Balance is much more complex than 50/50 win rates. You want the game to be fun. 50/50 win rates mean nothing if every win is a stomp or a base rush. That is not what I consider fun.
Arguing on semantics:
You don't balance for fun, you design for fun. The goal of balance is statistical in its nature. If you're not careful while balancing you can turn a game into a very homogeneous experience while making it perfectly balanced to the point that all the guns feel the same and the game is no longer fun. Some aspects of balancing can make the game more fun, as it can help turn a "optimal/obvious choice" into an "interesting choice", but it also can turn it into a "hollow/irrelevant choice".
Balancing is a tool, not a means to an end. When talking about balance, we can talk about overall win rates, expected outcomes of various engagements, general timings of tech and lifeforms... but it is incorrect to say 50/50 is not balanced. You can say it's not fun, but that is the very definition of balanced.
The problem is that because of the last updates the game is less fun and less balanced now. So I would question your design philisophy.
There really cannot be much more to be said on this topic.
Some people like it. Others (the "pros" who were apparently denied their imaginary chance at fame and multimillion dollar gaming contracts) don't. The majority of the community couldn't care less and just play and have fun regardless. It was a point of discussion on most servers when it was introduced, but most people except the troglodyte zealots who inhabit this forum have moved on.
So much "ivory tower" theoretical nonsense here. Do even half the people whining about the health bar actually play the game?
How is the game "less fun and balanced"? Stats tracking will show that nothing much has changed in terms of the "balance", and as for "fun" how exactly do you measure that objectively?
Give some whingers a keyboard and an unlimited text field and this is what you get: inanity to the power of inanity. Really getting boring now.
Some people like it. Others (the "pros" who were apparently denied their imaginary chance at fame and multimillion dollar gaming contracts) don't. The majority of the community couldn't care less and just play and have fun regardless.
So if we dislike it that means we must be some kind of reject pros who all think we're good enough for multimillion dollar contacts... What a moronic train of thought there..
News flash.. I'm about as far from the pro mentality you can get, and despite being casual all the way I hate them...
Also I'm pretty sure that poll shows that the majority want them gone. I even hear people complain about them in-game still..
Also stats tracking doesn't always show the whole story...
Some people like it. Others (the "pros" who were apparently denied their imaginary chance at fame and multimillion dollar gaming contracts) don't. The majority of the community couldn't care less and just play and have fun regardless. It was a point of discussion on most servers when it was introduced, but most people except the troglodyte zealots who inhabit this forum have moved on.
I'm gonna have to chime in and say the recent updates have ruined the game for me as well. Everyone is pissed, competitive tournaments (ENSL) are dead, modded games are empty when I'm awake.... This all started around Patch 294. Very unfortunate for my favorite game to implement such polarizing features.
I'm gonna have to chime in and say the recent updates have ruined the game for me as well. Everyone is pissed, competitive tournaments (ENSL) are dead, modded games are empty when I'm awake.... This all started around Patch 294. Very unfortunate for my favorite game to implement such polarizing features.
Never good to polarize a small playerbase.
"The recent updates" yea except your issue has actually little to do with the recent gameplay updates, you are still complaining about that same browser change that supposedly ""killed off" ns2large servers (along with some story of ddos attack) by preventing some new players from feeding.
But we don't really know for sure whether that's the cause, maybe people simply got bored of it, maybe a 42 player server is just harder to fill, especially in summer?
And even though balance can be approximate at times, not everyone is "pissed" or disliking the changes.
As for the comp scene, it was already dying before the gameplay changes, many of them didn't care that much anymore (beside compulsive complaining), proof being that nobody proposed to maintain compmod and they dismissed the steam beta branch created specifically for the NSL.
I'm quite surprised at how apathetic I am towards this fairly polarizing change. I winced a little when I first read the changelog, but then after actually playing with it in-game it really didn't bother me and see the benefits for with/without. As a feature, I'm happy to continue playing with it.
The problem is, it's hugely divisive - but it's reasonable to assume that it's not really a dealbreaker to remove it for those who like it/don't care. Whereas, it is a dealbreaker to keep it for those who hate it (at least, much moreso than the former).
The reception to this should have been as obvious as the atmospheric territories thing. Both these instances makes me wonder if the devs actually know their audience (although some of the more recent changes restore my faith).
