The funny thing is that everyone who's reply to intelligent critisism is "You suck" or something simmilar, play completely newb servers where Aliens go sensory first and then run around in circles for 10 minutes. It's also kind of fun how they stick to the idea that the game is somehwat balanced even though not even the creators agree with them. They're the NS equivalent of Bhagdad Bob. "We are winning the war. There are no American troops in Iraq. Natural Selection is Balanced."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->we need upgrades sooner so that marines actually stand a change in a fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i normally have th 1st weapon upgrade in the 1st ~5 minutes of the game. get res, don't secure them (takes to much time and res, i try to have 4 or 5 at the beginning) get an armslab and start the upgrade. now get back to the res you just build and start securing, which goes really fast with 4 or 5 nodes capped (1 of those nodes should be a hive and secured first)
normally you won't lose any of the res you didnt secure cause on a good alien team most go gorg and cap a res, the rest attacks. so narmally you have 3 to 5 skulks attacking. they dont have upgrades yet so you should be able to kill them easily.
from there you can go on capping res and securing/getting down hives.
What are you talking about? This is a perfect example of what has been said before in this thread, people that don't play competent aliens and think their ways will work against a real team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i normally have th 1st weapon upgrade in the 1st ~5 minutes of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Normally aliens have a second hive finished or at least almost finished after 5 minutes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->get res, don't secure them (takes to much time and res, i try to have 4 or 5 at the beginning)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You drop 4-5 res nodes you will have max 2 after one minute. Net loss of 45 res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->normally you won't lose any of the res you didnt secure cause on a good alien team most go gorg and cap a res, the rest attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No.. on a good team most go gorge, cap and then go *back* to skulk and kill your res nodes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so narmally you have 3 to 5 skulks attacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Normally you have the whole alien team -1 to 3 gorges.. who are probably close by healing skulks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->they dont have upgrades yet so you should be able to kill them easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, this is where you really show your colors. If the alien team doesn't have a lvl3 upgrade (usually movement) you ARE playing with newbies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->from there you can go on capping res and securing/getting down hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You either made that up or you only play against newbie aliens. I don't mean to be rude but that is the way it is.
In my opinion marines do need a helping hand, but not massive changes.
If the basic weapon and armour upgrades were cheaper and the hives more expensive (not much but slightly) I think problem sovled.
Anyway what I'm trying to say is, there only needs to be <b>small</b> and <b>subtle</b> changes and I think it could really sort the obvious balancing problem out.
I'll agree that an excellent marine team will be defeated more often by an average alien team in Stock NS 2.0.
Whenever I play marines, I usually go comm and set up 2 squads. The squads split, one goes expansion (ie. capping res) the other squad goes harassment (ie. Denying alien res/ attacking alien hive).
Since skulks are a match for marines, Usually one of my squads fall (most frequently the harassment squad) - That gives the expansion squad some time to get some nodes and electrify them.
All seems fine as the expansion squad usually can make it to an empty hive and kill the lone gorge whilst the harassment squad diverts the alien attention. The expansion squad locks down the hive and then continues to move on while I get upgrades.
Then it happens, the aliens get their onos and a second hive. From this point on Marines are on the defensive. (ie. Trying to stop that regen/redempt onos or bilebombing gorge.)
Since I spent all that res securing nodes and a hive, marine tech is not as advanced as alien tech. So unless I have a stacked marine team, the outposts slowly fall to the onos and gorge. If I do have a stacked marine team however (Marines that can kill with shotguns and lmgs), we kill the gorge and onos and then successfully siege the second hive.
By this time since the teams are stacked and we now have tech, the last hive can be broken by HA/HMG or GL or Shotty.
So for all you that say marines can win in 2.0 you are correct, just stack like crazy and if the aliens are poorly skilled you'll win (probably)
Guys, remember, Marines don't really need big improvements, they just need to be able to tech a LITTLE bit faster, even a small change can make a big difference, and Aliens should be a LITTLE better so people have incentive to go to them.
CHanging the skulks starting health to lower it will ruin the use of diff chambers, just make SMALL changes.
I play regularly with Stoneburg on the CoFR server, and I've been witness to everything he's said. The aliens are just a bit too overpowered at the moment. Both under his command and as an alien against the marines, it is usually the aliens who will win, unless the marine team is truly stacked up with good players. It's been said that nowadays, marines don't win, the aliens lose. Because I usually end up on aliens, the only times I've seen them lose is when we have inexperienced or new players. He is right: usually enough people will go gorge so that all 3 of a chamber are up ASAP, and 1-2 new RTs at LEAST. Most then ungorge and proceed to tear through the lv. 0 tech marines and their RTs with their uber-abilities. As it is, RTs feel more like liabilities to the marines, in the sense that either the commander has to blow 30 to electrify (and by the time this becomes a reasonable cost, a second hive has begun, meaning bile bombs), or pin marines and other resources to their defense. Meanwhile, the aliens get free run of the map, building or destroying as necessary. So, yes, marine stax are the only way to go.
I'm not even going to talk about that game on eclipse where, despite the loss of a hive and no respawn for a few minutes, the aliens came back and won D:
It would be a mistake to consider Stoneburg just another clueless commander on just another clueless server. Those respondents gave me a good laugh this morning. Thanks. I'd invite them in instead of being condescending, but then I'd have to wait longer for a slot. (This forum provides reading material during busy redial.)
For this discussion, references to Natural Selection 2.0 will refer to the game you see in a random pub server and nothing more. Pubs make and break multiplayer games, not clan tournaments. Not forum junkies who make everything work in spreadsheets and forum threads. The real Natural Selection is played on imperfect servers by imperfect players like you and I.
As an experiment recently, I tried to play on just about every other server with an open slot with more than 10 players and pings less than 200. It's a short list.
It's barely playable, as either side. NS 2.0, as it stands now in 95% of public servers, is a battle of incompetence. Whichever team is more incompetent loses. On one side, you have marines playing with knives in base demanding better guns. On the other side, you have aliens all trying to hide how much res they have in order to avoid having to drop RTs. "Good teamwork" on most pubs consists of HA squads of 2 or a lerk who decides to explore his or her other weapons other than gas. Who will find the way out of their base first? Stay tuned.
