<!--QuoteBegin--templaR_AGEnt+Apr 14 2003, 11:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (templaR_AGEnt @ Apr 14 2003, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--NecromanZer+Apr 14 2003, 04:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NecromanZer @ Apr 14 2003, 04:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dev's and 90% of people frown upon outdoor maps for the same reason - it doesnt suit or fit the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The main reason why outdoor maps are not included in NaSe is the fact that decent looking out door areas cannot be realzed with the HL engine - at least not in the quality the indoor maps are. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> when they say "outdoor maps" they dont mean huge sprawling maps. they mean maps SET in the outdoor, which could theoretically be smaller than the current stock ns maps. its just the idea of aliens fighting marine on an outdoors planet type world dosnt fit the game.
Not sure I want to set foot in this topic,but here goes:
The #1 most important thing about new models (original or converted) is that they fit the NS environment. That's why I'm hit with a sudden WTH? when I see topics requesting (or releasing) conversions (or original models) of real-world weapons (OICW, Aug, M4, MP5 ... ).
I have no beef with the converters really - some things that have been brought to NS from elsewhere have been pretty nifty, like the Q3 Doom Guy. Nor do I have any kind of a problem with people making models based on movies or other games - we all like a bit o' the old sci-fi, and who has seen <i>Aliens</i> and doesn't want a pulse rifle, if only for a little while? However, seeing page after page of AVP and (sadly) now Starcraft models is a little tiresome. Yes, the colonial marine conversion is a fabulous model (the only AvP model I use, albeit a version I've messed around with myself), and some of the SC models are looking good too, but these attempts at making NS into something else seem silly (futile, even) to me.
I'm guilty of contributing to the SC stuff (also of converting models from other games - the Halo Master Chief StrykerWolf made for Firearms), but that was before I'd decided to learn to model properly. Also, my model is more about me getting to grips with making things from scratch so I can get cracking on making some original models than a conscious contribution to the SC "TC" - I'm only making a SC gun because it's the first thing that caught my attention. People who've been on this forum since NS's release may have noticed I've made a gradual progression from doing reskins to conversions, to hackjobs and now onto making my own models, and I can tell you that what I'm doing now is by far the most satisfying.
I think Delarosa is right - what this forum/community needs is people who can provide good, original ideas for models, or people willing to jump in and try their hand at skinning and modelling - hell, my stickied Modelling 101 thread was intended to encourage people to do just that.
(getting slightly off-topic)
Coil said it's perhaps a little daunting to take on a project for NS, because you need to make a consistent set of models, rather than just one or two. I disagree - although it might sometimes be the case (e.g. coil's chibi models - a commitment and a project I applaud, and the Giger stuff) it's not always true. The NS team has already given us a great concept for the aliens (and marines) - it's up to us to build on it, to create new and interesting variations on the default models. There's no need for custom models to look out of place when used in a pick'n'mix fashion. That's what NS needs, not conversions, not remakes of things from other games or movies, but models that are coherent with the compelling world Flayra (& co) have created.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited April 2003
Very interesting thought, Souris - if I'm understanding you, you mean making new NS aliens that are still Kharaa? Very interesting indeed. (: Reminds me of my hypothetical <a href='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/shiny/alienc.jpg' target='_blank'>Level 6 alien</a> from back in the day. (:
On a similar note, I'd love to see original takes on the Kharaa attacks. The Skulk's "bite" attack isn't a bite - it's a 75-damage melee attack. You could replace the skulk with a little fat guy who swings a baseball bat at marines knees... while it might not be in the spirit of NS, it's a perfectly viable 75-damage melee attack. It's why I suggested a bite for the Hydralisk instead of a swipe, etc. My next model set for NS, after the chibipack, will hopefully take a very different look at the Kharaa.
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Apr 14 2003, 02:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Apr 14 2003, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Very interesting thought, Souris - if I'm understanding you, you mean making new NS aliens that are still Kharaa? Very interesting indeed. (: Reminds me of my hypothetical <a href='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/shiny/alienc.jpg' target='_blank'>Level 6 alien</a> from back in the day. (: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes and no. I just mean models that fit with the look/feel of NS. The way you put it makes me think of every skulk being doglike, for example, and there's really no need for there to be that criterion. I just think that having models that look like they could be kharaa is better than having a motley collection of other things.
(edit: What I mean here is, for example, that although there are some models among the Giger stuff I like, I don't want to use all of them and just using a couple looks rather silly)
In fact, I think the only original and appealing "packs" people have come up with and would look "right" in the NS environment have been the chibipack and the cyborg/robot aliens.
well i do somewhat agree that original models are better than copied ones but as far as the starcraft models go i feel there is nothing wrong with making them. I like the hydra model i use alot. I'm not trying to convert one game to another i just think that the starcraft aliens look cooler .. no offense to the ns team cause they did a really good job. The popint is that people have different ways of customising the game.. so i hardly think we can point the finger at one or two realistic weapon replacements and say BAD. It's their prerogative to convert these guns and if they take the time to do that and release i can see no harm. Really if you have beef with it just dont download them. You can't just make everyone think like you. Everyone is entitled to an opinion so why not let them have it?
