IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
This thread is not advocating for nor discussing keeping mechanics hidden.. it's about removing or simplifying many of them instead.
And yes.. if you keep repeating a suggestion that has already been proven ineffective, and you keep replying with short quips repeating yourself despite being provided said information.. I'm going to call you out for ignoring such. Others here, even on this same page, have been providing much better suggestions (or at least ones that haven't been proven to be useless yet)
Fine, consider this my last post. It was fun while it lasted. Good luck.
edit: I was a bit salty when I wrote this last night, so let me just add that though I'm disappointed with the path NS2 seems to be taking these past months, I've still greatly enjoyed most of my time with NS2. It was a unique experience and I would have never gotten to know some awesome people without it. But I'm tired of debating now, and slowly growing more bitter, so I'm signing out. I still wish everyone involved in NS2's development all the best.
Ironhorse - just because the tutorials are only used/seen by a minority of users, doesn't mean no one would review something if it was more directed towards the user/gave away secrets/ways to get better. The tutorials currently in the game are very simple and there is nothing directing the user to have to view them. If you made it sound like, you will shoot better/you will play better if you watch this - I still think many people that like the game and want to stay with it would watch it. I don't know how you can be so sure about your opinion, when you may be basing this off the really simple ones that don't show any path to becoming a good player in the game. Also, nothing is specific to the individual. I think basing your opinions off the current ones is a mistake.
Let's take the upcoming commander one for example. I think if it looked cool - small video pop up in game at end of round or when someone tries to enter the com chair for the first time - would really make people want to watch it. Also, other players in the game could be directing people to the commander tutorial to watch first before trying commanding. I would think the community would share that knowledge with each other. It could be really useful. The current tutorials are not breaking down what makes someone a good player.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@Neoken
While I don't get why you would quit contributing to the forums just because of a discussion between us two... I am sorry to see you go.
Take care
@Deck_
I obviously understand the value behind tutorials.. I advocated for them time and time again for years (more than most seemingly?) and have helped write the scripts for the current ones.
But despite all that I no longer consider it a viable path to making the game accessible. Much larger steps would be needed for that. (steps that would probably upset most vets.)
Even if you ignore the impossible workload required to do it, you simply cannot tutorial away every mechanic. Ns2 is incredibly complicated with so many interdependent mechanics and contextually sensitive scenarios, it's just not possible to "teach" someone to play it - even if the completion rates weren't disappointing.
I realize this is frustrating to others to hear or accept - it was for me as well being such a large long time advocate for them and contributing my time towards them - but it's just not enough.
Which is why I believe in either a simplifying process, or a streamlined one that teaches you /provides feedback while you play somehow.
I usually like to advocate against tutorials. But I did like the Warsow tutorial.
It took maybe a quick 2-3 min to pass the obstacle course, then there's a short 5 point duel with a bot. No breaks, other than the ones you take yourself.
That's a good tutorial, a quick run down teaching the absolute basics of movement, and then a small duel just to try the weps real quick.
NS2's tutorial is incredibly boring and slow. Lots of chores where you get to hold E. No real lessons.
Don't teach the objectives, if the players are any worth to us, they'll figure it out on their own. Teach them movement and let them try the weapons for a short period of time.
Good players streaming and having fun. CSGO, DOTA, COD have streamers which are entertaining to watch and make people aspire to be like them and also learn cool tricks.
I don't know how many people know this but the tutorials are semi-inforced. Rookies can only play on rookie only servers unless they complete the tutorial.
I also doubt a tutorial that said "THIS WILL MAKE YOU AIM BETTER" in bright red letters would help much. People don't care to learn NS2, they just want to play.
The thing is that this could either be taken two ways. 1) Market the game towards players hardcore players, 2) Make the game more appealing to casuals.
Seems UWE chose #2. It is not surprising. It is cheaper and easier to accomplish, and has higher potential returns.
1) Market the game towards players hardcore players, 2) Make the game more appealing to casuals.
Seems UWE chose #2. It is not surprising. It is cheaper and easier to accomplish, and has higher potential returns.
Which is another reason why I play NS2 less and less, good games simply have gone near extinction.
People are either too lazy and clueless or too tryhard.
Thats not objective to say new players "don't want to learn just want to play"
I don't think rookies need to be taught by vets but they do need to be tought.
NS2 is not CSGO.
CSGO is a very complex and strategic game, below the surface yet has extremly simple rules on the surface, terrorist must plant the bomb, CT stop them.
NS2 is a less conventional concept, uses less INTUITIVE mechanics.
