Speed2Dave represents me and my feelings on this subject pefectly. I too played Starcraft for a year or two of my life, and nobody ever complains if the loosing team doesn't stick it out. Its not cowardly, its not "stealing your win away". Why would you just want to kill the hive and annihilate when you already know the outcome? When I command and I see the aliens F4, to tell the truth I really don't mind. They are admitting we won and we outplayed them, under any circumstances, even three minutes into the game.
Why this topic has come up so many times boggles my mind. The point of the game is to win, not to prolong the game as long as possible.
I think the anti-F4 people are those who'd rather kill the enemy than win the game. I don't deny it either, we all gain some satisfaction by killing one of the enemy. But now it has come to the point where people would rather prolong a situation where they could kill the enemy with ease rather than start a new game and have a level playing field.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This "sportsmanship" concept is a social issue and only relevant if you know the people you're playing with. It's about trust and visible commitment. This concept isn't applicable to random, anonymous Internet players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is what is inherantly wrong with online gaming.
I do not usually f4, and never on a whim, because sitting in the readyroom waiting for the game to end is more of a waste of time then fighting a losing fight. If its that bad, I'll find another server instead.
That said, if you want to throw around words like dishonorable, lame, and cheap, spawncamping fits them all. The point of the game is to END the game, not drag it on for some misguided adrenaline rush. When I play as alien (I go random, so that is almost all the time), one of my first targets is the IP. The marines cannot spawn in, and a victory is almost assured unless the comm does some quick thinking. To not go for the IP is to miss the point of the game. It bothers me when I hear my teammates yelling at me for attacking the IP because they want more kills or upgrades.
As a marine, it is a little tougher to take out a hive as a single person. You generally dont have enough ammo to take out a hive (unless you have HMG/GL). When the comm and other teammates are not helping to take out the hive and are dragging it out, that is much worse. Yes to end in a solid victory is fun and should be exciting for all, a prolonged slaughter is not fun, and should feel hollow to the victors. Watching a JP/HMGer fly around shooting structures to get attention and never attacking the hive, even when standing on it is a waste of resources and a break in team play. Watching them do it for 10 minutes is offensive.
Finish the game, change up the teams, and try again for a more interesting game. That is the point for the team gamer, not self gratification for shooting people as they spawn in.
Note: I speak of pubs, not the more balanced play of real team gamers - I'm sure some outstanding comebacks happen, but they are more rare than spawncampers and that is why f4 is left in.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They want to have some fun, so give it to them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Delta...I play NS for MY fun, not other peoples. I could care less if other people want fun. As I said...if other people enjoy sitting under a hive and shooting the first thing that spawns. Or standing around an IP waiting for a marine to spawn just so they can kill....then they dont' need to be in a multiplayer server, they can do the same thing in a single player map.
I do agree with whoever said it above...most of those against F4 seem to be those who like to drag games on and try to 'savor' the win for lack of a better word. In my eyes, I would rather start the next game and have another challenge...not drag out a losing game or a winning game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Keyser59+Jun 11 2003, 07:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ Jun 11 2003, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why this topic has come up so many times boggles my mind. The point of the game is to win, not to prolong the game as long as possible.
I think the anti-F4 people are those who'd rather kill the enemy than win the game. I don't deny it either, we all gain some satisfaction by killing one of the enemy. But now it has come to the point where people would rather prolong a situation where they could kill the enemy with ease rather than start a new game and have a level playing field. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This topic has come up so many times because it is - as evident here- something that players feel strongly about one way or another. I would say that the point of the game is not only to win, but to have fun doing so within reason. Blatantly tormenting the losing team by leaving nothing but IPs/hives alive etc and spawn killing is obviously something that I think everyone strongly frowns upon.
The anti-F4 people are a mixed group. I enjoy the challenges involved with killing the enemy. I enjoy the challenges involved with base destruction. Hence when people f4 the opportunity to end the round "properly" and kill their bases is lost and this bugs me. It's not about prolonging the game for me, it's ending it the way it was meant to be ended, with one side being wiped out totally.
This is where we differ: Killing hives does not seem to hold much interest for you. But for me and others it does. For me at least, its not about killing x skulks with my super-duper fancy gun etc. its about killing their base and wiping them out for the good of mankind ! <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Tiax-+Jun 11 2003, 09:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tiax- @ Jun 11 2003, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They want to have some fun, so give it to them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Delta...I play NS for MY fun, not other peoples. I could care less if other people want fun.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is that you are not in a closed system. The minute you join a multiplayer game means that you are in an environment where many people are wanting to have fun. And I submit to you that your fun depends on their fun. Think they're going to want to play if they're not having a good time ? And where does that leave you ? With nobody to play with eventually.
