<!--QuoteBegin--Relic25+May 22 2003, 04:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Relic25 @ May 22 2003, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm trying to imagine how differently CS would play right now if individual scores had never been a part of the game. I picture it actually being fun. I picture teamplay and the objectives actually having meaning. It's a wonderful thing.
This message brought to you by the 41.5% (so far) of mighty voices. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Best idea ever. Remove the scorebord from CS aswell as NS.
Heh... well... I think that this is one thing that should be server side changeable..... for the very reason that there are flame warz brewing about it.. I mean.. c'mon.. it's just a bunch of friggin #'s!!!! Lolz... I mean.... is it really that important? Personally I'm more worried about if my GL can counter the 1 hive onos.. than if he can tell hom many times he's killed me...... in a row......
Ok well.... here's the answer to everything (well, the answer I've seen from a lot of different people, on a lot of different issues) MAKE IT A SERVER VARIABLE!! YEEHAW!! </sarcasm>
I use /status all the time. It's only for me. I would like to see if I am improving or losing (or to see if I'm basically carrying the team >_<).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i think a full detailed score sheet at the end of the game sounds like a good idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea. This way, at the end, you can get a full report performance while still not interfering with the process of the game. I don't know if doing that would be easy to code, I would rather have 1.1 out sooner. Anyway, the current build has no scores for marines, but most people can still pick out who is really doing all the killing.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cereal_KillR+May 22 2003, 12:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ May 22 2003, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Pegenator+May 22 2003, 05:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pegenator @ May 22 2003, 05:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow. That is the first time anyone quoted me.
Feels... Strange... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> for your.. er strangeness <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The scoreboard is to know who's alive, if the opponents are respawning (remove?) and to see what evolutions your teammates have. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny I thought the scoreboard was to keep score. Silly me.
How do you look at your stats in the console? I know to type status in the console, and it brings up a bunch of numbers for each player, but there seems to be no correlation between any of these numbers and the numbers in the scoreboard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm trying to imagine how differently CS would play right now if individual scores had never been a part of the game. I picture it actually being fun. I picture teamplay and the objectives actually having meaning. It's a wonderful thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a common misconception. Because an enemy in CS does not respawn, killing him is the best way to prevent him from completing an objective. It's the same with games that are basically about territorial control, like DoD or NS. A dead enemy will not control territory. Yet many players have difficulties accepting that and make up zillions of other criteria which they believe to be more important than lowly "deathmatchy" skills.
My personal belief is that fragging will always be the most important thing in all FPS games, no matter how many secondary objectives will be constructed around it. It's inherent in the game mechanics of a shooter. Instead of being afraid of all scores and hiding them all, it should rather be considered to include a few NS-specific factors in them. For example, killing a hive or a spawn gate could be worth 5 frags.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This message brought to you by the 41.5% (so far) of mighty voices.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 40% want to see no scores at all. 60% want to see alien scores.
I'ts the battle of the titans. <b>The Collective vs. The Federation!</b> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"No Scores" are <b>The Collective</b> - team wins as one and loses as one. No player is more valuable than other and only thing that matters is the overall goal - winning the match. Collective believes strength comes from complete dedication to the benefit of the team. Personal glory is considered irrelevant in the face of the common good.
"Visible Scores" are <b>The Federation</b>. Each individual is working for a one common goal but each individual also has a different value to the team. Individual skill is rewarded and the Federation believes strength comes through competition. Each individual tries their best and competes with each other while constantly working towards the common goal.
I'm personally something in between, but a bit more of a federalist. I believe aliens should keep their scores with deaths removed. Scores are a personal reward and an incentive to try your best in a fight. I enjoy (or enjoyed when I played, now I've been on hold for some months waiting for 1.1) team work and don't hunt for frags. It is more enjoyable for me to take down a minibase knowing I'm hurting their team really bad than killing a couple of lone marines. However, not for a second I'm going to claim that scores mean nothing to me. I would be kidding myself if I didn't admit that seeing a concrete evidence of my fighting ability does give me pleasure. A good round gives a good feeling. The same round without the concrete feedback in form of kills feels good as I know that I did well. However, there's something missing. I'm not a very competitive guy, but I do enjoy being in the top quarter of the list. It's a reward from the game of a job well done. I would know that I probably did well without the list, but the visual reward of it wouldn't be there.