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Apr 14 2003, 09:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Apr 14 2003, 09:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On a similar note, I'd love to see original takes on the Kharaa attacks. The Skulk's "bite" attack isn't a bite - it's a 75-damage melee attack. You could replace the skulk with a little fat guy who swings a baseball bat at marines knees... while it might not be in the spirit of NS, it's a perfectly viable 75-damage melee attack. It's why I suggested a bite for the Hydralisk instead of a swipe, etc. My next model set for NS, after the chibipack, will hopefully take a very different look at the Kharaa. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey, may I suggest something?
Instead of trying a complete overhaul with a different look at Kharaa v_*.mdl files, you could try to do somesorta v_*.mdl files for the chibi aliens. Like the bite with the cute skulk. I think it would be really nice if he would swing those spikes at the enemy instead of biting or something.
Or doing something really cute... Like a tongue which the skulk uses to lick <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh well, I certainly did go a little off-topic again.
Huge outdoor maps would never work in a game like this btw... Well the whole point with the hives and bases would well.. not work. Maybe if the game was more hunt 'n kill rather than build a base type.
That little fat guy would be pretty funny, but I can believe what a pain it would be with hitboxes - you could bite the air 3 metres from the fat guy and he would get killed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> . But hey, think about the cute vee models Coil <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
here's a thought, if u dont like the conversions dont even click on the threads... dont download them and dont play with them and then DONT come to the forums and complain. Some ppl including me ENJOY all these cool conversions. if u want some original models just sit back until someone releases something u like OR learn how to model yourself and make something u think is cool...
ok, i ususally do not post my opinions in threads like this, i like to do thing efficiently and constructively, and threads like this, like jamil pointed out, will accomplish nothing. because conversions will never ceases to exist, EVER. threads like this can only start a flame war and produce hostilities and disharmony in teh community. also, i respect other ppl's opinions, which is this thread's all about, therefore i never flamed ppl on any forums before and i never will. ppl have their freedom to voice out there opinions, and unless it is as solid and bullet proof as mathematics and science laws, ( call me a nerd if u want, i'm a computer science major in university and i like to relate things to maths and science ) u can't say their opinions are wrong. there is no definite right or wrong in it, only a personal perspective. but now, since some ppl starting to attack SC total conversion, i , as a die hard SC fan, have to at least defend it.
First of all, what is originality, how do u define originality? ( the tone sounds familiar <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ? ) if u are saying original means that the model has no parts of it that was done by other ppl, ( ie, not a conversion, not a hack job ) , then the SC models we are working on can all be called " pure original ", since all the models, skins , skeletons, animations are started from scratch. (maybe not the zergling, since teh author admitted it's a hack job from default skulk model , but even that has a lot of originality in it since the default skulks model can no where to be seen. ) but even if u define originality in terms of concept and ideas, then SC pack is not original at all, the ideas and concepts are from blizzard entertainment.
please note that even blizzard can't take full credit for their originality, since many of SC stuff ideas are ripped from other movies and games. ( some lines from SC marines and dropship officer are directly copy from James Cameron's Aliens movie ---- eg1 , the female dropship officer is exactly the same woman as the one in Aliens movie, eg 2 " How do i get out of this chicken**** outfit ?" , heck even this line is not James Cameron's original work. He told us in the director's interview for Aliens movie that he drew a lot of inspiration from Vietnam War. Later on when i read a book about Vietnam called "A rumor of war " by Philip Caputo, who was a US marine lieutenant in Vietnam during the early years of war and depicted what he saw in Nam in this book, i found out that this line was acutally said by another marine lieutenant during a mission debriefing in Nam. The line was exactly the same. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Souris, u said in your post that the SC total conversion pack and AVP pack is kind of silly and even futile. I have to disagree with u. Why do think that some of us here play NS? excellent gameplay is of course a reason, thanks to the excellent work from NS team, but another reason is that it reminds us so much of Aliens universe and SC universe. With NS, we can actually be in this universe and shoot aliens <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> So very logically AVP pack and SC pack are inevitable. Personally i think Aliens theme and SC themes are the only 2 themes that completely fit into teh NS gameplay. ( But then again, it's just my opinion. See? it's just a matter of personal perspective ) Where do u think NS team drew inspirations from when they design this mod? every idea in NS gameplay was borrowed from starcraft and aliens movies/game.
Now i see that some of u might already busy starting another thread questioning NS team's originality.
The point is , yes, we WANT to turn NS into AVP, we WANT to turn NS into SC, because that's what some of us like to do. if u are not interested in these 2 themes, that's fine too. we respect that. Like i said, these are just all other ppl's taste and opinions, there is nothing wrong about it. everyone can use / work on the models they like, since these are not for sale and no profit involved, there is no copy right issue. although mention other ppls name as credit when u borrow their concepts/ideas/actual works is a must.
