<!--QuoteBegin--Cypher_2k3+Jun 13 2003, 09:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cypher_2k3 @ Jun 13 2003, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A muppet is, basically, an idiot. Head over to Roob's *no time for muppets* NS Server and ask what one is to get a pile of definitions. These include stuff like "anyone who puts a tf in base" and so on... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> "Muppet" - a wholly English term. At least I've only NOW encountered it outside of British forums online. But I hear it all the time where I live.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twisted Master+Jun 12 2003, 08:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twisted Master @ Jun 12 2003, 08:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This topic is going to end in a cataclysmic firball of meteoric death from the heavens above.
Why? Because some people don't realize that no matter how much they try to impress their moral or personal feelings on other people they will not change their mind because other people have their OWN beliefs and morals. In simpler terms for those who don't understand and wish to continue arguing...
<u><b>YOU CAN'T IMPRESS YOUR OWN GAME RULES UPON OTHER PEOPLE</b></u>
That said, it means if people want to F4, they're going to whether you like it or not. F4ing was coded into the game. Take it out with your own coding if you don't like it. Your piddly server bans mean jack squat if there's 500 other servers. The person who gets banned for F4ing will likely not care a damn if you kick/ban them. And you can go on playing your own personal version of what you THINK the rules should be like. By yourself and your other rule nazi cronies.
GG, topic over man, topic over! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> [fireball] Fire ball hits, kills all those pansies that F4 when they see a fade or start being spawn camped, as well as those who fools who try and overcome the innevitable with tenacity. [/fireball]
Although I've seen crazy come backs. To those of you who want to give up when you're being spawn camped: the marine team killed all of us one game and were just sitting at our hive not shooting it, just blowing away skulks when they spawned. The team went, "omg! f4 this sucks". But then one of our l337 skulks spawned (not I unfortunately) and then he literally killed all 8 marines and we went on to eat their IP's + com chair and win the game. Now THAT was a surprise worth staying in the game for. It's not over till it's over.
Although I suppose this thread should be over since neither side seems that much closer to convincing the other.
Did anyone ever go to Boy Scout camp? Whenever we were in the mess hall and someone finished a carton of milk they'd hold it up and everyone would become silent as someone announced they were going to "kill the cow". At this point, they would demonstrate their skillz by folding the milk carton into a flat piece of cardboard while everyone did one big "MOOOOOO".
The point? From now on, I suggest mods "MOOOO" at the end of a topic which produced no real productive information or constructive suggestions as they lock it. Such as ones where two completely differing opinions try to convince one another why their opinion is better than the other persons. Which doesn't happen. Opinions can't be wrong I'm sorry to tell those that think they can...
<!--QuoteBegin--Zunni+Jun 11 2003, 02:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Jun 11 2003, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3 words
"OMG Fades, F4"
"OMG HMG's, F4"
F4 sucks when most people want to use it, it also robs the "winners" of the round the satisfaction of wiping out the other team...
Though as with anything F4 has many good uses (AFK, the lone hiding marine giving up, etc) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Never give your enemy satisfaction no matter what. I f4, but only when I know it's a -for sure- loss. I think I've been doing it a lot more recently because I feel like i'm constantly surrounded by people that are new or just braindead (mostly brain dead, I CAN (not can't) new people).
And this has been talked about REPEADETLY! If ya wanted to, you could of used Search and read there and necro post if you want, but necroing can be a bit annoying at times.
I think a more appropriate topic would be "prolonging the game because you're jerks", simply because most people here cite their reasons for F4 being not - "OMG FADES F4!" but rather the winning team goes out of their way to make the game fun for only them. Losing can be fun, I'm sure we've all had epic games where onos overrun the last HA/GL marine defenders, or a pitched battle for the last hive with jet packs and lerks dog fighting. But really there is no excuse for being like an immature 12 year old and standing at the marine spawn and killing each marine as they spawn. Albeit I wouldn't F4 even if that was happening, but it's the winning team's job to end the game, not be **** *****'s
I think these servers that perma-ban for F4'ing should instead look into perma-banning brats who try to ruin the game for the other team. I'm sure lots less people would be F4'ing if the game was played the way it was meant to be played.
<!--QuoteBegin--[WWJD]JesusC+Jun 13 2003, 11:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WWJD]JesusC @ Jun 13 2003, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Although I suppose this thread should be over since neither side seems that much closer to convincing the other. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think at least it may promote understanding to a degree.