This is why a cheater can clear out a server quicker than you can say OMG. Nobody wants to hang around because it has ceased to be fun for them.
And hey, I play for MY fun also. However I at least recognize the fact that sometimes its good to do a sporting thing and maybe sacrifice some of my fun for somebody else. Again all within reason. They might just in turn be willing to do the same for you...who knows ?
Respect your opponents everyone; without them there'd be no games in the first place.
Well, I guess we can see that those that F4 stop playing the game when we cease entertaining them. I suggest we make a server out there that lets them always win, so that we never make them bored again.
well look at it this way, how would you like to get through a real hard game finally turn the tide's your about to finish them off with a large victory and then all the sudden "team %n has won" and you didnt even get to annihilate your enemy? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ever had someone you were playing a game with (in the same room) throw down the controller and storm out of the room because they lost? There are players who do the equivalent in NS. Something along the same lines is generally what people get mad over.
F4 does have valid uses; it's in for a reason. Abuse is what ticks us off.
I agree in part Moon, what I meant by that statement (which you can see if you read the post I replied to), was that im not going to sit in a server for half an hour so that someone can have "fun" and kill me over and over.
as said before...f4 sucks when it robs the winning team of satisfaction of actually winning the round, only because the losers couldnt be bothered sticking around to get owned <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
having said that there's also times where the f4 is needed, such as in the case where there's one rine left and no-one can find him (although at most times its fun to watch this), i'd be inclined to use it if there's been a marine stack just to restart and make it fair
and if there's a 2 hive lockdown/stalemate situation, and marines are just sitting back and turret farming
having siad that, i'm totally against the "OMG marines have dbl res f4 now!" and all that stuff <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still don't see how it takes the satisfaction of winning. You really have to see the IP/Com chair explode into the little puff of smoke to feel that you won the round? You don't get the same satisfaction from simply...winning?
Just today I joined a game, hopped on alien since it looked like they neede dhelp. The marines had processing already as their base. I figured id give it a few minutes to see if we could kill them. Once they got JP and HMG though I went ahead nad F4ed and spectated the rest of the game. At that point I knew it was over...and as usual, I was right.
Course that situation isnt' quite the "two hives, I quit". Because when all 8 marines can stand (and fly) around one room and control the game there really is little chance to win unless they really suck (which they didn't). Early on before I quit I almost had their IP but there was so many mines plastered all over the place when the com popped out there was little I could do. I really do hate that hera map. Its a ncie map but makes for some very boring games if marines get processing. Usually when im in from the start they don't sense I make sure aliens guard it....but, in this case I wasn't, I joined late.
<!--QuoteBegin--Tiax-+Jun 11 2003, 10:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tiax- @ Jun 11 2003, 10:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still don't see how it takes the satisfaction of winning. You really have to see the IP/Com chair explode into the little puff of smoke to feel that you won the round? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's right! You're catching on.
<!--QuoteBegin--Tiax-+Jun 11 2003, 10:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tiax- @ Jun 11 2003, 10:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree in part Moon, what I meant by that statement (which you can see if you read the post I replied to), was that im not going to sit in a server for half an hour so that someone can have "fun" and kill me over and over. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I understand where you are coming from I think. I agree that if the other team is being lame and spawn killing etc. that f4 is justified. Not many people enjoy being a spawn-target (including me).
<!--QuoteBegin--MedHead+Jun 12 2003, 12:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Jun 12 2003, 12:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Tiax-+Jun 11 2003, 10:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tiax- @ Jun 11 2003, 10:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still don't see how it takes the satisfaction of winning. You really have to see the IP/Com chair explode into the little puff of smoke to feel that you won the round? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's right! You're catching on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed, that little puff of smoke is very satisfying <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> *puff* <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think for the most part F4'ing in these "llama" situation is all well and good. But the reason most people have a problem with F4'ing to the point where servers insta-ban is the fact that because you have an option to give up and just go to the next round, the game no longer stays competitive. If the marines see fades before they get their heavy gear, they can just F4 and start a new game and hope to not make the same mistake. If there was no F4 they'd be forced to try and learn how to deal with the situation, create a strategy and implement it (although that rarely happens as much I wish it would) until they can get their gear up.