Anyway, like with the atmospheric territories mod, personally I think it's one of those things where it should be left as a server option or at the very least left open to be modded out. But I'm being told that this is not the case? That modding it out has been disallowed. If that's the case, I think this is a huge huge mistake.
I will continue to play because I enjoy the game and don't care about the change. But what about the change is so crucial to the ns2 experience that you must assert that the game should only be played with this feature? At the cost of so many players too.
I understand the idea of not letting the playerbase hold hostage the features the devs want for the game by allowing them to mod out anything they don't like. But in this case, is this feature really so essential that it's worth the lost players?
If you want to make a point of asserting autonomy over the game's development as it endevours to implement more controversial changes - if that's what's being done - then perhaps choose a moment where it actually matters rather than lose a bunch of players over a silly hp bar feature that's very much a 'take it or leave' it thing as far as features go.
EDIT: Okay apparently the mod just isn't whitelisted for hive score. But that's pretty damn important. While you aren't exactly blocking it, you're not giving people much of a choice as to whether they can use it.
Just as there must always be a Stark at Winterfell, this forum must always have a poster who is generally wrong about everything with unwarranted confidence. It used to be Savant, Heatsurge, Res, Imbalanxd(my favourite) and now the mantle has been passed to you. Congratulations.
Lol, to see my name mentioned and all the memories xD . I like playing devil's advocate so there you go. Imbalanxd was indeed entertaining until... didn't he get banned... probably too "far out" as far as criticisms go anyway.
I don't know what you disagree so passionately about the guy above though. I read his post.
Sure, the changes are "startling" especially since the game had been more or less abandoned (or you may say "final"/"stable"/"maintenance only") for like a year or so, as far as new features go. I think it's good to shake up things a little, it was becoming quite "stale," in a way. Thing is, a lot of the few remaining players liked it stale. When things change, some people are always not going to like them... and you may argue that it indeed "breaks" the comp scene since they rely so much on stability as far as balancing to keep it fair.
On the other hand, let's face it... the game has been down to like 4-5 servers in the US active at the busiest time. For all intents and purposes it's "dead." Meaning it's not going anywhere except slightly down-trending. And you get to play with the same people over and over and over every day... but on the other hand, it's good that people still come to play NS2 after such a long time (including me sometimes). I think the "new dev team" effort is to try to breathe fresh air into the game in hopes of bringing some old players back and gaining a few new players, at the risk of alienating old players... and that's a risk that has already been taken - we're yet to see if it pays off or no.
As far as mods go, it has always been kind of sad for most people the game is not "complete" without NS2+. That's what they're also trying to push against. The game should be "feature complete" without mods... something that should've probably been fixed around the first 6 months of release rather than now :-) .
BTW (on topic) I think I mentioned above I don't like the health bars. In fact, I don't really like the numbers either. I think we should just leave the red hit indicator to make things more interesting.
"#Dealwithit #Getoverit" Very few people on these forums use hash tags, most of us, I would like to think, do this to demonstrate our (probably fake) maturity.
Right or wrong, hash tags don't, as of yet, help your argument on these forums.
I'm gonna have to chime in and say the recent updates have ruined the game for me as well. Everyone is pissed, competitive tournaments (ENSL) are dead, modded games are empty when I'm awake.... This all started around Patch 294. Very unfortunate for my favorite game to implement such polarizing features.
Never good to polarize a small playerbase.
"The recent updates" yea except your issue has actually little to do with the recent gameplay updates, you are still complaining about that same browser change that supposedly ""killed off" ns2large servers (along with some story of ddos attack) by preventing some new players from feeding.
But we don't really know for sure whether that's the cause, maybe people simply got bored of it, maybe a 42 player server is just harder to fill, especially in summer?
And even though balance can be approximate at times, not everyone is "pissed" or disliking the changes.
As for the comp scene, it was already dying before the gameplay changes, many of them didn't care that much anymore (beside compulsive complaining), proof being that nobody proposed to maintain compmod and they dismissed the steam beta branch created specifically for the NSL.
I'll bite, @RevanCorana . If you noticed, I wrote that a long time ago. Way before the recent issues have cropped up, FYI. Since then, Wooza and his supporters have changed their reviews. I, however, have not because I am still repulsed by what this game has become.
So... do you think we should disregard anybody who liked to watch/play competitive games and make successful mods? And lump me in as a Wooza supporter? How convenient towards your arguments.