Hopefully now people realize that yes some do in fact find killing that last hive very fun and satisfying. While I realize also that people may not have all that much time to play and therefore be more inclined to want to skip what they perceive to be less interesting parts of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Moon+Jun 13 2003, 05:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ Jun 13 2003, 05:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think at least it may promote understanding to a degree. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> An interweb discussion that promotes understanding?! What planet are you from. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We onos'd their base...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you had onoses.. i wouldnt call it 'bad situation' ... when people have to resign by using F4 i can already imagine that it hasnt been much of a fight <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I F4 as soon as i feel that it is getting nowhere and if theres no possible way to win (you know when that happens) . If majority of the opponents F4 .. theres a reason, not all of em can be wrong can they? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> and about that server that bans users that use F4 .. i think they should just go away <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In my case, I will always F4 when the games 'over'. I was just in a server last night (I believe the sx server) and the aliens were saying "Don't kill them, lets just play with them" and they sat around the spawn portal health spraying people to death for about 5 minutes. At that point, and probably before, I would F4 because its pointless. I like to play the game, not sit around in a losing game where I just spawn and die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Theres a big diff than losing and f4'ing and when the other team has 3 hives ocs ever few feet of the map with web and all you have is a single ip and the aliens just want to play around wit ya. in this case i get **** and a large amount of my time is wasted. 30 min of f'n around could be a good quick game or atleast a start into another good long game. Just b/c one team has hmgs fades or even onos no one should f4 in that casel. I've seen people come back with 3 hives up more than plenty of times. you just gotta have faith and the will to do it. But there is a difference between being behind and losing and being totally f'd
As ive mentioned before, some people, myself included, can tell by looking at the team whether or not there is any chance of comeback <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Believe me, if there is I stay because those hard games you work for are the best. But after watching my team play I get a good sense of what they can acomplish
Like when you are on aliens and a minute into the game 3 players go gorg and none of them wants to devolve, i wouldnt say thats an F4 situation, but its definitly a case of "man this is gonna be fun..."
F4 is actully very use full because if people dillpertlly make the game drag on u just pres f4 then they will stop <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have nothing against players choosing to F4 out of what they expect to be an unenjoyable experience. If their prediction is ignorant, then I can be disapointed at their ignorance. I can look to inform them. If they don't want to listen, then fine. People are going to disagree. That's fine.
For example, if my commander goes IP IP TF SENTRY SENTRY SENTRY, or I'm skulking for about 20 minutes to find that we have neither dc's or anything close to a hive or a useful position at all, I'm not expecting the game to be anything but a slow and miserable, unpreventable death. And even if the other team sucks enough to lose to the failure that I'm a part of, I want no part of such a case of retardedness vs retardedness.
IMO, if someone f4's when they see a fade, they're a freaking retard. f4 is not the problem; their ignorance is the problem. Thank freaking god they're not comming at least.
<!--QuoteBegin--Tonzak+Jun 15 2003, 01:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tonzak @ Jun 15 2003, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For example, if my commander goes IP IP TF SENTRY SENTRY SENTRY, or I'm skulking for about 20 minutes to find that we have neither dc's or anything close to a hive or a useful position at all, I'm not expecting the game to be anything but a slow and miserable, unpreventable death. And even if the other team sucks enough to lose to the failure that I'm a part of, I want no part of such a case of retardedness vs retardedness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very nicely put. I wouldn't call everyone who is scared of the game-ender fades a retard, but that quote truly hit the spot. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Though lately I've tried really hard to ignore the feeling of my teams stupidity and inefficiency and just nullify my brains and enjoy the gaming experience. Sometimes it works, other times I end up with the miserable feeling as above.
Here's how I usually handle end-game situations that I believe are lost beyond repair and no longer fun, and how I think they should be handled: 1. Ask the team what they think of it. "Do you guys think we should give up?" If someone says, "No, I think we can still win if we do so-and-so.", I do my best to go with that, even if I myself think it's hopeless. 2. If the whole team agrees on giving up, congratulate the enemy on a game well played, and F4 with the whole team.
I think giving up in a situation where both teams know who has won is simply common courtesy. Sure, you might still win, but only if the enemy makes a grave mistake. So basically, by not F4ing, you're telling the enemy "We know you've really already won, but we want to stick around to see if you do something really stupid, and then take adantage of that." That's just bad manners imho.
To me, once it's completely clear who the winner is going to be, the game is no longer fun, whether I'm on the winning or the losing side.
