Why you don't use the nuclear reactor

24

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  • poesbrupoesbru CHMembers Join Date: 2018-01-03 Member: 234783Posts: 12 Fully active user
    edited January 2018
    1000 seconds is almost 17 minutes. The only time I find the growth time of melons relevant is when I first plant them and am waiting to eat them. Maybe I'm weird like that. It just makes no sense in the context of power source balance. It's only a food/water nerf to the player, which makes it slightly more tedious in limited situations (like making a new "base" and dying of thirst or hunger while waiting for melons, or alternatively sitting on a chair, since you don't need sustenance while seated, bizarrely).
  • RezcaRezca United StatesMembers Join Date: 2016-04-28 Member: 216078Posts: 1,061 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    I'd like to take those changes for a spin before I decide if I like them or not, but the way I've always looked at the Bioreactor was for it to be the next step up from Solar but behind Thermal and Nuclear - as opposed to being able to be on par with them. It'd still be early'ish game and would be for bases that can't benefit from Solar or just as a backup for small-medium bases that need the extra push during the night.

    When transitioning into more energy-demanding bases you'd go Thermal or Nuclear - the former, while powerful, requires you being in or near specific locations you may not be wanting to build your base by. Nuclear requires a little more looking after, as well as the hunting for (a currently finite?) uranite resource, so there's that too. I find more uranite than I know what to do with, but it's still - far as I know - finite. So depending on how long people play they may end up running out, making this reactor less appealing in the long run (unless resources respawn slowly over time, or there's other ways of acquiring uranite. Do the nodes Sea Treaders kick up drop these?)


    So having Bioreactors be less efficient would theoretically fit them into that early game role more solidly. If your base is still small and doesn't eat a lot of energy, you won't need Thermal or Nuclear. But if it's going to be using a lot of energy, then you'll probably want to start investing in the other two. Those are my thoughts anyway.
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  • BlrgBlrg Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Posts: 153 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    @Olmy
    I highly appreciate you guys reading this thread at this stressful moment of the game development.
    I don't want to be annoying so I will insist on it just one last time:

    I feel that it is really important that every room spends a little bit of energy.
    Right now you can build a giant subaquatic base with one biorreactor, put 1 single mushroom in it and never run out of energy (or just build 1 single highly inefficient solar pannel as long as it gets 1 energy). You won't be able to charge batteries in this base, but you will have oxygen, Medical Kit Fabricators and unlimited food and water forever. You will have unlimited alien containment tanks hatching eggs, etc.. and no need for any real source of power

    Right now (freshly tested):
    • solar pannel = max 15.3 energy/min (this one from wiki, not tested)
    • biorreactor = 50 energy/min
    • Thermal plant = around 62 energy/ min (not tested today)
    • nuclear plant = 250 energy/min
    • Water Filtering Machine = -51 energy/min
    • Scanner Room = -29 energy/min
    ----

    I suggest the power consumption to be something like:
    • Water Filtering Machine = -30 energy/min (decreased from 51)
    • Corridor = -1 energy/min
    • observatory = -1 energy/min
    • Multipurpose Room = -2 energy/min
    • Alien Containment tank = -2 energy/min
    • Moonpool = -5 energy/min
    • Vertical connector = -0.25 energy/min? (just to prevent abuse)
    • interior growbed = -5 energy/min
    • Medical kit fabricator = -5 energy/min

    Example:
    small-mid base: 4 Rooms, 2 alien containment tanks, 5 corridors, 1 interior growbed, 1 moonpool = 27 energy/min (which is just a little more of what you would save in the reduction cost of a water filtration machine)

    around 5 min of night would be require 135 energy to maintain this base during night (each solar pannel can store 75 energy, so 2 of them to survive night). So you would only need 4 or 5 solar pannels (if they are close enough to the surface) for this base to function nonstop without problems

    Then you increase a little the power production of the nuclear power to 350 energy/minute or 400 energy/minute and it suddenly becomes a must-have for large bases

    And please, limit the number of thermal plants on a single thermal vent, because late game materials are not the problem when you build something that require 0 maintenance

    Final note: this will be much more controversial to implement after v1.0 because some people with larger bases will have energy problems. In the same way that the Hull Reinforcement change would probably produce some drama if it happened after v1.0. That's why I am suggesting it now


    @garath
    garath wrote: »
    Blrg wrote: »
    garath wrote: »
    I would want a fuel rod to last TEN real time hours.