Why don't you keep watching passively as NS2 turns into Vanilla. All the work put in Comp + modding... Let it die in 1 week (not a few months as you claim. It literally died in 1 week, probably less).
Actually, that means nothing to you. If you like Vanilla so much, why don't you just shut up and play it? Because you aren't affected by me or anything I'm trying to defend.
One more thing... you are extremely disrespectful. NS2Large was created, maintained and paid for by a content creator. It took blood and sweat AND MONEY to keep it running. You should probably improve your attitude towards the people who work to keep NS2 diverse and active. Shame on you.
Why has a change like this been rammed down our throats at this stage in the game? This sort of change should not be done at this stage in the game's lifetime, when i come back to play ns2 i don't want to see everything has been messed up despite threads with near unanimous request for the change not to be made.
One of the biggest challenges to keeping a community of players in a game like ns2 happy is knowing when not to make sweeping changes. Same goes for csgo, neotokyo, whatever have you. Especially if something is as silly and obnocious as healthbars on everyone.
This change and the obvious lack of consideration of the gameplay dynamics this "addition" removes would be enough to write off anyone even considering this change as a bad game designer. It just demonstrates a massive lack of consideration and thought. please get this person or people away from the update servers.
So I played my first game today in over a month and I was amazed that these health bars are still in it? Unbelievable. I seriously thought this was a gag that had gone too far.
Why has a change like this been rammed down our throats at this stage in the game? This sort of change should not be done at this stage in the game's lifetime, when i come back to play ns2 i don't want to see everything has been messed up despite threads with near unanimous request for the change not to be made.
One of the biggest challenges to keeping a community of players in a game like ns2 happy is knowing when not to make sweeping changes. Same goes for csgo, neotokyo, whatever have you. Especially if something is as silly and obnocious as healthbars on everyone.
This change and the obvious lack of consideration of the gameplay dynamics this "addition" removes would be enough to write off anyone even considering this change as a bad game designer. It just demonstrates a massive lack of consideration and thought. please get this person or people away from the update servers.
That seems a bit harsh.
You need to consider the impact on all skill levels. It's definitely a win for casual accessibility - great way to convey information without high level teamwork and communication. The loss of gameplay dynamics only really affects comp, and if it's a server option then enemy health bars are win win.
Why has a change like this been rammed down our throats at this stage in the game? This sort of change should not be done at this stage in the game's lifetime, when i come back to play ns2 i don't want to see everything has been messed up despite threads with near unanimous request for the change not to be made.
One of the biggest challenges to keeping a community of players in a game like ns2 happy is knowing when not to make sweeping changes. Same goes for csgo, neotokyo, whatever have you. Especially if something is as silly and obnocious as healthbars on everyone.
This change and the obvious lack of consideration of the gameplay dynamics this "addition" removes would be enough to write off anyone even considering this change as a bad game designer. It just demonstrates a massive lack of consideration and thought. please get this person or people away from the update servers.
That seems a bit harsh.
You need to consider the impact on all skill levels. It's definitely a win for casual accessibility - great way to convey information without high level teamwork and communication. The loss of gameplay dynamics only really affects comp, and if it's a server option then enemy health bars are win win.
Loss of gameplay dynamics never "only affects this or that level of play". Its like saying "oh we removed sidearms from our game but dont worry, it only affects comp because over half of people in pub servers never switched to their pistol before they died". There is no logic to it. It affects the way everyone plays, reduces decision making, and removes an element of teamwork, as well as baiting entirely. There is no defense for this.
Why has a change like this been rammed down our throats at this stage in the game? This sort of change should not be done at this stage in the game's lifetime, when i come back to play ns2 i don't want to see everything has been messed up despite threads with near unanimous request for the change not to be made.
One of the biggest challenges to keeping a community of players in a game like ns2 happy is knowing when not to make sweeping changes. Same goes for csgo, neotokyo, whatever have you. Especially if something is as silly and obnocious as healthbars on everyone.
This change and the obvious lack of consideration of the gameplay dynamics this "addition" removes would be enough to write off anyone even considering this change as a bad game designer. It just demonstrates a massive lack of consideration and thought. please get this person or people away from the update servers.
That seems a bit harsh.
You need to consider the impact on all skill levels. It's definitely a win for casual accessibility - great way to convey information without high level teamwork and communication. The loss of gameplay dynamics only really affects comp, and if it's a server option then enemy health bars are win win.
