Align, I have never heard such a pile of utter bollocks.
Hm, read this if you are going to comment on 'exploits' and 'bugs' - any tournament player from any game of note will be happy if you take it to heart.
Bunnyhopping is unrealistic within context of the game of NS. More importantly, the creator decides EXACTLY what is appropriate for the game and has spoken against it. If it takes skill is irrelevant. It takes skill to write a dll hook for halflife (although not an appreciable amount IMHO). Skill does not justify an action. Careful with your selective logic ppl. If you are going to try to "reason" bunnyhopping pro's and con's, at least try to appear diligent in your analysis.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, the argument does hold some water, because extreme speed boosts just screw gameplay up too much. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's only 1/2 of it. The other half is that "Flay didnt have the time to disable bunnyhopping in a fair way and left it alone in favor of working on more important issues."
Flayra himself said it was an exploit. Regardless of what you guys say or any arguements it IS an exploit for the simple fact that he said it is. Your argument could be said about Duping items in Diablo2 (which ruined the game for many people)
Why is Duping an exploit? Because it gives a player an unfair advantage. Why don't you Dupe yourself and take down that advantage? Because Duping is an exploit, and I am morally opposed to exploits.
If the Devs thought rocket jumping was an exploit they would have stoped rockets from affecting you movement-wise. They didn't because they thought it was acceptable. The NS dev team has deemed BunnyHoping not acceptable and are removing it.
I am faster than any bunnyhoping skulk because i know the best shortcuts. Its fun seing a bunnyhopping skulk infront of you and at the next corner you appear infront of it.
it all boils down to a fight between tfc and cs players tbh
all the leet, cool and old skool tfc players love to ahve a game with some kind of bhopin in
and all the freaking lame bed wetting cs players want it taken out cos they are noobs and forgot how to do it....
FO go back to your hax and random head shots... come back when you can hh conc form balc to balc and then bhop past the tsp solly conc at bsp down to short grab the flag. conc down the long making it look like you are going down the short. bbhop past himrun up the top chuck the flag so it out side onto the first level then get killed by the tsp solly with a gren or rocket shoty combo. bunny hopin saves lives but it cant win you the game
<!--QuoteBegin--phatteh+Jan 19 2003, 10:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (phatteh @ Jan 19 2003, 10:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it all boils down to a fight between tfc and cs players tbh
all the leet, cool and old skool tfc players love to ahve a game with some kind of bhopin in
and all the freaking lame bed wetting cs players want it taken out cos they are noobs and forgot how to do it....
FO go back to your hax and random head shots... come back when you can hh conc form balc to balc and then bhop past the tsp solly conc at bsp down to short grab the flag. conc down the long making it look like you are going down the short. bbhop past himrun up the top chuck the flag so it out side onto the first level then get killed by the tsp solly with a gren or rocket shoty combo. bunny hopin saves lives but it cant win you the game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> An interesting point, but since it's not in english I don't think most people will get it.
uhhh....I was a long time player of TFC and I hated bunnyhopping. I cant think of many ppl that liked it. Most of the ppl that I knew and/or played with in the TFC scene didnt like it either. I dont know where you come off saying TFCers are pro bhing. If anything I think you got it backwards.
start to slag off bhopers... call um noobs say its a bug tell um it should be taken out say it takes no skill binding the mouse wheel to jump... and i bet they will laf and tell you to fo tbh <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Mystiqq+Jan 12 2003, 02:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mystiqq @ Jan 12 2003, 02:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->so its gonna be <img src='http://www.animationlibrary.com/Animation11/Animals/Rabbits/Little_rabbit_3.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'> -> <img src='http://www.animationlibrary.com/Animation11/Animals/Rabbits/Little_rabbit_2.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now that is funny...but anyway. Bhoping through skill, i.e. speeding up your movement to get around the map faster, doesn't seem to be the problem, it sounds like in flayra post, to me at least,- i will quote for those who didn't catch it
"I should've realized that most people would be confused by this change. Most people won't even notice the bunny-hopping change. The people that will notice it, are the people that are good at whipping around the level at ultra-high speeds, while not making any footstep sounds. This is why it's an exploit.
People will still be able to jump a lot, but they won't be moving faster or making any less noise. "
To me it sounds like people were jumping around without making noise. I can slightly bhop-slightly as in i can get some speed but usually hit a way, have to change direction, or whatever and i stop. But I DO make noise and lots of it. I wonder if this will cover scripted bhopers. AS that doesn't take any skill, it just takes a change in your config.
<!--QuoteBegin--Terminotaur+Jan 19 2003, 02:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Terminotaur @ Jan 19 2003, 02:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Teufel, you're really out of it. 99.5% of TFC players in the upper leagues bhop and seem to consider it an integral part of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really out of it? Mebbe with leagues and all but it has been my expierence only around 10-15%(<----my own guesstimate) of the players on pubs appreciate bhopping. Whenever a bher shows up on a server everyone groans. Integral part of the game? Hmmm thats why Valve did all they could to remove it then eh?
the speed limit in witch you can bhop at can be changed. as it is much higher in ns than tfc. and tbh sure if you go on by 2fort only 32 player server with 7 "Player"s then sure your not going to find any bhopin but if you goto the sas server LBU server 187 or any f*ckin server with a custom map on you'll defo see some bhopin.
<!--QuoteBegin--phatteh+Jan 19 2003, 02:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (phatteh @ Jan 19 2003, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it all boils down to a fight between tfc and cs players tbh
all the leet, cool and old skool tfc players love to ahve a game with some kind of bhopin in
and all the freaking lame bed wetting cs players want it taken out cos they are noobs and forgot how to do it....
FO go back to your hax and random head shots... come back when you can hh conc form balc to balc and then bhop past the tsp solly conc at bsp down to short grab the flag. conc down the long making it look like you are going down the short. bbhop past himrun up the top chuck the flag so it out side onto the first level then get killed by the tsp solly with a gren or rocket shoty combo. bunny hopin saves lives but it cant win you the game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Was ist los mit dir? Qué? Ni cul ni tête! Urusai, Kono Bakayaro! Tva-ya mama sa-seet kor-rov-on-ni-ye hoy-ee! Salta gamisou! She-pa-nom! What? Poq Gai! Ben zonah! No me interesso un cazzo! Metete un palo por el culo! Mach es dir selber! Sorry?
You are by far the best example for parents to restrict their kids computer time. Its just a game folks, when it starts to destroy your vocabulary GET SOME FRESH AIR!