I won't tell you how to run your kitchen. However, as someone who wants to see more people become interested in this fantastic mod, I'm nervous that Joe Gamer won't really be able grasp why NS 2.0 is worth his time when half the people on any given server are barely playing.
The pattern I see is that aliens can win in a great variety of ways and can only lose in a few. The "paths to victory" for both teams almost all rely on time. Aliens can do things too quickly, too safely, and too individually as compared to marines.
How can aliens lose?
a) Incompetence. Failure in threat assessment (no recon) and infrastructure (unwillingless to build and defend res nodes/chambers). FPS skill has surprisingly little to do with alien ability to win, as demonstrated by Stoneburg's screencap. b) High risk marine tactics. Zero distance shotgun rushes, ninja siege farms/feints, etc. Generally unreasonable to expect tightly executed versions of these on most pubs. c) Really, really angry marines. 7+ marines under commander watch making a beeline to the hive/siege location. High risk, usually bets the game on one rush in the right place at the right time.
Keep in mind that in games with experienced players, there's a whole other batch of reasons why aliens can dominate and marines can barely hang on. These aren't terribly important though and they're mostly variations on the themes of safety, time, and individual action.
Arguing over +/- skulk health, LMG ammo, or other NS trivia really misses the point. It's not any *one* thing that's destroying marines, it's the whole conceptual difference in res models and gameplay styles. Aliens, as they are now, require far less thinking and situational awareness to be eqaully effective.
ps - I will have to disagree on one point. I think sensory is at least as useful as movement, even though movement is a more flexible choice. The vast majority of people who like sensory, however, like it for the wrong reasons. You don't want cloaking, you want scent of fear. The ultimate wallhack, 95% effective at one chamber, guaranteed to be a marine and not a structure, guaranteed marine avoidance if you're doing tactical strike on nodes/strucs. You don't really need to know who is more than 20 feet away from you when you're a skulk anyway. I could see a smart alien team being equally adept with either chamber. Movement has a slight edge, though, because it's more useful for other evolutions.
I have an urge to click on this blinking rifle guy. Boy, does he bug me. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
Stop to think about how much the tables have turned in less than 2 weeks! on the 1st of Aug, everyone was Bitching that Devour was over powered and that the Marines couldn't win. Now its the other way around! Ppl hate the SG and find that Turret Farms are unstoppable! Kharaa have a hard time winning now! Funny how it works!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The funny thing is that everyone who's reply to intelligent critisism is "You suck" or something simmilar, play completely newb servers where Aliens go sensory first and then run around in circles for 10 minutes. It's also kind of fun how they stick to the idea that the game is somehwat balanced even though not even the creators agree with them. They're the NS equivalent of Bhagdad Bob. "We are winning the war. There are no American troops in Iraq. Natural Selection is Balanced." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont even prefer sensory first but I still know that droping sens first doesn't make you some sort of insta-n00b
one of my favorite jobs is to follow 1 or 2 marines to a RT using SoF and get some backup or just eat them myself after 1 starts to build..SoF is also great for avoiding the 'mob' in order to get into a better attack position and getting to that lone scout before he sees somethin' important
but anways.......a bit off topic sorry <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
P.S. oh yeah....I'd also have to agree with stone to a certain extent......I just feel aliens expand too easily at the start which causes the super teching (2nd hive goes up *WAY* too fast.....they get INSTA-RTs with their starting res...just gotta go find an empty one....its too ez for them to rush the double node on some maps....2 gorges drop OCs, then all- gorges help SPEED build them....2 more drop an RT each which are both then speed built...then all 4 change to skulk then destroy the marines as they come in....alot of comms depend on the double node too much in their strats sometimes )
I don't think the lastest beta patch to (which is 'c') is the right answer however......but time will tell =/
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
There is is a lot of commanders that say they have 90+% win ratios... which just shows that a good commander can get a lot of milage out of noob marines, AND that there are a lot of awful alien players out there...
Decent alien teams, ie teams where 5+ ppl are willing to go gorge, are very, very hard to beat for the marines, even given a good commander.
Bw, the major problem with sensory is that if the marines relocate to a hive and make a last stand there, it can be really difficult for the aliens to break them without movement chambers. Sensory is strong early game, weak late game.
I was in that game on the alien team joined about mid game to early. Marines had holo hera marine start, cleared out upper proccessing and were taking proccesing. At first aliens werent grouping up, they were messing up bad and it almost cost them. From processing when you did try siegeing Data mostly you were hitting our other buildings not the hive. WE have a gorg or two have building in front anf healint it then retreating while constantly harashing your heavy's with skulks. You could have also sieged out ven our only other hive, archiving was just barly going up but you did a push on archiving instead. You guys did try to siege that one, but by that time the aliens were starting to group up. Aliens were hurting in the time when they have were just hive 1 but we held out and archiving went up. I was mostly lerking following an onos around to give him support. When we cleared out data of all tis building and had 2 hive up we did a big push on holo with 2 or 3 lerks 2 onos and 2 gorges healing, couldnt clear it all out of the frist attempt to many heavys but we were able to repeat the process. Once the aliens actually group up and attack as long as they have 2 hives they will usually win. Onos+umbra+gorg healing/Bile bomb can about wipe out anything.
Most games on CoFR both sides are playing top of there game, some the aliens are just doing horribly and still win. In this game there was a point marines might have pulled off the win, if they could have just gotten more siege and obs in processing then scanning vent hive for the kill, but was told there was some problems with this. The aliens kept preesing the marines not giving them breathign room. The marines did a great heavy attemp on archiving, but I got the aliens rallyed together there, onos, lerks, fade and gorg pushing hard on the heavy's.
Expanding fast on CoFR as marines doent work. The aliens alot of time will wait for marines to drop a building or wait till they move on then kill the res. While some kill the res, other set up ambush for the amriens comign back to save it. Most game now go with the aliens takeing movment chamber firs tfor silence and setting up ambushes. Most of the time one of the people who has gotten alot of kills will dropt he hive.