Also, am I the only StarCraft player who hated hearing "opponentsoandso has left the game". Personally I enjoyed the satisfaction of knowing every last building was destroyed. And I'd never leave a game as long as I still had some hope of fighting on. Perhaps there is no honor/sportsmanship among gamers these days.
<!--QuoteBegin--[WWJD]JesusC+Jun 12 2003, 12:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WWJD]JesusC @ Jun 12 2003, 12:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Perhaps there is no honor/sportsmanship among gamers these days. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude, you ever play paintball? If you were within 3 feet of a guy who had his gun aimed right for you, would you surrender, or wait for him to shoot you because you don't want to rob him of the pleasure of hitting someone with a paintball? Personally, if I'm the last guy on the team (I always am, IRL, in games, wherever), and you're being converged on like a fallen deer by a pack of wolves sure I'd surrender, maybe I'd try to sneak around and get 1-2 of them, but in the end I don't wanna get shot, and when they know where I am (and that I'm the last), I'll just surrender. I don't like pain too too much.
Back on topic, I would like to agree with the "F4'ing is lame"-party's view on a few points. It is <b>very</b> anti-climatic to get ready to do your final assault on your enemy, only to see a "you win" to pop up. I am disoriented for a few seconds, mad for a few more, then calm. They admitted defeat, there is honor in yielding. People, who are on the marine team, who like to play "I'm hiding! hahahahahaha, find me ONeONE1!" are more annoying than anything, give a good reason for a POD for either team, or no POD for either team (that's a different story and should be put into a different thread). If I would get instabanned for F4'ing and robbing that llama of stalling everyone else, then I'm glad I get to never play on that server again.
As for you anti-F4'ers, there are PROs to having members F4, especially on the alien side. Shorter respawn queue. I know I'm not as good an alien player as some others. I'm willing to F4, and let them have at it for a while, gaining res faster, and respawning faster (as I no longer die and clog up the queue). That actually could potentially give the alien team more of an advantage than by me sticking around. For the marines, someone who F4's is someone less that the comm has to worry about.
[disclaimer]We're all starting to get really emotional about this topic. Make sure you take a few breaths before posting (mine was more primitive a few minutes ago), and choose your words wisely. This is a very sore subject for many of us. If there are any particular nasty parts in ANY of my posts, ever, please don't hesitate to PM me so I can edit them as I see fit. I don't want to turn this into a flamewar.[/disclaimer]
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jun 11 2003, 05:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jun 11 2003, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This "sportsmanship" concept is a social issue and only relevant if you <i>know</i> the people you're playing with. It's about trust and visible commitment. This concept isn't applicable to random, anonymous Internet players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it is really pathetic (and depressing) that many people (maybe even a majority of people) would agree with this. And not just in the Online game enviroment, but like Twex they feel this way about life in general, where commitment is considered antiquated and useless in all aspects of life.
The fact of the of the matter is some (most) people will believe in F4, and because of that they won't think once about it. Then there will be some people (the minority) who don't believe in F4, and won't change there their minds no matter what. Some people believe commitment, resolve and sportsmanship is dead (or doesn't apply to them), and others believe that practicing a virtue (wether they think it is alive or not) can't hurt. What we really should be afraid of is the people who believe that virtue exists but choose to practice vice depite it.
Which do you consider the competition, and associated victory to be best represented by in a game of NS:
- The hard-faught midgame struggle, where teams clash on an even footing, with play swinging back and forth untill one team or the other finally gains the advantage that secures them the game.
OR
- The meaningless and tiresome wrap up time of spending 5 minutes hunting down the last remaining buildings and marines. Sieging through a ridiculous amount of defence so you can perform the necessary task of looking at a hive for 10 seconds while holding down the HMG trigger. So you can finally end the game that was won quite some time ago and get back to the real competition of trying to gain a decisive advantage over your opponent.
In Warcraft 3, not conceeding a game when you have effectively lost, and forcing your opponent to perform the monotonous task of destroying every last building you have on the map is considered extremely poor sportsmanship. Staying in a game is done for the purpose of **** your opponent off when you dislike his strategies or his tone over text comms.
If you do NOT F4 in an NS match that you have clearly lost, you are forcing me and my team to play an additional 'however many minutes' of play that is MEANINGLESS, that does not determine the outcome of the game in any way and in the majority of circumstances requires very little effort or skill from us at all. I do not appreciate that.