You summarized my thoughts rather well engy, allow me to make a few additions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Third, while you are bunnyhopping, the direction that you are looking is very important, so you can't aim at something and continue bunnyhopping at the same time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not entirely true, while most people only bunnyhop using a strafe axis (which requires you to look in the direction of your motion while turning) there's no reason you can't turn on any axis you wish, allowing you to fix your view at any direction you want relative to your motion. You probably already understand how this works, but i felt it was a good addition to the point. If you transition between axis as you turn you can technically aim in any direction you like while turning in any direction you like. Of course, to do this well requires an insane amount of skill and practice, and in general most people can only do this to a very limited degree - kind of links back to your comments about scripting :)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'll agree with you that it is unrealistic, however I hold a strong opinion that realism should take a backseat to gameplay/fun in the majority of circumstances. Once you play for a while you just accept NS for what it is, and the "atmosphere" and the "realism" just aren't there anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*nod* Realisim is a gimmick with limited appeal, it might draw in a few extra players if you gave the marine weapons real gun names, but its the game itself that those players will stick around for, not the gimmicks. At least, unless your game is called counter-strike.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bunnyhopping is an exploit that was not intended by the developers and should therefore be removed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never use the word exploit, its a ridiculous term generally used by people who don't have a real argument. There is no good definition of what an exploit is, the phrase just gets slapped on something that people dislike. Whenever the term "exploit" is used im reminded of the middle ages.... "She's a witch, burn her!". People conviniently ignore everything else that should technically be considered an exploit under the weak definitions that they provide. Instead of exploit and game feature, i simply categorize things into elements that benefit gameplay and elements that don't. How do you decide which do and which don't? You debate the merits of each, after extensive use. Now suddenly you have to prove she's a witch instead of just rallying an angry mob and starting the fire.
A game developer creates a game, and has a vision of how everything will work - but the game developer can never forsee everything that the players will discover in the game. Chances are, once the clan players get their fingers into the game and start working out whats really the most effective way to play, the game probably turns out to play much differently to how the developer envisioned. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily, a developer can't see all the possible strategies, tricks and tactics that will eventually evolve, but just because these elements are not intended doesn't mean they are bad for the game. If you define an exploit as anything the developer didn't envision, then the vast majority of clan strategies, all the little tricks you pride yourself on knowing and the cunning tactics you came up with are probably exploits.
The console command that lets an alien run around as a marine model is an unintended game element. It's easy to argue that it is also a game element that does not benefit the game - hence it should be removed.
The ability to build an armoury near the CC on hera, allowing you to drop a welder through the wall for a player in cargo to weld the door is an unintended game element. Are you going to scream exploit and try to get it removed, or are you going to weigh its merit as if it were a game feature and decide on its value to the game?
People use the word exploit as if the right thing to do in the circumstance is simple and obvious. "Its an exploit, so it has to be removed", but this isnt the case. How many people would argue for/against the hera armoury trick? I'd wager it would be a pretty even split. But.... it's an exploit by your definitions. Now how about another example - blocking doorways/lifts with buildings. Flayra has said on the subject that he likes people to be creative: in otherwords this was not something he originally envisioned, an exploit. A tactic that players have discovered to be possible and effective. Now how many of you would argue for the "fixing" of this exploit, by making it impossible to block lifts or doorways? Not many.
Let me offer this statement...
Any game element, wether intended or unintended by the developer, has the same starting value - in terms of its effects on the gameplay. Untill you've discussed the merits of 2 elements, an unintended element is no more or less desirable than an intended one. If Street Fighter's complex combo system had been removed by capcom the moment something that they didn't intend had been discovered, it would not have been the landmark game that it was. Capcom, and their userbase embraced the "exploits" which they felt added to the gameplay, and created the definative fighting game series. The exploits of the early versions are now the highlighted features of the later games. Capcom, or the will of the community, only removed/boycotted the elements which they felt harmed the game.
This isnt my pro-hopping argument, it's my anti-"I don't have any real points but bunnyhopping is an exploit!!11" argument. To anyone who defines an exploit as something which gives you an unfair advantage - there is no such thing as an unfair advantage. Everything from wallhacks to getting a high payed job and buying a faster PC is available to everybody. If the aliens become obscenely powerful, everyone has the option of playing aliens. In a clan match you play 1 round as each race - no matter what happens the game is always 'fair'. The only thing which makes 2 hive sieges on 1 TF in eclipse different to an aimbot/wallhack is its merit as a gameplay element. Both are perfectly fair.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Why is bunnyhopping an exploit?</b> Because it gives a player an unfair advantage. Why don't you bunnyhop yourself and take down that advantage? <b>Because bunnyhopping is an exploit</b>, and I am morally opposed to exploits. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I found this absolutely hilarious.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Having bunnyhopping as a feature would make the learning curve too high for NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is one of the few intelligent counter arguments on the subject, there are 2 things to debate here. The first is wether a steep learning curve is better or worse for a game. This is mainly opinion based and depends wether you want to attract hordes of tourist players who like to look at pretty colours and bog off to another mod a week later, or if you want to attract a smaller number of dedicated players who take the mod seriously and explore every nook and cranny of it to really appreciate the depth of the game. If i sound somewhat biased on that opinion based arguement, its because i am.
The second thing to discuss is wether the presence of bunnyhopping, in its present form, or with the suggest changes you made really has that much of an effect on NS that it drastically changes the learning curve. Personnally i think otherwise, as i don't believe its necessary for an average player to learn the skill. In fact, by the time you get to such a high level that the ability to hop is a serious advantage, you're only dealing with players who are skilled enough to be able to perform it. Note that im only referring to 'classical' hopping, rather than the silent incarnation. I've discussed the merits of silent hopping before and decided that i don't think it's a good idea to have it in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Changes I'd like to see: 1) If you are in the air, are a marine, and are facing more than 90 degrees away from the direction you are moving, then you should be slowed down to normal backwards-moving pace. (This would fix the hopping retreat problem discussed earlier) 2) You should make noise if you jump while crouched. (This would fix the stealth-bunnyhopping discussed earlier) 3) Maybe the increase speed cap should be changed from 70% to 40% or something around there. (This would tone down bunnyhopping enough to not make it too big of an advantage, but still let people use their skill and have fun) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given control of the mod, the only point i would personnally implement would be number 2), but in the interests of compromise some hopping is better than 0 hopping. I am certainly in the same camp as you regarding the use of hopping, i find it more enjoyable to have some form of skilled movement i can use to get from A to B rather than simply holding +forward. When i try to cover a distance quickly, bunnyhopping places my speed directly into my hands, i know that the better i hop, the faster i can cover the distance. If i pull all my turns perfectly, i'll be there slightly faster than if my movement is sloppy and imprecise. Just holding down a button to cross a distance, when i really want to get there as quickly as possible is incredibly frustrating. Sitting there, finger on mouse2 urging the damn thing to go faster but knowing there is nothing you can do at all to change the situation seriously turns me off. I like being in control of my movement, and i like knowing that if i get there a second too late to save the TF it was my fault, not the fault of some restriction imposed on me that i can do nothing about.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Time for people to get over it and just play <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just got back from a thread where i argued why the "shut up and play" comment was so moronic. I'd rather not repeat all of that, but just for you allow me to provide an example. In 1.03 aliens can change their model to that of a marine, people can speed hack and wallhack, people can bunnyhop silently backwards (OH NOS). Were you to complain about any of that, i could quite easily tell you to "shut up and play". Infact as the current public release of NS is 1.03, "shut up and play" is a pro-hopping argument. So if you would kindly take your own advice, shut up and get hopping.
Finally to whoever it was that said something about hopping having a greater effect in NS than in TFC, please don't spout crap out of thin air. Did you even try and test it? Bunnyhopping with a soldier (rough approximation of regular marine movement speed) gives you a final hop speed which is the same or faster than a NS marine, prior to the limiter kicking in. Not only that, but hopping in TFC is significantly more useful simply because of the gamestyle, which rewards speed over caution.