There must be a bridge built between regular shooter games and NS2. It's not the same as asking for new players to be good, it's asking them to have a general idea of what they're doing and refine this idea a bit every match they play.
I really love what PDT did for example with the new intro video that quickly goes over all the core stuff.
This should be expanded, ideas need to be reminded, be it by ingame situational messages/videos, or by loading screen hints or by anything else.
Comments
And yes.. if you keep repeating a suggestion that has already been proven ineffective, and you keep replying with short quips repeating yourself despite being provided said information.. I'm going to call you out for ignoring such. Others here, even on this same page, have been providing much better suggestions (or at least ones that haven't been proven to be useless yet)
edit: I was a bit salty when I wrote this last night, so let me just add that though I'm disappointed with the path NS2 seems to be taking these past months, I've still greatly enjoyed most of my time with NS2. It was a unique experience and I would have never gotten to know some awesome people without it. But I'm tired of debating now, and slowly growing more bitter, so I'm signing out. I still wish everyone involved in NS2's development all the best.
Wow that's pretty a rude "awesome" from @Wyzcrak , thanks for your work making this a positive place
Let's take the upcoming commander one for example. I think if it looked cool - small video pop up in game at end of round or when someone tries to enter the com chair for the first time - would really make people want to watch it. Also, other players in the game could be directing people to the commander tutorial to watch first before trying commanding. I would think the community would share that knowledge with each other. It could be really useful. The current tutorials are not breaking down what makes someone a good player.
While I don't get why you would quit contributing to the forums just because of a discussion between us two... I am sorry to see you go.
Take care
@Deck_
I obviously understand the value behind tutorials.. I advocated for them time and time again for years (more than most seemingly?) and have helped write the scripts for the current ones.
But despite all that I no longer consider it a viable path to making the game accessible. Much larger steps would be needed for that. (steps that would probably upset most vets.)
Even if you ignore the impossible workload required to do it, you simply cannot tutorial away every mechanic. Ns2 is incredibly complicated with so many interdependent mechanics and contextually sensitive scenarios, it's just not possible to "teach" someone to play it - even if the completion rates weren't disappointing.
I realize this is frustrating to others to hear or accept - it was for me as well being such a large long time advocate for them and contributing my time towards them - but it's just not enough.
Which is why I believe in either a simplifying process, or a streamlined one that teaches you /provides feedback while you play somehow.
It took maybe a quick 2-3 min to pass the obstacle course, then there's a short 5 point duel with a bot. No breaks, other than the ones you take yourself.
That's a good tutorial, a quick run down teaching the absolute basics of movement, and then a small duel just to try the weps real quick.
NS2's tutorial is incredibly boring and slow. Lots of chores where you get to hold E. No real lessons.
Don't teach the objectives, if the players are any worth to us, they'll figure it out on their own. Teach them movement and let them try the weapons for a short period of time.
Good players streaming and having fun. CSGO, DOTA, COD have streamers which are entertaining to watch and make people aspire to be like them and also learn cool tricks.
Maybe you can find streamers having fun. Maybe you can even find good players having fun. Maybe, JUST maybe, you can find good players streaming.
But where the fuck do you find all 3 in one person?!
Idiot wob.
I also doubt a tutorial that said "THIS WILL MAKE YOU AIM BETTER" in bright red letters would help much. People don't care to learn NS2, they just want to play.
The thing is that this could either be taken two ways. 1) Market the game towards players hardcore players, 2) Make the game more appealing to casuals.
Seems UWE chose #2. It is not surprising. It is cheaper and easier to accomplish, and has higher potential returns.
We just need to train him in NS2 and this shit will blow up in no time xD
Which is another reason why I play NS2 less and less, good games simply have gone near extinction.
People are either too lazy and clueless or too tryhard.
Thats not objective to say new players "don't want to learn just want to play"
I don't think rookies need to be taught by vets but they do need to be tought.
NS2 is not CSGO.
CSGO is a very complex and strategic game, below the surface yet has extremly simple rules on the surface, terrorist must plant the bomb, CT stop them.
NS2 is a less conventional concept, uses less INTUITIVE mechanics.
There must be a bridge built between regular shooter games and NS2. It's not the same as asking for new players to be good, it's asking them to have a general idea of what they're doing and refine this idea a bit every match they play.
I really love what PDT did for example with the new intro video that quickly goes over all the core stuff.
This should be expanded, ideas need to be reminded, be it by ingame situational messages/videos, or by loading screen hints or by anything else.