Now, the common argument is that kills don't equal skill and people saying it are right, they don't. However, kills make up a big portion of skill. Being in the right place at the right time, knowing what to do, but failing at it always because you are unable to kill your enemy - is that skill? No, it's potential. Potential that will become skill as soon as you can effectively fight your enemy.
Do visible kills deduct from the enjoyment of those who would prefer kills to be hidden or from the gameplay? That's the main question. If they do, is it comparable to how much hidden kills deduct from the enjoyment of those who like them.
But, after all this ranting, devteam does as it believes is the best. I don't have a true problem with scores taken out, but I would sure prefer them to stay in. However, as I'm in quite a debt to Flay for him making this awesome game, I don't really feel it's my right to complain about something as trivial as this. Keep the good work up. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
In a public 1.04 game, where you don't know any of the players, it can be extremely difficult to keep track off who is able to stay alive and who isn't. Therefore it would be nice to see who gets killed every 15-30 secs, and who doesnt. Also helps experienced players make a point to less experienced players since their frag-score will serve as authority...
Scoreboards will also make it easier to find out if he wants to do a highrisk build with the present marines, or he wants to wait for more "skilled" backup before dropping the buildings... sucks to lose a lot of res because the 3 marines sent to siege a hive gets eaten by the first skulk wandering by. They might be teamplayers, but no aim, no game. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
It is the <b>score</b> board. Taking everything into consideration is nearly impossible but destroying buildings should add to the score. As someone mentioned sometimes an alien destroys an outpost (tf, 4 turrets, pg). This should add like 3 kills for tf, 1 each turret and 2 for pg.
Well another suggestion. Two players attacking the same alien should <b>both</b> get 1 kill added because both players damaged the alien.
So the score board would really show something important "Who did the most damage to the enemy" but not "who had the most luck in getting the most kills" (3 marines shooting one alien - so who was teh Uber-marine... who knows).
On alien: Kills mean everything. Your life as a skulk means nothing. Deaths mean nothing. I see some people go like 30-3 as skulk because they kill one person, run back to the hive, kill another, and repeat that the whole game. THAT needs to be taken out. Maybe alien kills could stay in and deaths could be erased? Because to me, someone that is 24-18 is better than someone that is 8-1.
If everyone could realize that your life as a skulk is meaningless, and your whole point is to attack a pack of marines, chomp one or two, and then die, Natural-Selection would be so much better. If your score is more important than taking bullets for the gorge or the hive, then the scoreboard should be taken out.
All this coming from a guy who would rather die than run back to the hive and heal.
<!--QuoteBegin--HA|Striker+May 23 2003, 02:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HA|Striker @ May 23 2003, 02:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just a suggestion.
It is the <b>score</b> board. Taking everything into consideration is nearly impossible but destroying buildings should add to the score. As someone mentioned sometimes an alien destroys an outpost (tf, 4 turrets, pg). This should add like 3 kills for tf, 1 each turret and 2 for pg. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Therein lies another problem. What about the skulk who took down 99% of the pg's health, then got killed. The one who was biting the turret instead of anything useful finally puts a bite in on the pg (after being screamed at by the now dead other skulk) and gets all the "glory"
The amount of damage tracking to do to make a system like this work is just unfeasible.
2 points remaining:
1) Putting scores back in is a MINOR task - IF it turns out <b>WHEN EVERYONE IS ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME</b> that it's not working with no scores, then putting them back in is a doddle and ALWAYS an option.
2) Until such time as <b>EVERYONE IS ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME</b> I suggest we let this argument lie. There will be no solution, there will always be people saying they want scores/don't want scores. At some point you have to let go of the thread and let it lie. At least until you've had a chance to play the game (and I mean EVERYONE not just pt/vets/devs).
