Making skulk and aliens easier

alsteralster Members Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Posts: 209 Advanced user
There is a very good way to make aliens especially the skulk easier to play without buffing them. When a marine sees and then shoots a casual skulk player, the skulk is usually dead in seconds. In Metal Gear a stealth game, when your spotted an exclamation mark appears on the enemy and then your given seconds to respond. It makes Metal Gear very playable for casual players. Spiderman has a spider sense to know when he is in danger, so he almost never dies.

Solution:
In NS2 when the skulk is spotted on the marine map the skulk player is notified of this danger in a non annoying way. This is different then being scanned or in obs range. If the player is hiding he instantly knows when he is spotted. The player can be notified in many different ways: color change in the targeting cursor to red, x/circle shape appears around cursor for colorblind, flashing cursor, the edges of the screen slightly red, a slight red shader on skulk, or small exclamation mark sign on the screen. There could also be an audio cue like a low volume ping, gong, or action music like Mortal Kombat.

Pros:
+Lowers skill ceiling for the average player
+Doesn't buff the health, damage, or movement of aliens
+Let's players know when to start jumping or zig zagging
+Player does not need to check the map as often for danger he will be notified on screen
+Helps all aliens not just the skulk
+Comp players can disable it

Cons:
-Might be a tiny performance hit
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Comments

  • StardogStardog Members Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32448Posts: 303 Advanced user
  • alsteralster Members Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Posts: 209 Advanced user
    +Res biting is easier
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United StatesMembers Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Posts: 729 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    Agree... I think something like a little pop up that counts how many wall jumps you've chained together in a combo would be perfect.

    Would certainly encourage better skulk play. Though an emphasis on ambushing would also be insanely helpful.
    HEllrunner2k.trixX.
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Agree... I think something like a little pop up that counts how many wall jumps you've chained together in a combo would be perfect.

    Would certainly encourage better skulk play. Though an emphasis on ambushing would also be insanely helpful.

    Yeah, the feedback on walljumping could be better. It might be worth looking at racing games here. Have the speedboost "kick in" after three consecutive jumps or so with all the visual and audio cues of a racing game. (Swoosh sound, sudden acceleration, maybe a little popup thing.)
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Agree... I think something like a little pop up that counts how many wall jumps you've chained together in a combo would be perfect.

    Would certainly encourage better skulk play. Though an emphasis on ambushing would also be insanely helpful.

    Yeah, the feedback on walljumping could be better. It might be worth looking at racing games here. Have the speedboost "kick in" after three consecutive jumps or so with all the visual and audio cues of a racing game. (Swoosh sound, sudden acceleration, maybe a little popup thing.)

    This is a good idea. There should be a visual\audio indicator to help with wall jumping. This is UWE's chance to add cool stuff to the game to help people. Not make the game any easier to play. Teach and help with visual indicators.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    There is already a different sound for walljumping below 9, between 9 and 11, and above 11 speed by the way.

    Nordic
  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    There is already a different sound for walljumping below 9, between 9 and 11, and above 11 speed by the way.

    Yea, but how many people notice that? I think it should also have a visual cue and help indicate that you're doing it right with the first couple jumps.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Even if its not consciously noticed it kinda helps with the "speed fedback"

    they could improve this witha simple wind sound that increase with speed
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United StatesMembers Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Posts: 729 Advanced user
    I still think a combo counter of sorts would be best.

    People are obsessed with getting high combos..
    HEllrunner2k.trixX.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Posts: 387 Advanced user
    Devs won't change that to mention wallhop osince there comes rather a message that there are enough tutorial
  • alsteralster Members Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Posts: 209 Advanced user
    In order to have better player retention both marines and aliens need to be easier to play. You experienced players disagree with this, but it doesn't help that casual players must be forced to learn difficult mechanics to play well.
    KasharicIronHorse
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, BelgiumMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    That's the whole point of a skill based game man.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    No it's not.

    You can have easy to learn, difficult to master, that contains plenty of skill still.
    Not every single element from the beginning has to require skill.. that's just called inaccessible.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    Vetinari
  • AbsurdonAbsurdon GermanyMembers Join Date: 2015-02-09 Member: 201274Posts: 69 Fully active user
    w8 m8, dis guy srs? long time since i heard smthn dat stupid.
    pls instead of blamin the game just l2p. pdt already did way to much to make the game more ez for rookies.
    even with larger hitboxes some ppl still get only <10%. u wanna give them autoaim next? stop bein ridiculous pls
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    Neoken wrote: »
    No, inaccessible means not having the proper tools or guidance to improve yourself at something. That's always been one of the biggest problems with this game.
    No, those factors just worsens the accessibility?
    For one, consider that even with proper tutorials, 50% don't even bother with them.
    Then account for the fact that the only way to guide someone through intuitive gameplay design inherently makes it less skillful for the floor (the ceiling can still be high) and is exactly what I was highlighting.


