when going sensory first, and I am not even TRYING anymore because it is too easy. Marines biggest chance of a win right now is probably an shotgun rush and playing CS on a public server is time spent more intelligently gaming then that.
This is a 10vs10 server so Aliens start with 250 res against marines 100. It takes 3 minutes to upgrade the armory and it is rare that the second hive isn't started after at least 4. You *will* face 2-hive aliens before getting HA. So you want upgrades instead? Lvl 3 weps/armor still die to gas and won't stand up to Onos. You can't get both, unless you ask the Aliens very nicely to not do anything or kill any nodes while you sit back and tech.
Someone said 2.0 was playtested by "a bunch of moronic, powergaming clanners" and I must admit he has a point. I'm a Constellation member, I play NS every day for hours, I even run a server and a site dedicated to it. I'm promoting NS every day to people that haven't tried it yet, I've forced friends to download it and play it. There are probably bigger NS supporters out there but there can't be that many. Now every mature experienced gamer I have discussed this with agrees. So what is going on?
Oh and *please* respond "You are trying to play 1.04...". Please.
Comments
Seriously, though, the thing with 2.0 is you have to expand quickly. On the usual first base rush, when you've practically gunned down their entire team, that is when you have to secure the resource nodes, or relocate to a hive, or etc.
That's the problem with most pubs, I think. They have the coordination, teamwork, skill, but they stay holed up in their base, teching for an HA rush. You can't do that, you tech much too slowly to stay in there and hide, hives are important, and destroying their Resource Chambers is, too. They can't get Onos if they get 1 resource per 30 seconds (boy, I know what that feels like...).
The whole set-up means aliens can travel easily from location to location whereas marines have to push every step of the way. Often requiring some one with a welder to open up a location, who has to go via paraguay.
Good point about initative, that is crucial. I've seen plenty of marine wins, but I've of course seen more alien than marine wins.
Seriously, though, the thing with 2.0 is you have to expand quickly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but by quickly meaning you have to secure both hives within 3-4 minutes is a little extreme.
as for that story, its clear that you did an exemplory comm job, and your marines worked just as one could have expected. the problem is, nothing is a sure thing. a comeback is always possible, and i think you just experienced an alien upheaval from the wrong perspective.
people are too focused on thinking that there needs to be one direct, absolute reason why they lost(this isnt meant to be an attack, if it sounds like one). its difficult to except that "today just wasnt your day". no matter how perfect things are going for either side, things can still turn around. every loss is not a failure. if a team loses, its not because so-and-so was an idiot, or because the other team was too good, or even because of balance. in a perfectly balanced environment, its 50-50. which means youre going to lose about half the time.
honestly, i think i just play with odd groups of people. the w/l rates i see tend to be almost 50-50(maybe 60-40 for the aliens because they seem a little easier to get "good" at).
How did you not manage to win with sieges in processing on Hera? You had control of two hives, all you needed to do was to lame it with turrets and have 1 guy cover the vent while teching up to take down archiving.
You need to expand more, canter your strats to denying res to aliens and tech up or farm the map.
I dont get it, I hardly ever lose when I command and I onyl comm on pubs. This isent v1.4 and you have to adjust your tactics.
You need to expand more, canter your strats to denying res to aliens and tech up or farm the map.
I dont get it, I hardly ever lose when I command and I onyl comm on pubs. This isent v1.4 and you have to adjust your tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that post = win
Get one hive at the beginning(Preventing Xenocide). Then cap whatever res you had aong the way.
And just play the game teching up and taking down alien stands.
OMG, for the love of all that is good, Marines dont suck, Maps arent all aliens freindly (especialy hera, Its my fav map to command on) and marines DONT NEED ALIENS TO BE NERFED TO WIN!!!!1111
You need to expand more, canter your strats to denying res to aliens and tech up or farm the map.