BUT JUST PLEASE DON'T ATTACK IT OR FLAME IT. U HAVE NO RIGHTS TO TAKE AWAY OTHER PPL'S INTEREST IN DOING SOMETHING, SIMPLY BECAUSE THAT U DO NOT SHARE THE SAME INTEREST.
<!--QuoteBegin--Pvt. Hudson+Apr 14 2003, 11:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pvt. Hudson @ Apr 14 2003, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ( some lines from SC marines and dropship officer are directly copy from James Cameron's Aliens movie ---- eg1 , the female dropship officer is exactly the same woman as the one in Aliens movie, eg 2 " How do i get out of this chicken**** outfit ?" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that was put in as a joke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Jim+Apr 14 2003, 04:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim @ Apr 14 2003, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Pvt. Hudson+Apr 14 2003, 11:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pvt. Hudson @ Apr 14 2003, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ( some lines from SC marines and dropship officer are directly copy from James Cameron's Aliens movie ---- eg1 , the female dropship officer is exactly the same woman as the one in Aliens movie, eg 2 " How do i get out of this chicken**** outfit ?" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that was put in as a joke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i don't think so. they use this stuff as game content for sale, for profit.
ironic isn't it, Blizzard has been busy shutting down fan-created "free" mods for various games right from teh start, while their own product which is for sale rips off all the ideas and stuff from other games and movies. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nuff said. Cryptan, Hudson and froggy r right from my pov. Don´t click on conversion threads if ya don´t like them - and everybody is happy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--templaR_AGEnt+Apr 14 2003, 11:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (templaR_AGEnt @ Apr 14 2003, 11:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nuff said. Cryptan, Hudson and froggy r right from my pov. Don´t click on conversion threads if ya don´t like them - and everybody is happy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
The Starcraft sound effects were homages to Aliens, not ripoffs. They were said by different voice-actors, and I imagine that if permission were required (which I don't think it is), they got it.
And frankly, if I were James Cameron, I'd love to have my movie quoted in a Blizzard game. (:
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Apr 14 2003, 11:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Apr 14 2003, 11:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Starcraft sound effects were homages to Aliens, not ripoffs. They were said by different voice-actors, and I imagine that if permission were required (which I don't think it is), they got it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> IIRC I *think* there's a law covering satire, which protects people from being sued (correct me if I'm wrong D: ) and I think that sort of thing comes under it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
heres how i see the ns models situation, of course nobody has to agree with me here <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
1: ports from other games, by this im not talking about models ripped from other games but user made duplicates of the orginal idea. like the various starcraft models ive seen pimped on these forums. these i have no problem with as they are the modellers effort to include a part of a much loved game into the ns scenario. some models just look cool no matter what game they are in.
2: actual rips, these are the models lifted from avp and other games extracted from those various games and made to work in the ns formats. sometimes these contain orginal skins from the orginal games also. these i do not like, but some people do not have the ability to model to any great extent and simply port these models over. but ultimately this is ok because nearly all modellers start of this way, its good practise (for the modeller) to see how this stuff works and what changes are possible (i think of this type of modelling as homework modelling) and hopefully the modeller would eventually be confident enough to make a new totally orginal model for ns.
3: hack jobs, now these disgust me (no offence to any modelhackerz out there btw) simply because they usually blow and usually are totally unsuitable for the gametype they are ported into. the modeller usually just takes cool parts from several different weapons and assembles them into a bastardised version of the orginal. very frankenstinian method of modelling and one that i advise all potential modellers to avoid like the plague.
its perfectly fine if you want to use an m4 or a deagle in ns, but i personally think modern day weapons dont fit the overall ambience of ns, but if you can live with that then thats your decision. avp was a sweet game, based on a great story (from the movies) and has a lot of backhistory i think this is why people use the aliens themed stuff, simply to make ns look cooler (and lets face it you cant get models that would suit ns more).
i personally started several new aliens themed models (both characters and weapons) featuring totally new mesh and skins by me but this wasnt to seek kudos from the modelling community it was simply because i liked the aliens idea and wanted to see that in ns. i since ceased that idea leaving several unfinished models in the process (no time to finish them really)
i think that to create a totally new style of model for ns is the way to go, i mean the dod modelling community has it easy compared to ns, simply because everything that would look cool in dod was usually an existing actual item (weapon or vehicle or player type) so the dod modellers simply had to use a reference pic to work from to create their new models.
but ns is a game based on future concepts, nothing in ns has existed yet subsequentally the ideas for new replacements are much harder to aquire. i think this is the main reason weve seen few new models for ns, but MonsieurEvil recently posted asking for new models for ns, he probably has the same ideas about modelling as i do myself. i seen his request as a challenge and a good modeller loves a challenge so i started several new aliens replacements.
non of these will be based on existing games or even existing creatures. ive been doing a lot of research lately on hive societys and predators to get some backstory on animal behaviour, trying to find a meld of concepts to apply to a new predatory species. the rules of nature are simple, form follows function ect ect. this is what is helping me get the new concepts off the ground. its a simple trick a professional modeller would use to achieve what his art director required.
i would suggest that anyone willing to make a new model for ns at least try this methodology if they are stuck for ideas.