On CoFR on the 10 -15 comm attempts Iv only got my team to win 7 times total, 5 of which were in the first 2 or 3 days of 2.0's release when aliens were messing around saving for onos and not playing well together. After that no matter how hard the marines worked, unless the aliens messed around and went in 1 at a time marines lost. Iv gone maps where IV take 6 or 7 of the res on the map, but a good alien team at hive two push back the marines, killed there rt's. A few trimes early skulks will stick with the gorg or two, marines hear the gorg building think its an easy kill a group can rush in. This is a trap, 2 gorgs healing with 2 or 3 skulks attacking can wipe out a group of 9 marines rushing them. 1 on 1 in CoFR a good gorg can kill a solo marine without skulks for help. If marines do a shotgun rush, 1 or 2 skulks die and infor the rest of the team. The aliens then work aroudn it, settign up ambush spots or rushing to marine start and clearing it out. Even though I was aliens and I loved that game as a challenge, marines shoudl have won.
Most games are mostly over after 7 minutes, the aliens have a second hive 6 upgrade chambers and 4 or 5 rt's. Lerks and skulks alone can whipe out small bases of Sentry's, with a gorg its even faster. THeyy should increase the hive cost and build time. Also Maybe boost marine starting res depending on the amout of players. On CoFR 10 aliens have 250 res to work with while 10 marines have 100 still. And that armory take bloody for ever to upgrade. Maybe witht he boost to res, marines can try for 2 hive secure and skill go for some weapon and armor upgrades.
I invite all the comm's who say they can win over aliens the majority of the time to come and show us how it's done on CoFR. Frankly, I have no clue how the hell you people are able to win against aliens who're half decent. By half decent, I recap Stoneburg's list of requisites.
Assuming a team of 10... 1) get 5 or 6 additional RT's up within the first minute, and then ungorge with 2 people staying gorge to put up offense chambers. 2) have lvl 3 movement within the first 40 seconds 3) have a hive going up by 3:20. If possible, start it at 3:00 - no exceptions. 4) scout and have the entire team respond to all threats within 30 seconds, be it an ambush against a shotgun rush or a resource tower.
If one of these items is not met, then you are not playing the same game. However, if by some chance you are able to win as a comm against an alien team that does this, please, by all means, show us how it's done at CoFR. This includes the people on this thread who claims to be able to, who I will not name; you and everyone else knows who you are. The IP of the server is 207.44.180.88.
I do admit that during certain hours of the day, the regulars are offline, so the level of teamplay on the alien's behalf falls dramatically. It is during these times do I ever see a marine victory at all.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
edited August 2003
Every alien loss I've seen on COFR so far has been due to idiocy and lack of teamplay on their part. Would be nice to see marines win in a game where the aliens actually work together and play smart.
In 1.04, under the same circumstances (teams, map, etc), that game would have lasted about 10 minutes. Marines would have dominated the aliens all over the map. I'm not saying 1.04 was perfecty balanced either, but this just gives you an idea how the teams would stack up against each other in terms of skill and teamwork (the aliens had some good players also, but they just couldn't match up to the marines).
I realize Flayra and the rest of the devs are working their hardest to balance this out, but it is frustrating sometimes. On CoFR, games have gotten repetitive and stale. I'm going marines 90% of the time because I want to try to find a better way for them to win, but so far I have found none besides the shotgun rush. Right now I'm about 8-40 as a commander.
So, in other words, I am <b>really</b> looking forward to 2.01.
I agree its become an uphill battle to win with marines. What I am fearful of is a 'nerfing' of the aliens. I would prefer to see some tweaks to the marine side to give them that starting edge. I think the res model/res costs is the main problem area.
Aliens start with 250 res (10 players*25). Marines need an equivalent boost at the start. If the marines started with more resources, the tactical options for the commander at the beggining would be more varied. As it currently stands there are certains things that HAVE to be built at the start, so once you take that res from the starting total, how much is left for the astute commander to develp unique teching strats?
I would like to see a beta version of 2.01x with just this ONE option changed. Give the marine commander the exact same res as the alien side at the beggining ie. 25*number of alien players.
No no no......what marines need is a REALLY big gun, like a fatty railgun that can shoot through walls and kill a hive in 2 hits.
J/K
Yes, I've seen it. Totally elite marine teams getting owned by completely average aliens. It's pretty bad. The way it's supposed to be in 2.0 is that marines have better tech than the aliens, but aliens get it faster. I agree with the point made that aliens get thier tech about 30 times faster than marines do. Thus, they have onos while marines are still running around vanilla style with shotgun toppings.
Edit: Oh yeah, bast is the WORST map for marines. EVER! That weld point in marine start has absolutely NO point to it....not that I can see anyway.
Eh. My experience has honestly been about 50 / 50 between marine and alien wins. And honestly, I think its a bit distrubing that every win comes down to some problem in the game itself, or because the other team is "elite" while your team is not. I'll be completely honest as I say this.
The game plays as it plays. Skill does not always come down to an entire team, especially on public matches. Marines can lose because of one insane or persistant alien that strikes them where they least expect it, throwing off their tempo or forcing them to redirect their efforts. An unexpected push or a cunning rambo might seriously hurt the alien efforts. You can't say that the game is necessaraly broken in some way because unless you go over your demos with a fine tooth comb, you can't always tell what is happening at every point in the game with every person.
And losing can also be fun - the entire Alamo effect as the marines make a valiant last stand (including one epic struggle today that I wish I had as a demo, where we killed somewhere in the area of 20+ redeeming Onos overall as they tried to assualt our base, through the miracle of massed firepower) or the aliens being steadily pushed back and reacting to the marines efforts. The goal of the game is to <b>have fun</b>. Its free. So do with what you've got going right now, or don't play.
I decided when I started playing 2.0 (I havnt played since the 2nd patch o_0!!) to write down the amount of Alien - Human wins, just to see which side was better now.
Currently, it's 27 alien to 4 marine, and 2 of those marine wins were when there weren't enough aliens.
I mean, you can say "OMG the marines are teh sux" or whatever, but we would CHANGE SIDES, and the Human team that lost would win as the Aliens, and usually fairly handily.
You never really explained how you lost...you just said "I lost". Then everyone comes and tells you how to be a good commander, and how aliens are better than marines, and blah blah blah....this and that....