I dont get it, I hardly ever lose when I command and I onyl comm on pubs. This isent v1.4 and you have to adjust your tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Makes sense, but one problem. What about those clanners? Clan issues spill over to pubs, so them clanners can't be wrong, can they? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
According to the clan d00dz(or so the general sentiment is on the forum, like do we actually go do a survey with each clan?), Aliens win far more often than Marines.
Seriously, though, the thing with 2.0 is you have to expand quickly. <b>On the usual first base rush</b>, when you've practically gunned down their entire team, that is when you have to secure the resource nodes, or relocate to a hive, or etc.
That's the problem with most pubs, I think. They have the coordination, teamwork, skill, but they stay holed up in their base, teching for an HA rush. You can't do that, you tech much too slowly to stay in there and hide, hives are important, and destroying their Resource Chambers is, too. They can't get Onos if they get 1 resource per 30 seconds (boy, I know what that feels like...).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no "base rush". Why would aliens base rush when they can expand and tech ten times as quick as Marines?
We expanded to Hera/Holo/Archiving. Going to Maintenance = giveing aliens free res. Not to be rude but I don't think you play against the same caliber of aliens as I do. If you are go after every alien chamber you are giving them res because Marines *will* get ambushed and die a lot. We didn't hole up, we held half the map.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can you imagine how badly the aliens would lose if they played defensively as marines usually do?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens win if they play defensively (as well as offensively) because they tech much faster.
Actually, I just realised what the problem with this discussion is. I was on IRC and someone claimed the reason Marines lose is:
- n00b COM's
and
- n00b marines
I asked the person what server I might find these good COM's and Marines on then and I was given an IP to this "elite" server.
After 10 minutes of play on ns_nothing Aliens still have only ONE movement chamber. 3 people have gone gorge off teh bat to "save for hive", two of which spent that time dropping OC's in PowerSilo. Of the FOUR gorges I tried to get a heal from only one knew how to use healspray, the other three either just looked at me or walked the other way. 11 mins into the Game Marines arrive at Viaduct, which still isn't started, and start building phase gate and TF, I take out the first attempt but they come back. During the 4 or so minutes this takes, TWO other aliens show up to help. This was a 13vs13 server.
So unless you play on a server where the second hive is usually started 3-5 mins into the game and lvl3 upgrade (celerity/silence) is available after 30 seconds, we aren't playing the same game. To be frank, you're playing against newbies and I am playing against an alien team that co-operates and know how to take advantage of their own strengths and explout marines weaknesses.
For me, I've found some weird tricks that are often the difference... Though, as you can tell, these type of things won't always work. First, one trick is to always keep an active phase gate near the heavies, to get devoured folks back into action (recycle as you move). Another is to feint with heavies, use a jetpack to get a pg up at another hive, and phase backwards, slam the hive's movements, and then PHASE BACK the other way. Aliens are fubared. However, I've only pulled this off once, because my 'rines are generally too stupid. Another trick is to keep tfacs every critical point on your way to attack a hive... This allows you to drop two turrets in front of your heavies, effectively allowing you to slow down all incoming onos long enough to redeem their arses unharmed (and, most importantly, this isn't 10 pounds of lame like cc dropping). Also, a trick that WAY too few commanders uses is whoring siege turrets. Time shots to kill things (I get more oni than my heavies), save surprise sieges built by jetpackers until AFTER oni redeem. These are all tricks that drastically increase winning probability.
However, picking which ones to use when is key... That and having marines who will actually execute them.
and it isnt like that always the Aliens wins.
If the Marines get a good Commander and have som good players and they work as a team they still have a good chanse winning.
Frome what i have seen its like Aliens win - 5 and Marines win 2 ore Marines win more, it is not so big difference from my perspektiv.
well, well Keep fighting <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
caged is very marine friendly i think, all games i played there were won.