Ok, this has been said so often (by me, others, Playertesters, Developers, Flayra himself...) but since there are still lots of people around who do not understand it i try it another time, VEEEERY slowly...
First of all let me explain what (at least in my oppinion) is an exploit. An exploit is if you abuse (another word for exploit) bugs in the game engine which were never intended. So using aimbots, wallhacks etc is not an exploit because you do not use in game mechanics but 3rd party programs to do it. Exploits are for example the fixed alien resource donation bug. Aliens could "donate" resources to the gorge with going to readyroom and back again. This was obviously never intended because if the developers would have wanted the aliens to donate resources they would have either given them a donation option in the menu or a resource system like the marines. Now lets see what bunnyhopping does (with bunnyhopping i refer to both the one to increase speed and the silent one). It uses a bug in the game engine to increase speed by jumping/strafing in a certain way. Was this intended by the developers of halflife or any of its mods? I doubt this very much or do you know adventures where you can skip parts with pressing 11 keys at once (impressive skill with only 10 fingers, you should get a reward for it in adventures) or car racing games where your speed doubles when you enter "i am a leet guy" in under 1 second (that would require quite some typing skill, why doesn't it help you in this car racing game?). Conclusion: If you want to practice skills, better practice some which do not abuse bugs, because bugs will get fixed sooner or later and just because you wasted half of your life in mastering this skill it is no valid argument to leave a bug in the game. If you want to be good in a fps game practice aiming, dodging, advancing in groups etc but not jumping around like mad to gain speed due to a bug.
So is bunnyhopping a skill? Of course it is. Is bunnyhopping a fps skill? Of course it is not (it won't help you in any reasonable fps since it has nothing to do with an fps at all). Is bunnyhopping an exploit? Of course it is, you abuse a game bug to get an advantage. Should bunnyhopping be removed? In my oppinion yes, it is a skill that has nothing to do with "the spirit" of an fps game and if i play an fps i do not want to require cooking, crochet or golfing skills skills as well, simply because THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH FPS!!! (can't say this often enough since it seems to be soo hard to understand).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First of all let me explain what (at least in my oppinion) is an exploit. An exploit is if you abuse (another word for exploit) bugs in the game engine which were never intended. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And by that definition, hitting something through a wall with a grenade is an exploit. Ever turned in the air? Exploit. Ever crouched in a vent as marine? Exploit. What about upgraded carapace as an alien? Exploit. Got a high framerate? Exploit. (do a bit of research into the quake engines if you don't understand that one) Rocket jumping? Exploit. Jumped while on a ramp in quake 1? Exploit.
The above aren't intended, although some of them shouldn't be classified as "bugs", neither should hopping. The physics engine works in the way it written to work, it just so happens that the developers didn't forsee exactly how the engine could be used. The developers i'm referring to here are Id software. Hopping was created with the quake 1 physics system, along with rocket jumping, trimping, air control etc. All of these tricks were known prior to HL's release. Valve had full knowledge of how the physics system could be used before they released HL. And since then they have even adjusted the system specifically to change the functionality of hopping. How you can call it a bug after that i have no idea. The maximum speed cap could have been set at whatever valve wanted to set it at, they made the decision to cap it at its current potency. Still screaming exploit?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is bunnyhopping a fps skill? Of course it is not (it won't help you in any reasonable fps since it has nothing to do with an fps at all). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gee, then i guess quake 1, 2 and 3, the original TF, TFC, Q3F, oldskool CS, JK2, even the current incarnation of Doom 3 are all <b>unreasonable</b>?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH FPS!!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says who? You? If you say they don't, and i say they do, who is right? Are you the all mighty first person shooter god?
The first online shooter i ever played was QW. Hopping, trimping, rocket jumping, tight control and every possible physics trick you can squeeze out of the engine is an integral part of that game. Accepted and even embraced by the community. Considering pretty much every modern shooter owes most of its existence to Quake, where do you get the idea that hopping has nothing to do with FPS's? HL doesn't just take its inspiration from Q1, it basically pinches half of the code as well, which is the reason we're here having a conversation about HL hopping.
There is no rulebook will tells you what should be in a game, there is no 'way it was meant to be'.
<!--QuoteBegin--Teepo+Jan 19 2003, 06:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teepo @ Jan 19 2003, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You guys are forgetting the most Importiant part.
Flayra himself said it was an exploit. Regardless of what you guys say or any arguements it IS an exploit for the simple fact that he said it is. Your argument could be said about Duping items in Diablo2 (which ruined the game for many people)
Why is Duping an exploit? Because it gives a player an unfair advantage. Why don't you Dupe yourself and take down that advantage? Because Duping is an exploit, and I am morally opposed to exploits.
If the Devs thought rocket jumping was an exploit they would have stoped rockets from affecting you movement-wise. They didn't because they thought it was acceptable. The NS dev team has deemed BunnyHoping not acceptable and are removing it.
You are simply justifing cheating nothing more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was merely saying with that example, and my argument, that you're going to have to do more than say "it gives you an advantage and was not intended" to say it's an exploit. In my opinion, you're going to have to establish one of the following:
1) The tactic is not counterable 2) The tactic unfavorably changes gameplay
Also, things like crashing the server or lagging everyone out isn't really an exploit, it's just being stupid and malicious.
In the duping case, #2 applies, because instead of looking for items, you just dupe, and it gives you a huge advantage for something you don't work for. If you modify bunnyhopping in the way I suggested earlier, then I don't think bunnyhopping meets any of these criteria.
For fun, lets look at some examples of exploits. The bug where an alien can turn into a marine gives you a huge advantage, is not counterable by the marines, and hurts teamplay. That is why the bug is an exploit, and <i>not</i> because it wasn't intended by the developer. Also, the resource donation thing. It's not an exploit because "if flay wanted aliens to donate resources he would have make a resource donation option in the menu", it's an exploit because it gives the aliens an uncounterable advantage ( faster hives and resource towers ), and skews gameplay too much to remedy simply. Another, getting extra mines from the armory. Having an infinite amount of mines screws up gameplay, and the aliens can't have an infinite amount of webs early in the game.
If a tactic is clearly not intended by the developer, that may be an <i>indication</i> that the tactic might be an exploit, but by no extent does it mean that it <i>is</i> an exploit. For people that know something about logical arguments:
Exploit implies not intended by devs
does <b>not</b> mean
not intentended by devs implies exploit
You can't just take the converse of an implication.
Also, I think Flayra knows what he's dealing with and just thinks that <i>some</i> aspects of bunnyhopping are exploits. It wouldn't be impossible for Flayra to change bunnyhopping in a way very similar to what I suggested.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Can this topic please die?
1) NS is not Quake, or HL, or Quake 2, or CS, or TFC, or anything except NS.
2) What is perfectly acceptable in one may not be acceptable in the other; it is the decision of the developer of that particular game.
3) Flayra has already said that bunnyhopping to gain speed - whether it be normally, moving backwards, or crouch-bunnyhopping - is not an intended element of NS and will be removed in 1.1.
4) Flayra has also said that he has no intentions right now of removing the ability to jump repeatedly to avoid attacks.