    A rod doesn't last "hours", it last 10.000 energy. That can last you for just a few minutes if you are charging plenty of Cells, or it can last you forever even if you have 1000 moonpools.

    Fake news!
    Olmy wrote: »
    • Doubled the energy content of reactor rods, so they last 80 minutes each, but we may adjust further.

    He means 80min with the reactor working at full power which means:
    80min * 250 energy/min = 20.000 energy

    if you don't consume anything it doesn't get depleted. If you consume, but consume less than 4.16 energy/s then it lasts longer. He talks about minutes because it is more understandable, but you need to understand when you are spending energy and when you are not


    RezcaRainstormD3ath71
  • Morph_GuyMorph_Guy Members Join Date: 2016-04-21 Member: 216034Posts: 495 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    While Reginalds aren't available everywhere, you still get them very early on (Grassy Plateaus, Sparse Reef, Crash Zone) and in relatively high numbers, so they're still a really powerful bioreactor fuel source early on.


    RainstormD3ath71
  • adel_50adel_50 Members Join Date: 2016-09-01 Member: 221973Posts: 388 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    Reactor rods are too expensive to make
    Olmy wrote: »
    Hey guys, thanks for the feedback. We're making the following changes to power production to reduce the amount of maintenance required to use nuclear reactors and to address balance issues with some of the farm-able plants.
    • Reduced all bio reactor fuel values by ~15%
    • Increased marble melon growth time to 1000 seconds.
    • Additionally reduced marble melon energy content by 20%.
    • Reduced gel sack energy content by almost 50%.
    • Doubled the energy content of reactor rods, so they last 80 minutes each, but we may adjust further.
    • Removed glass from reactor rod recipe

    I think in my opinion instead of removing the glass you either give more reactor rods with the existing recipe or make it so one urninaite crystal is needed for each rod

    And I really appreciate your comment in this thread looking forward to seeing 1.0
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  • Racer1Racer1 Members Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Posts: 1,595 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    The big problem is that you don't ever really need alot of power. If reactors produced 25 times more power than they currently do (which they should), then what would you use it for? There needs to be an end-game tech (like something to do with the escape rocket) that requires immense amounts of power.
  • adel_50adel_50 Members Join Date: 2016-09-01 Member: 221973Posts: 388 Advanced user
    Reactor rods are too expensive to make
    Racer1 wrote: »
    The big problem is that you don't ever really need alot of power. If reactors produced 25 times more power than they currently do (which they should), then what would you use it for? There needs to be an end-game tech (like something to do with the escape rocket) that requires immense amounts of power.

    Powering the rocket needs ion crystals so that's something (unless something is changed)
  • Racer1Racer1 Members Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Posts: 1,595 Advanced user
    Its not enough. The ion power cells only hold ~5x more power then regular power cells (unless something has changed). You can get enough energy to charge those from a couple thermal plants.
  • 0x6A72320x6A7232 USMembers Join Date: 2016-10-06 Member: 222906Posts: 5,262 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    Blrg wrote: »
    @Olmy
    I highly appreciate you guys reading this thread at this stressful moment of the game development.
    I don't want to be annoying so I will insist on it just one last time:

    I feel that it is really important that every room spends a little bit of energy.
    Right now you can build a giant subaquatic base with one biorreactor, put 1 single mushroom in it and never run out of energy (or just build 1 single highly inefficient solar pannel as long as it gets 1 energy). You won't be able to charge batteries in this base, but you will have oxygen, Medical Kit Fabricators and unlimited food and water forever. You will have unlimited alien containment tanks hatching eggs, etc.. and no need for any real source of power

    Right now (freshly tested):
    • solar pannel = max 15.3 energy/min (this one from wiki, not tested)
    • biorreactor = 50 energy/min
    • Thermal plant = around 62 energy/ min (not tested today)
    • nuclear plant = 250 energy/min
    • Water Filtering Machine = -51 energy/min
    • Scanner Room = -29 energy/min
    ----

