JP *rush* takes down the hive long before the 2nd hive is done being built. No webbing, umbra, or fades. Not even leap for skulks. Good JPers almost never hit the ground (due to the FPS issue) and can take down a hive in under 30 seconds.
Rushing the marine spawn doesn't help because: 1) It's easy for only a few good JPers to take down the hive - the rest of the team can be guarding the base. 2) Even if you manage, if you lose the hive the auto-kill means that the marines win just by staying alive a few extra seconds.
Flayra, good to hear the changes. Onos can't kill what onos can't hit. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW, if anyone cares I'm mostly a Kharaa player (random team does that) and my views may or may not reflect that).
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Marines <i>tech</i> when they JP rush so they have the infrastructure to switch to anything else if it fails. Yes it is almost impossible to switch if the alien team is competent. But with good JPers, it almost never fails, because large marine teams can reach JP <i>fast</i>.
Let's look at the poor aliens. They can save for 2nd hive (tech), which almost never works, since they will be left with one again very soon. Or, they can go Lerk or set up WOL, which lets marines get more RTs and deny themselves of that vital 2nd hive, period
Problem with lerks is that it takes 2 lerks or so to take down a jp hmger with health spam on him.
If you have 2 jetpack hmgs, to take the guy down before the hive goes down you need 3 lerks or so, and the other skulks trying to get lucky bites.
Usually the marines have enough res to kit out 3 marines, and even if the first wave of attack fails, they usually have time for a 2nd attempt. And to not get a hive down in 2 attempts is rare.
On some maps jp hmg is more of a problem than others e.g eclipse, which is horribly marine biased ATM.
However all shall be adressed in 1.1 and thank god for that.
As I said in the Kharaa Strategy forum, (among other things) the trick is to counter JPs before they arrive. The best place to do that is in the vents. On ns_nancy we had repeated JP\HMG attacks on subspace through the vent. I started going skulk and patrolling the vents, parasiting JPs before they arrived (and warning my team) so that my team could get there in time. I even managed to take down about 25% of them in the vents myself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MobJustice+Feb 26 2003, 03:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MobJustice @ Feb 26 2003, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Cause we all know that <b>good</b> marine teams have lousy defense, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, because the nature of the jet pack and heavy machine gun rush is putting all your resources towards that to do it soon enough to effectively cancel out any chance on the part of the Kharaa to counter with morphs or new abilities. What is the minimum you can lay down as a commander to effectively get JP and HMG so you can "rush"? I doubt this includes a whole lot of automated defences and as soon as you have marines leaving the base from guard duty boredom, restlessness, and expansion to new resources, your player power becomes spread out and it doesn't take much for the Kharaa to circumvent the outer perimeter and attack from multiple directions. Even without that well communicated scenario taking advantage of a thin defense, even large numbers of skulks in one area can close on marines pronto. Destroying any buildings can devestate their progress when the focus is solely on getting the JP/HMG weapon load out ASAP. Any marine commander that has had their base gutted will let you know that they _have_ to move the base to continue rooting out the infestation, distracting him/her from now isolated JP/HMG marines. Even if the JP/HMG marines take down the original hive, a busy gorge could have enough resources for the second hive at the 5 minute mark specified before in this thread. This would mean the JP/HMG marine would have no reinforcements coming and be running low on ammo, while the Kharaa should be on their way to establishing themselves again. Even good teams have trouble when only the lone ranger is left...
In this post I see people saying that you need two lerks and all this other stuff, generally if the second hive is going up, I've got carapace if the gorge knows what he's doing, and I always lerk when the second hive is almost going up.