To take extreme pleasure only from the wrap up time of a game shows that you specifically enjoying playing a scenario where you cannot possibly lose. You are afraid of the competition that will be revived after the match is conceeded and restarted on an even footing. Satisfaction comes from defeating an opponent, not from 2 minutes worth of goring a CC untill it finally explodes. I can sit a hamster on my keyboard and he can perform that task quite adequately.
Not recognising when a game has been won is a sign that you're inexperienced. Thankyou and goodnight.
This topic is going to end in a cataclysmic firball of meteoric death from the heavens above.
Why? Because some people don't realize that no matter how much they try to impress their moral or personal feelings on other people they will not change their mind because other people have their OWN beliefs and morals. In simpler terms for those who don't understand and wish to continue arguing...
<u><b>YOU CAN'T IMPRESS YOUR OWN GAME RULES UPON OTHER PEOPLE</b></u>
That said, it means if people want to F4, they're going to whether you like it or not. F4ing was coded into the game. Take it out with your own coding if you don't like it. Your piddly server bans mean jack squat if there's 500 other servers. The person who gets banned for F4ing will likely not care a damn if you kick/ban them. And you can go on playing your own personal version of what you THINK the rules should be like. By yourself and your other rule nazi cronies.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Jun 12 2003, 06:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jun 12 2003, 06:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Which do you consider the competition, and associated victory to be best represented by in a game of NS:
- The hard-faught midgame struggle, where teams clash on an even footing, with play swinging back and forth untill one team or the other finally gains the advantage that secures them the game.
OR
- The meaningless and tiresome wrap up time of spending 5 minutes hunting down the last remaining buildings and marines. Sieging through a ridiculous amount of defence so you can perform the necessary task of looking at a hive for 10 seconds while holding down the HMG trigger. So you can finally end the game that was won quite some time ago and get back to the real competition of trying to gain a decisive advantage over your opponent.
In Warcraft 3, not conceeding a game when you have effectively lost, and forcing your opponent to perform the monotonous task of destroying every last building you have on the map is considered extremely poor sportsmanship. Staying in a game is done for the purpose of **** your opponent off when you dislike his strategies or his tone over text comms.
If you do NOT F4 in an NS match that you have clearly lost, you are forcing me and my team to play an additional 'however many minutes' of play that is MEANINGLESS, that does not determine the outcome of the game in any way and in the majority of circumstances requires very little effort or skill from us at all. I do not appreciate that.
To take extreme pleasure only from the wrap up time of a game shows that you specifically enjoying playing a scenario where you cannot possibly lose. You are afraid of the competition that will be revived after the match is conceeded and restarted on an even footing. Satisfaction comes from defeating an opponent, not from 2 minutes worth of goring a CC untill it finally explodes. I can sit a hamster on my keyboard and he can perform that task quite adequately.
Not recognising when a game has been won is a sign that you're inexperienced. Thankyou and goodnight. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but yours seems exceptionally biased.
Not all see the wrap up time as "meaningless"; some see it as the completion of a job well done. Certain activities in life should be drawn to their conclusion. If you were building a house for someone and had it 95% complete and then said "well, clearly the house is practically finished so lets stop here" do you think that would go over well with your client ? Of course we are dealing with a game here, but the point never-the-less illustrates how some of us feel about being denied the chance to destroy all enemy bases.
Another problem I have is people tend to decide far too quickly when a match is lost. Some of them, declare gg within one minute of starting if a comm builds a single turret in home base for crying out loud ! There is a serious problem with that sort of mentality. Granted sometimes it is rather obvious when one side has little chance of a comeback, but still, I'd rather play things out and make sure of the win all the same.
I dislike the idea of a "Mac Ns" game...where everybody is just wanting speedy/cheap conclusions.
Perhaps it is because I like to role-play somewhat as well. "Realistically" I don't see either side having the option to magically vanish, it is a meta-game concept.
Ultimately what have here though is essentially "satisfaction" / "fun" etc are subjective... what is fun for you is not necessarily fun for me and vice versa.
I'm not really sure what the solution is exactly unfortunately. I guess its the majority of people in any one particular game that will dictate what happens at the end. So be it.
I think Twisted Master is the light of reason, we can argue and flame and scream at each other all day, but nobody's opinion is going to change.
So, I suppose find the server you feel most comfortable with, and stick to it. Do NOT try to go into someone else's server and start telling them what to do and how to admin their server, that usually just ticks off everyone.
Damn, this almost seems like it should belong in a disussion forum of some sort.