    I suggest the power consumption to be something like:
    • Water Filtering Machine = -30 energy/min (decreased from 51)
    • Corridor = -1 energy/min
    • observatory = -1 energy/min
    • Multipurpose Room = -2 energy/min
    • Alien Containment tank = -2 energy/min
    • Moonpool = -5 energy/min
    • Vertical connector = -0.25 energy/min? (just to prevent abuse)
    • interior growbed = -5 energy/min
    • Medical kit fabricator = -5 energy/min

    Example:
    small-mid base: 4 Rooms, 2 alien containment tanks, 5 corridors, 1 interior growbed, 1 moonpool = 27 energy/min (which is just a little more of what you would save in the reduction cost of a water filtration machine)

    around 5 min of night would be require 135 energy to maintain this base during night (each solar pannel can store 75 energy, so 2 of them to survive night). So you would only need 4 or 5 solar pannels (if they are close enough to the surface) for this base to function nonstop without problems

    Then you increase a little the power production of the nuclear power to 350 energy/minute or 400 energy/minute and it suddenly becomes a must-have for large bases

    And please, limit the number of thermal plants on a single thermal vent, because late game materials are not the problem when you build something that require 0 maintenance

    Final note: this will be much more controversial to implement after v1.0 because some people with larger bases will have energy problems. In the same way that the Hull Reinforcement change would probably produce some drama if it happened after v1.0. That's why I am suggesting it now


    @garath
    garath wrote: »
    Blrg wrote: »
    garath wrote: »
    I would want a fuel rod to last TEN real time hours.

    A rod doesn't last "hours", it last 10.000 energy. That can last you for just a few minutes if you are charging plenty of Cells, or it can last you forever even if you have 1000 moonpools.

    Fake news!
    Olmy wrote: »
    • Doubled the energy content of reactor rods, so they last 80 minutes each, but we may adjust further.

    He means 80min with the reactor working at full power which means:
    80min * 250 energy/min = 20.000 energy

    if you don't consume anything it doesn't get depleted. If you consume, but consume less than 4.16 energy/s then it lasts longer. He talks about minutes because it is more understandable, but you need to understand when you are spending energy and when you are not



    I'd disagree on making base pieces consume power. Functional equipment (planters, Alien Contaiment, MedKit Fabbers), sure. Equipment drains power, not tubes. Maybe put a single "base" power draw for the O2 generation, but don't scale it with size.

    Problem with all of this, no matter what you do, is you need a clear way to communicate energy consumption to the player (like with Hull Strength), or it would be incredibly frustrating for players.

    Even the Water Filter, or the Seamoth in the Moonpool kind of confuses people for a second before they put it together in their minds. (I watch enough Subnautica Let's Plays for it to probably be considered a condition, lol)



    EDIT:
    adel_50 wrote: »
    Olmy wrote: »
    Hey guys, thanks for the feedback. We're making the following changes to power production to reduce the amount of maintenance required to use nuclear reactors and to address balance issues with some of the farm-able plants.
    • Reduced all bio reactor fuel values by ~15%
    • Increased marble melon growth time to 1000 seconds.
    • Additionally reduced marble melon energy content by 20%.
    • Reduced gel sack energy content by almost 50%.
    • Doubled the energy content of reactor rods, so they last 80 minutes each, but we may adjust further.
    • Removed glass from reactor rod recipe

    I think in my opinion instead of removing the glass you either give more reactor rods with the existing recipe or make it so one urninaite crystal is needed for each rod

    And I really appreciate your comment in this thread looking forward to seeing 1.0


    More reactor rods, please. If necessary, adjust the requirements up slightly to offset the buff a little.
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  • lordoffilinglordoffiling Members Join Date: 2017-08-10 Member: 232342Posts: 44 Advanced user
    the reactor rods don't last enough
    Solar is an infinite energy source. Thermal is an infinite energy source. Bioreactors are, for all intents and purposes, an infinite energy source.

