Strange And Boring Trend
XCan
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5904Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5904Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Yes a balance issue</div> A few days ago you would hear many players complain how aliens win too much. Now a few days later I've realised that the marines win too much.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
No really, I think the JP is really messing up the game atm. There is a failsafe strategy in a big game > 18 players for the marines. Cap 3 res, put soldiers defending them, now don't tell an organized skulk attack will take them out because they won't, remember concentrated firepower? Tech to JP HMG usually take 5 mins at maximum and wack the hive (you only need 1 JP HMG to kill it but goes faster with many). This isn't the main problem the main problem is the skulks have no chance against a JP especially not in a big room. Something needs to be done, for now you can only play on smaller servers.
No really, I think the JP is really messing up the game atm. There is a failsafe strategy in a big game > 18 players for the marines. Cap 3 res, put soldiers defending them, now don't tell an organized skulk attack will take them out because they won't, remember concentrated firepower? Tech to JP HMG usually take 5 mins at maximum and wack the hive (you only need 1 JP HMG to kill it but goes faster with many). This isn't the main problem the main problem is the skulks have no chance against a JP especially not in a big room. Something needs to be done, for now you can only play on smaller servers.
Comments
It is just not common yet that people go lerk against an jp HMG rush, but try it.
Last I checked it takes time to evolve into a lerk, and time is something the aliens will lack if a jetbo's zooming around the hive killing it.
It's possible to defend against it, merely very hard. When the resource issues and hitbox problems are solved, the strategies should change drastically.
i dont think the people that made the mod are going to to take something like a jetpack out of the game.
the jetpack helps the marines get away from the stupid 3 skulks jumping at him.. stop complaining. aliens are strong enough, and they got a new move in v1.1, so SUYF and stop complaining. i tel you now, if they remove the jetpack, ill find a hack with something better then a jetpack wmhauhaua A SUPER JETPACK!
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Edit: Thank god, my imaginery hat is safe!! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
On a side note, a *good* JP rush can be stopped, you have to go lerk as soon as you can, it slows the resources down to a crawl, but 4 or 5 lerks can maybe have a 50/50 chance of stopping the rush.
Unless the marines are complete noobs[1], you will find that all the Kharaa res towers outside the hive are dead, and that any attempt at expanding from your hive is met by motion-tracking, HMG armed jetpack hunters. Thus, lerks dare not leave the hive as they die too fast from the HMG's, and if they do, they won't be able to go lerk again for quite a while, thus risking that a stray rambo goes and kills your hive.
What happens then is that the marines have the whole map, you have the hive. Doesn't sound like a winning proposition to me.
Frankly, the JP rush is incredibly fast and powerful, and even if the first push is defeated, the marines will still win. The only real counter strategy is probably a super-early gorge rush.
I think we can safely expect the JP to become more expensive, probably with some endurance limits (ie, increased energy cost if carrying heavy weapons/much ammo) as well as limits on how quickly it regains energy while in the air.
[1] Grr... I hate it when I drop 5 HMG's, 3 GL, 8 jetpacks and tell my team to hit the single alien hive. End result? 8 dead marines killed by hive 1 aliens. Against maintenance hive, of all hives.
JP counters Onos??
That means either JP comes MUCH later in the game or aliens get Onos MUCH earlier in the game. Hmm. I bet its onos earlier, seeing as the way it is now you dont always get onos. That also means onos lose paralyze, because thats the onos's counter to JPs and you cant have the same 2 units be counters to eachother.
AHHH the wait is killing me!!
/me drools over a peice of paper with "V1.1" written on it
scares me when flayra posts, every. time. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe it's the servers I play on but most marine teams I've gone against like to have fun, as well as wanting to win. Most see the JP tech rush as a boring game, while I hope it is fixed in the future I guess it hasn't been a huge problem in my experience.
P.S. While "good" JP rushes are tough to stop most of the time 2-3 OC and DC plus a lerk and a few dedicated skulks will be enough to save the hive.
hmm, I think currently paralyze works agasint jetpackers....soo, if the jp is the counter to the onos, then it's likely the new "devour" will be replacing paralyze for the onos, depending on how much the weps are rearranged.
oh and also, what server u guys play on ? they seem very easy to play on, i play on eftel and optus ( fully of **** ppl with cable cheaters )
JP counters Onos??
That means either JP comes MUCH later in the game or aliens get Onos MUCH earlier in the game. Hmm. I bet its onos earlier, seeing as the way it is now you dont always get onos. That also means onos lose paralyze, because thats the onos's counter to JPs and you cant have the same 2 units be counters to eachother.
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Good insight...
You may as well let them have the hive and go build another one, with 5 lerks, your gorges are going to be waiting 20 mins for enough the build an OC...
Fact is, if marines do a JP rush, the aliens are FORCED to counter, yet there nothing in the alien early game that forces a counter in this way. JP rushing is lame to be honest, exploiting an item by build more than is intended is really lame.
Entire teams aren't meant to be jet pack equiped, only a few marines.
It just creates an imbalance by abusing the fact that the JP becomes exponentially more effective when more than 2 or 3 people have them.
If the aliens have two hives then you can defend against jetpacks by
a) webbing the ceilings (enormously funny to see them get caught and fall to their deaths)
b) acid rockets
c) protect the hive with umbra
*Waiting eagerly for 1.1*
Strategy varies depending on the number of players. In very small games a vanilla HMG rush with just the nozzle we started with is the most effective strategy. Although it depends on few good men, a good marine player with an HMG and motion tracking can beat a skulk at two to one odds. A pack of three such players is unstoppable by a similar number of skulks.