<!--QuoteBegin--ThinG+Jun 11 2003, 09:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ThinG @ Jun 11 2003, 09:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you don't mind and want games to end by muppets who **** their pants when they see a fade, play anywhere <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Something I've always wondered: what the *bleep* is a muppet? (in NS terms that is, not the weird TV dolls <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->)
No... The game is over when I think its over. Im the one thats playing, for all i know all the other "players" are figments of stupidity on the internet welled into one mass controled by AOL chatrooms and vin desil fansites.
am I the one that has to deal with 5 marines sitting under the hive spawncapping for 10 minutes, hell no. am I the one thats going to sit there while the com gives innane orders to attack our own res node and "build more chambers", not a chance. The game is over when im not having fun anymore, period. last time i checked, the point of playing games was to have fun. when it stops being enjoyable i F4, if the server doesnt like that, thats a **** server, there are thousands of others.
The whole devour thing makes sense, but theres still no way from stopping the marine being devoured from going "**** devour **** onos **** ****" and reconnecting... or even turning off the power.
I think the point is that no one, despite what they tell you, wants to be <u>trapped</u> in a game they no longer have fun playing.
A muppet is, basically, an idiot. Head over to Roob's *no time for muppets* NS Server and ask what one is to get a pile of definitions. These include stuff like "anyone who puts a tf in base" and so on...
Most of this has been said already, but I'll chirp in anyways <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
F4 as a means to end the game quickly is a cheap and unsportsman-like way out of losing. Yes, the F4 team still technically "lost" but it is a shallow and "unfulfilled" victory for the winning team. No one wants to spend 30 minutes building up a map and fighting for victory only to have the opposing team quit the game because they don't want to keep getting killed while waiting for the inevitable.
That said, I can understand an F4 very early in the round. If your team makes a huge error (sensory first, multiple n00b gorges that go off and get killed, TF/turrets all over marine spawn) and any prolonging of the game will just lead to a group of frustrated players, then an F4 can just end it right away before it gets any further and wastes people's time. Wipe the slate clean and just start over. I think there is a 5 minute window for something like that. Any longer and you should play the game until conclusion.
Its a matter of whether the conditions are actually as miserable as they seem. Some people F4 at the first sign of a Fade. WTH plenty games are won still, but its people like that that totally ruin it because that 1 extra person could have helped. When I comm, and then gain one slight advantage, its funny to see all the aliens leaving and quitting even though my advantage isn't as great as it seems. That's why F4 is generally frowned upon unlike in War3 or SC you would have 0 chance of recovery.
The server I play at most has it disabled. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I agree that there are occasions when it is reasonable to F4, but I think fighting to the death is generally more fun, win or lose. What I hate is when someone sees fades/HMGs and keeps telling everyone to F4 but never does so himself. Twenty minutes of someone idiot bleating "omg we're going to lose, WHY won't you F4? Come on, F4!" is just irritating.
Comments
Why this topic has come up so many times boggles my mind. The point of the game is to win, not to prolong the game as long as possible.
I think the anti-F4 people are those who'd rather kill the enemy than win the game. I don't deny it either, we all gain some satisfaction by killing one of the enemy. But now it has come to the point where people would rather prolong a situation where they could kill the enemy with ease rather than start a new game and have a level playing field.
And this is what is inherantly wrong with online gaming.
That said, if you want to throw around words like dishonorable, lame, and cheap, spawncamping fits them all. The point of the game is to END the game, not drag it on for some misguided adrenaline rush. When I play as alien (I go random, so that is almost all the time), one of my first targets is the IP. The marines cannot spawn in, and a victory is almost assured unless the comm does some quick thinking. To not go for the IP is to miss the point of the game. It bothers me when I hear my teammates yelling at me for attacking the IP because they want more kills or upgrades.
As a marine, it is a little tougher to take out a hive as a single person. You generally dont have enough ammo to take out a hive (unless you have HMG/GL). When the comm and other teammates are not helping to take out the hive and are dragging it out, that is much worse. Yes to end in a solid victory is fun and should be exciting for all, a prolonged slaughter is not fun, and should feel hollow to the victors. Watching a JP/HMGer fly around shooting structures to get attention and never attacking the hive, even when standing on it is a waste of resources and a break in team play. Watching them do it for 10 minutes is offensive.
Finish the game, change up the teams, and try again for a more interesting game. That is the point for the team gamer, not self gratification for shooting people as they spawn in.
Note: I speak of pubs, not the more balanced play of real team gamers - I'm sure some outstanding comebacks happen, but they are more rare than spawncampers and that is why f4 is left in.
