Firewater's Scoreboard Solution--

KEm1KaL1KEm1KaL1 Lerky Lerky Join Date: 2003-02-21 Member: 13797Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Sorry, I HAD to post this...</div> I know you guys locked beta discussion from us aspiring PTs for a reason, but there was just something that I had to add to his post, check here: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=32788' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ST&f=30&t=32788</a> --------- to see his original post and some of the replies.

I believe that not showing scores can change the way recruiting is done, more on a teamplay basis than frag basis. As I had to tell FireWater many times on irc it does not <b>force</b> you to recruit on teamplay, check the upper right corner if you are a frag guy, but it can indirectly change the way people make decisions. Instead of "Wow, that guy took down 6 marines in a row" <--- and still lose the match, We could be seeing "Hey, this guy was 12-11, but was there when we needed him in key areas/times.

As lagger pointed out, you could recruit on skill and train in teamplay, but this could work two ways... if we wanted it to... I'm not saying skill isn't important. It definitely is, but don't flinch at the sound of changes. I respect the team's decisions.

Now I am not <i>officially</i> a veteran, but I am in pugs/scrims alot now and feel that I am fairly skilled and know the game pretty well. Just pointing out that this is not all bad.

Just my opinion, I may not have played 1.1 but I have played all other versions and my opinion can still matter (unless this thread is locked).

Anyways, reply constructively here and flame me in irc if you must, I'm in #naturalselection 24/7. Or look me up in-game.
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Comments

  • kingmobkingmob Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Members, Constellation
    My opinion on scoreboards...

    when i play Deathmatch i do check the scoreboard it is extremely important

    when i played TFC is would check the scoreboard at the end but i usually could point to where i would show up on it....cause i knew that i....
    a) played great
    b) played ok
    c) sucked

    when i played outdoor sports like soccer i played defence so i did not have a score
    in fact a very small amount did
    I still would know when i sucked (and most of the team would too) :-)

    so i do not understand this i HAVE to have a scoreboard thing.

    do you not know when you suck?
    do your teammates not know....I bet they do ;-)

    PS: The game must be looking good if people are complaining about the scoreboard
    it's like playing basketball and the ball is a little flat

    waiting for 1.1 patiently...
  • PegenatorPegenator Join Date: 2002-12-21 Member: 11269Members
    Scores mean nothing.

    Skill is everything.

    I am supreme.

    Submit to it and worship me.
  • FlyFlownFlyFlown Join Date: 2003-04-26 Member: 15847Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Pegenator+May 22 2003, 12:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pegenator @ May 22 2003, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Scores mean nothing.

    Skill is everything.

    <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Nuff said.
  • PegenatorPegenator Join Date: 2002-12-21 Member: 11269Members
    Wow. That is the first time anyone quoted me.

    Feels... Strange...
  • DizzyOneDizzyOne BASS&#33; Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9095Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Pegenator+May 22 2003, 12:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pegenator @ May 22 2003, 12:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow. That is the first time anyone quoted me.

    Feels... Strange... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I bet it does <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Forget the scoreboard and play!
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Pegenator+May 22 2003, 05:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pegenator @ May 22 2003, 05:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow. That is the first time anyone quoted me.

    Feels... Strange... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    for your.. er strangeness <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    The scoreboard is to know who's alive, if the opponents are respawning (remove?) and to see what evolutions your teammates have.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    I think that showing only the kills and not the deaths for aliens would increase their aggessivity.
  • tjosantjosan Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Members, Constellation
    When/if we have to add someone to our clan (Nombliz) we would check for two things.
    1. Can the guy frag? If he meets our standards on the fps level we'd check if we can get along with him decently at least.

    Teamwork is something that is easy to "practice", and something most people to anyway. In NS, and most other fps-games you only need one or two players who can "see the game", plan strategies and direct the players and those are usually the ones forming the clan in the first place. The rest of the team is there to kill the enemy on command while staying alive. Sorry to burst your bubble, but fragging is the end all of this game, after all your objective is to get rid of all opponents.