As the only lerk I can fly around the hive in circles and take out 2-3 JPs before one of them manages to shoot me down IF they manage...it's not a matter of needing several lerks, or this and that, it's a matter or using some skill and strategy, or wait for them to fall, since most do, and skulk them, or climb the hive and jump off it at em... <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> = <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--CanadianWolverine+Feb 26 2003, 10:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CanadianWolverine @ Feb 26 2003, 10:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--MobJustice+Feb 26 2003, 03:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MobJustice @ Feb 26 2003, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Cause we all know that <b>good</b> marine teams have lousy defense, right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, because the nature of the jet pack and heavy machine gun rush is putting all your resources towards that to do it soon enough to effectively cancel out any chance on the part of the Kharaa to counter with morphs or new abilities. What is the minimum you can lay down as a commander to effectively get JP and HMG so you can "rush"? I doubt this includes a whole lot of automated defences <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Minimum JP rush is 276 resources (IP, armory, arms lab, armor upgrade, RT, RT, armory upgrade, weapon upgrade, prototype lab, jetpack research). Assuming an average of 3 res nodes in an 8v8 game, this is 58 res/min and so the 176 res needed for this takes 3 minutes. One more minute to equip the jetpackers, and the jetpackers will hit the hive at the 5-6 minute mark.
The five minute mark is also when a single gorge is building the second RT. Average skulk resources are at about 25.
Now, on some maps the minimum defense works well. Eclipse seems to be designed for this, with horseshoe and station access also guarding the only two ways into the base, and also being reasonably close for marines at the outposts to fall back into the base quickly enough, if one outpost is overwhelmed.
On other maps, you will need the second IP, a couple of minepacks, maybe OBS+MT, which will delay the attack by several minutes.
<!--QuoteBegin--XCan+Feb 26 2003, 09:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Feb 26 2003, 09:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is a failsafe strategy in a big game > 18 players for the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 18 players? That means at least 17 players on the aliens side... that gives 35 total players minimum... funny thing that, I thought the player limit was 32. If there were 18 marines and 14 aliens, (32 total) then its team balance thats the problem. Also, bigger games screw up the dynamic of NS.
I don't get it. If the gorge builds some offense chambers and defense chambers around the hive i don't see what the big deal is. Aliens still win 80% of the public games that i play, marine victories are only due to luck, or a skilled commander with a skilled team. I don't see why the JP rush is so bad. I really don't. I am a 50/50 player for both sides and i've seen JP rushes work and not work, it depends how early in the game. I don't like the fact that JPs will cost more. I'm hoping they will be about 11-15 max because otherwise you will have to do some tweaking to the fade then because it is remarkably easy for him to take down jetpacks and a lot of the times by the time they get fades you have 1 armor and 1 weapon upgrade, and jetpacks are just researching when the fades come.
If your team is not getting resources very quickly then killing the hives with HMGs and Jetpacks works and in my eyes as long as 1 fade or onos can take out an undefended marine base then i don't see why the JP rush isn't "proper"
<!--QuoteBegin--XCan+Feb 26 2003, 09:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Feb 26 2003, 09:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A few days ago you would hear many players complain how aliens win too much. Now a few days later I've realised that the marines win too much.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> No really, I think the JP is really messing up the game atm. There is a failsafe strategy in a big game > 18 players for the marines. Cap 3 res, put soldiers defending them, now don't tell an organized skulk attack will take them out because they won't, remember concentrated firepower? Tech to JP HMG usually take 5 mins at maximum and wack the hive (you only need 1 JP HMG to kill it but goes faster with many). This isn't the main problem the main problem is the skulks have no chance against a JP especially not in a big room. Something needs to be done, for now you can only play on smaller servers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And while they secure those nodes rush in, or ambush them, or etc etc. Marines need a way to win to.
You who respond, please read the previous posts instead of just the last page. I said the marines could get JP/HMG before the gorge even has chance of setting down 3 DC, 1 RT and 1 DC at max. Now how can the rest of the kharaa go lerk?
Try going for two rt first thing. It makes life a bit hard for the skulks at first, but it's often worth it in the end. You will also have enough res for people to go lerk.
Question is, if the commander knows how to jetpack hmg rush, then what would his win percentage be?
Mine would be about 80 percent if i was commanding and had ONE good marine on my team and a few average ones. Unless aliens are very organised and skilled.
In clan matches, marines have distinct advantages on certain maps, but not all, which is good.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Soldier of Misfortune+Feb 27 2003, 06:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soldier of Misfortune @ Feb 27 2003, 06:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't get it. If the gorge builds some offense chambers and defense chambers around the hive i don't see what the big deal is.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I will repeat myself. THERE IS NO TIME TO BUILD ANY DEFENSES AT THE HIVE! Correctly done, the jetpackers will hit the hive at about the time the first gorge builds the second resource tower (~6 minute point with 2 jetpackers in an 8v8 game. Faster in larger games).