Delta...I play NS for MY fun, not other peoples. I could care less if other people want fun. As I said...if other people enjoy sitting under a hive and shooting the first thing that spawns. Or standing around an IP waiting for a marine to spawn just so they can kill....then they dont' need to be in a multiplayer server, they can do the same thing in a single player map.
I do agree with whoever said it above...most of those against F4 seem to be those who like to drag games on and try to 'savor' the win for lack of a better word. In my eyes, I would rather start the next game and have another challenge...not drag out a losing game or a winning game.
I think the anti-F4 people are those who'd rather kill the enemy than win the game. I don't deny it either, we all gain some satisfaction by killing one of the enemy. But now it has come to the point where people would rather prolong a situation where they could kill the enemy with ease rather than start a new game and have a level playing field. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This topic has come up so many times because it is - as evident here- something that players feel strongly about one way or another. I would say that the point of the game is not only to win, but to have fun doing so within reason. Blatantly tormenting the losing team by leaving nothing but IPs/hives alive etc and spawn killing is obviously something that I think everyone strongly frowns upon.
The anti-F4 people are a mixed group. I enjoy the challenges involved with killing the enemy. I enjoy the challenges involved with base destruction. Hence when people f4 the opportunity to end the round "properly" and kill their bases is lost and this bugs me. It's not about prolonging the game for me, it's ending it the way it was meant to be ended, with one side being wiped out totally.
This is where we differ: Killing hives does not seem to hold much interest for you. But for me and others it does. For me at least, its not about killing x skulks with my super-duper fancy gun etc. its about killing their base and wiping them out for the good of mankind ! <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
Delta...I play NS for MY fun, not other peoples. I could care less if other people want fun.
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The problem is that you are not in a closed system. The minute you join a multiplayer game means that you are in an environment where many people are wanting to have fun. And I submit to you that your fun depends on their fun. Think they're going to want to play if they're not having a good time ? And where does that leave you ? With nobody to play with eventually.
This is why a cheater can clear out a server quicker than you can say OMG. Nobody wants to hang around because it has ceased to be fun for them.
And hey, I play for MY fun also. However I at least recognize the fact that sometimes its good to do a sporting thing and maybe sacrifice some of my fun for somebody else. Again all within reason. They might just in turn be willing to do the same for you...who knows ?
Respect your opponents everyone; without them there'd be no games in the first place.
F4 does have valid uses; it's in for a reason. Abuse is what ticks us off.
having said that there's also times where the f4 is needed, such as in the case where there's one rine left and no-one can find him (although at most times its fun to watch this), i'd be inclined to use it if there's been a marine stack just to restart and make it fair
and if there's a 2 hive lockdown/stalemate situation, and marines are just sitting back and turret farming
having siad that, i'm totally against the "OMG marines have dbl res f4 now!" and all that stuff <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just today I joined a game, hopped on alien since it looked like they neede dhelp. The marines had processing already as their base. I figured id give it a few minutes to see if we could kill them. Once they got JP and HMG though I went ahead nad F4ed and spectated the rest of the game. At that point I knew it was over...and as usual, I was right.
Course that situation isnt' quite the "two hives, I quit". Because when all 8 marines can stand (and fly) around one room and control the game there really is little chance to win unless they really suck (which they didn't). Early on before I quit I almost had their IP but there was so many mines plastered all over the place when the com popped out there was little I could do. I really do hate that hera map. Its a ncie map but makes for some very boring games if marines get processing. Usually when im in from the start they don't sense I make sure aliens guard it....but, in this case I wasn't, I joined late.
That's right! You're catching on.
I understand where you are coming from I think. I agree that if the other team is being lame and spawn killing etc. that f4 is justified. Not many people enjoy being a spawn-target (including me).
That's right! You're catching on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, that little puff of smoke is very satisfying <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> *puff* <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, am I the only StarCraft player who hated hearing "opponentsoandso has left the game". Personally I enjoyed the satisfaction of knowing every last building was destroyed. And I'd never leave a game as long as I still had some hope of fighting on. Perhaps there is no honor/sportsmanship among gamers these days.
Dude, you ever play paintball? If you were within 3 feet of a guy who had his gun aimed right for you, would you surrender, or wait for him to shoot you because you don't want to rob him of the pleasure of hitting someone with a paintball? Personally, if I'm the last guy on the team (I always am, IRL, in games, wherever), and you're being converged on like a fallen deer by a pack of wolves sure I'd surrender, maybe I'd try to sneak around and get 1-2 of them, but in the end I don't wanna get shot, and when they know where I am (and that I'm the last), I'll just surrender. I don't like pain too too much.