Obviously, this assumes that everyone on the server knows the game well enough to know what situations are a certain win. Which is probably not all that common. Some people don't seem to see the difference between a 2 hive lockdown with marines in tight control of 3 more res nodes and having decent upgrades, and a 2 hive lockdown with marines controlling only those hives, with not very many upgrades, and aliens controlling the rest of the map. The first situation is a certain win for marines, the second should be won by a good alien team more often than not. I've actually once seen aliens with 2 hives F4. I agreed with them. They only had access to their two hive nodes, and marines were firmly in control of 7. (3 others were sieged, map was ns_nothing) They had no chance, so they F4ed.
Just something to think about: Almost all decent level chess games are conceded at least 5-10 moves before the actual final move would be made. This is considered common courtesy, and not conceding a clearly lost situation is even considered rude.
<!--QuoteBegin--The_Spectre+Jun 15 2003, 06:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The_Spectre @ Jun 15 2003, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just something to think about: Almost all decent level chess games are conceded at least 5-10 moves before the actual final move would be made. This is considered common courtesy, and not conceding a clearly lost situation is even considered rude. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is interesting to ponder that what constitutes "common courtesy" varies somewhat from one type of game to another. Thinking about your chess example has led down interesting neural pathways.
I think some possible reasons why in chess the game is not necessarily played to conclusion. i) The actual act of moving pieces on a chessboard is probably not exciting to many. It is the mental challenge that is exciting. Therefore once the mental challenge is gone (you know the game is over in 5 moves), so is the excitement.
ii) I associate chess with "tradition" and people who are not out to embarras their opponent; and as such they will allow their opponent to surrender "gracefully". Although I'm not certain of the origin of the game it seems to go hand-in-hand with some sort of chivalry/code of honour that dictates certain things be done in certain ways lest ye be a rude-peasant or variant thereof.
iii) Chess...probably not the world's premier spectator sport, therefore no need to please masses of rioting thugs erm.. I mean fans <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
iv) In Chess, one piece captures another solely by relative positions on the board. Also, pieces have well defined ways in which they can be moved. Once the player decides to capture a piece, nothing can save the target piece. This lends itself to why you can say "I can end the game in 5 moves".
Does this relate to NS in anyway ? My thoughts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- i) In NS <b>you are the piece</b>. Therefore the actual act of "moving and capturing pieces on the chessboard" can be quite exciting to the man on the ground. Probably less so to the commander. Because you are the piece, you can feel a level of satisfaction and fun that the commander cannot do, by doing things such as destroying enemy structures. Therefore, even in an end-game situation you can still be having fun and might very well have fun all the way to the end.
ii) Does NS have a tradition/code of honour of sorts ? This seems to vary from server to server and in fact from one game (e.g. StarCraft) to another. Servers that ban for f4 usage for example. Clearly, there does not seem to be a hard and fast rule here. Perhaps a clanner can help me out ... do you guys usually play official matches all the way to the end ? Ultimately, I submit that NS has no established chess-like tradition.
iii) Spectator NS... not sure about how much NS spectating goes on. I'd probably want to see the game end by one team being completely wiped out rather than an f4 surrender. On the other hand I probably wouldn't want to see a game drag on forever and ever either. If f4 was used to break a stalemate... I think I'd be fine with that as a spectator.
iv) In NS you have variables. Variables in skill, experience, network latency, team coordiation and countless others that continually determine outcomes of encounters between marines and aliens. You cannot say because I have a marine here it's a sure thing that I'll be able to kill that alien there. It always depends on players. Therefore the NS end-game is not the same as the chess end-game. There is always a chance of a comeback no matter how tiny. You cannot say "I can end the game in 5 moves" only "Theres a good chance I can end the game shortly".
All in all I'd say "chess common courtesy" does not really have much relevance to "NS common courtesy" in my opinion. They are too different for a number of reasons.
IMO f4 is justified if: i) The other is team is lame and torturing/spawn killing when clearly they could end the game at any time ii) Long stalemate situation. Maybe teams need to be mixed up somewhat. iii) Most of one team has to leave for some or other reason. Obviously a 10 versus 2 game is not very exciting.
Over time I might append to the above list. Reasons such as "clearly the game is won" scare me. They scare me because they can be taken to extremes i.e. "They have fades ! f4". "They have HA! f4". In other words lazy individuals with no desire for challenge and obviously want a Mac Ns game i.e. quick and cheap.