With more players on the team the resource nozzles become more valuable, and with resources and a little time you can get JPs, and two good jetbos can drop a hive in seconds. The more players, the more upgrades you should get, and if most of your team is HMG wielding Jetbos with armor, weapon and motion sensor upgrades, they can swarm hives and drop them easily.
One 16 player game, the previous match I played as an alien and won, I noted an excellent player who managed to kill one of our hives before I could kill him. The next round I was marine, but the aliens got the better of us, and our commander just f4ed while he was still in the chair, leaving 6 marines to fight off 8 aliens with out a commander. With Bile bombs and the like pouring into our base I took command, and after consulting the good player I mentioned previously, I equipped him and another player with JP's and Welders. When they got there, there got to work immediately, but there was a smart alike fade there bombarding them from the safety of several DCs, so I dropped med packs furiously on top of them. After they finished that Hive, I grabbed my own JP and HMG, and joined the two at Computer core, where we dispatched that hive with ease. Immediately we turned around, on my prompting, and returned to Maintenance to kill the new hive that was being built there. I died soon after, but needless to say we won with 7 marines against 8 aliens, including an Onos that was alive for quite a while after there where no hives.
The point of this long story is….
Jet Packs, being as cheap and quick to get as they are now, are so powerful there is no reason for marines to use anything else.
A jp'er who know enough to stay away from walls and other objects is also virtually invulnerable to fades (out of splash range), as well as the gorges. Skulks don't even have a chance until the jp'er makes a mistake. Couple that with the occasional medpack and ammo pack, and you guys know how it goes...
And yes, I'd imagine that paralyze is going away, since it was only ever actually useful for killing jpers. Everyone else you could just run over, so keeping them still is kind of moot.
If you hadn't mentioned it, I know I would've. Lots of times I've seen this counter strategy just pisses the marines off so much most of them F4.
Usually why this is so effective is because the marines don't have a visual communication system, so they won't know they've just been raped from behind. Then once the marine base defenders are taken out, the infantry portals turn into pez dispensers and once that command chair is gone, its over if the aliens have detered any resource expansion, putting the commander in a position where he has no way to defend any expansion or even have the time to throw down a safe command chair, let alone infantry portals.
i totally agree with the sitting on 3 res nodes guarding, wait for res, get JPs and HMGs, and rush. thats what i like to do in pub games for 2 reasons....
1) people hear "im getting JPs" and they are all for teamwork
2) people hear "im getting HMGs" and they are all for teamwork
why? cause when i comm, those who dont listen dont get anything <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
ok. balance issue. nah. if you got good aliens and get carapace you can attack res nodes that are guarded.
im real sick of hearing about the balance issue. its a good game. play it and love it. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
In my experience, when the jp rush is done the aliens find out very quickly because they see we only have one ip and one armory and usually they wait until the jpers leave the base and while the marines are out to take a hive the aliens rush the base kill anyone who may be attempting to guard it with ease, destroy the base and even though the marines may have taken the hive or retreated to find their base gone the gorg is usually just putting up a second hive leaving the jpers to the mercy to the lerks/skulks.
If you hadn't mentioned it, I know I would've. Lots of times I've seen this counter strategy just pisses the marines off so much most of them F4.
Usually why this is so effective is because the marines don't have a visual communication system, so they won't know they've just been raped from behind. Then once the marine base defenders are taken out, the infantry portals turn into pez dispensers and once that command chair is gone, its over if the aliens have detered any resource expansion, putting the commander in a position where he has no way to defend any expansion or even have the time to throw down a safe command chair, let alone infantry portals. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cause we all know that <b>good</b> marine teams have lousy defense, right?
Gorge = A.A. Emplacement.
Try to gorge spray a marine down. He will get some damage into the hive, but its better than hoping the hitboxes line up while chomping at a jp'er and it works extremely well. especially with two gorges. If they send Three jetpackers you will need two gorges for sure.
now which is more expensive, 2 gorges or 5 lerks =\ where you are not garunteed to take them out as lerk or skulk. oh and if you thought I meant acid spit, ur a newb and relly dont need to work on theses starategies yet <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.
If the aliens have two hives then you can defend against jetpacks by
a) webbing the ceilings (enormously funny to see them get caught and fall to their deaths)
b) acid rockets
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The problem with all your counter moves is that they require two hives. This is not allways an viable option.
The JP rush is very powerful indeed. But it's not the uncounterable, horrible thing that many people make it out to be, it just requires different tactics. This means getting res early (if you're still going for 3 dc really early you deserve to get JP rushed), getting a couple of lerks after the hive starts building BEFORE you hear the sounds of JPs, denying the marines res, getting offies up, webbing the hives if you've actually managed to get the 2nd hive up (I've also found webbing a dark corner in a corridor with a couple of offies next to it effective. Some marines won't run their welder until they get close to the hive). You may wish to consider two gorges once the hive is building for extra defences.
JPs mean that you can't just say 'don't spend any res, except that required to get a second hive and fades'. You have to spend res if you want to live. It also <b>really</b> irritates me when 3 people have decided to go gorge at the beginning of a game, put a dc down each, and then leave one person to go perma-gorge. They've delayed hive 2 by about 3-5 minutes, and then they have the nerve to **** about the JP rush being uber when the hive gets gunned down.
The JP rush is a very strong tactic. At the moment it is overpowered. It's not, however, the completely uncounterable tactic people make it out to be.
So either have a large force, dispatch the quicker, or abandon the hive and hit the marine spawn.
Even though this is a moot point as it is being 'fixed' in 1.1.