<!--QuoteBegin--Delarosa+Apr 14 2003, 02:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Delarosa @ Apr 14 2003, 02:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> no, i don't see it, i think that if you want original models enough, you'd help create them in one way or another
how you can help us create original models: ------------------------------------------------------- 1.) learn modeling, it's not THAT hard 2.) start drawing concept art, MSpaint wil get you laughed at, but not flamed 3.) start skinning models, i've got 6 here you can start with 4.) start animating models, i've got 8 of them here for ya 5.) start your own website, i've got 35 files you can start with!
6.) you COULD just drop the topic because your too lazy, but seeing your previous posts, i think you've got enough will power to bum the $20 off somone and buy MS3D and get your own models started. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *KKHM*not everybody have English as their first language,so how the heck i learn modelling if i dont see eny pics HOW to make them in tutorial full of text?if i cant understand every word,so get me a good tutorial and i'll shutup.
okay here's a little rant from me... you can like it or lump it, I don't care which.
Conversions are bottom of the barrel work. Reboneing an existing model to another game isn't part of the "learning process" and it isn't a "well it's already there"... it's LAZYNESS. If you want AVP play AVP... or if you really want AVP models in another game perhaps one should MAKE the models from scratch instead of latching onto someone else's work. Okay now let's say for all intensive purposes you still convert the model... why is it such a grand and great thing that you release it to the public? Heck, MANY MANY newbie modellers don't release their original works, including myself when I first started, I made a few models which I never released because you know what, they didn't deserve releasing. Perhaps those who used to play SI before NS came out remember my "ELSIE" model thread which I never released. You don't have to release every piece of junk you have on your hard drive, filling up message boards with more junk than quality work. Oh wait I forgot, conversions take SO MUCH work to do that people can't bother to do it themselves if they want it, so they need these piles and piles of conversions hosted for them on various sites. I'm glad at least SOME people want to host original-only models on their sites, because it's a pain in the butt to sift through all the junk that is released here. I visit a lot of threads on these boards but do tend to avoid "conversion threads" a lot. I don't download conversions and I "mostly" avoid posting on their threads.... but of course it's always nice to see my work or the work of another original author pushed to the third page of the forums the day after the thread is made because we've got to make room for 100 "new" conversions and the cult followings of AVP and other such games, along with their piles of requests for more conversions from those not intellectual enough to even rebone a model for themselves. And no I don't make many "bump" posts in threads either... I don't like bump replies. I like responding to a thread when I have something to say, not when the thread it "getting too low on the page".
If you love a movie or another game so much that you want those characters in NS PLEASE do that game justice by putting in some effort and creating something from scratch, what you imagine those characters to be. it's good to have that home made uniqueness to a model even if it is based on another game. Every modeller has their own little style that they go by which makes everything they do unique. No I don't hate most of the SC models being released/made because a lot of them were made from scratch by the thread's author. What disgusted me was when people were trying to think of ways to convert the 16k polies or so marine model into a usable NS polycount...
<!--QuoteBegin--Destroyder121+Apr 14 2003, 12:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Destroyder121 @ Apr 14 2003, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *KKHM*not everybody have English as their first language,so how the heck i learn modelling if i dont see eny pics HOW to make them in tutorial full of text?if i cant understand every word,so get me a good tutorial and i'll shutup. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i'm working on that... ther are VIDEO tutorials out there... those pass all languages..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3: hack jobs, now these disgust me (no offence to any modelhackerz out there btw) simply because they usually blow and usually are totally unsuitable for the gametype they are ported into. the modeller usually just takes cool parts from several different weapons and assembles them into a bastardised version of the orginal. very frankenstinian method of modelling and one that i advise all potential modellers to avoid like the plague. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OUCH! Man, blue2k, that really hurt, almost all the models I have released so far to this forum have been hackjobs. I'm just kinda getting back into modelling so i need a little practice, but that was harsh! So, are you sayng that that models I have released are utter crap??
I personally believe that hacking models is a great way to learn. You get to see another guy's work up close. You use it as a reference. If your making a new skulk model you can load up the previous one and shape it to get an idea of what you want. This helps as the animations are already there as well as the skinmesh, and skin. It has the right size, postion, and correctly placed hitboxes. When your learning it helps to be able to complete something on your own without reluctant help from others and without learning every aspect of what you want to learn (In this case modeling). You can then test your tweaked model and test it ingame. Then you can change it, alter the skin, change the mesh, dabble in altering animations, and after a while it becomes a whole new model, your creation (Ofcourse you'd still have to credit the original author if you released). But since you leave out all of the tediousness of creating a whole new animation set, skinmesh, and skin it makes it much more enjoyable experiance. It's just like homework as you said. But, with homework you don't do a hundred of the same probelms over and over if you already know how to do or don't plan on the learning. You dabble in a little of each type and spend time where you really need (or want) to work.