In conclusion:
STOP getting so heated about it, realise it's a MINOR change and is EASILY reversed later STOP putting the same arguments over and over again. This applies to both sets of people (the pros and cons) STOP complicating and extending the playtest time of the game. I want to play it SOON, I don't want its development time extended because of some argument that in reality, isn't all that big a deal (given the ease of inclusion or exclusion of the scoreboard at any later stage <i>in retrospect</i>) START breathing, relaxing, thinking about dinner and get on with either playtesting or playing 1.04 until it comes out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) Putting scores back in is a MINOR task - IF it turns out WHEN EVERYONE IS ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME that it's not working with no scores, then putting them back in is a doddle and ALWAYS an option.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really have to lay of the routine of "if you havent tried it, dont bash it", because in this instance it really doesnt fit. We have played a game since october where one team has had a working score board and the other has not. That should qualify us all to discuss the subject.
be that as it may, the topic is like marine blood and gore. It's been discussed OVER and OVER and OVER again and there is NO SETTLEMENT on it. There's no point continuing to earbash the developers over this topic, when no-one is bringing up any new points. It's the same arguments over and over.
In view of that, I repeat - LET IT LIE and take a big breath.
You say CS scoreboard was re-included? That's proof of principle that it's easy to re-include, and that game developers are willing to change their ideas about a subject.
HOWEVER, beating them over the head like everyone is here is pointless, and compounded with the fact that you haven't played WITHOUT scores yet is quite honestly infantile.
LET IT LIE! (It's a topic we will come back to later, unlike marineblood however)
I have yet to meet the person that would resent a score system that's more in tune with the framework of NS. Maybe it's best to stop discussing whether frags should be shown, because apparently, that descision has been made, and start concepting an alternating system rewarding all NS-relevant actions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->HOWEVER, beating them over the head like everyone is here is pointless, and compounded with the fact that you haven't played WITHOUT scores yet is quite honestly infantile.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously Roobubba, you start your post by agreeing with me that we can discuss this as we've played without scores already. Well <b>stop using that arguement then for Chists sake</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+May 23 2003, 10:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ May 23 2003, 10:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have yet to meet the person that would resent a score system that's more in tune with the framework of NS. Maybe it's best to stop discussing whether frags should be shown, because apparently, that descision has been made, and start concepting an alternating system rewarding all NS-relevant actions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As long as it is not as complicated as Sven Coop used to be...
I spent hours trying to find out how their old board worked............. to no avail I might add.
On that note, I would like to point out that kills are still relevant, but they are not the only way to win the game. I know everybody I have discussed this about has vouched for showing structure kills as well. One thing though, I am not exactly partial to adding building construction to scoreboard, for the simple fact that many would sit in base and build constantly.
I like the idea though and would love to help out seeing how this is made. Not many mods have really made big <i>changes</i> to the scoreboard in the past.
One idea for this system could be basing the building kill system on res.
For Kharaa assaulting TSAructures:
Killing something cheap (say, below 30 is one point (we don't want to go overboard with this). and something over that amount would be 2.
For TSA assaulting Kharaa structures:
Movement/Defense/Sensory/Offense kills = one point.
Res nodes/hives = two points.
I choose this because I feel it as a happy medium. Not too much reward not too little. I just sometimes get annoyed when people who massacre structures, (while their buddies hold off the players and get many points) seem to not be rewarded.
I also propose a reward system for commanders/gorges.
Gorge: Every hive gives two points. one point or so for every two nodes built.
Commander: (this is slightly more complicated) Hive destroyed = 3-5 points (?) (comment on this) Note: I am still working on this one.
Anyways, voice all your opinions on my idea and how this should be done.
*edit* Calling all devs, I want your opinions! *end edit*
The best solution would probably be to separate kills and awards for building things and destroying structures. Seeing ones kill:death ratio is important if you're trying to improve your fps skills. You'd still be able to compare and add these scores if you want to see who's "the most valuable payer" on the team, so to speak.
There are clearly going to be some kind of issues with rewarding destruction of structures with points on the scoreboard, and without such revision, the scoreboard is ultimately not representative of a person's worth as part of the team (for example, if two equally skilled players are around a RT, one is building with the other guarding, and the guard kills 2 skulks, does that make him a better player?).