    There is, therefore, only one solution to the nuclear reactor conundrum:

    Make the nuclear reactor a much larger pain in the arse to build than it is now, but have its energy output be infinite, just like the others. Until this is done, nuclear reactors will never see any significant use. They just aren't worth it.
    kingkuma0x6A7232garath
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    I do think the energy changes are just not sufficient. Not in the slightest.
    • Solar is unlimited energy but a low amount. No maintenance needed.
      A nice entry energy source. Night time issues apply.
    • Bio reactor is limited energy for a mid amount. Low maintenance needed.
      A way to nice mid level energy source. Due to game mechanics of way to easy to get biomass, this is in reality low maintenance and infinite energy.
    • Thermal is technically a replacement for solar as its the 2nd true infinite energy. No maintenance needed.
      High entry energy source. Base location is not really a issue if done well with either base placement itself or power transmitters.
      My personal go to for every base ever.
    • Nuclear is limited energy in again high amount. High maintenance needed.
      A bothersome unneeded power source. For less long term effort thermal gets you way more energy for effort.
      For a bit more but still far less effort, bio reactor gets you reasonable energy for much less effort. > make 2 bio reactors, byebye nuclear needs.
      Really the only need for nuclear is a location where there is no sun, no thermal, and you have only have options for the most limited of rooms. But even then im sure we can stick in growbeds.

    Nuclear will never ever be needed unless we simply NEED the power.
    As long as all other options provide viable power, nuclear is not worth any effort to use. Every other option simply works better.
    nerfing one power source, just makes another nonnuclear more viable. Nerfing them all may hurt the game enough to never get to a stage where a player plays long enough to get nuclear.

    If you even make the launchpad (which I did not do yet so shush on the spoilers) require a ocean of power, we may perhaps need nuclear to ya know... launch.
    But I heard noone else complain so I doubt, and really... only for the launch? Would you want that?
    Hence I suggested (perhaps after v1) to implement something like a dock for a cyclops eating a gazilion power.
    Or indeed, power by base floorspace. (id argue more room needs more oxygen and thus more power.)
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  • 0x6A72320x6A7232 USMembers Join Date: 2016-10-06 Member: 222906Posts: 5,262 Advanced user
    To keep or more towards reality, Nukes stent infinite but they last 20 years. Ok, so those is a game plus it's basically a mini reactor, so make it last an in-game month of constant 100% use, and be harder to craft (more Lead for insulation in reactor, plus adv wiring x 2, and for rods 10x Uranite each, all 4 together last a month at Max Power).
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  • baronvonsatanbaronvonsatan TX, USAMembers Join Date: 2016-12-01 Member: 224415Posts: 516 Advanced user
    It takes too much maintenance to keep it running
    Jacke wrote: »
    poesbru wrote: »
    Noticed the bulboa (whatever) nerf on experimental the other day, so started eating more melons....
    I've stopped cultivating Bulbo Trees too. I used to use them to top up Water to 100% before going on a trip outside my base or Cyclops. The change of Bulbo Tree samples from 3 Food + 10 Water to 6 Food + 3 Water made that require too many samples. So I switched to just using Marblemelons, Chinese Potato, and Lamp Tree fruit, all of which I was already cultivating.

    Bulbo Trees used to be a no-brainer for me to plant, but now they're useless given how much better at being food the other food is.

    Bulb Bushes give +10 water but they can't be planted inside, and there's no guarantee they won't be nerfed at some point either.

    This is dumb, but a click a day helps me out a little.
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  • BlrgBlrg Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Posts: 153 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    Or indeed, power by base floorspace. (id argue more room needs more oxygen and thus more power.)
    Exactly

    I have a gigantic base, with all the insane illumination and oxygen that it produces. I even have several air pumps ejecting oxygen outside the base... and the consumption of this base is 0. I just needed one time to put 1 mushroom in the biorreactor and the base will work forever. It feels a little stupid.