Loss of gameplay dynamics never "only affects this or that level of play". Its like saying "oh we removed sidearms from our game but dont worry, it only affects comp because over half of people in pub servers never switched to their pistol before they died". There is no logic to it. It affects the way everyone plays, reduces decision making, and removes an element of teamwork, as well as baiting entirely. There is no defense for this.
Removing pistols is a terrible example and you know it. This is very different from taking away visible tools.
You don't need to be a brain surgeon to understand this simple concept. Casual players do not know or use information based tactics on any deep level. They do not co-operate the same way a team on vent does. Mechanics always have graded effects based on skill curve.
Comp? There is no comp. The negative side affects anyone who knows more than the very basics.
Whether there is still a comp scene or not has nothing to do with this. I think you've spent too much time in the same circles - you would be surprised how little an actual casual player knows. It's very easy to normalise your own perspective.
Loss of gameplay dynamics never "only affects this or that level of play". Its like saying "oh we removed sidearms from our game but dont worry, it only affects comp because over half of people in pub servers never switched to their pistol before they died". There is no logic to it. It affects the way everyone plays, reduces decision making, and removes an element of teamwork, as well as baiting entirely. There is no defense for this.
Removing pistols is a terrible example and you know it. This is very different from taking away visible tools.
You don't need to be a brain surgeon to understand this simple concept. Casual players do not know or use information based tactics on any deep level. They do not co-operate the same way a team on vent does. Mechanics always have graded effects based on skill curve.
Not true, I play casually and I find information-based tactics to be useful. It's irritating when people incorrectly generalize to promote their own views.
Current balance numbers show quite good balance, slightly in marines favor for 299, but not too much. We will see if changes like focus give aliens a small boost again
@Asraniel , I hope you realize that match outcome percentage is not a good indicator of balance.
Wrong. It's not an optimal indicator, but it's a good shorthand
Loss of gameplay dynamics never "only affects this or that level of play". Its like saying "oh we removed sidearms from our game but dont worry, it only affects comp because over half of people in pub servers never switched to their pistol before they died". There is no logic to it. It affects the way everyone plays, reduces decision making, and removes an element of teamwork, as well as baiting entirely. There is no defense for this.
Removing pistols is a terrible example and you know it. This is very different from taking away visible tools.
You don't need to be a brain surgeon to understand this simple concept. Casual players do not know or use information based tactics on any deep level. They do not co-operate the same way a team on vent does. Mechanics always have graded effects based on skill curve.
Not true, I play casually and I find information-based tactics to be useful. It's irritating when people incorrectly generalize to promote their own views.
I'd argue that no one who is on this forum - or especially has been for a long time - is even close to a casual player, even if they play the game "casually". Take me, for example. I play very casually; only ever pubbed, spent months only playing on Sundays, never play more than a few matches at a time.
I stand no chance against any of the good players here. But even I have been around so long I can absolutely wipe the floor with a bad team in pub. Those are the real casuals. You never hear from them. Most of the time you don't notice them. Just another floor skulk that gave you another quick score bonus.
Anyone who still frequents these forums on a regular basis has long surpassed that stage of the learning curve, internalized all the movement techniques and all the strategies and does all the thinking your average match requires subconsciously.
The "casual player" is not someone who plays infrequently. The "casual player" is someone who picks up the game, plays ten hours, then never looks back.
Loss of gameplay dynamics never "only affects this or that level of play". Its like saying "oh we removed sidearms from our game but dont worry, it only affects comp because over half of people in pub servers never switched to their pistol before they died". There is no logic to it. It affects the way everyone plays, reduces decision making, and removes an element of teamwork, as well as baiting entirely. There is no defense for this.
Removing pistols is a terrible example and you know it. This is very different from taking away visible tools.
You don't need to be a brain surgeon to understand this simple concept. Casual players do not know or use information based tactics on any deep level. They do not co-operate the same way a team on vent does. Mechanics always have graded effects based on skill curve.
Not true, I play casually and I find information-based tactics to be useful. It's irritating when people incorrectly generalize to promote their own views.
Prior to enemy health bars, when was the last time you played a pub and the commander called out the health of lifeforms?
Prior to enemy health bars, when was the last time you played a pub and the commander called out the health of lifeforms?