The races are more ballanced than you think they are. As a marine I can single-handedly take out 5 skulks just as some people as a skulk and take out 5 marines. It's all about the skill. I've noticed that a lot of the skilled players go aliens "because it's more fun and intense". That's all there is to it. Been playing NS for a few months and really haven't noticed any balancing issues. Both sides have they're uniqness and advantages and that's really what makes this mod great.
<!--QuoteBegin--RuneGrey+Aug 12 2003, 02:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RuneGrey @ Aug 12 2003, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marines can lose because of one insane or persistant alien that strikes them where they least expect it, throwing off their tempo or forcing them to redirect their efforts. An unexpected push or a cunning rambo might seriously hurt the alien efforts. You can't say that the game is necessaraly broken in some way because unless you go over your demos with a fine tooth comb, you can't always tell what is happening at every point in the game with every person.
And losing can also be fun - the entire Alamo effect as the marines make a valiant last stand (including one epic struggle today that I wish I had as a demo, where we killed somewhere in the area of 20+ redeeming Onos overall as they tried to assualt our base, through the miracle of massed firepower) or the aliens being steadily pushed back and reacting to the marines efforts. The goal of the game is to <b>have fun</b>. Its free. So do with what you've got going right now, or don't play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Two points.
On a good aliens side their is <b>always</b> one of these aliens, and its usually me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> . They all attack one outpost except for this one alien. Who then takes out a PG somehow and then thats another outpost lost...
Marines *used* to have a much more powerful equivalent a decent JP/HMGer. Now they do not. Thats partly where the problem lies, one alien can do what would take a whole team of marines to do and then the rest of the team can easily do what takes a whole marine team to prevent.
Also yes losing as marines can be fun. However it's almost never fun for comms. and not fun for marines <b>every</b> game.
1) split alien res for kills evenly between the team 2) lower alien starting res to around 10-15 3) maybe raise hive cost.
Marines get enough time for 1 good push out of their base, If they fail to secure multiple strategic positions on the first push they have no hope of winning.
I strongly beleive that the most important change is to lower the alien starting res. They can get level 3 on a chamber in the first 30 seconds, AND capture resource nodes, AND secure positions with ocs. Strategic games are supposed to come with a choice, tech up, pump the economy, or get combat strength. It is a very fundamental flaw that aliens are able to do all of these instantly. Basically aliens do not HAVE an early game, they go straight to middle game with upgrades and income. Then when the second hive goes up they get their END game skills umbra and bile bomb.
I hate to say it, but I am with stoneburg on this one. Except for the part about losing only when putting sensory up first. I have rarely lost even when putting up sensory first.
I play on COFR server a lot. I have seen Stoneburg in action, he is a good Comm, better than a lot out there. What he is saying here is true. The aliens team, as a whole, is vastly overpowered compared to the marines due to the simple fact that they can "tech up" a helluva lot faster than the marines can.
My two cents: hives should cost more and gorges (not the whole alien team) should share gorge resources. That way at the beginning of the game you don't have 5 peeps gorging and building 5 res towers simultainiously for the alien team in the first 60 seconds of the game. Like the marines could EVER build that many RT's in the first minute. Hell, it is physically impossible fo the marine team to cap RT's like that.
With you there 100% Stoneburg, just played a very long game which ended up once again in a marine defeat. My marines followed orders, I had a whole squad of HA, cargo hive on nothing locked down and advancing through to powersilo. yet once again I lost, yet we did everything right. We even had a diverse mix of jetpackers and HAs, jetpackers scouting ahead and sniping oni (only to see them redeam <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) with the HA bringing up the rear. Trouble is whenever we stopped to take a res point, what a surprise around 10 seconds after we left it a gorge merrily walks up and bile bombs it to death. Electricity was COMPLETY useless as were turrets. My marines couldn't be everywhere at once, and were constantly being hit by onos attacks time after time, which would net a devoured HA every now and again which whittled down my fast dissapearing res. I lost generator room to a gorge building on the upper ledge despite jetpacks AND grenade launchers hitting him (he'd just keep coming back) and eventually that went down. Lvl 3 wpns and armour of course, not that it made any differance.
I'm just sick and tired of watching excellent marine teams who work fluidly together and are supported by an able com being trashed by substandard alien teams who think they are so "elite" when they devour-redeem someone. I know that's fixed in 2.01b but honestly, the imbalances run so much deeper than that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Someone said 2.0 was playtested by "a bunch of moronic, powergaming clanners" and I must admit he has a point. I'm a Constellation member, I play NS every day for hours,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I'm a constellation member as well and I love NS. But seriously PTs and vets WTH were you doing? You keep telling us it's balanced. Well you tell us your incredible strat that can win marine games because we're out of ideas.
I happen to play exclusively on a private server where all of the players are dedicated players who have been playing for many months. And surprise, surprise, sometimes the aliens win, sometimes the marines win.
The marines' biggest challenge is surviving long enough to get their techs. After that, they are very powerful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That way at the beginning of the game you don't have 5 peeps gorging and building 5 res towers simultainiously for the alien team in the first 60 seconds of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hello? That means you have to get your marines out of base immediately and go gorge hunting. I send almost all of the marines out right away and tell them to find a gorge at a res node. Just take out 2 of them and you've set the aliens back significantly.
One thing that is starting to bother me about you people talking about "Those poor clans; the aliens are winning 80% of the time.. Marines suck. Boo hoo." is that you need to remember how these clans are used to playing their games. Let's see... In 1.04, it was: Build a res node. Upgrade armory. Build proto lab. Research JP. Win game.
(Another option is the hive rush + spawn camping. Of course, there are others..)
These so called experts, while surely excellent shots, never really had to do anything other than exploit the imbalances in 1.04 to win. God forbid they have to actually come up with some strategy. And now that that is showing up, and they are not winning with the same old tired thinking, it must be that 2.0 is screwed up, right?
BS.
