People are too stupid to play NS2. Make an official alternative game mode already.

tallhotblondetallhotblonde Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174770Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 216 Fully active user
edited July 2016 in NS2 General Discussion
You are achieving nothing with the balance changes.
Pub games are worse than ever and you have killed the game competitively.
Stop ruining NS2 by dumbing it down for the filthy casuals and make an official alternative mode already.

Just think of a way to make a more arcade style combat mode which isnt combat for legal issues - Control points on the map, with no commander IDK you think of something.

At the moment you have achieved nothing positive for the games community and hive 2.0 isnt the answer.

Jesus Christ.




- Skyice
.trixX.The_Welsh_WizardNeokenRammler2cough_Grendel_FrozenYojimboMe9aBensonYMICrazy
«13

Comments

  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    It is a dangerous route to take, since another multi divides the already dwindling player-base. This did happen in NS1.

    That's why I've suggested a single player campaign. I know it's not re-playable, but it could be the gateway drug for proper NS2 :]
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    BeigeAlert
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 153 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    We have nothing for singleplayer, but Defense Mod for sure seems like the first steps of a Cooperative storyline of NS2. @Katzenfleisch did an amazing job in there

    Edit: Hive Challenge is singleplayer, but it is not a campaign
    Keats
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 635 Advanced user
    Came back to play some ns2 pubs and they were even more dire than I remember. Aliens get stomped continually in the early game where even mid range players can easily mow down advanced skulks.

    It is so easy to kill skulks right now and you effectively lock aliens to 1 hive meaning they cannot get any tech to actually do something.

    The UI changes and all that are nice I suppose...
    umdum9
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    what is known: bots marines > bots aliens

    On servers bigger than 6v6 there was no change that could cause the balance to tip over marines.
    It probably comes from either smurf and returning players playing more marines side, or I think it may comes from those half bots half players round that tend heavily to have real players go to marines, and train aim vs bots in "cooperation mode".
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 622 Advanced user
    While I agree that another game mode is not viable, it is disheartening to see the direction the game is going is not going to be reversed. Not all change is good, and veterans that have stayed tend to be the ones who continue to stay.

    Also, if you don't mind, might you share if the retention rate of new players have increased at all? Is the year on year increase simply due to more players trying the game or have more new players stayed. Please also keep in mind that we had almost no updates for awhile due to issue with the build machine that coincides with the same period being compared. It might not be the quality of the updates that are attracting new players but that there are updates at all.
    .trixX.coolitic
  • _Grendel__Grendel_ Join Date: 2015-05-07 Member: 204238Members Posts: 87 Advanced user
    Obraxis wrote: »
    Combat standalone with NS2 shows it likely that a separate game wouldn't survive either.

    Um, I think there were other issues that impacted the success/failure of combat far more than the "splitting the community" argument, say like, 0 advertising so nobody knew that it even existed? Just say'n

  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 773 Advanced user
    Obraxis wrote: »
    NS2 has always been a complicated game. Many hidden mechanics, unshown 'rules' and some serious issues with getting new players to understand the game. We already made a separate not-updated build of NS2 so that Comp mod could have a stable release to build upon, that didn't seem to work out. Splitting the game is not an option, Combat in NS1 showed the community splits, and Combat standalone with NS2 shows it likely that a separate game wouldn't survive either.

    We're trying to address issues with player retention. We actually still get quite a lot of new players trying the game, holding onto those players is key for NS2 to survive. You don't expand a game's playerbase by targeting a highly skilled small portion of it, you do it by encouraging and helping new players in modern accepted ways. It's not Fall 2009 anymore. Change is good. NS2 has been stale for a while, constant updates are helping keep us relevant, getting us feedback much faster and shows the game is still alive.

    Compared to last year, we're seeing an increase of ~12% to the playerbase over the last few months against last years. Not as as much as we'd like, but it's a really nice positive. So sorry the game isn't going the way some of you want, but we believe it's necessary to ensure the game's growth.

    Change is not good. Good changes are good. Bad changes are bad. Easy as that.

    Good luck by continuing dumbing down the game to appeal the CoD players. I am sure they will have much fun the 5 hours they care about NS2.

    I mean, you could do what Deck and many others said to help player retention. But it's easier to change Onos boneshield or adding health bars than to find ideas how to teach beginners better, right?
    .trixX.coolitic
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    NS2 pub where always a double edged sword. You had prem div players playing with rookies in one team, so this is not new.
    But what is new is the complete lack of any understanding of the game of most of the current players.
    Especial playing aliens is so horrible and unfun right now i cant describe it.