I think that's really all that needs to be said about this. LET IT DIE.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) The tactic is not counterable 2) The tactic unfavorably changes gameplay
if flay wanted aliens to donate resources he would have make a resource donation option in the menu", it's an exploit because it gives the aliens an uncounterable advantage
getting extra mines from the armory. Having an infinite amount of mines screws up gameplay, and the aliens can't have an infinite amount of webs early in the game.
All though Bunny Hopping IS counterable so are both your examples. You can counter Alien Donation by rushing RTs near the hive and killing the gorge. Also they may be able to get a hive up faster but they will get fades just as fast (because they have to go from 0 instead of 33 to get to 54 for fades). And Unlimited marine mines in base? A Fade's acid rocket could kill every marine in the base if aimed correctly, hardly uncounterable.
With Bunnyhoping Skulks can rush the marine spawn faster than intended potently killing marines before they even get IPs up and Marines can Gain two hives faster than intended.
Does two wrong make a right? No
And in the Opinion of myself, many others and the Dev team they believe BHing to unfavorably alter the gameplay.
Your defintion of an exploit is off which means so is your basis of your arguement. Flames?
<!--QuoteBegin--Kilmster+Jan 11 2003, 11:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kilmster @ Jan 11 2003, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't quite see what the problem is; they put in anti-bhop code in cs, firearms, DoD, and soon to be NS.
CS, firearms, and DoD all have a playerbase; I don't see how anti-exploit code is going to effect NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> DoD doesn't have anti-bhop code...it has stamina <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> You can still airaccelerate around corners and obstacles and things of the sort.
And for the record CS completely newb'd out bhopping unless you're going downhill - I was a good bhopper back in the day before they took it out of there and to me it ruined the fun of the game...which is partially why I stopped playing.
As long as NS doesn't make you go super slow and come to a halt when you're bhoping that's cool, because you <b>should</b> be able to hop around and "prance like a schoolgirl" if you please! If most of you people look at the changes you want to employ and think about them with an unbiased opinion you might see the error of your ways and #SUYF <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Don't do or propose stuff that will nerf NS - that's why CS is so lame now because newbs wanted to get stuff changed because they could not do it and felt at a severe disadvantage. The fact of the matter here is that bunny hopping is a <u>SKILL</u> that has to be acquired and practiced to some extent to be good at. I don't mind reducing the max speed you can achieve with it as long as it doesn't make us slow down to a creep.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> </span> OWNED! <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'> </span>considering that people that can bhop including myself have been playing HL mods way before the average NS player has
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And by that definition, hitting something through a wall with a grenade is an exploit. Ever turned in the air? Exploit. Ever crouched in a vent as marine? Exploit. What about upgraded carapace as an alien? Exploit. Got a high framerate? Exploit. (do a bit of research into the quake engines if you don't understand that one) Rocket jumping? Exploit. Jumped while on a ramp in quake 1? Exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you are right, all these are exploits (well, with carapace i am not sure what you mean). Just that most of them can not be fixed as easily as bhopping. Do you really think marines beeing invulnerable from frontal attacks while crouching is wanted by the developers? The only reason they still are is that there are bugs which are easy to fix and bugs which aren't, the later ones can take quite some time (ever heared of a program called windows?). Especially if they are classified as minor bugs and the devs do not think of it as critical to fix them (turn in air, grenades hitting through walls).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Valve had full knowledge of how the physics system could be used before they released HL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Knowledge of an existing bug does not mean that it is intended. Valve is a company which wants to make money. Copy&pasting most of the parts of the quake engine is much cheaper in developing costs than fixing a bug that could cause other unwanted sideeffects. Just because they decided not to mess around with the quake engine does not mean that they thought that getting faster for hopping around like an idiot is an integral and importaint part of any fps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gee, then i guess quake 1, 2 and 3, the original TF, TFC, Q3F, oldskool CS, JK2, even the current incarnation of Doom 3 are all unreasonable?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Says who? You? If you say they don't, and i say they do, who is right? Are you the all mighty first person shooter god?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Common sense says that (the thing you obviously lack at). If you would need a drivers licence to play ns effectively it would not have to do anything with an fps either and i am sure you would not try to argue about that. Read the manual of ANY fps and you will never find a text like "and if you want to increase your running speed, just strafejump while alternating the direction you are facing, because that is how you move really fast in fps". You might get tips for aiming, for taking cover, advancing in groups etc. None will tell you how to bunnyjump (or how to drive a car).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The first online shooter i ever played was QW. Hopping, trimping, rocket jumping, tight control and every possible physics trick you can squeeze out of the engine is an integral part of that game. Accepted and even embraced by the community. Considering pretty much every modern shooter owes most of its existence to Quake, where do you get the idea that hopping has nothing to do with FPS's? HL doesn't just take its inspiration from Q1, it basically pinches half of the code as well, which is the reason we're here having a conversation about HL hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because id happened to make the first fps this does not mean all the bugs they created as well are carved in stone as "this belongs to an fps". fps is what its name says, a SHOOTER, not a fancy giana sisters jump and run game. Of course there are some "beat them up" approaches to fps like tfc where you will get "special moves" in form of bhopping and rocketjumping but they have not very much to do with fps anymore. But thankfully Flayra, maybe not the allmighty fps god but at least the allmighty ns god, wants a more tactical approach in ns. And so do all modern fps based on an own engine and even most of the newer mods based on the bugged quake engine. Must have a reason, doesn't it? Especially if you think of how much time those mod designers waste to kill a bug that you think is an integral part of any fps.
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueGhost+Jan 19 2003, 01:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueGhost @ Jan 19 2003, 01:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As it is now: A good level 3 cara skulk can kill a good 'normal' marine if he: 1) knows the layout 2) Isn't ambushed
A group of marines in formation can annihilate anything but a serious ambush from multiple skulks, however the commander can allow them to survive this aswell by the use of scan.
An exploiting marine who B-hops silently gives the skulk no warning of the approaching marine. As the silent marine passes the skulks hiding place it drops down significanly behind him (because it couldn't pre-empt due to the lack of noise and the marine is moving faster than normal). The silent marine has no problem hearing the skulk, he flips round holds down his 'b-hop backwards' key and continues to accelerate away from mr skulk while shooting him'
He has no problem hitting mr skulk, 'muzzle flash? what muzzle flash?'
Anyone else feel this adds to the game?
BlueGhost<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> you cant bhop backwards moron but you can jump backwards at a faster then normal rate end.
<!--QuoteBegin--Boiscour35+Jan 11 2003, 11:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boiscour35 @ Jan 11 2003, 11:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bunny Hopping is ridiculous. I don't know why NS was released with it possible to do this. I'm not sure how I stand about marines jumping around to avoid combat, but I KNOW that bunny hopping should not be in the game. It circumvents the set marine movement speed, makes them harder to hit than the game is meant to allow them to be, and removes realism. It's not an "advanced technique," it's an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen, bunny hopping is stupid and takes away from the game. Granted an occassional one is alright, but I've seen so many people exploit it. Its just not right, and I'm upset that they won't fix the hitboxes on it. And lets get real, granted this is a sci-fi game, but a marine jumping around a skulk?