Back on topic, I would like to agree with the "F4'ing is lame"-party's view on a few points. It is <b>very</b> anti-climatic to get ready to do your final assault on your enemy, only to see a "you win" to pop up. I am disoriented for a few seconds, mad for a few more, then calm. They admitted defeat, there is honor in yielding. People, who are on the marine team, who like to play "I'm hiding! hahahahahaha, find me ONeONE1!" are more annoying than anything, give a good reason for a POD for either team, or no POD for either team (that's a different story and should be put into a different thread). If I would get instabanned for F4'ing and robbing that llama of stalling everyone else, then I'm glad I get to never play on that server again.
As for you anti-F4'ers, there are PROs to having members F4, especially on the alien side. Shorter respawn queue. I know I'm not as good an alien player as some others. I'm willing to F4, and let them have at it for a while, gaining res faster, and respawning faster (as I no longer die and clog up the queue). That actually could potentially give the alien team more of an advantage than by me sticking around. For the marines, someone who F4's is someone less that the comm has to worry about.
[disclaimer]We're all starting to get really emotional about this topic. Make sure you take a few breaths before posting (mine was more primitive a few minutes ago), and choose your words wisely. This is a very sore subject for many of us. If there are any particular nasty parts in ANY of my posts, ever, please don't hesitate to PM me so I can edit them as I see fit. I don't want to turn this into a flamewar.[/disclaimer]
I think it is really pathetic (and depressing) that many people (maybe even a majority of people) would agree with this. And not just in the Online game enviroment, but like Twex they feel this way about life in general, where commitment is considered antiquated and useless in all aspects of life.
The fact of the of the matter is some (most) people will believe in F4, and because of that they won't think once about it. Then there will be some people (the minority) who don't believe in F4, and won't change there their minds no matter what. Some people believe commitment, resolve and sportsmanship is dead (or doesn't apply to them), and others believe that practicing a virtue (wether they think it is alive or not) can't hurt. What we really should be afraid of is the people who believe that virtue exists but choose to practice vice depite it.
<img src='http://images.lamer.net/buddychrist-sucks.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
- The hard-faught midgame struggle, where teams clash on an even footing, with play swinging back and forth untill one team or the other finally gains the advantage that secures them the game.
OR
- The meaningless and tiresome wrap up time of spending 5 minutes hunting down the last remaining buildings and marines. Sieging through a ridiculous amount of defence so you can perform the necessary task of looking at a hive for 10 seconds while holding down the HMG trigger. So you can finally end the game that was won quite some time ago and get back to the real competition of trying to gain a decisive advantage over your opponent.
In Warcraft 3, not conceeding a game when you have effectively lost, and forcing your opponent to perform the monotonous task of destroying every last building you have on the map is considered extremely poor sportsmanship. Staying in a game is done for the purpose of **** your opponent off when you dislike his strategies or his tone over text comms.
If you do NOT F4 in an NS match that you have clearly lost, you are forcing me and my team to play an additional 'however many minutes' of play that is MEANINGLESS, that does not determine the outcome of the game in any way and in the majority of circumstances requires very little effort or skill from us at all. I do not appreciate that.
To take extreme pleasure only from the wrap up time of a game shows that you specifically enjoying playing a scenario where you cannot possibly lose. You are afraid of the competition that will be revived after the match is conceeded and restarted on an even footing. Satisfaction comes from defeating an opponent, not from 2 minutes worth of goring a CC untill it finally explodes. I can sit a hamster on my keyboard and he can perform that task quite adequately.
Not recognising when a game has been won is a sign that you're inexperienced. Thankyou and goodnight.
Why? Because some people don't realize that no matter how much they try to impress their moral or personal feelings on other people they will not change their mind because other people have their OWN beliefs and morals. In simpler terms for those who don't understand and wish to continue arguing...
<u><b>YOU CAN'T IMPRESS YOUR OWN GAME RULES UPON OTHER PEOPLE</b></u>
That said, it means if people want to F4, they're going to whether you like it or not. F4ing was coded into the game. Take it out with your own coding if you don't like it. Your piddly server bans mean jack squat if there's 500 other servers. The person who gets banned for F4ing will likely not care a damn if you kick/ban them. And you can go on playing your own personal version of what you THINK the rules should be like. By yourself and your other rule nazi cronies.
GG, topic over man, topic over!