As I believe that showing only frags/deaths on an in-game scoreboard is ultimately worthless and only aid score-****, it seems obvious to me that the best solution to this problem is to make an end-game 'stats page', with overall team and individual stats. Hence, these could include kills/deaths, as well as tons of other factors (I would like to see total damage dealt to enemy structures, damage dealt to enemies, res used in evolutions/equipment/buildings, and total time spent building). The stats could also be represented as a percentage of the team's total.
You still keep the kill/death ratio in there, but without it being viewable during play, there is a smaller incentive to go ramboing for kills. The other statistics will provide an interesting look at other factors which are undeniably as important as kills.
Just my solution to this problem, but I can't see any real flaws with it. Comments?
Like the idea, but it could be stopped by map change and people would probably not be able to agree on how long it stays up.
I personally like my idea, but to add something to yours, it might work if the page came up seperately from connection of the server, so people could reconnect when they are finished viewing. The downside to this plan is the complication, severing connection and adding a whole new system for endgame scores.
The page idea is being worked on by many.
I think that my idea could be simpler to do and easier for people to use. If I wanted to see scores, I would <b>definitely</b> want to see them ingame, not just endgame.
No scores for either team sounds just fine to me. People are now defending scores and bunnyhopping to death because they are used to them. One month after 1.1 and if someone would suggest bunnyhop or scores to be taken back, everyone would be bashing him because they are used to the new system and see how well it works.
People are afraid of changes <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wanted to see scores, I would definitely want to see them ingame, not just endgame<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole point of my suggestion was that scores be moved to after the game, so that people won't waste time trying to see who is the most uber player on their team, and trying to beat them/stay the 'best', i.e. you remove the teamplay-damaging aspect of personal scores while keeping the ability to judge performance of specific players in a given game.
As for the problem of actually showing such a stats screen, I am fairly sure it is not difficult to do, as a similar (although less complex) system is in place in the mod Science and Industry at the end of each map.
<!--QuoteBegin--RabidWeasel+May 23 2003, 03:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RabidWeasel @ May 23 2003, 03:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so that people won't waste time trying to see who is the most uber player on their team, and trying to beat them/stay the 'best', i.e. you remove the teamplay-damaging aspect of personal scores while keeping the ability to judge performance of specific players in a given game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And what, please tell, is wrong with being competitive and trying to perform to the best of your ability? What a lot of people don't seem to recognize is that while this is more of a team-based game than most, pure fps skill is still the most important thing. As long as a single person can own up the entire other team, fps skill will remain important.
By contrasting this with real combat, we can see how this works. In a real war, if you rambo, you die, its as simple as that. It is absolutely necessary, no matter how good of a soldier you are, to stay with your squad/company/whatever, because you are just meat otherwise. Trying to remove the effect of competition, within a team or otherwise, will not work, simply because of the nature of games like this.
In my experience, personal scores, in any game, do not serve to diminish teamplay, but rather as a sort of whetstone for a player's performance. If I see that I am in absolutely last place in my team, I am going to quit scuzzing around and get down to business. The removal of the scores will simply reduce the talent pool and level.
Performing to the best of your ability =! getting the best kill/death ratio.
In the example I gave:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->two equally skilled players are around a RT, one is building with the other guarding, and the guard kills 2 skulks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
is the guard a better player? By your definition, apparently yes, as more kills == more skill. I realise that it could be argued that on average one player from a group will be guarding and building as often as another, and so the kills/deaths should become balanced out, but equating performance to kills is a stretch at best.
The point I am trying to make is that killing for killing's sake is not useful to the team at a whole, and such an activity is only encouraged by a 'reward' in the form of being at the top of the kills table. In lieu of a score system that can accurately represent a player's worth to the team (impossible given the nature of the game), no scoretable in-game is the only solution. I give an end-game score table as an effective comprimise as it still allows players to monitor their own performance, or the performance of others, in terms of kills/deaths, without encouraging 'OMG I SI TEH PWNZ0R' behaviour.