<!--QuoteBegin--skulkswerenerfed+Jan 20 2003, 08:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (skulkswerenerfed @ Jan 20 2003, 08:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->all flayra is doing is dumbing down the game as we've seen in cs throughout the betas
I've never seen anyone bunny hop besides myself and other upc members<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> [Laugh]
CS was dumbed-down when it became popular and bunny-hoppy l33t players decided it should be played rambo style instead of the stealthy team-based play that it enjoyed in the early betas.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All though Bunny Hopping IS counterable so are both your examples. You can counter Alien Donation by rushing RTs near the hive and killing the gorge. Also they may be able to get a hive up faster but they will get fades just as fast (because they have to go from 0 instead of 33 to get to 54 for fades). And Unlimited marine mines in base? A Fade's acid rocket could kill every marine in the base if aimed correctly, hardly uncounterable.
With Bunnyhoping Skulks can rush the marine spawn faster than intended potently killing marines before they even get IPs up and Marines can Gain two hives faster than intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you force your marines to rush the RTs and kill the gorges, then you have wasted time that could have been used securing hives or RTs. Also, you could do that tactic anyway and make the aliens get a hive even slower than they would have, even if they weren't using the donation bug. And if you give the gorge resources, he can get resource towers up faster, resulting in a much higher income than would normally be attainable. In any event, the aliens do better using this bug, no matter what the marines do. This upsets game balance. About the mines, there is no 1-hive counter for them, and you can get mines within seconds of starting the game.
And even while bunnyhopping in its present form you can't get to the marine base before IP's are put up. This will be even less possible if as I suggested the speed increase cap be moved down to 40% or so.
And even though we know Flayra sees parts of bunnyhopping as exploits, we do not yet know what measures he will take to change it. It won't necessarily be a removal of it altogether.
Comments
Hm, read this if you are going to comment on 'exploits' and 'bugs' - any tournament player from any game of note will be happy if you take it to heart.
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Pla...yToWinPart1.htm</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, the argument does hold some water, because extreme speed boosts just screw gameplay up too much.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's only 1/2 of it. The other half is that "Flay didnt have the time to disable bunnyhopping in a fair way and left it alone in favor of working on more important issues."
Flayra himself said it was an exploit. Regardless of what you guys say or any arguements it IS an exploit for the simple fact that he said it is. Your argument could be said about Duping items in Diablo2 (which ruined the game for many people)
Why is Duping an exploit?
Because it gives a player an unfair advantage.
Why don't you Dupe yourself and take down that advantage?
Because Duping is an exploit, and I am morally opposed to exploits.
If the Devs thought rocket jumping was an exploit they would have stoped rockets from affecting you movement-wise. They didn't because they thought it was acceptable. The NS dev team has deemed BunnyHoping not acceptable and are removing it.
You are simply justifing cheating nothing more.
Its fun seing a bunnyhopping skulk infront of you and at the next corner you appear infront of it.
all the leet, cool and old skool tfc players love to ahve a game
with some kind of bhopin in
and all the freaking lame bed wetting cs players want it taken out
cos they are noobs and forgot how to do it....
FO go back to your hax and random head shots... come back
when you can hh conc form balc to balc and then bhop past the tsp solly
conc at bsp down to short grab the flag. conc down the long making it
look like you are going down the short. bbhop past himrun up the top
chuck the flag so it out side onto the first level then get killed by the tsp
solly with a gren or rocket shoty combo. bunny hopin saves lives but it
cant win you the game
all the leet, cool and old skool tfc players love to ahve a game
with some kind of bhopin in
and all the freaking lame bed wetting cs players want it taken out
cos they are noobs and forgot how to do it....
FO go back to your hax and random head shots... come back
when you can hh conc form balc to balc and then bhop past the tsp solly
conc at bsp down to short grab the flag. conc down the long making it
look like you are going down the short. bbhop past himrun up the top
chuck the flag so it out side onto the first level then get killed by the tsp
solly with a gren or rocket shoty combo. bunny hopin saves lives but it
cant win you the game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An interesting point, but since it's not in english I don't think most people will get it.
Server: [burstfire.net] - <|187|> Batty Server | Game: tfc | IP: 195.22.129.187:27015
Server: [burstfire.net] - SAS| Server | Game: tfc | IP: 195.22.129.12:27015
start to slag off bhopers... call um noobs say its a bug tell um it should be taken out say it takes no skill binding the mouse wheel to jump... and i bet they will laf and tell you to fo tbh <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that is funny...but anyway. Bhoping through skill, i.e. speeding up your movement to get around the map faster, doesn't seem to be the problem, it sounds like in flayra post, to me at least,- i will quote for those who didn't catch it
"I should've realized that most people would be confused by this change. Most people won't even notice the bunny-hopping change. The people that will notice it, are the people that are good at whipping around the level at ultra-high speeds, while not making any footstep sounds. This is why it's an exploit.
People will still be able to jump a lot, but they won't be moving faster or making any less noise. "
To me it sounds like people were jumping around without making noise. I can slightly bhop-slightly as in i can get some speed but usually hit a way, have to change direction, or whatever and i stop. But I DO make noise and lots of it. I wonder if this will cover scripted bhopers. AS that doesn't take any skill, it just takes a change in your config.
Skill=good.
cheating=bad.
bhop script=bad.
therefore...
bhop script=cheating.
Really out of it? Mebbe with leagues and all but it has been my expierence only around 10-15%(<----my own guesstimate) of the players on pubs appreciate bhopping. Whenever a bher shows up on a server everyone groans. Integral part of the game? Hmmm thats why Valve did all they could to remove it then eh?
all the leet, cool and old skool tfc players love to ahve a game
with some kind of bhopin in
and all the freaking lame bed wetting cs players want it taken out
cos they are noobs and forgot how to do it....
FO go back to your hax and random head shots... come back
when you can hh conc form balc to balc and then bhop past the tsp solly
conc at bsp down to short grab the flag. conc down the long making it
look like you are going down the short. bbhop past himrun up the top
chuck the flag so it out side onto the first level then get killed by the tsp
solly with a gren or rocket shoty combo. bunny hopin saves lives but it
cant win you the game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was ist los mit dir?
Qué?
Ni cul ni tête!
Urusai, Kono Bakayaro!
Tva-ya mama sa-seet kor-rov-on-ni-ye hoy-ee!
Salta gamisou!
She-pa-nom!
What?
Poq Gai!
Ben zonah!
No me interesso un cazzo!
Metete un palo por el culo!
Mach es dir selber!
Sorry?
You are by far the best example for parents to restrict their kids computer time.