To clarify about the "retardedness vs retardedness" remark, let me give an example. Let's say one team goes sensory first. And yet, the other team just builds tons of turrets, trying to lock down both hives. As an alien, you can say "this game _is_ over, they are just dragging it out. As a marine, you can say "omg, comm sucks, this game is over."
Maybe either team can really win because both are so inept. But it's clear that neither is going to be able to win anytime soon. The aliens shouldn't win. If they win like this, it just means they're bashing completely inept marines. And likewise, etc. It's not NS as we know it. It's a waste of time. Maybe if it's fooling around, it can be fun. But for anyone trying to play NS, it should be quite frustrating.
I like the other points that were brought up: People should try to communicate in such situations. Maybe you can find out what your team thinks, and give them the benefit of the doubt, or play the devil's advocate. Maybe you will help them learn by example, since they disagree with you. Maybe they are the ones who are right, and you will learn. It's one choice you can make.
It's important to be receptive to legitimate genuine ideas that contradict your own; they might be right. To ignore them all and assume you're always right is potentially leading to a reinforcing ignorance.
Then again, of all the comm's that have decided that turret farming and locking down hives was the important thing to do ASAP, I have found that they take much longer to win games, and that they only win when the other team fails to do anything. If they can't stop us from doing that, they couldn't stop us from killing their hive ASAP IMO. But that's theoretical I guess. And likewise etc. with sensory first and the like.
It might also be possible to tell the other team how to finish the game. I've tried it before, but they usually don't believe me. "Come on, three skulks will _own_ our base and end this bs." Yet they never come.
The reason is that games like chess or SC are more static in nature. It just makes the outcome clearer to see like 12 carriers > mass marines. With chess its even more static that you can see the end of the game 5 moves ahead.
Seeing the outcome of a game in NS is not so easy. If you a good you will know you have lost (though there is still fun in the fight). its just all that ignorance like leaving as soon as 3 mistakes are made. lol <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
i love this emoticon lol <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
"Muppet" - a wholly English term. At least I've only NOW encountered it outside of British forums online. But I hear it all the time where I live.
Why? Because some people don't realize that no matter how much they try to impress their moral or personal feelings on other people they will not change their mind because other people have their OWN beliefs and morals. In simpler terms for those who don't understand and wish to continue arguing...
<u><b>YOU CAN'T IMPRESS YOUR OWN GAME RULES UPON OTHER PEOPLE</b></u>
That said, it means if people want to F4, they're going to whether you like it or not. F4ing was coded into the game. Take it out with your own coding if you don't like it. Your piddly server bans mean jack squat if there's 500 other servers. The person who gets banned for F4ing will likely not care a damn if you kick/ban them. And you can go on playing your own personal version of what you THINK the rules should be like. By yourself and your other rule nazi cronies.
GG, topic over man, topic over! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
[fireball]
Fire ball hits, kills all those pansies that F4 when they see a fade or start being spawn camped, as well as those who fools who try and overcome the innevitable with tenacity.
[/fireball]
Although I've seen crazy come backs. To those of you who want to give up when you're being spawn camped: the marine team killed all of us one game and were just sitting at our hive not shooting it, just blowing away skulks when they spawned. The team went, "omg! f4 this sucks". But then one of our l337 skulks spawned (not I unfortunately) and then he literally killed all 8 marines and we went on to eat their IP's + com chair and win the game. Now THAT was a surprise worth staying in the game for. It's not over till it's over.
Although I suppose this thread should be over since neither side seems that much closer to convincing the other.
The point? From now on, I suggest mods "MOOOO" at the end of a topic which produced no real productive information or constructive suggestions as they lock it. Such as ones where two completely differing opinions try to convince one another why their opinion is better than the other persons. Which doesn't happen. Opinions can't be wrong I'm sorry to tell those that think they can...
"OMG Fades, F4"
"OMG HMG's, F4"
F4 sucks when most people want to use it, it also robs the "winners" of the round the satisfaction of wiping out the other team...
Though as with anything F4 has many good uses (AFK, the lone hiding marine giving up, etc) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never give your enemy satisfaction no matter what. I f4, but only when I know it's a -for sure- loss. I think I've been doing it a lot more recently because I feel like i'm constantly surrounded by people that are new or just braindead (mostly brain dead, I CAN (not can't) new people).
And this has been talked about REPEADETLY! If ya wanted to, you could of used Search and read there and necro post if you want, but necroing can be a bit annoying at times.