Hackjobs in NS is especially useful, as many people complain that they won't use custom models because it takes away from the NS feel. But, if you were to just alter the model but keep the basic idea intact you can have the best of both worlds (ex. my marine buildings). Hacking up a model is great for experiance and a wonderful learning tool. It's like looking at another's artwork for ideas or to get inspired. Which all the starting artists in the world do. Ofcourse soon you start to find your own style and start experimenting with creating things from scratch. And once you do that you already have a great background in whatever your creating and know enough to make it even better.
I know there are alot of people who release some poorly executed ones, but give 'em a break. They're trying to learn to get better, we should encourage them and maybe some day they'll release a model that will blow us all away. Also remember they are putting themselves on the line to present some of their work. Feelings can be easily hurt.
So, please don't bring down hackjobs, they should be part of everyone's learning experiance.
Wow... did I really type that much?...
Edit: Oh... and blue2k I saw your "no offence to modelhax" bit, I just felt the need to rant a little...
if you feel that hackjobs are part of the <b>learning experience</b> then by default you obviously <b>aspire</b> to create <b>original content</b>. its people that never progress past this initial starting phase that im referring to. if you know deep down that this is an educational release then one day (maybe) you will release a new model. not all models are well received on release, but at least you have to respect the modeller for his time and effort taken to produce something new (even if its crap)
but you have to admit that hackjobs are on the lower end of the modelling food chain.
actually I'd put reskins above hackjobs and conversions. With reskins you get what you came for... a skin, not a model...
and if hackjobs are a "learning experience" as you say, than perhaps you shouldn't release them to the public? keep making your hackjobs until you feel confident enough to make something original. Don't release this so called "learning experience" so others can see your lack of experience.
Well, I started off by doing reskins, so that's why I put them first. Also, I didn't intend to release my "main" hack (which is very simple - the helmetless AvP marine) but people kept asking me for it after it appeared in another screenie (about cloaking in 1.04, I believe). Mostly I only do hackjobs because I'll see a little way a model might be improved (to my eyes), and go ahead and make the changes. I think I've only released two out of about ten that I've done for NS, because mainly they're just minor cosmetic changes.
oh and by reskins do you mean new skins or recoloured skins? because I put recoloured skins down low, and fresh skins up top <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
First ones I did were completely redone skins (Gurkha skins, for my clan), for CS. Other than a terrorist set for CS I also did they've just been simple recolours otherwise, mostly because all I disliked about the default NS models at first was the green/gold colour scheme.
I remind you guys that my zergling is a hackjob, seriously, I took the skulk as a base and changed it. Now, correct me if I'm wrong but I've gotten alot of praise for it. If it really is bad, just tell me, I really don't care, I'm just trying to prove a point.
Edit: Come to think of it my buildings were hackjobs as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--Souris+Apr 14 2003, 03:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Souris @ Apr 14 2003, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As I said further up, I think the modelling food chain is: reskins > conversions > hacks > models <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> recolours < conversions < hackjobs < reskins < original content <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm starting to breach into the last one <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
The main reason why outdoor maps are not included in NaSe is the fact that decent looking out door areas cannot be realzed with the HL engine - at least not in the quality the indoor maps are. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
when they say "outdoor maps" they dont mean huge sprawling maps. they mean maps SET in the outdoor, which could theoretically be smaller than the current stock ns maps. its just the idea of aliens fighting marine on an outdoors planet type world dosnt fit the game.
The #1 most important thing about new models (original or converted) is that they fit the NS environment. That's why I'm hit with a sudden WTH? when I see topics requesting (or releasing) conversions (or original models) of real-world weapons (OICW, Aug, M4, MP5 ... ).
I have no beef with the converters really - some things that have been brought to NS from elsewhere have been pretty nifty, like the Q3 Doom Guy. Nor do I have any kind of a problem with people making models based on movies or other games - we all like a bit o' the old sci-fi, and who has seen <i>Aliens</i> and doesn't want a pulse rifle, if only for a little while? However, seeing page after page of AVP and (sadly) now Starcraft models is a little tiresome. Yes, the colonial marine conversion is a fabulous model (the only AvP model I use, albeit a version I've messed around with myself), and some of the SC models are looking good too, but these attempts at making NS into something else seem silly (futile, even) to me.
I'm guilty of contributing to the SC stuff (also of converting models from other games - the Halo Master Chief StrykerWolf made for Firearms), but that was before I'd decided to learn to model properly. Also, my model is more about me getting to grips with making things from scratch so I can get cracking on making some original models than a conscious contribution to the SC "TC" - I'm only making a SC gun because it's the first thing that caught my attention. People who've been on this forum since NS's release may have noticed I've made a gradual progression from doing reskins to conversions, to hackjobs and now onto making my own models, and I can tell you that what I'm doing now is by far the most satisfying.