The game is largely balanced the way it is. It may take some tweaking, but it is not in need of a major overhaul balance-wise. There are things that I don't like about it, but they do not involve the aliens getting nerfed any more than they already are..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The marines' biggest challenge is surviving long enough to get their techs. After that, they are very powerful. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, full tech marines are powerful. We'd love to hear your stratagy for getting marines there, honestly we would!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hello? That means you have to get your marines out of base immediately and go gorge hunting. I send almost all of the marines out right away and tell them to find a gorge at a res node. Just take out 2 of them and you've set the aliens back significantly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can gorge very quickly once you reach a res node (or if you gorge in base for chambers, straight away) which means that your gorge hunting marines have a very short time span to get to those points. And if you take down those 2 gorges and maybe even 2 res towers (although a seriously doubt the capacity to do that unless your entire team was at one node) what have you set the aliens back by? Not very much because they now have those 6 or 7 other nodes whilst you still have 1. Wanna throw down another node? Please do, you will be wasting res because it will go down vs 2 hive aliens. This doesn't even take into account the possibility of roaming skulks eating your marines you send out, complete with flashing neon signs saying "free res here".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->These so called experts, while surely excellent shots, never really had to do anything other than exploit the imbalances in 1.04 to win. God forbid they have to actually come up with some strategy. And now that that is showing up, and they are not winning with the same old tired thinking, it must be that 2.0 is screwed up, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, give us your game winning stratagy and we will use it. We WILL. It would be lovely to win once in a while so share the wealth please.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they dont have upgrades yet so you should be able to kill them easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, this is where you really show your colors. If the alien team doesn't have a lvl3 upgrade (usually movement) you ARE playing with newbies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok, first of all, i never saw a movement as first upgrade. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> most go or def or sens. even if they have the lvl3 upgrade by then, they ain't matched to 5-6 marines who move and work togheter.
nevermind,
i'm a noob comm, playing on noob servers, playing with noob players <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
btw i'm beginning to agree with marines needing some <b>subtile</b> changes. been losing more games then last week. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
THE best solution to this is that fact that in the next update, it is very likely that Redemption will be temporarily suspended while the onos is devouring. That way, you have a chance to save your swallowed companions. That alone with make the balance swing. That and it is likely that the aliens life/armor amounts will drop a bit for balance issues.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, full tech marines are powerful. We'd love to hear your stratagy for getting marines there, honestly we would! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that sarcasm? I'm not sure, but I don't think so, so I will try to answer your post. Keep in mind that there is no 'sure thing' strategy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if you take down those 2 gorges and maybe even 2 res towers (although a seriously doubt the capacity to do that unless your entire team was at one node) what have you set the aliens back by? Not very much because they now have those 6 or 7 other nodes whilst you still have 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, let's just assume everything is 6 on 6, in order to keep these exaggerations out of the discussion. For the aliens, likely 3 will gorge and put down res. The marines should send out 3 or 4 marines <i>immediately</i>, without waiting to build, get ammo, or do anything else. At this point of the game, these marines are expendable. And another thing, at this point of the game, the marines are sill expected to be able to handle un-upgraded skulks.
Anyway, these marines should be able to get to a res node long before the gorge has finished building, and often before he is even finished evolving. Sure, they may sucessfully get a tower or two up, but even if they do, you are not worse off for it, and you have the potential to have taken down 3 gorges, thus causing some of the other skulks to have to gorge, thus slowing down the presence of an onos.
Regardless, it will eventually be important for the marines to take a hive, thus later depriving the aliens of their two most important abilities: acid rocket and charge. If the aliens don't have these, shotguns may be used exclusively for the rest of the game, and then it's just a matter of time before the marines can get fully teched up and get HA and then walk the map.
I know this sounds simple, and it <i>is </i>an extreme simplification of the process, but you can see the principles behind it. Slow down the aliens from getting onos, keep them from getting 3 hives, build turrets to protect bases, and shotgun the hell out of anything that gets close.
Comments
i normally have th 1st weapon upgrade in the 1st ~5 minutes of the game. get res, don't secure them (takes to much time and res, i try to have 4 or 5 at the beginning) get an armslab and start the upgrade. now get back to the res you just build and start securing, which goes really fast with 4 or 5 nodes capped (1 of those nodes should be a hive and secured first)
normally you won't lose any of the res you didnt secure cause on a good alien team most go gorg and cap a res, the rest attacks. so narmally you have 3 to 5 skulks attacking. they dont have upgrades yet so you should be able to kill them easily.
from there you can go on capping res and securing/getting down hives.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i normally have th 1st weapon upgrade in the 1st ~5 minutes of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Normally aliens have a second hive finished or at least almost finished after 5 minutes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->get res, don't secure them (takes to much time and res, i try to have 4 or 5 at the beginning)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You drop 4-5 res nodes you will have max 2 after one minute. Net loss of 45 res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->normally you won't lose any of the res you didnt secure cause on a good alien team most go gorg and cap a res, the rest attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.. on a good team most go gorge, cap and then go *back* to skulk and kill your res nodes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so narmally you have 3 to 5 skulks attacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Normally you have the whole alien team -1 to 3 gorges.. who are probably close by healing skulks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->they dont have upgrades yet so you should be able to kill them easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, this is where you really show your colors. If the alien team doesn't have a lvl3 upgrade (usually movement) you ARE playing with newbies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->from there you can go on capping res and securing/getting down hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You either made that up or you only play against newbie aliens. I don't mean to be rude but that is the way it is.
If the basic weapon and armour upgrades were cheaper and the hives more expensive (not much but slightly) I think problem sovled.
Anyway what I'm trying to say is, there only needs to be <b>small</b> and <b>subtle</b> changes and I think it could really sort the obvious balancing problem out.
Whenever I play marines, I usually go comm and set up 2 squads. The squads split, one goes expansion (ie. capping res) the other squad goes harassment (ie. Denying alien res/ attacking alien hive).
Since skulks are a match for marines, Usually one of my squads fall (most frequently the harassment squad) - That gives the expansion squad some time to get some nodes and electrify them.
All seems fine as the expansion squad usually can make it to an empty hive and kill the lone gorge whilst the harassment squad diverts the alien attention. The expansion squad locks down the hive and then continues to move on while I get upgrades.
Then it happens, the aliens get their onos and a second hive. From this point on Marines are on the defensive. (ie. Trying to stop that regen/redempt onos or bilebombing gorge.)
Since I spent all that res securing nodes and a hive, marine tech is not as advanced as alien tech. So unless I have a stacked marine team, the outposts slowly fall to the onos and gorge. If I do have a stacked marine team however (Marines that can kill with shotguns and lmgs), we kill the gorge and onos and then successfully siege the second hive.