    Thus the best solution to the scoreboard problem would be to show frags for both teams, and let the strategists show their skills over voice comm...
  • KEm1KaL1KEm1KaL1 Lerky Lerky Join Date: 2003-02-21 Member: 13797Members
    To add another point, scoreboards aren't needed to see how good somebody is. If you see them killing many times and dying not so much, you will know their skill, if you are letting the scoreboard do your recruiting and not <b>watching</b> them, or fighting alongside them, you obviously aren't doing the full job. Don't let the scoreboard fool you, take a look for yourself!
  • EnemyWithinEnemyWithin Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5572Members
    Personally, I like the scores. Sometimes, in a losing effort by the marines, I will ALT-TAB out to ASE (while waiting to respawn) and refresh the server to checkout the marines scores. This usually shows me what I suspected for most of the game...no one else on my team knows how to shoot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I don't do this to gloat, but to confirm my view of my team. And, yes, I know that frags aren't everything, but when your entire team is at the bottom of the list...it isn't a good thing!

    When playing alien, I like to monitor the scoreboard, but it certainly doesn't stop me from using xenocide when we get 3 hives. I also like to go gorge after the 2nd hive is up (when everyone else is going fade and racking up the kills) and run around securing resource nodes and blocking off choke points. Just because some people enjoy the scores, it doesn't mean that they are only playing for the "frags".

    Some people keep pointing out that this is a team game and the only thing that matters is who wins the game, not how many frags everyone has. While this is true, I think you need to remember that these "teams" are made up of individual people.

    People like to see their skill acknowledged. Airforce pilots mark off their kills on the sides of their planes. Some college football teams put stickers on their helmets to acknowledge big plays. Rewarding individual skill isn't necessarily harmful to the team. In fps games, the frag count just seems to be the accepted reward.

    Why not just make it into a server-side variable?

    sv_scoreboard = "0" no scores, "1" alien only, "2" marine only, "3" both

    Choice is always a good thing.
  • KEm1KaL1KEm1KaL1 Lerky Lerky Join Date: 2003-02-21 Member: 13797Members
    Skill is a very useful thing... as long as it benefits the team as a whole. As I said, if somebody is lonewolfing and racking up kills while the team is dying somewhere else, that doesn't contribute to the team whatsoever. But if the kills are being scored in a crucial battle, then yes it does help... ALOT.

    I never said that skill wasn't important but I was pointing out that raw kills are not everything.
  • laggerlagger Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1805Members
    edited May 2003
    Regarding the first post, I agree with you that clans can recruit both ways. But it has been my expierence that its much harder for someone to better themselves at shooting then it is at teamplay. Its taken some people years to get to a level of fps mastery then it has for them to master the mechanics of a game and learn to work together with their peers.

    Also, in regards to recruiting for clans. We dont just watch their score on the scoreboard, if we do choose to start recruiting someone we invite them to join in 1-3 scrims with our clan. We ask them to record demo's which we later watch and decide if he should join. It also allows our comm to see how he interacts with the team and if he is repairable or already has good team skills to join. If he just runs off in the scrim you can bet your bottom dollar he wont make it in the clan.

    Also note, flayra didnt pick us to be in the veteran group because we are more skilled then every pubber out there. He picked us because we are in clans that already have developed a level of teamwork that can be brought to v1.1 that pubbers cannot bring until they play together for awhile. This allows for creative strategys to be tested in v1.1 and as a result *hopefully* we dont end up with another jp/hmg rush.
  • KEm1KaL1KEm1KaL1 Lerky Lerky Join Date: 2003-02-21 Member: 13797Members
    Yeah, that is true lagger. You can be good at FPS, but NS also has components that work with teamplay, and if you are a shooter veteran, you will have to learn the new aspects, other than the shooting part.
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    1st requirement for ANY clan should be...