    All i see is braindead skulks running around on the floor complete clueless only to engage alone against 4 marines.
    And after that they doing this again and again and again. (ckecking the gametime, 230hrs. wtf)
    They have no idea what happen on the map meanwhile. (4 marines in topo? maybe they going c12 next or nano?, Nano whats that?)
    One good shooter harassing one of the alien naturals is basicly enough, then the skulks coming one by one, meanwhile rines taking the whole map.

    I was always pro rookie only servers but it looks like they made things only worse in the long run.

    If someone died 5 times at the same position against the same marine, does this skulk really need an tutorial that says "Nono, its not a good idea to run on the floor against this marine in an long corridor"
    Dont tell me people are that dumb today.
    image
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 727 Advanced user
    dePARA wrote: »
    Dont tell me people are that dumb today.

    Believe it or not, they are...

  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,829 admin
    dePARA wrote: »
    If someone died 5 times at the same position against the same marine, does this skulk really need an tutorial that says "Nono, its not a good idea to run on the floor against this marine in an long corridor"
    Dont tell me people are that dumb today.

    You'd be surprised how often I have to tell people "don't bother fighting those marines, just attack something else, they'll come to you!"
    Vetinari
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation Posts: 722 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    dePARA wrote: »
    Dont tell me people are that dumb today.

    Believe it or not, they are...

    Fortunatly, you make a nice pair that raise the average understanding.
    Freak out
    Nordic
  • CCTEECCTEE Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 772 Advanced user
    Marketing should be focused on the fact that this game is uniquely hard. Its not a problem (although not for everyone): its something which sets it apart.
    grrrr im beast
    jrgncoolitic2cough
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 773 Advanced user
    CCTEE wrote: »
    Marketing should be focused on the fact that this game is uniquely hard. Its not a problem (although not for everyone): its something which sets it apart.

    This is true but not what the devs want. They do not want hardcore player base, they want a playerbase full of casuals and they are trying to make the game ready for that.
    2cough
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 142 Advanced user
    Of course it is important to help people learn the game, but at the same time there are loads of sources for this. Wikis, in-game tutorials, popups, some really helpful veterans, forums, youtube videos, guides on steam. the problem is not the lack of sources but the motivation to learn. In my eyes the knowledge of the game should be motivated by the will to win and survive, and that is also a part of the ns-experience ;) If you don't bother and expect a hand holding experience all the time you can waste enormous amounts of energy forcing them to learn. so what is most important? What gives a better effect than what there is today? Shall the devs and community focus on making it a perfect e-learning experience? Or refining the game in it self, and sort out balance and matchmaking issues? When i play this game i see the low playerbase as the single most important factor to "have good games". We have "many" servers that have a very wide range of skill levels of the players and that stems from a low player base. More players and more servers this wouldn't be as much of a problem...in my eyes this the solution however hard to achieve it is.

  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 387 Advanced user
    @jrgb Most tutorials or wikis are not up to date.. started few month ago.. playing regularly.. there wasn't anything up do date to find
    meatmachine.trixX.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Handschuh wrote: »
    @jrgb Most tutorials or wikis are not up to date.. started few month ago.. playing regularly.. there wasn't anything up do date to find

    A new wiki has been in the process of being made for a few months now. AFAIK, it is slow going. @Foxy could tell you more if you really wanted to know.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • Mattk50Mattk50 Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182824Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 264 Fully active user
    edited July 2016
    Obraxis wrote: »
    NS2 has always been a complicated game. Many hidden mechanics, unshown 'rules' and some serious issues with getting new players to understand the game. We already made a separate not-updated build of NS2 so that Comp mod could have a stable release to build upon, that didn't seem to work out. Splitting the game is not an option, Combat in NS1 showed the community splits, and Combat standalone with NS2 shows it likely that a separate game wouldn't survive either.

    We're trying to address issues with player retention. We actually still get quite a lot of new players trying the game, holding onto those players is key for NS2 to survive. You don't expand a game's playerbase by targeting a highly skilled small portion of it, you do it by encouraging and helping new players in modern accepted ways. It's not Fall 2009 anymore. Change is good. NS2 has been stale for a while, constant updates are helping keep us relevant, getting us feedback much faster and shows the game is still alive.

    Compared to last year, we're seeing an increase of ~12% to the playerbase over the last few months against last years. Not as as much as we'd like, but it's a really nice positive. So sorry the game isn't going the way some of you want, but we believe it's necessary to ensure the game's growth.