Of course ramboers will eventually die. It is a flawed tactic. Also what most people look at is K:D ratio, which is a problem sometimes. People are too damned afraid to rush in and kill people, so they stay 7:1 (not even that amazing) the whole game. And please: do not flame me for what I just said because I <b>do</b> see it happening. Although it is not a wide issue.
Anyways let's get back to the ideas that were previously posted by Rabid and I. Post your own if you have one, just try to focus on what we are doing here.
Comments
IF you want to see your score you should be able to...
Putting it in suffices both. End of discussion.
This message brought to you by the 41.5% (so far) of mighty voices. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best idea ever. Remove the scorebord from CS aswell as NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i think a full detailed score sheet at the end of the game sounds like a good idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea. This way, at the end, you can get a full report performance while still not interfering with the process of the game. I don't know if doing that would be easy to code, I would rather have 1.1 out sooner. Anyway, the current build has no scores for marines, but most people can still pick out who is really doing all the killing.
Feels... Strange... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
for your.. er strangeness <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The scoreboard is to know who's alive, if the opponents are respawning (remove?) and to see what evolutions your teammates have. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny I thought the scoreboard was to keep score. Silly me.
That's a common misconception. Because an enemy in CS does not respawn, killing him is the best way to prevent him from completing an objective. It's the same with games that are basically about territorial control, like DoD or NS. A dead enemy will not control territory. Yet many players have difficulties accepting that and make up zillions of other criteria which they believe to be more important than lowly "deathmatchy" skills.
My personal belief is that fragging will always be the most important thing in all FPS games, no matter how many secondary objectives will be constructed around it. It's inherent in the game mechanics of a shooter. Instead of being afraid of all scores and hiding them all, it should rather be considered to include a few NS-specific factors in them. For example, killing a hive or a spawn gate could be worth 5 frags.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This message brought to you by the 41.5% (so far) of mighty voices.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
40% want to see no scores at all. 60% want to see alien scores.
"No Scores" are <b>The Collective</b> - team wins as one and loses as one. No player is more valuable than other and only thing that matters is the overall goal - winning the match. Collective believes strength comes from complete dedication to the benefit of the team. Personal glory is considered irrelevant in the face of the common good.
"Visible Scores" are <b>The Federation</b>. Each individual is working for a one common goal but each individual also has a different value to the team. Individual skill is rewarded and the Federation believes strength comes through competition. Each individual tries their best and competes with each other while constantly working towards the common goal.
I'm personally something in between, but a bit more of a federalist. I believe aliens should keep their scores with deaths removed. Scores are a personal reward and an incentive to try your best in a fight. I enjoy (or enjoyed when I played, now I've been on hold for some months waiting for 1.1) team work and don't hunt for frags. It is more enjoyable for me to take down a minibase knowing I'm hurting their team really bad than killing a couple of lone marines. However, not for a second I'm going to claim that scores mean nothing to me. I would be kidding myself if I didn't admit that seeing a concrete evidence of my fighting ability does give me pleasure. A good round gives a good feeling. The same round without the concrete feedback in form of kills feels good as I know that I did well. However, there's something missing. I'm not a very competitive guy, but I do enjoy being in the top quarter of the list. It's a reward from the game of a job well done. I would know that I probably did well without the list, but the visual reward of it wouldn't be there.
Now, the common argument is that kills don't equal skill and people saying it are right, they don't. However, kills make up a big portion of skill. Being in the right place at the right time, knowing what to do, but failing at it always because you are unable to kill your enemy - is that skill? No, it's potential. Potential that will become skill as soon as you can effectively fight your enemy.
Do visible kills deduct from the enjoyment of those who would prefer kills to be hidden or from the gameplay? That's the main question. If they do, is it comparable to how much hidden kills deduct from the enjoyment of those who like them.
But, after all this ranting, devteam does as it believes is the best. I don't have a true problem with scores taken out, but I would sure prefer them to stay in. However, as I'm in quite a debt to Flay for him making this awesome game, I don't really feel it's my right to complain about something as trivial as this. Keep the good work up. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Aiding the commander,
In a public 1.04 game, where you don't know any of the players, it can be extremely difficult to keep track off who is able to stay alive and who isn't. Therefore it would be nice to see who gets killed every 15-30 secs, and who doesnt. Also helps experienced players make a point to less experienced players since their frag-score will serve as authority...