But eclipse isnt that great for marines, it hard to defend the RTs, and.. there are many bugs for the commander(marine start is to high, you see nearly nothing as a com, its REALY difficult to build in the eclipse hive... try it, you will see what i mean(okai, there are two problems in that hive, just try to build))
i think when we take the 2.01b patch and make a turret cap in it(to prevent that unfun lame and game prolonging turret spawning) it would be nearly perfect
My problem is that aliens working as a team will most likely beat marines working as a team in a fight (unless the aliens accidently stumble upon the marines). For a race that the manual suggests is stronger in groups, marines don't have much to show for it, except welders and faster build times. Kharaa, on the other hand, get umbra, primal scream, healspray, stomp...
more complicated than E=MCsquared... but simple too
<b>Aliens tech way quicker then Marines.</b>
Assume both teams have 5 nodes each and sit and do nothing but tech up, ie: no fighting. Which team will be the stronger after X time has passed? The Aliens, by far. This puts Marines into the position that they have to attack. Which is ok. Except, base aliens are at least as good as base Marines now, maybe even better when they have upgrades, which are immediatly available. Also, every time a Marine die, an alien gets one step closer to Onos. Due to Marines necessity to stick together, they can't defend their resource nodes. Aliens don't have that problems because skulks don't need to stick together, are very fast AND can see on hive sight as soon as a res node is attacked.
Not to mention how easy it is for a single alien to either completely destroy or at least occupy half the Marine team. A gorge or lerk in a vent can wreak havoc on any base and there is nothing you can do about it until you have GL's, which takes at minimum 3 minutes to get.
The two strenghts of the Marines right now are shotguns and turrets. Turrets have become extremely powerful. However, two things beats turrets, bilebombs and Onos. So the logical thing is to keep Aliens from getting bilebombs by using turrets. This means locking down two hives. In 3-5 minutes. If you manage this feat, you now have X minutes to either kill their remaining hive or get tech that can handle the Onos. Good luck with this since you just spent all your res locking down two hives.
The only real weakneses of the Aliens as I can see it right now is the lower HP of the hive and the lack of dedicated gorges. If you're lucky, nobody will bother to build defense at the hive. If no-one on the Alien team is paying attention you can get enough Marines in there to take it down. This is totally dependant on Aliens screwing up though.
Someone asked what to do about it. Well, I think the res system is (once again) the root of the problem. Marines weren't overpowered because of JP/HMG in 1.04, they were overpowered because they could *get* JP/HMG so fast and easy. Some things that could be done without reworking the whole system:
- Remove RFK or limit it to 1 res per kill and raise income from RT's (it is supposed to be a *tactical* game)
- Lower turret speed a little
- Lower celerity to 30 (from 35)
- Either make Bilebomb OR Onos a 3 hive thing (I would prefer to just see web and bile change place)
- Lower cost of electrify to 20
- Reduce the time it takes to upgrade the armory OR remove it as a prequisite for Protolab.
- Lower the cost of Marine upgrades somewhat (like 5pts)
- Raise the cost of a hive (to 40-50)
The thing now is that it does NOT matter how well you play as Marine, you still rely on Aliens to mess up to win. You basically need a "Dream Team" against average Aliens to have a 50/50 chance.
I think there are some awesome features in 2.0 and the player vs player (ie: marine vs skulk) balance is fine, but so far the only people claiming that marines win 50/50 are playing on servers with truly incompetent Aliens. I feel cheap playing Alien and frustrated/bored playing Marine. If this was CS it would be cs_assault whith T's spawning in VIP armor with AWP's/AK's and CT's spawning with glocks. CT's *can* win but you'd have to mess it up pretty badly as an Alien to let them.
edit: forgot to add hive price, right now the 2:nd hive gets started at 3-5 mins, that is way too soon.
2. This isn't the beta testers fault (or anyone elses), changes were made at the last min to make the game more fun.
3. Flayra is doing his best to fix these balance issues.
4. This game is free, why complain?
Honestly, because the alternative is to not play.