    I didn't donate money to this game's continued development for you to take ns2 and make it into overwatch with shitty hitboxes and removed gameplay mechanics. Give me my fucking money back you dishonest money grubbing con artists. Screw this bait and switch, and screw your "more money now" based approach. I will NEVER buy a UWE game again as long as you are employed here, you are a traitor to your playerbase and i hope it comes back to bite you in the ass in a big way.


    You've forcibly taken the game in my library i always loved going back to and shat allover it, congrats, gotta keep getting dollarydoos from the 5 new people who try ns2 when your not selling the game for 10 cents on steam.
    mAL1CEAbsurdondevel
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    @Mattk50 , just chill man, venting on the forums like that isn't gonna help you at all.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,829 admin
    edited July 2016
    DAYAM!!! Take it down a notch. We can hear you just fine below 11. :)
    657789.jpg
    coolitic
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    He does have a point @BeigeAlert , even though the serving needes refinement. You guys pissed me off too big time a few months ago, because I couldn't play on linux anymore because of crashes every 20min (before february, I had none). This game is the only reason I bought another SSD and installed win, even though it's advertised as linux compatible. That's how much we love this game. So please... please listen to us, and stop being so hard-headed about unreasonable changes which will benefit noone.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    2cough
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 727 Advanced user
    Funny thing is I never had problems before this year either.. Oh it crashed upon closing every so often, but that was a non issue (since I was closing it anyway) and one of the first CDT patches fixed that..

    Then the PDT came along and now I get random crashes when joining a server, textures are no longer loaded when I first log on, and I get a 5-10 second freeze as soon as I open the scoreboard after map changes..
  • DilligafDilligaf Join Date: 2014-05-25 Member: 196238Members Posts: 55 Advanced user
    Notice how the same groupies always disagree when someone has an opinion about the game, must want that squad 5 badge so bad..
    Kouji_San
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    Dilligaf wrote: »
    Notice how the same groupies always disagree when someone has an opinion about the game, must want that squad 5 badge so bad..

    I disagree with disagreeing based on disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing to disagree

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

    KashariccooliticDilligaf
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159575Members Posts: 27 Fully active user
    edited July 2016
    I don't play Natural Selection 2 much anymore. When it first came out on steam, I immediately bought it.

    I like competitive games. I have lots of friends who like competitive games. But generally there are a few things that make me play games over a long period of time.
    1. Variety - The variety in NS2 is the different alien choices, and marine weapons etc. You can play quite a long time and get "good" with all the different choices.
    2. Progression - The is no progression in NS2 that I know of (other than in-game progression of your base).
    3. Fair Matchmaking - When I played (was quite a long time ago), there was no matchmaking or anything to allow players to "easily get into a fair game." I have literally tried games with friends, we go through the tutorial, think "this game is going to be awesome" then we click on "Play" after the tutorial, a LIST OF SERVERS come up, and we exit and uninstall the game. Without Matchmaking, it is nearly impossible to find fair games.
    4. Notoriety - If it is a small player-base, some people play to be "known" as a good player. I have one friend specifically (Gamertag Xevil) that will only play games if he has the ability to be one of the top players. So he gravitates towards niche competitive games.

    Honestly, you could just do what Evolve did when they released Evolve Stage 2.
    Their game had a very high minimum skill requirement. So they reduced that by doing the following:
    1. gave everyone the ability to use the Dome (so you didn't have to rely on a single team-mate to be good)
    2. reduced the amount of unique abilities per Character (So you could switch characters more easily and still play well)
    3. And made the maps smaller and less complex (It was hard for new players to learn the very complex maps, and made games frustrating)
    Then they added a TON of cosmetic things you can buy from an in-game shop, and new hunters/monsters you can unlock.
    And after completing the above, they made it so you can start playing the game for free.
    Of course they also changed the name of their game, so anyone who previously owned the game, would see "Evolve Stage 2, I need to see what this is."