Scoreboards will also make it easier to find out if he wants to do a highrisk build with the present marines, or he wants to wait for more "skilled" backup before dropping the buildings... sucks to lose a lot of res because the 3 marines sent to siege a hive gets eaten by the first skulk wandering by. They might be teamplayers, but no aim, no game. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
It is the <b>score</b> board. Taking everything into consideration is nearly impossible but destroying buildings should add to the score. As someone mentioned sometimes an alien destroys an outpost (tf, 4 turrets, pg). This should add like 3 kills for tf, 1 each turret and 2 for pg.
Well another suggestion. Two players attacking the same alien should <b>both</b> get 1 kill added because both players damaged the alien.
So the score board would really show something important "Who did the most damage to the enemy" but not "who had the most luck in getting the most kills" (3 marines shooting one alien - so who was teh Uber-marine... who knows).
If everyone could realize that your life as a skulk is meaningless, and your whole point is to attack a pack of marines, chomp one or two, and then die, Natural-Selection would be so much better. If your score is more important than taking bullets for the gorge or the hive, then the scoreboard should be taken out.
All this coming from a guy who would rather die than run back to the hive and heal.
It is the <b>score</b> board. Taking everything into consideration is nearly impossible but destroying buildings should add to the score. As someone mentioned sometimes an alien destroys an outpost (tf, 4 turrets, pg). This should add like 3 kills for tf, 1 each turret and 2 for pg.
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Therein lies another problem. What about the skulk who took down 99% of the pg's health, then got killed. The one who was biting the turret instead of anything useful finally puts a bite in on the pg (after being screamed at by the now dead other skulk) and gets all the "glory"
The amount of damage tracking to do to make a system like this work is just unfeasible.
2 points remaining:
1) Putting scores back in is a MINOR task - IF it turns out <b>WHEN EVERYONE IS ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME</b> that it's not working with no scores, then putting them back in is a doddle and ALWAYS an option.
2) Until such time as <b>EVERYONE IS ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME</b> I suggest we let this argument lie. There will be no solution, there will always be people saying they want scores/don't want scores. At some point you have to let go of the thread and let it lie. At least until you've had a chance to play the game (and I mean EVERYONE not just pt/vets/devs).
In conclusion:
STOP getting so heated about it, realise it's a MINOR change and is EASILY reversed later
STOP putting the same arguments over and over again. This applies to both sets of people (the pros and cons)
STOP complicating and extending the playtest time of the game. I want to play it SOON, I don't want its development time extended because of some argument that in reality, isn't all that big a deal (given the ease of inclusion or exclusion of the scoreboard at any later stage <i>in retrospect</i>)
START breathing, relaxing, thinking about dinner and get on with either playtesting or playing 1.04 until it comes out.
Thank you
Roo
You really have to lay of the routine of "if you havent tried it, dont bash it", because in this instance it really doesnt fit. We have played a game since october where one team has had a working score board and the other has not. That should qualify us all to discuss the subject.
In view of that, I repeat - LET IT LIE and take a big breath.
You say CS scoreboard was re-included? That's proof of principle that it's easy to re-include, and that game developers are willing to change their ideas about a subject.
HOWEVER, beating them over the head like everyone is here is pointless, and compounded with the fact that you haven't played WITHOUT scores yet is quite honestly infantile.
LET IT LIE! (It's a topic we will come back to later, unlike marineblood however)
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Seriously Roobubba, you start your post by agreeing with me that we can discuss this as we've played without scores already. Well <b>stop using that arguement then for Chists sake</b>
As long as it is not as complicated as Sven Coop used to be...
I spent hours trying to find out how their old board worked............. to no avail I might add.
On that note, I would like to point out that kills are still relevant, but they are not the only way to win the game. I know everybody I have discussed this about has vouched for showing structure kills as well. One thing though, I am not exactly partial to adding building construction to scoreboard, for the simple fact that many would sit in base and build constantly.
I like the idea though and would love to help out seeing how this is made. Not many mods have really made big <i>changes</i> to the scoreboard in the past.