I think Delarosa is right - what this forum/community needs is people who can provide good, original ideas for models, or people willing to jump in and try their hand at skinning and modelling - hell, my stickied Modelling 101 thread was intended to encourage people to do just that.
(getting slightly off-topic)
Coil said it's perhaps a little daunting to take on a project for NS, because you need to make a consistent set of models, rather than just one or two. I disagree - although it might sometimes be the case (e.g. coil's chibi models - a commitment and a project I applaud, and the Giger stuff) it's not always true. The NS team has already given us a great concept for the aliens (and marines) - it's up to us to build on it, to create new and interesting variations on the default models. There's no need for custom models to look out of place when used in a pick'n'mix fashion. That's what NS needs, not conversions, not remakes of things from other games or movies, but models that are coherent with the compelling world Flayra (& co) have created.
/me steps off soapbox
On a similar note, I'd love to see original takes on the Kharaa attacks. The Skulk's "bite" attack isn't a bite - it's a 75-damage melee attack. You could replace the skulk with a little fat guy who swings a baseball bat at marines knees... while it might not be in the spirit of NS, it's a perfectly viable 75-damage melee attack. It's why I suggested a bite for the Hydralisk instead of a swipe, etc. My next model set for NS, after the chibipack, will hopefully take a very different look at the Kharaa.
Yes and no. I just mean models that fit with the look/feel of NS. The way you put it makes me think of every skulk being doglike, for example, and there's really no need for there to be that criterion. I just think that having models that look like they could be kharaa is better than having a motley collection of other things.
(edit: What I mean here is, for example, that although there are some models among the Giger stuff I like, I don't want to use all of them and just using a couple looks rather silly)
In fact, I think the only original and appealing "packs" people have come up with and would look "right" in the NS environment have been the chibipack and the cyborg/robot aliens.
Hey, may I suggest something?
Instead of trying a complete overhaul with a different look at Kharaa v_*.mdl files, you could try to do somesorta v_*.mdl files for the chibi aliens. Like the bite with the cute skulk. I think it would be really nice if he would swing those spikes at the enemy instead of biting or something.
Or doing something really cute... Like a tongue which the skulk uses to lick <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh well, I certainly did go a little off-topic again.
Huge outdoor maps would never work in a game like this btw... Well the whole point with the hives and bases would well.. not work. Maybe if the game was more hunt 'n kill rather than build a base type.
That little fat guy would be pretty funny, but I can believe what a pain it would be with hitboxes - you could bite the air 3 metres from the fat guy and he would get killed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> . But hey, think about the cute vee models Coil <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
also, i respect other ppl's opinions, which is this thread's all about, therefore i never flamed ppl on any forums before and i never will. ppl have their freedom to voice out there opinions, and unless it is as solid and bullet proof as mathematics and science laws, ( call me a nerd if u want, i'm a computer science major in university and i like to relate things to maths and science ) u can't say their opinions are wrong. there is no definite right or wrong in it, only a personal perspective.
but now, since some ppl starting to attack SC total conversion, i , as a die hard SC fan, have to at least defend it.
First of all, what is originality, how do u define originality? ( the tone sounds familiar <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ? ) if u are saying original means that the model has no parts of it that was done by other ppl, ( ie, not a conversion, not a hack job ) , then the SC models we are working on can all be called " pure original ", since all the models, skins , skeletons, animations are started from scratch. (maybe not the zergling, since teh author admitted it's a hack job from default skulk model , but even that has a lot of originality in it since the default skulks model can no where to be seen. )
but even if u define originality in terms of concept and ideas, then SC pack is not original at all, the ideas and concepts are from blizzard entertainment.
please note that even blizzard can't take full credit for their originality, since many of SC stuff ideas are ripped from other movies and games. ( some lines from SC marines and dropship officer are directly copy from James Cameron's Aliens movie ---- eg1 , the female dropship officer is exactly the same woman as the one in Aliens movie, eg 2 " How do i get out of this chicken**** outfit ?" , heck even this line is not James Cameron's original work. He told us in the director's interview for Aliens movie that he drew a lot of inspiration from Vietnam War. Later on when i read a book about Vietnam called "A rumor of war " by Philip Caputo, who was a US marine lieutenant in Vietnam during the early years of war and depicted what he saw in Nam in this book, i found out that this line was acutally said by another marine lieutenant during a mission debriefing in Nam. The line was exactly the same. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Souris, u said in your post that the SC total conversion pack and AVP pack is kind of silly and even futile. I have to disagree with u.