Its just a game folks, when it starts to destroy your vocabulary GET SOME FRESH AIR!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Third, while you are bunnyhopping, the direction that you are looking is very important, so you can't aim at something and continue bunnyhopping at the same time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not entirely true, while most people only bunnyhop using a strafe axis (which requires you to look in the direction of your motion while turning) there's no reason you can't turn on any axis you wish, allowing you to fix your view at any direction you want relative to your motion. You probably already understand how this works, but i felt it was a good addition to the point. If you transition between axis as you turn you can technically aim in any direction you like while turning in any direction you like. Of course, to do this well requires an insane amount of skill and practice, and in general most people can only do this to a very limited degree - kind of links back to your comments about scripting :)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I'll agree with you that it is unrealistic, however I hold a strong opinion that realism should take a backseat to gameplay/fun in the majority of circumstances. Once you play for a while you just accept NS for what it is, and the "atmosphere" and the "realism" just aren't there anymore.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*nod*
Realisim is a gimmick with limited appeal, it might draw in a few extra players if you gave the marine weapons real gun names, but its the game itself that those players will stick around for, not the gimmicks. At least, unless your game is called counter-strike.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Bunnyhopping is an exploit that was not intended by the developers and should therefore be removed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never use the word exploit, its a ridiculous term generally used by people who don't have a real argument. There is no good definition of what an exploit is, the phrase just gets slapped on something that people dislike. Whenever the term "exploit" is used im reminded of the middle ages.... "She's a witch, burn her!". People conviniently ignore everything else that should technically be considered an exploit under the weak definitions that they provide. Instead of exploit and game feature, i simply categorize things into elements that benefit gameplay and elements that don't. How do you decide which do and which don't? You debate the merits of each, after extensive use. Now suddenly you have to prove she's a witch instead of just rallying an angry mob and starting the fire.
A game developer creates a game, and has a vision of how everything will work - but the game developer can never forsee everything that the players will discover in the game. Chances are, once the clan players get their fingers into the game and start working out whats really the most effective way to play, the game probably turns out to play much differently to how the developer envisioned. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily, a developer can't see all the possible strategies, tricks and tactics that will eventually evolve, but just because these elements are not intended doesn't mean they are bad for the game. If you define an exploit as anything the developer didn't envision, then the vast majority of clan strategies, all the little tricks you pride yourself on knowing and the cunning tactics you came up with are probably exploits.
The console command that lets an alien run around as a marine model is an unintended game element. It's easy to argue that it is also a game element that does not benefit the game - hence it should be removed.
The ability to build an armoury near the CC on hera, allowing you to drop a welder through the wall for a player in cargo to weld the door is an unintended game element. Are you going to scream exploit and try to get it removed, or are you going to weigh its merit as if it were a game feature and decide on its value to the game?
People use the word exploit as if the right thing to do in the circumstance is simple and obvious. "Its an exploit, so it has to be removed", but this isnt the case. How many people would argue for/against the hera armoury trick? I'd wager it would be a pretty even split. But.... it's an exploit by your definitions. Now how about another example - blocking doorways/lifts with buildings. Flayra has said on the subject that he likes people to be creative: in otherwords this was not something he originally envisioned, an exploit. A tactic that players have discovered to be possible and effective. Now how many of you would argue for the "fixing" of this exploit, by making it impossible to block lifts or doorways? Not many.
Let me offer this statement...
Any game element, wether intended or unintended by the developer, has the same starting value - in terms of its effects on the gameplay. Untill you've discussed the merits of 2 elements, an unintended element is no more or less desirable than an intended one. If Street Fighter's complex combo system had been removed by capcom the moment something that they didn't intend had been discovered, it would not have been the landmark game that it was. Capcom, and their userbase embraced the "exploits" which they felt added to the gameplay, and created the definative fighting game series. The exploits of the early versions are now the highlighted features of the later games. Capcom, or the will of the community, only removed/boycotted the elements which they felt harmed the game.
This isnt my pro-hopping argument, it's my anti-"I don't have any real points but bunnyhopping is an exploit!!11" argument. To anyone who defines an exploit as something which gives you an unfair advantage - there is no such thing as an unfair advantage. Everything from wallhacks to getting a high payed job and buying a faster PC is available to everybody. If the aliens become obscenely powerful, everyone has the option of playing aliens. In a clan match you play 1 round as each race - no matter what happens the game is always 'fair'. The only thing which makes 2 hive sieges on 1 TF in eclipse different to an aimbot/wallhack is its merit as a gameplay element. Both are perfectly fair.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>Why is bunnyhopping an exploit?</b>
Because it gives a player an unfair advantage.
Why don't you bunnyhop yourself and take down that advantage?
<b>Because bunnyhopping is an exploit</b>, and I am morally opposed to exploits.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I found this absolutely hilarious.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Having bunnyhopping as a feature would make the learning curve too high for NS.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is one of the few intelligent counter arguments on the subject, there are 2 things to debate here. The first is wether a steep learning curve is better or worse for a game. This is mainly opinion based and depends wether you want to attract hordes of tourist players who like to look at pretty colours and bog off to another mod a week later, or if you want to attract a smaller number of dedicated players who take the mod seriously and explore every nook and cranny of it to really appreciate the depth of the game. If i sound somewhat biased on that opinion based arguement, its because i am.
The second thing to discuss is wether the presence of bunnyhopping, in its present form, or with the suggest changes you made really has that much of an effect on NS that it drastically changes the learning curve. Personnally i think otherwise, as i don't believe its necessary for an average player to learn the skill. In fact, by the time you get to such a high level that the ability to hop is a serious advantage, you're only dealing with players who are skilled enough to be able to perform it. Note that im only referring to 'classical' hopping, rather than the silent incarnation. I've discussed the merits of silent hopping before and decided that i don't think it's a good idea to have it in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Changes I'd like to see:
1) If you are in the air, are a marine, and are facing more than 90 degrees away from the direction you are moving, then you should be slowed down to normal backwards-moving pace. (This would fix the hopping retreat problem discussed earlier)
2) You should make noise if you jump while crouched. (This would fix the stealth-bunnyhopping discussed earlier)
3) Maybe the increase speed cap should be changed from 70% to 40% or something around there. (This would tone down bunnyhopping enough to not make it too big of an advantage, but still let people use their skill and have fun)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given control of the mod, the only point i would personnally implement would be number 2), but in the interests of compromise some hopping is better than 0 hopping. I am certainly in the same camp as you regarding the use of hopping, i find it more enjoyable to have some form of skilled movement i can use to get from A to B rather than simply holding +forward. When i try to cover a distance quickly, bunnyhopping places my speed directly into my hands, i know that the better i hop, the faster i can cover the distance. If i pull all my turns perfectly, i'll be there slightly faster than if my movement is sloppy and imprecise. Just holding down a button to cross a distance, when i really want to get there as quickly as possible is incredibly frustrating. Sitting there, finger on mouse2 urging the damn thing to go faster but knowing there is nothing you can do at all to change the situation seriously turns me off. I like being in control of my movement, and i like knowing that if i get there a second too late to save the TF it was my fault, not the fault of some restriction imposed on me that i can do nothing about.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Time for people to get over it and just play
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I just got back from a thread where i argued why the "shut up and play" comment was so moronic. I'd rather not repeat all of that, but just for you allow me to provide an example. In 1.03 aliens can change their model to that of a marine, people can speed hack and wallhack, people can bunnyhop silently backwards (OH NOS). Were you to complain about any of that, i could quite easily tell you to "shut up and play". Infact as the current public release of NS is 1.03, "shut up and play" is a pro-hopping argument. So if you would kindly take your own advice, shut up and get hopping.