If the gorge foregoes the second restower, he will be able to build about two chambers instead of the 2nd restower by the time the HMG toting jetpackers arrive. Maybe three. Just barely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aliens still win 80% of the public games that i play, marine victories are only due to luck, or a skilled commander with a skilled team. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. A commander that knows the JP rush don't really need to be all that skilled, and neither does his marines. That aliens win is more an indication that the commander didn't use a JP rush. Or a mine rush. Or a HMG rush. Or any other rush that relies on the very weak early game skulks and their limited spawn rate.
I agree that the JP/HMG rush is overpowered and inbalancing. But then again I <i>knew</i> Flayra would take care of it because the Clan scene would really suffer if every Marine strategy is about the Tech Rush.
To be completely honest as a commander I only use the Tech Rush if the Marines have been losing alot. <i>Even though I know it is less efficient</i> I find the PG Rush/Hive Lockdown to be the best strategy for an exciting, action-packed, medium length game. If you find yourself with two decent teamplaying teams (And on pubs you can really only expect decent teamplay most of the time) the PG Rush/Hive Lockdown is a really exciting 30-45min fight.
Funny how the numbers <b>1.1</b> can make a bunch of people so excited...
My opinon (or anyone's) on this matter hopefully wont influence Flayra and Co. when they make their 1.1 changes. I believe Grendel has voiced his opinon on the matter, I trust the guys that made us this great game, and when I find something so out of balance that it makes Baby Jesus cry, I will come here and spam the boards and whine.
I dont like the rush. Its a bit broken now. Just my OPINON. I'm glad we are all expressing ours here, but lets not get too excited and just let the devs do their thing. Cool? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ok, flame me if you will, but look at it this way. What is cheap about the JP/HMG rush? The fact the aliens have no time to prepare for it as from all i have read. Alright here is my way of looking at it. A team of aliens, a strong 5 or 6 skulks can rush the marine base and kill them while they are unprepared. I don't care what you say i really don't, the average public marine team will not be able to stand much chance against even fairly decent skulks. The marines will be building about the second inf portal/armory by the time the aliens get there and they will be chowed down on. After that a few seconds later the two inf portals are down and all the marines have left is the commander against an entire team of skulks.
Believe me or not i could care less because i have seen it done. 3 times in a row in fact on NS bast. If you look at the stratagy there is really no differance, both hit the enemy before they can get set up. Before 1.04 (i think) the marines could do the same to the hive because it started at zero life. If you ask me, then good for the commander if he can get enough resources to put up 1 or 2 inf portals (22 res each) an armory (25 or so i forget) an arms lab (45) and a prototype lab (45), reseach jetpacks (25 i think) wait long enough for it to finish, dish out say 6 HMGs (25 each) and 6 Jetpacks (9 each) so lets do the math here. (Of course this is assuming we are playing on a marine team of 7 players)
2 Inf portals Armory Arms Lab Prototype Lab research 6 HMGs and 6 jetpacks + -------------------------------- 388 Resources
Ok my numbers may be a bit off, i don't command much, however this is just the bare minimum. Nothing to fall back on at all if your team fails because a counter attack/skulk rush will finish your base off. That is 288 resources you have to earn because the team starts off with 100.
I play NS a lot. 2 or 3 times a night on average. I have seen few successful HMG/JP rushes, to the commanders <b>and</b> players that pull it off. Good for you, your days are numbered.
This is not a flame, just an argument. Feel free to argue back just keep flaming to a minimum. (This is a discussion not a fight)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A team of aliens, a strong 5 or 6 skulks can rush the marine base and kill them while they are unprepared. I don't care what you say i really don't, the average public marine team will not be able to stand much chance against even fairly decent skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Soldier of Misfortune+Feb 27 2003, 03:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soldier of Misfortune @ Feb 27 2003, 03:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2 Inf portals Armory Arms Lab Prototype Lab research 6 HMGs and 6 jetpacks + -------------------------------- 388 Resources <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But, you do not need 6 Marines with HMG + JP to take down a hive. Often, one marine is enough, or two if the aliens can get themselves organised.