    The fundamental problem with the current system is that since you only need power to charge batteries/cells, there isn't any need for higher energy sources. Because in the worst case scenario, you just charge your batteries a little slower.
    But if a big base required 300 energy/minute, no one would build 6 biorreactors just to maintain the base if you could do it with 1 nuclear reactor

    But then it is also true that this would require to be able to turn down your reactor if you are planning to get out of your base for multiple hours... otherwhise you would consume your rods for no reason
  • JackeJacke CalgaryMembers Join Date: 2017-03-20 Member: 229061Posts: 625 Advanced user
    I just tested using a prefab minibase to see if I could use it to find wrecks. I use a Bioreactor in it, this being the first time I had a base solely powered by a Bioreactor. I first tried fueling it with Creepvine but that didn't have enough energy density. Then I went with Acidshroom seeds carried out as Acidshrooms. I did have some Marblemelon seeds but only enough for 2 Plant Pots which I needed for eating.

    I found the Bioreactor a bit demanding compared to my usual usage of Solar and Thermal power. In the future, if I use a Bioreactor, I'd likely stick to a lot of Marblemelons in a fixed base (will likely need 4 or 8 pots of them) or fish or eggs I just find at the base location.
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  • RainstormRainstorm Montreal (Quebec)Members Join Date: 2015-12-15 Member: 210003Posts: 1,050 Advanced user
    the reactor rods don't last enough
    Blrg wrote: »
    I have a gigantic base, with all the insane illumination and oxygen that it produces. I even have several air pumps ejecting oxygen outside the base... and the consumption of this base is 0. I just needed one time to put 1 mushroom in the biorreactor and the base will work forever. It feels a little stupid.

    I also agree that all base pieces should consume energy. They produce and/or carry oxygen constantly for the player and they also all produce lighting. The energy consumption per piece doesnt need to be astronomical but there should be one (i personally like either 0.5 or 1 per minute per piece but thats just me) Right now it being 0 just feels wrong for everything they do for the player. I also agree that props like the medical kit and the modification table should draw power when they are in use.


    Blrg
  • HiguideHiguide NJMembers Join Date: 2017-04-03 Member: 229385Posts: 55 Advanced user
    It takes too much maintenance to keep it running
    nuclear reactors definitely need a buff both how long and how much energy it produces, even cut down usage of how much power it consumed by. seriously does not justify me having to dedicate entire hauls with as many lockers i can fit inside a cyclops w/ uranium only to have a power crisis not long after.

    i mainly stick with setting up several thermal generators and daisy chaining power relays across the ocean enough so that i have more energy than i know what to do with

    another idea is allow it to be used on the cyclops
  • 0x6A72320x6A7232 USMembers Join Date: 2016-10-06 Member: 222906Posts: 5,262 Advanced user
    Thing is, unless it's easy enough, all making base pieces consume power will do is make people use small bases. The last thing I want to do when putting base pieces on for aesthetics or even functionality is take a break over to seconds to find a way to add more power. You don't want to need an entire solar farm just to have a moderately sized base.
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  • CanokinaCanokina UKMembers Join Date: 2018-01-11 Member: 234955Posts: 1 Fully active user
    i personally dont see any use in them as they are, i run usually 6 solar panels and 1 bio, and this is enough to maintain a large base, with 2 moonpools, having a pot with a food source, like a lanturnfruit tree by the reactor, means the charge i have in the day time is good enough to last me thought he night and in the event i lose it all the bio keeps my oxygen online, i feel that going out of my way to collect the resources to power a nuc reactor is too much effort for the payback im getting, maybe id consider it on a big base in the deep ocean caves, but usually thermal reactors are more effieicnt then, i usually have 3-4 bases by the time i reach the larva zone, and have never run out of power on any of them
  • D3ath71D3ath71 Members Join Date: 2018-03-21 Member: 239353Posts: 1 Fully active user
    I think given the devs’ love for marine biology that there should be some cost to deciding to use nuclear power. Like a random reactor failure that contaminates the local biome for 50,000 years. The game is easily completed at the moment using green fuels. The only reason I didn’t use a reactor to power my bases is because I know from experience that humans make mistakes. Nuclear power doesn’t forgive mistakes. Anyone want to share some irradiated Pacific salmon with me? Fukushima here I come.
  • AmadeoneAmadeone YESMembers Join Date: 2017-05-02 Member: 230194Posts: 51 Advanced user
    It takes too much maintenance to keep it running
    I think it just has some better Alterratives like solar panels. I've never run out of energy, even during the night.
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  • Employee427Employee427 Members Join Date: 2018-03-22 Member: 239396Posts: 7 Fully active user
    I prefer not having to stuff plants into my power room every 5 minutes. Reactor rods really aren't expensive for what they yield.
    baronvonsatan
  • StormShockerStormShocker Members Join Date: 2017-08-27 Member: 232676Posts: 22 Advanced user
    Reactor rods are too expensive to make
    I kinda just look at the reactor rod recipe and go "pshhthpppphpthp" and give up cuz it aint worth the cost for power that i just don't really need.