    Just my opinion. But I bought the Natural Selection 2 4 pack, and tried to get my friends to play, and it was generally impossible.
    Since there was no matchmaking, you don't progress in ELO, and at the time there were no cosmetics or anything to work towards while you were learning the game. Your only option was to HOPEFULLY find a good lobby, and hope a veteran didn't come in and destroy you, or join your team and make it boring.
  • Bike_ManBike_Man USA Join Date: 2016-03-12 Member: 214124Members Posts: 42 Advanced user
    Although this thread has gotten derailed, I'll throw in my two cents. For one, if you were an early backer, I don't think you have any grounds whatsoever for demanding your money back. Not just because you were forced to agree to terms and conditions, but because a product has definitely been fully developed AND THEN SOME. Just because you don't like the way it went doesn't mean that this was some sort of "bait and switch" scam. Many, many, many games aim very high and then deliver lower. Take a look at a few trailer-to-gameplay comparisons, and you'll see what I mean. Some games outright lie in their marketing, while others simply have to be a bit more realistic in their delivery. NS2 was not shat on during any stage of development. Think of TF2: I bought it right after the engineer class update. I loved it. It's changed, big time. Some changes (hat simulator/mannconomy/crates) I didn't like, but TF2 was and is still there, and I might start playing again soon once their matchmaking becomes smoother.

    tl;dr Refund my taxes, someone spent them wrong.

    Speaking of matchmaking, I will admit that I have a bias on the issue. I'm used to community servers and player run balancing being the only way to play. I never had xbox live or psn, so I'm not used to pressing play and emerging in a random game. NS2 could theoretically do MM, but keep in mind this isn't a cure-all. With a paltry number of players entering the game at any given time, you can't just wait a few minutes for a huge pool of players to collect and be sorted. That kind of MM would be impossible, and sorting joining players into already running games (of which there are always very few with open slots) wouldn't be much better. It's not just a population problem, either. Servers need to be high performance and standardized for all players, like Valve's official servers (usually) are. I wouldn't want to be matched to a Thirsty Onos server, because I live in NA and that server doesn't. Matchmaking needs to be especially high quality thanks to the skill ceiling (more like skill sky) in this game, while still being fast and allowing for friends to play together.

    tl;dr Matchmaking is complicated, and Hive 2 should help. In the meantime, git gud.
  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members Posts: 688 Fully active user
    edited August 2016
    Imo, the ideal thing would have been to make 2 officially supported modes initially when the population was still huge with one comp and the other for well...more casual play. But since the game is old, supporting 2 probably ain't gonna happen at this point. Something like CS:GO's classic casual vs classic competitive. Two huge buttons when you start up the game so that people won't miss it also outlining what is different. You need a large playerbase for this to work though.

    Making those 2 modes until they are satisfactory, giving the game a permanent f2p window where anyone who nabs the game keeps it and then closing it once there's enough players would be a good way see if things can work out. Still, impressed at the game being updated all this time.

  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 727 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Flatlander wrote: »
    [*] Fair Matchmaking - When I played (was quite a long time ago), there was no matchmaking or anything to allow players to "easily get into a fair game." I have literally tried games with friends, we go through the tutorial, think "this game is going to be awesome" then we click on "Play" after the tutorial, a LIST OF SERVERS come up, and we exit and uninstall the game. Without Matchmaking, it is nearly impossible to find fair games.

    I have the exact opposite experience.. So many games these days my friends and I will get hyped for, but when we get into the game and see no dedicated server browser, and nothing but matchmaking to play.. We immediately uninstall and refund..

    Every game I have that uses matchmaking I am unable to play.. Either it takes years for it to find players, or it connects me to people on the other side of the planet with 500 ping, or its hilariously unbalanced with a "party" of friends against a group of randoms.. (and ironically unbalanced games of parties destroying random teams of loners is by far the most common problem)

    In truth all matchmaking is at its core is a team stacking mechanic that let's you stack 24/7/365... And it punishes everyone with wait times and excessive lag to do it... Funny how before matchmaking was introduced to the gaming world team stackers were extremely frowned upon, and in some cases even warranted kicking them to get a fair game.

    It's just pure cancer of the gaming industry in every conceivable way. Any minor benefit matchmaking gives you can easily be added as features to a server browser..
    The_Welsh_WizardStardog
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    ^The advantages to matchmaking is you are playing on a server with equally skilled players and you are all starting the game at the same time. It would be nice in ns2 if you knew by the time you pushed start, you would probably be starting a game within 3 min for example with players of even skill level as you. That would be nice. Or maybe even have the commander picked during this time, that would be efficient.

    Yes, you could do that on a server browser but it is less smooth. You could end up joining a server in the middle of a round and then offset the balance, you could have to wait to play. You would need different skill level servers and for them all to have people in them. I think the experience of playing a game looks better with matchmaking in today's world.

    It looks like they are thinking about a hybrid matchmaking idea which might be the only way to go about it for NS2.
    NordicMe9aHandschuhmigalski
Sign In or Register to comment.