<!--QuoteBegin--Niteowl+Feb 26 2003, 06:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Niteowl @ Feb 26 2003, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> scares me when flayra posts, every. time. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that's weird, but it's the same here.. It's like... ooooh... Flayra... *rolls out red carpet in front of him*
FLAYRA YOURE MY HERO <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
edited March 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Feb 27 2003, 10:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Feb 27 2003, 10:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A team of aliens, a strong 5 or 6 skulks can rush the marine base and kill them while they are unprepared. I don't care what you say i really don't, the average public marine team will not be able to stand much chance against even fairly decent skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/me mocks your marine team relentlessly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Concur must I. The Marine team is laughably bad if they get killed by a skulk rush. With no carpace one marine can take 2 skulks with one lmg clip and another with pistol.
It all depends what server you play on. If you play on a server where 95 percent are regs like I do marines+jetpack = HmmmDeddd. I don't pretend to know the complicated res model but it needs fixing. I have seen a marine team with 2-3 res node jetpack rush me (gg_randomteam alien everytime) even after I have eaten 2 nodes in 8 minutes. Now we sit back and pray for 1.1. If the dev team is smart enough to craft this awesome game, I am sure they can balance it and keep it fun.
The problem of the matter that most people who complain aliens win more is that they play mostly on pubs, where organization is minimal if not barely recognizable. On the opposite side of the coin, on highly organized clan servers, marines win most of the time.
The matter then becomes a debate as to whether or not the powers that be would like to balance the game in favor of the more casual pub players, or the hard core clanners. I'm in favor of the latter myself.
I'd say even to nerf the marines a lil bit more, as a highly organized marine team right now is nigh on indestructable.
I was thinking about a feature that might help killing the rushes. Maybe the hives and the marine CC would emit something that damages the other team rapidly unless they have some kind of protection. Marines -> HA, Kharaa -> Onos or Umbra... I don't know but at least this will make the key of winning to be res....
Comments
JP *rush* takes down the hive long before the 2nd hive is done being built. No webbing, umbra, or fades. Not even leap for skulks. Good JPers almost never hit the ground (due to the FPS issue) and can take down a hive in under 30 seconds.
Rushing the marine spawn doesn't help because:
1) It's easy for only a few good JPers to take down the hive - the rest of the team can be guarding the base.
2) Even if you manage, if you lose the hive the auto-kill means that the marines win just by staying alive a few extra seconds.
Flayra, good to hear the changes. Onos can't kill what onos can't hit. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW, if anyone cares I'm mostly a Kharaa player (random team does that) and my views may or may not reflect that).
Let's look at the poor aliens. They can save for 2nd hive (tech), which almost never works, since they will be left with one again very soon.
Or, they can go Lerk or set up WOL, which lets marines get more RTs and deny themselves of that vital 2nd hive, period
<chant>1.1! 1.1! 1.1! 1.1! 1.1! 1.1! 1.1! 1.1! 1.1! 1.1! 1.1! 1.1!
<chant>Flayra! Flayra! Flayra! Flayra!
Problem with lerks is that it takes 2 lerks or so to take down a jp hmger with health spam on him.
If you have 2 jetpack hmgs, to take the guy down before the hive goes down you need 3 lerks or so, and the other skulks trying to get lucky bites.
Usually the marines have enough res to kit out 3 marines, and even if the first wave of attack fails, they usually have time for a 2nd attempt. And to not get a hive down in 2 attempts is rare.
On some maps jp hmg is more of a problem than others e.g eclipse, which is horribly marine biased ATM.
However all shall be adressed in 1.1 and thank god for that.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I recently checked the stats for my clan's server. I found that Aliens have won 80% of all games in the last two weeks. <i>Eighty percent</i>.