    "Is the guy a tosser?" (The UK people can snigger now, the rest of you can look blank)

    If he's not, coolio. 52% of the recruitment process over. If you don't have a clan that <b>all get along</b>, you clan <i>will</i> fail. Understand this now. If you recruit joe_spammz0r because he's teh win, it won't work out.

    The other 29% + 19% are teamplay & skill, respectively (or the other way around, depends how your clan plays) and between them should guarantee whether someone should be in, but the the first point gets the casting vote, always.
  • Ryse_SladeRyse_Slade Germany Join Date: 2002-12-22 Member: 11349Members, Constellation
    No score board.

    Why? Example: Players kills 3 skulks in a row and claims to be the best player all over the world because he leads the table with 30:0. Meanwhile the aliens eat the marine spawn and laugh at the stupid player who sits alone in a corner and camps for some skulks (maybe he will kill one or two skulks but the game is over because he did not care about the team but only about himself).

    <b>Team games</b> do not need score boards. I play a TFC clanwar and do not even check the score board until the game is over and I want to see how many caps both teams had.

    Apart from this the scores do not tell anything about the player. Oh, well, they do. It is very likely that a player with 30:0 claiming to be the Uber-player is a DM player who is not able to play in a team otherwise he would not claim to be that good because he knows when three marines shoot at one skulk only one can kill him. Means two of three players will not get Uber-stats but they did their job and without them the godlike super player won't even have 10 kills.

    Another example for those who know TFC (well, don't think those who complain about removing the score board play a team game like TFC... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->). Map shutdown2 plank defense soldier. Most times I have around 30 kills whilst the ramp soldier has 90 kills. Does this mean I am a bad soldier? *lol* No! I can count those enemies that are able to touch my plank with my fingers and I damage nearly every enemy that comes to the ramp. Every good team with decent skill will always win against a bad team full of ego DM players.
  • laggerlagger Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1805Members
    edited May 2003
    For someone to kill 30 kharra camping in a corner and then the marines lose there base sounds kind of odd. How did the kharra resolve enough force to take the base if they have sent 30 kharra at one person? If he was sitting there the entire game... then how did he even get 30 kills? I mean, wouldnt the aliens realize that they could just leave him there and just gain from it? No player that camps in a corner is going to get 30 kills, he will have to run across the map killing skulks and hunting gorgs which WILL help the team with distraction/killing valuable kharra buildings and letting the rest of the team build/take control of the map without as much resistence.

    Yes, i agree that team play is required to win a game and that total ramboing across the entire team will not win the game. But teamplay is shown when the comm's strategy is realized and fps skill is shown through the scoreboard. Why take away the ability to see someones fps skill? If this random dm player would camp the entire game in a corner to rack up 30 kills how would taking away the scoreboard change his actions? It seems that taking away the scoreboard will only result in the loss of comparing ones fps skill to others.
  • EnemyWithinEnemyWithin Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5572Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--HA|Striker+May 22 2003, 08:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HA|Striker @ May 22 2003, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No score board.

    Why? Example: Players kills 3 skulks in a row and claims to be the best player all over the world because he leads the table with 30:0. Meanwhile the aliens eat the marine spawn and laugh at the stupid player who sits alone in a corner and camps for some skulks (maybe he will kill one or two skulks but the game is over because he did not care about the team but only about himself). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    An idiot is an idiot. Removing the scores isn't going to change that fact.

    Although I am sure that some people do go around bragging about their frag count, I can't say that I remember the last time I encountered such a person. If this is the main reason they are removing the scoreboard, then it seem they are attempting to curtail the actions of a very small minority of idiots out there.
  • Relic25Relic25 Pixel Punk Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 39Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I'm trying to imagine how differently CS would play right now if individual scores had never been a part of the game. I picture it actually being fun. I picture teamplay and the objectives actually having meaning. It's a wonderful thing.

    This message brought to you by the 41.5% (so far) of mighty voices.
  • laggerlagger Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1805Members
    I dislike cs :/. Even without a scoreboard i would dislike cs lol.
  • Brave_UlyssesBrave_Ulysses Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15922Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+May 22 2003, 03:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ May 22 2003, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1st requirement for ANY clan should be...