Why do think that some of us here play NS? excellent gameplay is of course a reason, thanks to the excellent work from NS team, but another reason is that it reminds us so much of Aliens universe and SC universe. With NS, we can actually be in this universe and shoot aliens <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> So very logically AVP pack and SC pack are inevitable. Personally i think Aliens theme and SC themes are the only 2 themes that completely fit into teh NS gameplay. ( But then again, it's just my opinion. See? it's just a matter of personal perspective )
Where do u think NS team drew inspirations from when they design this mod? every idea in NS gameplay was borrowed from starcraft and aliens movies/game.
Now i see that some of u might already busy starting another thread questioning NS team's originality.
The point is , yes, we WANT to turn NS into AVP, we WANT to turn NS into SC, because that's what some of us like to do. if u are not interested in these 2 themes, that's fine too. we respect that. Like i said, these are just all other ppl's taste and opinions, there is nothing wrong about it. everyone can use / work on the models they like, since these are not for sale and no profit involved, there is no copy right issue. although mention other ppls name as credit when u borrow their concepts/ideas/actual works is a must.
BUT JUST PLEASE DON'T ATTACK IT OR FLAME IT. U HAVE NO RIGHTS TO TAKE AWAY OTHER PPL'S INTEREST IN DOING SOMETHING, SIMPLY BECAUSE THAT U DO NOT SHARE THE SAME INTEREST.
I think that was put in as a joke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think that was put in as a joke <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think so.
they use this stuff as game content for sale, for profit.
ironic isn't it, Blizzard has been busy shutting down fan-created "free" mods for various games right from teh start, while their own product which is for sale rips off all the ideas and stuff from other games and movies. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Agreed
And frankly, if I were James Cameron, I'd love to have my movie quoted in a Blizzard game. (:
agreed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
IIRC I *think* there's a law covering satire, which protects people from being sued (correct me if I'm wrong D: ) and I think that sort of thing comes under it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
1: ports from other games, by this im not talking about models ripped from other games but user made duplicates of the orginal idea. like the various starcraft models ive seen pimped on these forums. these i have no problem with as they are the modellers effort to include a part of a much loved game into the ns scenario. some models just look cool no matter what game they are in.
2: actual rips, these are the models lifted from avp and other games extracted from those various games and made to work in the ns formats. sometimes these contain orginal skins from the orginal games also. these i do not like, but some people do not have the ability to model to any great extent and simply port these models over. but ultimately this is ok because nearly all modellers start of this way, its good practise (for the modeller) to see how this stuff works and what changes are possible (i think of this type of modelling as homework modelling) and hopefully the modeller would eventually be confident enough to make a new totally orginal model for ns.
3: hack jobs, now these disgust me (no offence to any modelhackerz out there btw) simply because they usually blow and usually are totally unsuitable for the gametype they are ported into. the modeller usually just takes cool parts from several different weapons and assembles them into a bastardised version of the orginal. very frankenstinian method of modelling and one that i advise all potential modellers to avoid like the plague.
its perfectly fine if you want to use an m4 or a deagle in ns, but i personally think modern day weapons dont fit the overall ambience of ns, but if you can live with that then thats your decision. avp was a sweet game, based on a great story (from the movies) and has a lot of backhistory i think this is why people use the aliens themed stuff, simply to make ns look cooler (and lets face it you cant get models that would suit ns more).
i personally started several new aliens themed models (both characters and weapons) featuring totally new mesh and skins by me but this wasnt to seek kudos from the modelling community it was simply because i liked the aliens idea and wanted to see that in ns. i since ceased that idea leaving several unfinished models in the process (no time to finish them really)
i think that to create a totally new style of model for ns is the way to go, i mean the dod modelling community has it easy compared to ns, simply because everything that would look cool in dod was usually an existing actual item (weapon or vehicle or player type) so the dod modellers simply had to use a reference pic to work from to create their new models.
but ns is a game based on future concepts, nothing in ns has existed yet subsequentally the ideas for new replacements are much harder to aquire. i think this is the main reason weve seen few new models for ns, but MonsieurEvil recently posted asking for new models for ns, he probably has the same ideas about modelling as i do myself. i seen his request as a challenge and a good modeller loves a challenge so i started several new aliens replacements.
non of these will be based on existing games or even existing creatures. ive been doing a lot of research lately on hive societys and predators to get some backstory on animal behaviour, trying to find a meld of concepts to apply to a new predatory species. the rules of nature are simple, form follows function ect ect. this is what is helping me get the new concepts off the ground. its a simple trick a professional modeller would use to achieve what his art director required.
i would suggest that anyone willing to make a new model for ns at least try this methodology if they are stuck for ideas.
how you can help us create original models:
-------------------------------------------------------
1.) learn modeling, it's not THAT hard
2.) start drawing concept art, MSpaint wil get you laughed at, but not flamed
3.) start skinning models, i've got 6 here you can start with
4.) start animating models, i've got 8 of them here for ya
5.) start your own website, i've got 35 files you can start with!