Yes, because the nature of the jet pack and heavy machine gun rush is putting all your resources towards that to do it soon enough to effectively cancel out any chance on the part of the Kharaa to counter with morphs or new abilities. What is the minimum you can lay down as a commander to effectively get JP and HMG so you can "rush"? I doubt this includes a whole lot of automated defences and as soon as you have marines leaving the base from guard duty boredom, restlessness, and expansion to new resources, your player power becomes spread out and it doesn't take much for the Kharaa to circumvent the outer perimeter and attack from multiple directions. Even without that well communicated scenario taking advantage of a thin defense, even large numbers of skulks in one area can close on marines pronto. Destroying any buildings can devestate their progress when the focus is solely on getting the JP/HMG weapon load out ASAP. Any marine commander that has had their base gutted will let you know that they _have_ to move the base to continue rooting out the infestation, distracting him/her from now isolated JP/HMG marines. Even if the JP/HMG marines take down the original hive, a busy gorge could have enough resources for the second hive at the 5 minute mark specified before in this thread. This would mean the JP/HMG marine would have no reinforcements coming and be running low on ammo, while the Kharaa should be on their way to establishing themselves again. Even good teams have trouble when only the lone ranger is left...
i like posting on this forum, but the whole balance/exploit issue is been beating worse than the bills in the super bowl.
As the only lerk I can fly around the hive in circles and take out 2-3 JPs before one of them manages to shoot me down IF they manage...it's not a matter of needing several lerks, or this and that, it's a matter or using some skill and strategy, or wait for them to fall, since most do, and skulk them, or climb the hive and jump off it at em... <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> = <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes, because the nature of the jet pack and heavy machine gun rush is putting all your resources towards that to do it soon enough to effectively cancel out any chance on the part of the Kharaa to counter with morphs or new abilities. What is the minimum you can lay down as a commander to effectively get JP and HMG so you can "rush"? I doubt this includes a whole lot of automated defences <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Minimum JP rush is 276 resources (IP, armory, arms lab, armor upgrade, RT, RT, armory upgrade, weapon upgrade, prototype lab, jetpack research). Assuming an average of 3 res nodes in an 8v8 game, this is 58 res/min and so the 176 res needed for this takes 3 minutes. One more minute to equip the jetpackers, and the jetpackers will hit the hive at the 5-6 minute mark.
The five minute mark is also when a single gorge is building the second RT. Average skulk resources are at about 25.
Now, on some maps the minimum defense works well. Eclipse seems to be designed for this, with horseshoe and station access also guarding the only two ways into the base, and also being reasonably close for marines at the outposts to fall back into the base quickly enough, if one outpost is overwhelmed.
On other maps, you will need the second IP, a couple of minepacks, maybe OBS+MT, which will delay the attack by several minutes.
18 players? That means at least 17 players on the aliens side... that gives 35 total players minimum... funny thing that, I thought the player limit was 32.
If there were 18 marines and 14 aliens, (32 total) then its team balance thats the problem. Also, bigger games screw up the dynamic of NS.
About marine defense. Mines, Mines, MINES! Always, ALWAYS mine your IP and ARMORY to the teeth!
Edit: the 19 should be 18
If your team is not getting resources very quickly then killing the hives with HMGs and Jetpacks works and in my eyes as long as 1 fade or onos can take out an undefended marine base then i don't see why the JP rush isn't "proper"
No really, I think the JP is really messing up the game atm. There is a failsafe strategy in a big game > 18 players for the marines. Cap 3 res, put soldiers defending them, now don't tell an organized skulk attack will take them out because they won't, remember concentrated firepower? Tech to JP HMG usually take 5 mins at maximum and wack the hive (you only need 1 JP HMG to kill it but goes faster with many). This isn't the main problem the main problem is the skulks have no chance against a JP especially not in a big room. Something needs to be done, for now you can only play on smaller servers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And while they secure those nodes rush in, or ambush them, or etc etc. Marines need a way to win to.
Try going for two rt first thing. It makes life a bit hard for the skulks at first, but it's often worth it in the end. You will also have enough res for people to go lerk.
Question is, if the commander knows how to jetpack hmg rush, then what would his win percentage be?
Mine would be about 80 percent if i was commanding and had ONE good marine on my team and a few average ones. Unless aliens are very organised and skilled.
In clan matches, marines have distinct advantages on certain maps, but not all, which is good.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will repeat myself. THERE IS NO TIME TO BUILD ANY DEFENSES AT THE HIVE! Correctly done, the jetpackers will hit the hive at about the time the first gorge builds the second resource tower (~6 minute point with 2 jetpackers in an 8v8 game. Faster in larger games).