- The hard-faught midgame struggle, where teams clash on an even footing, with play swinging back and forth untill one team or the other finally gains the advantage that secures them the game.
OR
- The meaningless and tiresome wrap up time of spending 5 minutes hunting down the last remaining buildings and marines. Sieging through a ridiculous amount of defence so you can perform the necessary task of looking at a hive for 10 seconds while holding down the HMG trigger. So you can finally end the game that was won quite some time ago and get back to the real competition of trying to gain a decisive advantage over your opponent.
In Warcraft 3, not conceeding a game when you have effectively lost, and forcing your opponent to perform the monotonous task of destroying every last building you have on the map is considered extremely poor sportsmanship. Staying in a game is done for the purpose of **** your opponent off when you dislike his strategies or his tone over text comms.
If you do NOT F4 in an NS match that you have clearly lost, you are forcing me and my team to play an additional 'however many minutes' of play that is MEANINGLESS, that does not determine the outcome of the game in any way and in the majority of circumstances requires very little effort or skill from us at all. I do not appreciate that.
To take extreme pleasure only from the wrap up time of a game shows that you specifically enjoying playing a scenario where you cannot possibly lose. You are afraid of the competition that will be revived after the match is conceeded and restarted on an even footing. Satisfaction comes from defeating an opponent, not from 2 minutes worth of goring a CC untill it finally explodes. I can sit a hamster on my keyboard and he can perform that task quite adequately.
Not recognising when a game has been won is a sign that you're inexperienced. Thankyou and goodnight. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but yours seems exceptionally biased.
Not all see the wrap up time as "meaningless"; some see it as the completion of a job well done. Certain activities in life should be drawn to their conclusion. If you were building a house for someone and had it 95% complete and then said "well, clearly the house is practically finished so lets stop here" do you think that would go over well with your client ? Of course we are dealing with a game here, but the point never-the-less illustrates how some of us feel about being denied the chance to destroy all enemy bases.
Another problem I have is people tend to decide far too quickly when a match is lost. Some of them, declare gg within one minute of starting if a comm builds a single turret in home base for crying out loud ! There is a serious problem with that sort of mentality. Granted sometimes it is rather obvious when one side has little chance of a comeback, but still, I'd rather play things out and make sure of the win all the same.
I dislike the idea of a "Mac Ns" game...where everybody is just wanting speedy/cheap conclusions.
Perhaps it is because I like to role-play somewhat as well. "Realistically" I don't see either side having the option to magically vanish, it is a meta-game concept.
Ultimately what have here though is essentially "satisfaction" / "fun" etc are subjective... what is fun for you is not necessarily fun for me and vice versa.
I'm not really sure what the solution is exactly unfortunately. I guess its the majority of people in any one particular game that will dictate what happens at the end. So be it.
So, I suppose find the server you feel most comfortable with, and stick to it. Do NOT try to go into someone else's server and start telling them what to do and how to admin their server, that usually just ticks off everyone.
Damn, this almost seems like it should belong in a disussion forum of some sort.
Something I've always wondered: what the *bleep* is a muppet? (in NS terms that is, not the weird TV dolls <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->)
am I the one that has to deal with 5 marines sitting under the hive spawncapping for 10 minutes, hell no. am I the one thats going to sit there while the com gives innane orders to attack our own res node and "build more chambers", not a chance. The game is over when im not having fun anymore, period. last time i checked, the point of playing games was to have fun. when it stops being enjoyable i F4, if the server doesnt like that, thats a **** server, there are thousands of others.
The whole devour thing makes sense, but theres still no way from stopping the marine being devoured from going "**** devour **** onos **** ****" and reconnecting... or even turning off the power.
I think the point is that no one, despite what they tell you, wants to be <u>trapped</u> in a game they no longer have fun playing.
F4 as a means to end the game quickly is a cheap and unsportsman-like way out of losing. Yes, the F4 team still technically "lost" but it is a shallow and "unfulfilled" victory for the winning team. No one wants to spend 30 minutes building up a map and fighting for victory only to have the opposing team quit the game because they don't want to keep getting killed while waiting for the inevitable.
That said, I can understand an F4 very early in the round. If your team makes a huge error (sensory first, multiple n00b gorges that go off and get killed, TF/turrets all over marine spawn) and any prolonging of the game will just lead to a group of frustrated players, then an F4 can just end it right away before it gets any further and wastes people's time. Wipe the slate clean and just start over. I think there is a 5 minute window for something like that. Any longer and you should play the game until conclusion.
The server I play at most has it disabled. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->