    In other words, you can have a skillful game without making it inaccessible at the floor through high skill requirements, or having to lean on tools that no one will use.
    Again.. the design approach is referred to "easy to learn, difficult to master", not "difficult to learn, even more difficult to master".
    Both of those are skilled games, by definition, but only one of them is needlessly inaccessible.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    Bicsum
  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Posts: 425 Fully active user
  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Neoken wrote: »
    No, inaccessible means not having the proper tools or guidance to improve yourself at something. That's always been one of the biggest problems with this game.
    No, those factors just worsens the accessibility?
    For one, consider that even with proper tutorials, 50% don't even bother with them.
    Then account for the fact that the only way to guide someone through intuitive gameplay design inherently makes it less skillful for the floor (the ceiling can still be high) and is exactly what I was highlighting.


    In other words, you can have a skillful game without making it inaccessible at the floor through high skill requirements, or having to lean on tools that no one will use.
    Again.. the design approach is referred to "easy to learn, difficult to master", not "difficult to learn, even more difficult to master".
    Both of those are skilled games, by definition, but only one of them is needlessly inaccessible.

    You don't think people would click on a tutorial after a round if it seemed geared towards the user? Want to shoot a higher accuracy/work on your marine game, click on this tutorial. Want to work on your skulk gameplay, click on this tutorial. Yes, some people wouldn't watch it, but I think a lot of people that like the concept of the game and wanted to improve or stay with the game would. I think it should be geared at something the player did the previous round and try to show a path for improvement.
    Post edited by Deck_ on
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    1) Hellrunner2k, ROOKIES DO NOT NEED VETERANS TO TEACH THEM! Coaching and mentor programs have been tried before and have not had any success. This alone is enough to prove that veterans trying to teach rookies has little or no effect on player retention.

    2) Coaching/mentoring would be unwanted by the majority of rookies. I know this because it already is. Go on any pub server with any amount of rookies and you will have a hard time finding even one that is willing to actually listen to you. These players only play the game for 2 hours and quit forever regardless of any training.

    3) The people who would benefit the most from coaching are more intermediate players who are willing to seek it out already.

    4) Coaching, mentoring, or whatever you want to call it is just not worth any time or effort.

    5) Rookies really do not need veterans to teach them. If you do not believe me watch the videos in this spoiler.
    These guys have never played ns2.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpGxHqwfDb4
    These guys had some minor practice before hand but almost all of them are total rookies.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlXwGSVHC1U
    This is a full round on a rookie only server.
    http://www.twitch.tv/calego/v/38082162

    6) In those videos you will see that rookies do indeed learn the game on their very own. Sure, they do not play the way we veterans expect them to but that is not the point. Rookies are very new to the game and they do not know what things are. Let them learn at their own pace so that they are more willing to continue learning when they get to regular servers.

    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • dePARAdePARA Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    @HEllrunner2k
    Where are all your people you have trained in countless hrs?
    With your logic the playerbase should be much higher after all the mentor programs.

    Beside the fact that its boring like hell to tell the same over and over again for years, it just doesnt worth it.
    If people want to learn things, they are asking, search the forum or Youtube.
    And these players are the ones that play longer, the other ones who are not asking or interested in tutorial videos or whatever would quit anyway.
    Even if you try to train them a whole round.
    image
    halfofaheavenNordicDC_Darkling
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    I know it may sound odd with me still having a mentor link in my sig, but I am starting to agree.
    While rookies did appreciate it in the past, the number of rookies who appreciate help is dropping like a stone.. fast.

    I would no longer bother, it creates a worse mood in the match then not trying at all.
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Keats wrote: »
    Normally I would be inclined to believe @Nordic, but he didn't include any graphs or numbers so now I'm not sure.
    Fixed the post for you.
    Yeah... and as long as ppl spread these missguided opinions i see little hope. It wouldn't be a problem if they just babble in thier own echo chamber... but the sad part is, the devs tend to listen to these ppl cuz they are nicer than reality
    Did you watch the videos? I don't think so.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
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