By this time since the teams are stacked and we now have tech, the last hive can be broken by HA/HMG or GL or Shotty.
So for all you that say marines can win in 2.0 you are correct, just stack like crazy and if the aliens are poorly skilled you'll win (probably)
Edit: spelling
CHanging the skulks starting health to lower it will ruin the use of diff chambers, just make SMALL changes.
I'm not even going to talk about that game on eclipse where, despite the loss of a hive and no respawn for a few minutes, the aliens came back and won D:
For this discussion, references to Natural Selection 2.0 will refer to the game you see in a random pub server and nothing more. Pubs make and break multiplayer games, not clan tournaments. Not forum junkies who make everything work in spreadsheets and forum threads. The real Natural Selection is played on imperfect servers by imperfect players like you and I.
As an experiment recently, I tried to play on just about every other server with an open slot with more than 10 players and pings less than 200. It's a short list.
It's barely playable, as either side. NS 2.0, as it stands now in 95% of public servers, is a battle of incompetence. Whichever team is more incompetent loses. On one side, you have marines playing with knives in base demanding better guns. On the other side, you have aliens all trying to hide how much res they have in order to avoid having to drop RTs. "Good teamwork" on most pubs consists of HA squads of 2 or a lerk who decides to explore his or her other weapons other than gas. Who will find the way out of their base first? Stay tuned.
I won't tell you how to run your kitchen. However, as someone who wants to see more people become interested in this fantastic mod, I'm nervous that Joe Gamer won't really be able grasp why NS 2.0 is worth his time when half the people on any given server are barely playing.
The pattern I see is that aliens can win in a great variety of ways and can only lose in a few. The "paths to victory" for both teams almost all rely on time. Aliens can do things too quickly, too safely, and too individually as compared to marines.
How can aliens lose?
a) Incompetence. Failure in threat assessment (no recon) and infrastructure (unwillingless to build and defend res nodes/chambers). FPS skill has surprisingly little to do with alien ability to win, as demonstrated by Stoneburg's screencap.
b) High risk marine tactics. Zero distance shotgun rushes, ninja siege farms/feints, etc. Generally unreasonable to expect tightly executed versions of these on most pubs.
c) Really, really angry marines. 7+ marines under commander watch making a beeline to the hive/siege location. High risk, usually bets the game on one rush in the right place at the right time.
Keep in mind that in games with experienced players, there's a whole other batch of reasons why aliens can dominate and marines can barely hang on. These aren't terribly important though and they're mostly variations on the themes of safety, time, and individual action.
Arguing over +/- skulk health, LMG ammo, or other NS trivia really misses the point. It's not any *one* thing that's destroying marines, it's the whole conceptual difference in res models and gameplay styles. Aliens, as they are now, require far less thinking and situational awareness to be eqaully effective.
ps - I will have to disagree on one point. I think sensory is at least as useful as movement, even though movement is a more flexible choice. The vast majority of people who like sensory, however, like it for the wrong reasons. You don't want cloaking, you want scent of fear. The ultimate wallhack, 95% effective at one chamber, guaranteed to be a marine and not a structure, guaranteed marine avoidance if you're doing tactical strike on nodes/strucs. You don't really need to know who is more than 20 feet away from you when you're a skulk anyway. I could see a smart alien team being equally adept with either chamber. Movement has a slight edge, though, because it's more useful for other evolutions.
I have an urge to click on this blinking rifle guy. Boy, does he bug me. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
on the 1st of Aug, everyone was Bitching that Devour was over powered and that the Marines couldn't win.
Now its the other way around!
Ppl hate the SG and find that Turret Farms are unstoppable! Kharaa have a hard time winning now!
Funny how it works!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont even prefer sensory first but I still know that droping sens first doesn't make you some sort of insta-n00b
one of my favorite jobs is to follow 1 or 2 marines to a RT using SoF and get some backup or just eat them myself after 1 starts to build..SoF is also great for avoiding the 'mob' in order to get into a better attack position and getting to that lone scout before he sees somethin' important
but anways.......a bit off topic sorry <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
P.S. oh yeah....I'd also have to agree with stone to a certain extent......I just feel aliens expand too easily at the start which causes the super teching (2nd hive goes up *WAY* too fast.....they get INSTA-RTs with their starting res...just gotta go find an empty one....its too ez for them to rush the double node on some maps....2 gorges drop OCs, then all- gorges help SPEED build them....2 more drop an RT each which are both then speed built...then all 4 change to skulk then destroy the marines as they come in....alot of comms depend on the double node too much in their strats sometimes )
I don't think the lastest beta patch to (which is 'c') is the right answer however......but time will tell =/
Decent alien teams, ie teams where 5+ ppl are willing to go gorge, are very, very hard to beat for the marines, even given a good commander.
Bw, the major problem with sensory is that if the marines relocate to a hive and make a last stand there, it can be really difficult for the aliens to break them without movement chambers. Sensory is strong early game, weak late game.
Most games on CoFR both sides are playing top of there game, some the aliens are just doing horribly and still win. In this game there was a point marines might have pulled off the win, if they could have just gotten more siege and obs in processing then scanning vent hive for the kill, but was told there was some problems with this. The aliens kept preesing the marines not giving them breathign room. The marines did a great heavy attemp on archiving, but I got the aliens rallyed together there, onos, lerks, fade and gorg pushing hard on the heavy's.
Expanding fast on CoFR as marines doent work. The aliens alot of time will wait for marines to drop a building or wait till they move on then kill the res. While some kill the res, other set up ambush for the amriens comign back to save it. Most game now go with the aliens takeing movment chamber firs tfor silence and setting up ambushes. Most of the time one of the people who has gotten alot of kills will dropt he hive.
On CoFR on the 10 -15 comm attempts Iv only got my team to win 7 times total, 5 of which were in the first 2 or 3 days of 2.0's release when aliens were messing around saving for onos and not playing well together. After that no matter how hard the marines worked, unless the aliens messed around and went in 1 at a time marines lost. Iv gone maps where IV take 6 or 7 of the res on the map, but a good alien team at hive two push back the marines, killed there rt's. A few trimes early skulks will stick with the gorg or two, marines hear the gorg building think its an easy kill a group can rush in. This is a trap, 2 gorgs healing with 2 or 3 skulks attacking can wipe out a group of 9 marines rushing them. 1 on 1 in CoFR a good gorg can kill a solo marine without skulks for help. If marines do a shotgun rush, 1 or 2 skulks die and infor the rest of the team. The aliens then work aroudn it, settign up ambush spots or rushing to marine start and clearing it out. Even though I was aliens and I loved that game as a challenge, marines shoudl have won.