    Same here. Why spend all the time and resources when I can just go out catch a couple pepers and then have power for a long time
  • NomanNoman Cape TownMembers Join Date: 2018-02-26 Member: 238313Posts: 7 Fully active user
    Nuclear reactor powers my main base. Still the best form of power imo.
    just be sure to build waste disposal as well.
    Really isn't an issue making rods if you have the prawn to mine. have a storage unit with spare rods in my reactor room
    Bio reactors elsewhere. Sandsharks work well for bio reactors.
    Thermal plants in lava zone/lost river.
  • TenebrousNovaTenebrousNova EnglandMembers Join Date: 2015-12-23 Member: 210206Posts: 641 Advanced user
    edited March 2018
    I don't use nuclear reactors because there's simply no need to. If I were to build a base somewhere very deep down such as the Grand Reef or Lost River I can just use thermal power instead because underwater thermal vents are abundant down there...the only biome I could see myself using it is the Blood Kelp Trench because there aren't any vents and it's very dark. I've never used a bioreactor either because the alternatives are more convenient.
    BTown780
  • BlueBottleBlueBottle AustraliaMembers Join Date: 2018-02-03 Member: 236674Posts: 344 Advanced user
    I like to use them. And after all what could possibly go wrong?
    I've got my objections to the World, certainly. But I'll be very sorry to see it ruined.
  • zontwitchzontwitch CanadaMembers Join Date: 2018-02-21 Member: 238022Posts: 46 Advanced user
    edited April 2018
    It takes too much maintenance to keep it running
    Thermal Reactors for me because...
    1. I have to change full suit into radiation suit.
    2. The power doesn't last that long.
    3. Requires having to gather uranite crystals from time-to-time.
    4. Ongoing maintenance means that you always have to worry about the upkeep on your base.
    5. edit: The nuclear reactor is extremely loud.
    1 Nuclear Reactor versus 10 Thermal Reactors. If you're lazy then hands-down nuclear but with thermal once you have it set up you never have to worry about power ever again.
    Plus, you may only really need 2 or 3+ for a base, not 10 which is likely overkill for the majority of players.
  • BlueBottleBlueBottle AustraliaMembers Join Date: 2018-02-03 Member: 236674Posts: 344 Advanced user
    It's kind of weird that you grow green plants, which of course require lights. No worries, you've got lights. They're powered by your bioreactor, which you fuel with all the green plants you've grown.
    Shouldn't there be some kind of a law against that?
    I've got my objections to the World, certainly. But I'll be very sorry to see it ruined.
    Benkyo
  • BTown780BTown780 CanadaMembers Join Date: 2018-04-10 Member: 239944Posts: 19 Advanced user
    Reactor rods are too expensive to make
    I've always used either solar and a backup bio reactor loaded up with occulis fish, which I keep farmed at each base like this in a double high alien containment. Basically unlimited power. Deeper down I use thermal. I just don't see the point in constantly having to find, craft and restock nuclear rods when you can have unlimited power from bio reactors and the fuel restocks itself via plant growth or fish in containment.
  • elfcrisiselfcrisis Members Join Date: 2017-05-13 Member: 230466Posts: 533 Advanced user
    I think they made a change to how long the rods last, because they seem to last a /lot/ longer than they used to. Before that it was kind of a pain to keep it stocked, yeah. I like the nuclear reactor because I can have a single power source that will easily support two water filter machines.

    Plus it has a pleasant humming sound, kind of like being on the Enterprise.
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