Pz out
-Para
I think these servers that perma-ban for F4'ing should instead look into perma-banning brats who try to ruin the game for the other team. I'm sure lots less people would be F4'ing if the game was played the way it was meant to be played.
I think at least it may promote understanding to a degree.
Hopefully now people realize that yes some do in fact find killing that last hive very fun and satisfying. While I realize also that people may not have all that much time to play and therefore be more inclined to want to skip what they perceive to be less interesting parts of the game.
An interweb discussion that promotes understanding?! What planet are you from. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
An interweb discussion that promotes understanding?! What planet are you from. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Peace...sunshine...let marines and aliens coexist in harmony !!! <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you had onoses.. i wouldnt call it 'bad situation' ...
when people have to resign by using F4 i can already imagine that it hasnt been much of a fight <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I F4 as soon as i feel that it is getting nowhere and if theres no possible way to win (you know when that happens) .
If majority of the opponents F4 .. theres a reason, not all of em can be wrong can they? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and about that server that bans users that use F4 .. i think they should just go away <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
cheers
mystiqq
Theres a big diff than losing and f4'ing and when the other team has 3 hives ocs ever few feet of the map with web and all you have is a single ip and the aliens just want to play around wit ya. in this case i get **** and a large amount of my time is wasted. 30 min of f'n around could be a good quick game or atleast a start into another good long game.
Just b/c one team has hmgs fades or even onos no one should f4 in that casel. I've seen people come back with 3 hives up more than plenty of times. you just gotta have faith and the will to do it. But there is a difference between being behind and losing and being totally f'd
Believe me, if there is I stay because those hard games you work for are the best. But after watching my team play I get a good sense of what they can acomplish
For example, if my commander goes IP IP TF SENTRY SENTRY SENTRY, or I'm skulking for about 20 minutes to find that we have neither dc's or anything close to a hive or a useful position at all, I'm not expecting the game to be anything but a slow and miserable, unpreventable death. And even if the other team sucks enough to lose to the failure that I'm a part of, I want no part of such a case of retardedness vs retardedness.
IMO, if someone f4's when they see a fade, they're a freaking retard. f4 is not the problem; their ignorance is the problem. Thank freaking god they're not comming at least.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very nicely put. I wouldn't call everyone who is scared of the game-ender fades a retard, but that quote truly hit the spot. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Though lately I've tried really hard to ignore the feeling of my teams stupidity and inefficiency and just nullify my brains and enjoy the gaming experience. Sometimes it works, other times I end up with the miserable feeling as above.
1. Ask the team what they think of it. "Do you guys think we should give up?" If someone says, "No, I think we can still win if we do so-and-so.", I do my best to go with that, even if I myself think it's hopeless.
2. If the whole team agrees on giving up, congratulate the enemy on a game well played, and F4 with the whole team.
I think giving up in a situation where both teams know who has won is simply common courtesy. Sure, you might still win, but only if the enemy makes a grave mistake. So basically, by not F4ing, you're telling the enemy "We know you've really already won, but we want to stick around to see if you do something really stupid, and then take adantage of that." That's just bad manners imho.
To me, once it's completely clear who the winner is going to be, the game is no longer fun, whether I'm on the winning or the losing side.
Obviously, this assumes that everyone on the server knows the game well enough to know what situations are a certain win. Which is probably not all that common. Some people don't seem to see the difference between a 2 hive lockdown with marines in tight control of 3 more res nodes and having decent upgrades, and a 2 hive lockdown with marines controlling only those hives, with not very many upgrades, and aliens controlling the rest of the map. The first situation is a certain win for marines, the second should be won by a good alien team more often than not. I've actually once seen aliens with 2 hives F4. I agreed with them. They only had access to their two hive nodes, and marines were firmly in control of 7. (3 others were sieged, map was ns_nothing) They had no chance, so they F4ed.
Just something to think about: Almost all decent level chess games are conceded at least 5-10 moves before the actual final move would be made. This is considered common courtesy, and not conceding a clearly lost situation is even considered rude.
It is interesting to ponder that what constitutes "common courtesy" varies somewhat from one type of game to another. Thinking about your chess example has led down interesting neural pathways.