Finally to whoever it was that said something about hopping having a greater effect in NS than in TFC, please don't spout crap out of thin air. Did you even try and test it? Bunnyhopping with a soldier (rough approximation of regular marine movement speed) gives you a final hop speed which is the same or faster than a NS marine, prior to the limiter kicking in. Not only that, but hopping in TFC is significantly more useful simply because of the gamestyle, which rewards speed over caution.
First of all let me explain what (at least in my oppinion) is an exploit. An exploit is if you abuse (another word for exploit) bugs in the game engine which were never intended. So using aimbots, wallhacks etc is not an exploit because you do not use in game mechanics but 3rd party programs to do it. Exploits are for example the fixed alien resource donation bug. Aliens could "donate" resources to the gorge with going to readyroom and back again. This was obviously never intended because if the developers would have wanted the aliens to donate resources they would have either given them a donation option in the menu or a resource system like the marines.
Now lets see what bunnyhopping does (with bunnyhopping i refer to both the one to increase speed and the silent one). It uses a bug in the game engine to increase speed by jumping/strafing in a certain way. Was this intended by the developers of halflife or any of its mods? I doubt this very much or do you know adventures where you can skip parts with pressing 11 keys at once (impressive skill with only 10 fingers, you should get a reward for it in adventures) or car racing games where your speed doubles when you enter "i am a leet guy" in under 1 second (that would require quite some typing skill, why doesn't it help you in this car racing game?).
Conclusion: If you want to practice skills, better practice some which do not abuse bugs, because bugs will get fixed sooner or later and just because you wasted half of your life in mastering this skill it is no valid argument to leave a bug in the game. If you want to be good in a fps game practice aiming, dodging, advancing in groups etc but not jumping around like mad to gain speed due to a bug.
So is bunnyhopping a skill? Of course it is.
Is bunnyhopping a fps skill? Of course it is not (it won't help you in any reasonable fps since it has nothing to do with an fps at all).
Is bunnyhopping an exploit? Of course it is, you abuse a game bug to get an advantage.
Should bunnyhopping be removed? In my oppinion yes, it is a skill that has nothing to do with "the spirit" of an fps game and if i play an fps i do not want to require cooking, crochet or golfing skills skills as well, simply because THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH FPS!!! (can't say this often enough since it seems to be soo hard to understand).
First of all let me explain what (at least in my oppinion) is an exploit. An exploit is if you abuse (another word for exploit) bugs in the game engine which were never intended.
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And by that definition, hitting something through a wall with a grenade is an exploit. Ever turned in the air? Exploit. Ever crouched in a vent as marine? Exploit. What about upgraded carapace as an alien? Exploit. Got a high framerate? Exploit. (do a bit of research into the quake engines if you don't understand that one) Rocket jumping? Exploit. Jumped while on a ramp in quake 1? Exploit.
The above aren't intended, although some of them shouldn't be classified as "bugs", neither should hopping. The physics engine works in the way it written to work, it just so happens that the developers didn't forsee exactly how the engine could be used. The developers i'm referring to here are Id software. Hopping was created with the quake 1 physics system, along with rocket jumping, trimping, air control etc. All of these tricks were known prior to HL's release. Valve had full knowledge of how the physics system could be used before they released HL. And since then they have even adjusted the system specifically to change the functionality of hopping. How you can call it a bug after that i have no idea. The maximum speed cap could have been set at whatever valve wanted to set it at, they made the decision to cap it at its current potency. Still screaming exploit?
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Is bunnyhopping a fps skill? Of course it is not (it won't help you in any reasonable fps since it has nothing to do with an fps at all).
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Gee, then i guess quake 1, 2 and 3, the original TF, TFC, Q3F, oldskool CS, JK2, even the current incarnation of Doom 3 are all <b>unreasonable</b>?
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THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH FPS!!!
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Says who? You? If you say they don't, and i say they do, who is right? Are you the all mighty first person shooter god?
The first online shooter i ever played was QW. Hopping, trimping, rocket jumping, tight control and every possible physics trick you can squeeze out of the engine is an integral part of that game. Accepted and even embraced by the community. Considering pretty much every modern shooter owes most of its existence to Quake, where do you get the idea that hopping has nothing to do with FPS's? HL doesn't just take its inspiration from Q1, it basically pinches half of the code as well, which is the reason we're here having a conversation about HL hopping.
There is no rulebook will tells you what should be in a game, there is no 'way it was meant to be'.
Flayra himself said it was an exploit. Regardless of what you guys say or any arguements it IS an exploit for the simple fact that he said it is. Your argument could be said about Duping items in Diablo2 (which ruined the game for many people)
Why is Duping an exploit?
Because it gives a player an unfair advantage.
Why don't you Dupe yourself and take down that advantage?
Because Duping is an exploit, and I am morally opposed to exploits.
If the Devs thought rocket jumping was an exploit they would have stoped rockets from affecting you movement-wise. They didn't because they thought it was acceptable. The NS dev team has deemed BunnyHoping not acceptable and are removing it.
You are simply justifing cheating nothing more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was merely saying with that example, and my argument, that you're going to have to do more than say "it gives you an advantage and was not intended" to say it's an exploit. In my opinion, you're going to have to establish one of the following:
1) The tactic is not counterable
2) The tactic unfavorably changes gameplay
Also, things like crashing the server or lagging everyone out isn't really an exploit, it's just being stupid and malicious.
In the duping case, #2 applies, because instead of looking for items, you just dupe, and it gives you a huge advantage for something you don't work for. If you modify bunnyhopping in the way I suggested earlier, then I don't think bunnyhopping meets any of these criteria.
For fun, lets look at some examples of exploits. The bug where an alien can turn into a marine gives you a huge advantage, is not counterable by the marines, and hurts teamplay. That is why the bug is an exploit, and <i>not</i> because it wasn't intended by the developer. Also, the resource donation thing. It's not an exploit because "if flay wanted aliens to donate resources he would have make a resource donation option in the menu", it's an exploit because it gives the aliens an uncounterable advantage ( faster hives and resource towers ), and skews gameplay too much to remedy simply. Another, getting extra mines from the armory. Having an infinite amount of mines screws up gameplay, and the aliens can't have an infinite amount of webs early in the game.
If a tactic is clearly not intended by the developer, that may be an <i>indication</i> that the tactic might be an exploit, but by no extent does it mean that it <i>is</i> an exploit. For people that know something about logical arguments:
Exploit implies not intended by devs
does <b>not</b> mean
not intentended by devs implies exploit
You can't just take the converse of an implication.
Also, I think Flayra knows what he's dealing with and just thinks that <i>some</i> aspects of bunnyhopping are exploits. It wouldn't be impossible for Flayra to change bunnyhopping in a way very similar to what I suggested.
1) NS is not Quake, or HL, or Quake 2, or CS, or TFC, or anything except NS.
2) What is perfectly acceptable in one may not be acceptable in the other; it is the decision of the developer of that particular game.
3) Flayra has already said that bunnyhopping to gain speed - whether it be normally, moving backwards, or crouch-bunnyhopping - is not an intended element of NS and will be removed in 1.1.
4) Flayra has also said that he has no intentions right now of removing the ability to jump repeatedly to avoid attacks.
I think that's really all that needs to be said about this. LET IT DIE.