Most games are mostly over after 7 minutes, the aliens have a second hive 6 upgrade chambers and 4 or 5 rt's. Lerks and skulks alone can whipe out small bases of Sentry's, with a gorg its even faster. THeyy should increase the hive cost and build time. Also Maybe boost marine starting res depending on the amout of players. On CoFR 10 aliens have 250 res to work with while 10 marines have 100 still. And that armory take bloody for ever to upgrade. Maybe witht he boost to res, marines can try for 2 hive secure and skill go for some weapon and armor upgrades.
AV
Assuming a team of 10...
1) get 5 or 6 additional RT's up within the first minute, and then ungorge with 2 people staying gorge to put up offense chambers.
2) have lvl 3 movement within the first 40 seconds
3) have a hive going up by 3:20. If possible, start it at 3:00 - no exceptions.
4) scout and have the entire team respond to all threats within 30 seconds, be it an ambush against a shotgun rush or a resource tower.
If one of these items is not met, then you are not playing the same game. However, if by some chance you are able to win as a comm against an alien team that does this, please, by all means, show us how it's done at CoFR. This includes the people on this thread who claims to be able to, who I will not name; you and everyone else knows who you are. The IP of the server is 207.44.180.88.
I do admit that during certain hours of the day, the regulars are offline, so the level of teamplay on the alien's behalf falls dramatically. It is during these times do I ever see a marine victory at all.
In 1.04, under the same circumstances (teams, map, etc), that game would have lasted about 10 minutes. Marines would have dominated the aliens all over the map. I'm not saying 1.04 was perfecty balanced either, but this just gives you an idea how the teams would stack up against each other in terms of skill and teamwork (the aliens had some good players also, but they just couldn't match up to the marines).
I realize Flayra and the rest of the devs are working their hardest to balance this out, but it is frustrating sometimes. On CoFR, games have gotten repetitive and stale. I'm going marines 90% of the time because I want to try to find a better way for them to win, but so far I have found none besides the shotgun rush. Right now I'm about 8-40 as a commander.
So, in other words, I am <b>really</b> looking forward to 2.01.
Aliens start with 250 res (10 players*25). Marines need an equivalent boost at the start. If the marines started with more resources, the tactical options for the commander at the beggining would be more varied. As it currently stands there are certains things that HAVE to be built at the start, so once you take that res from the starting total, how much is left for the astute commander to develp unique teching strats?
I would like to see a beta version of 2.01x with just this ONE option changed. Give the marine commander the exact same res as the alien side at the beggining ie. 25*number of alien players.
J/K
Yes, I've seen it. Totally elite marine teams getting owned by completely average aliens. It's pretty bad. The way it's supposed to be in 2.0 is that marines have better tech than the aliens, but aliens get it faster. I agree with the point made that aliens get thier tech about 30 times faster than marines do. Thus, they have onos while marines are still running around vanilla style with shotgun toppings.
Edit: Oh yeah, bast is the WORST map for marines. EVER! That weld point in marine start has absolutely NO point to it....not that I can see anyway.
The game plays as it plays. Skill does not always come down to an entire team, especially on public matches. Marines can lose because of one insane or persistant alien that strikes them where they least expect it, throwing off their tempo or forcing them to redirect their efforts. An unexpected push or a cunning rambo might seriously hurt the alien efforts. You can't say that the game is necessaraly broken in some way because unless you go over your demos with a fine tooth comb, you can't always tell what is happening at every point in the game with every person.
And losing can also be fun - the entire Alamo effect as the marines make a valiant last stand (including one epic struggle today that I wish I had as a demo, where we killed somewhere in the area of 20+ redeeming Onos overall as they tried to assualt our base, through the miracle of massed firepower) or the aliens being steadily pushed back and reacting to the marines efforts. The goal of the game is to <b>have fun</b>. Its free. So do with what you've got going right now, or don't play.
Currently, it's 27 alien to 4 marine, and 2 of those marine wins were when there weren't enough aliens.
I mean, you can say "OMG the marines are teh sux" or whatever, but we would CHANGE SIDES, and the Human team that lost would win as the Aliens, and usually fairly handily.
The races are more ballanced than you think they are. As a marine I can single-handedly take out 5 skulks just as some people as a skulk and take out 5 marines. It's all about the skill. I've noticed that a lot of the skilled players go aliens "because it's more fun and intense". That's all there is to it. Been playing NS for a few months and really haven't noticed any balancing issues. Both sides have they're uniqness and advantages and that's really what makes this mod great.
And losing can also be fun - the entire Alamo effect as the marines make a valiant last stand (including one epic struggle today that I wish I had as a demo, where we killed somewhere in the area of 20+ redeeming Onos overall as they tried to assualt our base, through the miracle of massed firepower) or the aliens being steadily pushed back and reacting to the marines efforts. The goal of the game is to <b>have fun</b>. Its free. So do with what you've got going right now, or don't play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two points.
On a good aliens side their is <b>always</b> one of these aliens, and its usually me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> . They all attack one outpost except for this one alien. Who then takes out a PG somehow and then thats another outpost lost...
Marines *used* to have a much more powerful equivalent a decent JP/HMGer. Now they do not. Thats partly where the problem lies, one alien can do what would take a whole team of marines to do and then the rest of the team can easily do what takes a whole marine team to prevent.
Also yes losing as marines can be fun. However it's almost never fun for comms. and not fun for marines <b>every</b> game.
2) lower alien starting res to around 10-15
3) maybe raise hive cost.
Marines get enough time for 1 good push out of their base, If they fail to secure multiple strategic positions on the first push they have no hope of winning.