One idea for this system could be basing the building kill system on res.
For Kharaa assaulting TSAructures:
Killing something cheap (say, below 30 is one point (we don't want to go overboard with this). and something over that amount would be 2.
For TSA assaulting Kharaa structures:
Movement/Defense/Sensory/Offense kills = one point.
Res nodes/hives = two points.
I choose this because I feel it as a happy medium. Not too much reward not too little. I just sometimes get annoyed when people who massacre structures, (while their buddies hold off the players and get many points) seem to not be rewarded.
I also propose a reward system for commanders/gorges.
Gorge: Every hive gives two points. one point or so for every two nodes built.
Commander: (this is slightly more complicated) Hive destroyed = 3-5 points (?) (comment on this) Note: I am still working on this one.
Anyways, voice all your opinions on my idea and how this should be done.
*edit* Calling all devs, I want your opinions! *end edit*
As I believe that showing only frags/deaths on an in-game scoreboard is ultimately worthless and only aid score-****, it seems obvious to me that the best solution to this problem is to make an end-game 'stats page', with overall team and individual stats. Hence, these could include kills/deaths, as well as tons of other factors (I would like to see total damage dealt to enemy structures, damage dealt to enemies, res used in evolutions/equipment/buildings, and total time spent building). The stats could also be represented as a percentage of the team's total.
You still keep the kill/death ratio in there, but without it being viewable during play, there is a smaller incentive to go ramboing for kills. The other statistics will provide an interesting look at other factors which are undeniably as important as kills.
Just my solution to this problem, but I can't see any real flaws with it. Comments?
I personally like my idea, but to add something to yours, it might work if the page came up seperately from connection of the server, so people could reconnect when they are finished viewing. The downside to this plan is the complication, severing connection and adding a whole new system for endgame scores.
The page idea is being worked on by many.
I think that my idea could be simpler to do and easier for people to use. If I wanted to see scores, I would <b>definitely</b> want to see them ingame, not just endgame.
People are afraid of changes <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
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The whole point of my suggestion was that scores be moved to after the game, so that people won't waste time trying to see who is the most uber player on their team, and trying to beat them/stay the 'best', i.e. you remove the teamplay-damaging aspect of personal scores while keeping the ability to judge performance of specific players in a given game.
As for the problem of actually showing such a stats screen, I am fairly sure it is not difficult to do, as a similar (although less complex) system is in place in the mod Science and Industry at the end of each map.
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And what, please tell, is wrong with being competitive and trying to perform to the best of your ability? What a lot of people don't seem to recognize is that while this is more of a team-based game than most, pure fps skill is still the most important thing. As long as a single person can own up the entire other team, fps skill will remain important.
By contrasting this with real combat, we can see how this works. In a real war, if you rambo, you die, its as simple as that. It is absolutely necessary, no matter how good of a soldier you are, to stay with your squad/company/whatever, because you are just meat otherwise. Trying to remove the effect of competition, within a team or otherwise, will not work, simply because of the nature of games like this.
In my experience, personal scores, in any game, do not serve to diminish teamplay, but rather as a sort of whetstone for a player's performance. If I see that I am in absolutely last place in my team, I am going to quit scuzzing around and get down to business. The removal of the scores will simply reduce the talent pool and level.
In the example I gave:
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is the guard a better player? By your definition, apparently yes, as more kills == more skill. I realise that it could be argued that on average one player from a group will be guarding and building as often as another, and so the kills/deaths should become balanced out, but equating performance to kills is a stretch at best.
The point I am trying to make is that killing for killing's sake is not useful to the team at a whole, and such an activity is only encouraged by a 'reward' in the form of being at the top of the kills table. In lieu of a score system that can accurately represent a player's worth to the team (impossible given the nature of the game), no scoretable in-game is the only solution. I give an end-game score table as an effective comprimise as it still allows players to monitor their own performance, or the performance of others, in terms of kills/deaths, without encouraging 'OMG I SI TEH PWNZ0R' behaviour.
Anyways let's get back to the ideas that were previously posted by Rabid and I. Post your own if you have one, just try to focus on what we are doing here.