    "Is the guy a tosser?" (The UK people can snigger now, the rest of you can look blank)

    If he's not, coolio. 52% of the recruitment process over. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I dunno - with most clans I've encountered it seems that their recruitment process went: "Is this guy a total tosspot? He is? OK - recruit him and we can get to calling ourselves thirteen thirty-seven h4x0rz and calling anyone we don't like 'n00bs'". Just my experience, ya dig.
  • MacguyvokMacguyvok Godlike Fuzzydice Join Date: 2003-05-09 Member: 16162Members
    Clans.. I've had a bunch of poor experiance with them.. but it seems to me:

    Recruiter: So... You wanna join?
    Mac: Yeah! this caln is the shiznit!
    Recruiter: Hrm.. you any good?
    Mac: I'm ok... I can shoot ya know?
    Recruiter:OK.. let's hop on a server.....

    <5 minutes latter>

    Recruiter:"Eh... you're ok.. we'll train you up.... you're in."
    Mac: w00t!!! Joor are "elite"!!!
  • kwitcherbitchinkwitcherbitchin Join Date: 2002-12-19 Member: 11144Members
    edited May 2003
    would it be possible to just show scores at the end of the round? one cool idea might be to have the previous round's scores posted on a ready room wall.

    *edit* kinda reminds me of laser tag */edit*

    <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Skillzilla1Skillzilla1 Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16282Members
    edited May 2003
    I voted for no showing scores, but now that I think about it I change my mind...

    I am an active clanner, and to me (no offence to you all!) but pubs are worthless to me. I go into pubs to kill, and only to kill. I honestly don't care about winning, I just want to improve my skills. Showing kills would help to know if you are improving/getting worse/sucky day ect ect.

    It would give Public games a purpose.
  • kwitcherbitchinkwitcherbitchin Join Date: 2002-12-19 Member: 11144Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Skillzilla_+May 22 2003, 05:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skillzilla_ @ May 22 2003, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am an active clanner, and to me (no offence to you all!) but pubs are worthless to me. I go into pubs to kill, and only to kill. I honestly don't care about winning, I just want to improve my skills. Showing kills would help to know if you are improving/getting worse/sucky day ect ect.

    It would give Public games a purpose. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    /me hands skillzilla a flame shield.
  • Skillzilla1Skillzilla1 Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16282Members
    Yes I know... I figured it was comin when I posted it... I'm ready!

    I know there are so cool pubbers out there though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • XentorXentor Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5877Members
    edited May 2003
    Ok, my two cents on the scoreboard...

    (I had a really long post written, but then decided to just keep it short and simple)

    Once first-person spectating is put in, recruiters will have no problem determining the skill of potential recruits... That, plus paying attention to the kills, should be enough information...

    A commander will, after a bit, get an idea of which teammates are dependable... Since the names will always be displayed (Right?) in 1.1, the comm will know which marines are following orders without having to take a close look at each.

    As of 1.1, the aliens will get messages when their gorges plop down chambers, so they'll know what the all-important builders are doing... Same goes for marines and their commander...

    With these new features, I don't think the frag/death counts will really be necessary anymore, nor will a more detailed scoring system...

    Oh, and you know, Shockwave, 42.3% of statistics are made up on the spot...
  • MerciorMercior Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4019Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Does nobody realise that you can see everyones scores by typing "status" in the console?
  • Skillzilla1Skillzilla1 Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16282Members
    Well you can only see a certain amount of them (figuring it's a decent size game). Or is there a way to show only first 5 people's status? Maybe scroll up in the console?
  • MerciorMercior Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4019Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Press pgup and pgdn to scroll up and down in the console.... plus you can see a lot more than 5 lines when the console is down!
  • Skillzilla1Skillzilla1 Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16282Members
    I know about the console being down... nub <3 BUT I didn't know about Page Up and Page Down. (Only been playing Half-Life for a little while....) <3
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