I strongly beleive that the most important change is to lower the alien starting res. They can get level 3 on a chamber in the first 30 seconds, AND capture resource nodes, AND secure positions with ocs. Strategic games are supposed to come with a choice, tech up, pump the economy, or get combat strength. It is a very fundamental flaw that aliens are able to do all of these instantly. Basically aliens do not HAVE an early game, they go straight to middle game with upgrades and income. Then when the second hive goes up they get their END game skills umbra and bile bomb.
I play on COFR server a lot. I have seen Stoneburg in action, he is a good Comm, better than a lot out there. What he is saying here is true. The aliens team, as a whole, is vastly overpowered compared to the marines due to the simple fact that they can "tech up" a helluva lot faster than the marines can.
My two cents: hives should cost more and gorges (not the whole alien team) should share gorge resources. That way at the beginning of the game you don't have 5 peeps gorging and building 5 res towers simultainiously for the alien team in the first 60 seconds of the game. Like the marines could EVER build that many RT's in the first minute. Hell, it is physically impossible fo the marine team to cap RT's like that.
I'm just sick and tired of watching excellent marine teams who work fluidly together and are supported by an able com being trashed by substandard alien teams who think they are so "elite" when they devour-redeem someone. I know that's fixed in 2.01b but honestly, the imbalances run so much deeper than that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Someone said 2.0 was playtested by "a bunch of moronic, powergaming clanners" and I must admit he has a point. I'm a Constellation member, I play NS every day for hours,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I'm a constellation member as well and I love NS. But seriously PTs and vets WTH were you doing? You keep telling us it's balanced. Well you tell us your incredible strat that can win marine games because we're out of ideas.
I happen to play exclusively on a private server where all of the players are dedicated players who have been playing for many months. And surprise, surprise, sometimes the aliens win, sometimes the marines win.
The marines' biggest challenge is surviving long enough to get their techs. After that, they are very powerful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That way at the beginning of the game you don't have 5 peeps gorging and building 5 res towers simultainiously for the alien team in the first 60 seconds of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hello? That means you have to get your marines out of base immediately and go gorge hunting. I send almost all of the marines out right away and tell them to find a gorge at a res node. Just take out 2 of them and you've set the aliens back significantly.
One thing that is starting to bother me about you people talking about "Those poor clans; the aliens are winning 80% of the time.. Marines suck. Boo hoo." is that you need to remember how these clans are used to playing their games. Let's see... In 1.04, it was:
Build a res node.
Upgrade armory.
Build proto lab.
Research JP.
Win game.
(Another option is the hive rush + spawn camping. Of course, there are others..)
These so called experts, while surely excellent shots, never really had to do anything other than exploit the imbalances in 1.04 to win. God forbid they have to actually come up with some strategy. And now that that is showing up, and they are not winning with the same old tired thinking, it must be that 2.0 is screwed up, right?
BS.
The game is largely balanced the way it is. It may take some tweaking, but it is not in need of a major overhaul balance-wise. There are things that I don't like about it, but they do not involve the aliens getting nerfed any more than they already are..
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Yes, full tech marines are powerful. We'd love to hear your stratagy for getting marines there, honestly we would!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hello? That means you have to get your marines out of base immediately and go gorge hunting. I send almost all of the marines out right away and tell them to find a gorge at a res node. Just take out 2 of them and you've set the aliens back significantly.
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You can gorge very quickly once you reach a res node (or if you gorge in base for chambers, straight away) which means that your gorge hunting marines have a very short time span to get to those points. And if you take down those 2 gorges and maybe even 2 res towers (although a seriously doubt the capacity to do that unless your entire team was at one node) what have you set the aliens back by? Not very much because they now have those 6 or 7 other nodes whilst you still have 1. Wanna throw down another node? Please do, you will be wasting res because it will go down vs 2 hive aliens. This doesn't even take into account the possibility of roaming skulks eating your marines you send out, complete with flashing neon signs saying "free res here".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->These so called experts, while surely excellent shots, never really had to do anything other than exploit the imbalances in 1.04 to win. God forbid they have to actually come up with some strategy. And now that that is showing up, and they are not winning with the same old tired thinking, it must be that 2.0 is screwed up, right?
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Again, give us your game winning stratagy and we will use it. We WILL. It would be lovely to win once in a while so share the wealth please.
they dont have upgrades yet so you should be able to kill them easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, this is where you really show your colors. If the alien team doesn't have a lvl3 upgrade (usually movement) you ARE playing with newbies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok, first of all, i never saw a movement as first upgrade. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
most go or def or sens. even if they have the lvl3 upgrade by then, they ain't matched to 5-6 marines who move and work togheter.
nevermind,
i'm a noob comm, playing on noob servers, playing with noob players <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
btw i'm beginning to agree with marines needing some <b>subtile</b> changes. been losing more games then last week. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Is that sarcasm? I'm not sure, but I don't think so, so I will try to answer your post. Keep in mind that there is no 'sure thing' strategy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if you take down those 2 gorges and maybe even 2 res towers (although a seriously doubt the capacity to do that unless your entire team was at one node) what have you set the aliens back by? Not very much because they now have those 6 or 7 other nodes whilst you still have 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, let's just assume everything is 6 on 6, in order to keep these exaggerations out of the discussion. For the aliens, likely 3 will gorge and put down res. The marines should send out 3 or 4 marines <i>immediately</i>, without waiting to build, get ammo, or do anything else. At this point of the game, these marines are expendable. And another thing, at this point of the game, the marines are sill expected to be able to handle un-upgraded skulks.
Anyway, these marines should be able to get to a res node long before the gorge has finished building, and often before he is even finished evolving. Sure, they may sucessfully get a tower or two up, but even if they do, you are not worse off for it, and you have the potential to have taken down 3 gorges, thus causing some of the other skulks to have to gorge, thus slowing down the presence of an onos.
Regardless, it will eventually be important for the marines to take a hive, thus later depriving the aliens of their two most important abilities: acid rocket and charge. If the aliens don't have these, shotguns may be used exclusively for the rest of the game, and then it's just a matter of time before the marines can get fully teched up and get HA and then walk the map.
I know this sounds simple, and it <i>is </i>an extreme simplification of the process, but you can see the principles behind it. Slow down the aliens from getting onos, keep them from getting 3 hives, build turrets to protect bases, and shotgun the hell out of anything that gets close.