If the gorge foregoes the second restower, he will be able to build about two chambers instead of the 2nd restower by the time the HMG toting jetpackers arrive. Maybe three. Just barely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Aliens still win 80% of the public games that i play, marine victories are only due to luck, or a skilled commander with a skilled team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. A commander that knows the JP rush don't really need to be all that skilled, and neither does his marines. That aliens win is more an indication that the commander didn't use a JP rush. Or a mine rush. Or a HMG rush. Or any other rush that relies on the very weak early game skulks and their limited spawn rate.
To be completely honest as a commander I only use the Tech Rush if the Marines have been losing alot. <i>Even though I know it is less efficient</i> I find the PG Rush/Hive Lockdown to be the best strategy for an exciting, action-packed, medium length game. If you find yourself with two decent teamplaying teams (And on pubs you can really only expect decent teamplay most of the time) the PG Rush/Hive Lockdown is a really exciting 30-45min fight.
Funny how the numbers <b>1.1</b> can make a bunch of people so excited...
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I dont like the rush. Its a bit broken now. Just my OPINON. I'm glad we are all expressing ours here, but lets not get too excited and just let the devs do their thing. Cool? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
S
Believe me or not i could care less because i have seen it done. 3 times in a row in fact on NS bast. If you look at the stratagy there is really no differance, both hit the enemy before they can get set up. Before 1.04 (i think) the marines could do the same to the hive because it started at zero life. If you ask me, then good for the commander if he can get enough resources to put up 1 or 2 inf portals (22 res each) an armory (25 or so i forget) an arms lab (45) and a prototype lab (45), reseach jetpacks (25 i think) wait long enough for it to finish, dish out say 6 HMGs (25 each) and 6 Jetpacks (9 each) so lets do the math here. (Of course this is assuming we are playing on a marine team of 7 players)
2 Inf portals
Armory
Arms Lab
Prototype Lab
research
6 HMGs
and 6 jetpacks +
--------------------------------
388 Resources
Ok my numbers may be a bit off, i don't command much, however this is just the bare minimum. Nothing to fall back on at all if your team fails because a counter attack/skulk rush will finish your base off. That is 288 resources you have to earn because the team starts off with 100.
I play NS a lot. 2 or 3 times a night on average. I have seen few successful HMG/JP rushes, to the commanders <b>and</b> players that pull it off. Good for you, your days are numbered.
This is not a flame, just an argument. Feel free to argue back just keep flaming to a minimum. (This is a discussion not a fight)
/me mocks your marine team relentlessly.
Armory
Arms Lab
Prototype Lab
research
6 HMGs
and 6 jetpacks +
--------------------------------
388 Resources <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But, you do not need 6 Marines with HMG + JP to take down a hive.
Often, one marine is enough, or two if the aliens can get themselves organised.
2 IPs
Armoury
Arms Lab (+Lvl.1 - Armour and Guns)
Mines (<3 Packs total)
Proto Lab (JPs)
4 JPs
2 HMGs
And usually I'll have between 4-5 nodes on the map. (Rises and dips based on Alien activity)
that's weird, but it's the same here.. It's like... ooooh... Flayra... *rolls out red carpet in front of him*
FLAYRA YOURE MY HERO <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
They are betting everything on their ability to keep the nodes and prot lab safe.
If they cannot keep the nodes or prot lab safe they have no upgrades for their stock equip and are in serious trouble.
This is why most commanders do not go for streight HMG/JP rush but instead prefer to get themselves MT and or level 1 armour / weap upgrades
If you're doing it 'propperly' remember to include cycling the arms lab.
BlueGhost
IP
Armoury
Node
Node
Armslab
ProtLab
Upgrade Armoury
Cycle ArmsLab
Upgrade to JP
/me mocks your marine team relentlessly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Concur must I. The Marine team is laughably bad if they get killed by a skulk rush. With no carpace one marine can take 2 skulks with one lmg clip and another with pistol.
The matter then becomes a debate as to whether or not the powers that be would like to balance the game in favor of the more casual pub players, or the hard core clanners. I'm in favor of the latter myself.
I'd say even to nerf the marines a lil bit more, as a highly organized marine team right now is nigh on indestructable.