1) The tactic is not counterable
2) The tactic unfavorably changes gameplay
if flay wanted aliens to donate resources he would have make a resource donation option in the menu", it's an exploit because it gives the aliens an uncounterable advantage
getting extra mines from the armory. Having an infinite amount of mines screws up gameplay, and the aliens can't have an infinite amount of webs early in the game.
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All though Bunny Hopping IS counterable so are both your examples. You can counter Alien Donation by rushing RTs near the hive and killing the gorge. Also they may be able to get a hive up faster but they will get fades just as fast (because they have to go from 0 instead of 33 to get to 54 for fades). And Unlimited marine mines in base? A Fade's acid rocket could kill every marine in the base if aimed correctly, hardly uncounterable.
With Bunnyhoping Skulks can rush the marine spawn faster than intended potently killing marines before they even get IPs up and Marines can Gain two hives faster than intended.
Does two wrong make a right? No
And in the Opinion of myself, many others and the Dev team they believe BHing to unfavorably alter the gameplay.
Your defintion of an exploit is off which means so is your basis of your arguement.
Flames?
CS, firearms, and DoD all have a playerbase; I don't see how anti-exploit code is going to effect NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DoD doesn't have anti-bhop code...it has stamina <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> You can still airaccelerate around corners and obstacles and things of the sort.
And for the record CS completely newb'd out bhopping unless you're going downhill - I was a good bhopper back in the day before they took it out of there and to me it ruined the fun of the game...which is partially why I stopped playing.
As long as NS doesn't make you go super slow and come to a halt when you're bhoping that's cool, because you <b>should</b> be able to hop around and "prance like a schoolgirl" if you please! If most of you people look at the changes you want to employ and think about them with an unbiased opinion you might see the error of your ways and #SUYF <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Don't do or propose stuff that will nerf NS - that's why CS is so lame now because newbs wanted to get stuff changed because they could not do it and felt at a severe disadvantage. The fact of the matter here is that bunny hopping is a <u>SKILL</u> that has to be acquired and practiced to some extent to be good at. I don't mind reducing the max speed you can achieve with it as long as it doesn't make us slow down to a creep.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> </span> OWNED!
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'> </span>considering that people that can bhop including myself have been playing HL mods way before the average NS player has
noobs.
Yes, you are right, all these are exploits (well, with carapace i am not sure what you mean). Just that most of them can not be fixed as easily as bhopping. Do you really think marines beeing invulnerable from frontal attacks while crouching is wanted by the developers? The only reason they still are is that there are bugs which are easy to fix and bugs which aren't, the later ones can take quite some time (ever heared of a program called windows?). Especially if they are classified as minor bugs and the devs do not think of it as critical to fix them (turn in air, grenades hitting through walls).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Valve had full knowledge of how the physics system could be used before they released HL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Knowledge of an existing bug does not mean that it is intended. Valve is a company which wants to make money. Copy&pasting most of the parts of the quake engine is much cheaper in developing costs than fixing a bug that could cause other unwanted sideeffects. Just because they decided not to mess around with the quake engine does not mean that they thought that getting faster for hopping around like an idiot is an integral and importaint part of any fps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gee, then i guess quake 1, 2 and 3, the original TF, TFC, Q3F, oldskool CS, JK2, even the current incarnation of Doom 3 are all unreasonable?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Says who? You? If you say they don't, and i say they do, who is right? Are you the all mighty first person shooter god?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Common sense says that (the thing you obviously lack at). If you would need a drivers licence to play ns effectively it would not have to do anything with an fps either and i am sure you would not try to argue about that. Read the manual of ANY fps and you will never find a text like "and if you want to increase your running speed, just strafejump while alternating the direction you are facing, because that is how you move really fast in fps". You might get tips for aiming, for taking cover, advancing in groups etc. None will tell you how to bunnyjump (or how to drive a car).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The first online shooter i ever played was QW. Hopping, trimping, rocket jumping, tight control and every possible physics trick you can squeeze out of the engine is an integral part of that game. Accepted and even embraced by the community. Considering pretty much every modern shooter owes most of its existence to Quake, where do you get the idea that hopping has nothing to do with FPS's? HL doesn't just take its inspiration from Q1, it basically pinches half of the code as well, which is the reason we're here having a conversation about HL hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because id happened to make the first fps this does not mean all the bugs they created as well are carved in stone as "this belongs to an fps". fps is what its name says, a SHOOTER, not a fancy giana sisters jump and run game. Of course there are some "beat them up" approaches to fps like tfc where you will get "special moves" in form of bhopping and rocketjumping but they have not very much to do with fps anymore. But thankfully Flayra, maybe not the allmighty fps god but at least the allmighty ns god, wants a more tactical approach in ns. And so do all modern fps based on an own engine and even most of the newer mods based on the bugged quake engine. Must have a reason, doesn't it? Especially if you think of how much time those mod designers waste to kill a bug that you think is an integral part of any fps.
A good level 3 cara skulk can kill a good 'normal' marine if he:
1) knows the layout
2) Isn't ambushed
A group of marines in formation can annihilate anything but a serious ambush from multiple skulks, however the commander can allow them to survive this aswell by the use of scan.
An exploiting marine who B-hops silently gives the skulk no warning of the approaching marine.
As the silent marine passes the skulks hiding place it drops down significanly behind him (because it couldn't pre-empt due to the lack of noise and the marine is moving faster than normal).
The silent marine has no problem hearing the skulk, he flips round holds down his 'b-hop backwards' key and continues to accelerate away from mr skulk while shooting him'
He has no problem hitting mr skulk, 'muzzle flash? what muzzle flash?'
Anyone else feel this adds to the game?
BlueGhost<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you cant bhop backwards moron
but you can jump backwards at a faster then normal rate
end.
Amen, bunny hopping is stupid and takes away from the game. Granted an occassional one is alright, but I've seen so many people exploit it. Its just not right, and I'm upset that they won't fix the hitboxes on it. And lets get real, granted this is a sci-fi game, but a marine jumping around a skulk?
I've never seen anyone bunny hop besides myself and other upc members
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[Laugh]
CS was dumbed-down when it became popular and bunny-hoppy l33t players decided it should be played rambo style instead of the stealthy team-based play that it enjoyed in the early betas.
With Bunnyhoping Skulks can rush the marine spawn faster than intended potently killing marines before they even get IPs up and Marines can Gain two hives faster than intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you force your marines to rush the RTs and kill the gorges, then you have wasted time that could have been used securing hives or RTs. Also, you could do that tactic anyway and make the aliens get a hive even slower than they would have, even if they weren't using the donation bug. And if you give the gorge resources, he can get resource towers up faster, resulting in a much higher income than would normally be attainable. In any event, the aliens do better using this bug, no matter what the marines do. This upsets game balance. About the mines, there is no 1-hive counter for them, and you can get mines within seconds of starting the game.
And even while bunnyhopping in its present form you can't get to the marine base before IP's are put up. This will be even less possible if as I suggested the speed increase cap be moved down to 40% or so.
And even though we know Flayra sees parts of bunnyhopping as exploits, we do not yet know what measures he will take to change it. It won't necessarily be a removal of it altogether.