I think some possible reasons why in chess the game is not necessarily played to conclusion.
i) The actual act of moving pieces on a chessboard is probably not exciting to many. It is the mental challenge that is exciting. Therefore once the mental challenge is gone (you know the game is over in 5 moves), so is the excitement.
ii) I associate chess with "tradition" and people who are not out to embarras their opponent; and as such they will allow their opponent to surrender "gracefully". Although I'm not certain of the origin of the game it seems to go hand-in-hand with some sort of chivalry/code of honour that dictates certain things be done in certain ways lest ye be a rude-peasant or variant thereof.
iii) Chess...probably not the world's premier spectator sport, therefore no need to please masses of rioting thugs erm.. I mean fans <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
iv) In Chess, one piece captures another solely by relative positions on the board. Also, pieces have well defined ways in which they can be moved. Once the player decides to capture a piece, nothing can save the target piece. This lends itself to why you can say "I can end the game in 5 moves".
Does this relate to NS in anyway ? My thoughts.
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i) In NS <b>you are the piece</b>. Therefore the actual act of "moving and capturing pieces on the chessboard" can be quite exciting to the man on the ground. Probably less so to the commander. Because you are the piece, you can feel a level of satisfaction and fun that the commander cannot do, by doing things such as destroying enemy structures. Therefore, even in an end-game situation you can still be having fun and might very well have fun all the way to the end.
ii) Does NS have a tradition/code of honour of sorts ? This seems to vary from server to server and in fact from one game (e.g. StarCraft) to another. Servers that ban for f4 usage for example. Clearly, there does not seem to be a hard and fast rule here. Perhaps a clanner can help me out ... do you guys usually play official matches all the way to the end ? Ultimately, I submit that NS has no established chess-like tradition.
iii) Spectator NS... not sure about how much NS spectating goes on. I'd probably want to see the game end by one team being completely wiped out rather than an f4 surrender. On the other hand I probably wouldn't want to see a game drag on forever and ever either. If f4 was used to break a stalemate... I think I'd be fine with that as a spectator.
iv) In NS you have variables. Variables in skill, experience, network latency, team coordiation and countless others that continually determine outcomes of encounters between marines and aliens. You cannot say because I have a marine here it's a sure thing that I'll be able to kill that alien there. It always depends on players. Therefore the NS end-game is not the same as the chess end-game. There is always a chance of a comeback no matter how tiny. You cannot say "I can end the game in 5 moves" only "Theres a good chance I can end the game shortly".
All in all I'd say "chess common courtesy" does not really have much relevance to "NS common courtesy" in my opinion. They are too different for a number of reasons.
IMO f4 is justified if:
i) The other is team is lame and torturing/spawn killing when clearly they could end the game at any time
ii) Long stalemate situation. Maybe teams need to be mixed up somewhat.
iii) Most of one team has to leave for some or other reason. Obviously a 10 versus 2 game is not very exciting.
Over time I might append to the above list. Reasons such as "clearly the game is won" scare me. They scare me because they can be taken to extremes i.e. "They have fades ! f4". "They have HA! f4". In other words lazy individuals with no desire for challenge and obviously want a Mac Ns game i.e. quick and cheap.
Maybe either team can really win because both are so inept. But it's clear that neither is going to be able to win anytime soon. The aliens shouldn't win. If they win like this, it just means they're bashing completely inept marines. And likewise, etc. It's not NS as we know it. It's a waste of time. Maybe if it's fooling around, it can be fun. But for anyone trying to play NS, it should be quite frustrating.
I like the other points that were brought up: People should try to communicate in such situations. Maybe you can find out what your team thinks, and give them the benefit of the doubt, or play the devil's advocate. Maybe you will help them learn by example, since they disagree with you. Maybe they are the ones who are right, and you will learn. It's one choice you can make.
It's important to be receptive to legitimate genuine ideas that contradict your own; they might be right. To ignore them all and assume you're always right is potentially leading to a reinforcing ignorance.
Then again, of all the comm's that have decided that turret farming and locking down hives was the important thing to do ASAP, I have found that they take much longer to win games, and that they only win when the other team fails to do anything. If they can't stop us from doing that, they couldn't stop us from killing their hive ASAP IMO. But that's theoretical I guess. And likewise etc. with sensory first and the like.
It might also be possible to tell the other team how to finish the game. I've tried it before, but they usually don't believe me. "Come on, three skulks will _own_ our base and end this bs." Yet they never come.
Seeing the outcome of a game in NS is not so easy. If you a good you will know you have lost (though there is still fun in the fight). its just all that ignorance like leaving as soon as 3 mistakes are made. lol <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
i love this emoticon lol <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->