6.) you COULD just drop the topic because your too lazy, but seeing your previous posts, i think you've got enough will power to bum the $20 off somone and buy MS3D and get your own models started. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*KKHM*not everybody have English as their first language,so how the heck i learn modelling if i dont see eny pics HOW to make them in tutorial full of text?if i cant understand every word,so get me a good tutorial and i'll shutup.
Conversions are bottom of the barrel work. Reboneing an existing model to another game isn't part of the "learning process" and it isn't a "well it's already there"... it's LAZYNESS. If you want AVP play AVP... or if you really want AVP models in another game perhaps one should MAKE the models from scratch instead of latching onto someone else's work. Okay now let's say for all intensive purposes you still convert the model... why is it such a grand and great thing that you release it to the public? Heck, MANY MANY newbie modellers don't release their original works, including myself when I first started, I made a few models which I never released because you know what, they didn't deserve releasing. Perhaps those who used to play SI before NS came out remember my "ELSIE" model thread which I never released. You don't have to release every piece of junk you have on your hard drive, filling up message boards with more junk than quality work. Oh wait I forgot, conversions take SO MUCH work to do that people can't bother to do it themselves if they want it, so they need these piles and piles of conversions hosted for them on various sites. I'm glad at least SOME people want to host original-only models on their sites, because it's a pain in the butt to sift through all the junk that is released here. I visit a lot of threads on these boards but do tend to avoid "conversion threads" a lot. I don't download conversions and I "mostly" avoid posting on their threads.... but of course it's always nice to see my work or the work of another original author pushed to the third page of the forums the day after the thread is made because we've got to make room for 100 "new" conversions and the cult followings of AVP and other such games, along with their piles of requests for more conversions from those not intellectual enough to even rebone a model for themselves. And no I don't make many "bump" posts in threads either... I don't like bump replies. I like responding to a thread when I have something to say, not when the thread it "getting too low on the page".
If you love a movie or another game so much that you want those characters in NS PLEASE do that game justice by putting in some effort and creating something from scratch, what you imagine those characters to be. it's good to have that home made uniqueness to a model even if it is based on another game. Every modeller has their own little style that they go by which makes everything they do unique. No I don't hate most of the SC models being released/made because a lot of them were made from scratch by the thread's author. What disgusted me was when people were trying to think of ways to convert the 16k polies or so marine model into a usable NS polycount...
As I said that's my rant, like it or lump it.
i'm working on that... ther are VIDEO tutorials out there... those pass all languages..
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OUCH! Man, blue2k, that really hurt, almost all the models I have released so far to this forum have been hackjobs. I'm just kinda getting back into modelling so i need a little practice, but that was harsh! So, are you sayng that that models I have released are utter crap??
I personally believe that hacking models is a great way to learn. You get to see another guy's work up close. You use it as a reference. If your making a new skulk model you can load up the previous one and shape it to get an idea of what you want. This helps as the animations are already there as well as the skinmesh, and skin. It has the right size, postion, and correctly placed hitboxes. When your learning it helps to be able to complete something on your own without reluctant help from others and without learning every aspect of what you want to learn (In this case modeling). You can then test your tweaked model and test it ingame. Then you can change it, alter the skin, change the mesh, dabble in altering animations, and after a while it becomes a whole new model, your creation (Ofcourse you'd still have to credit the original author if you released). But since you leave out all of the tediousness of creating a whole new animation set, skinmesh, and skin it makes it much more enjoyable experiance. It's just like homework as you said. But, with homework you don't do a hundred of the same probelms over and over if you already know how to do or don't plan on the learning. You dabble in a little of each type and spend time where you really need (or want) to work.
Hackjobs in NS is especially useful, as many people complain that they won't use custom models because it takes away from the NS feel. But, if you were to just alter the model but keep the basic idea intact you can have the best of both worlds (ex. my marine buildings). Hacking up a model is great for experiance and a wonderful learning tool. It's like looking at another's artwork for ideas or to get inspired. Which all the starting artists in the world do. Ofcourse soon you start to find your own style and start experimenting with creating things from scratch. And once you do that you already have a great background in whatever your creating and know enough to make it even better.
I know there are alot of people who release some poorly executed ones, but give 'em a break. They're trying to learn to get better, we should encourage them and maybe some day they'll release a model that will blow us all away. Also remember they are putting themselves on the line to present some of their work. Feelings can be easily hurt.
So, please don't bring down hackjobs, they should be part of everyone's learning experiance.
Wow... did I really type that much?...
Edit: Oh... and blue2k I saw your "no offence to modelhax" bit, I just felt the need to rant a little...
but you have to admit that hackjobs are on the lower end of the modelling food chain.
and if hackjobs are a "learning experience" as you say, than perhaps you shouldn't release them to the public? keep making your hackjobs until you feel confident enough to make something original. Don't release this so called "learning experience" so others can see your lack of experience.
Edit: Come to think of it my buildings were hackjobs as well.
recolours < conversions < hackjobs < reskins < original content <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm starting to breach into the last one <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->