My teammates (not sure attention if it usually was commander or a teammate that was paying attention/shooting it) would quickly inform everyone that the onos/fade/sometimes lerk is almost dead and a few people would usually chase it down.
Current balance numbers show quite good balance, slightly in marines favor for 299, but not too much. We will see if changes like focus give aliens a small boost again
@Asraniel , I hope you realize that match outcome percentage is not a good indicator of balance.
Wrong. It's not an optimal indicator, but it's a good shorthand
That's what I meant, and I made that point because it was not useful enough for that situation.
Loss of gameplay dynamics never "only affects this or that level of play". Its like saying "oh we removed sidearms from our game but dont worry, it only affects comp because over half of people in pub servers never switched to their pistol before they died". There is no logic to it. It affects the way everyone plays, reduces decision making, and removes an element of teamwork, as well as baiting entirely. There is no defense for this.
Removing pistols is a terrible example and you know it. This is very different from taking away visible tools.
You don't need to be a brain surgeon to understand this simple concept. Casual players do not know or use information based tactics on any deep level. They do not co-operate the same way a team on vent does. Mechanics always have graded effects based on skill curve.
Not true, I play casually and I find information-based tactics to be useful. It's irritating when people incorrectly generalize to promote their own views.
I'd argue that no one who is on this forum - or especially has been for a long time - is even close to a casual player, even if they play the game "casually". Take me, for example. I play very casually; only ever pubbed, spent months only playing on Sundays, never play more than a few matches at a time.
I stand no chance against any of the good players here. But even I have been around so long I can absolutely wipe the floor with a bad team in pub. Those are the real casuals. You never hear from them. Most of the time you don't notice them. Just another floor skulk that gave you another quick score bonus.
Anyone who still frequents these forums on a regular basis has long surpassed that stage of the learning curve, internalized all the movement techniques and all the strategies and does all the thinking your average match requires subconsciously.
The "casual player" is not someone who plays infrequently. The "casual player" is someone who picks up the game, plays ten hours, then never looks back.
(dirty peasants )
So you proved me right then . I specifically said I played casually, not that I was a casual, which means I don't put too much effort into planning my engagements, developing strategies, or coordinating as a team.
Did you misunderstand what I was saying?, because I don't understand why you made that post.
Prior to enemy health bars, when was the last time you played a pub and the commander called out the health of lifeforms?
My teammates (not sure attention if it usually was commander or a teammate that was paying attention/shooting it) would quickly inform everyone that the onos/fade/sometimes lerk is almost dead and a few people would usually chase it down.
Current balance numbers show quite good balance, slightly in marines favor for 299, but not too much. We will see if changes like focus give aliens a small boost again
@Asraniel , I hope you realize that match outcome percentage is not a good indicator of balance.
Wrong. It's not an optimal indicator, but it's a good shorthand
That's what I meant, and I made that point because it was not useful enough for that situation.
Loss of gameplay dynamics never "only affects this or that level of play". Its like saying "oh we removed sidearms from our game but dont worry, it only affects comp because over half of people in pub servers never switched to their pistol before they died". There is no logic to it. It affects the way everyone plays, reduces decision making, and removes an element of teamwork, as well as baiting entirely. There is no defense for this.
Removing pistols is a terrible example and you know it. This is very different from taking away visible tools.
You don't need to be a brain surgeon to understand this simple concept. Casual players do not know or use information based tactics on any deep level. They do not co-operate the same way a team on vent does. Mechanics always have graded effects based on skill curve.
Not true, I play casually and I find information-based tactics to be useful. It's irritating when people incorrectly generalize to promote their own views.
I'd argue that no one who is on this forum - or especially has been for a long time - is even close to a casual player, even if they play the game "casually". Take me, for example. I play very casually; only ever pubbed, spent months only playing on Sundays, never play more than a few matches at a time.
I stand no chance against any of the good players here. But even I have been around so long I can absolutely wipe the floor with a bad team in pub. Those are the real casuals. You never hear from them. Most of the time you don't notice them. Just another floor skulk that gave you another quick score bonus.
Anyone who still frequents these forums on a regular basis has long surpassed that stage of the learning curve, internalized all the movement techniques and all the strategies and does all the thinking your average match requires subconsciously.
The "casual player" is not someone who plays infrequently. The "casual player" is someone who picks up the game, plays ten hours, then never looks back.
(dirty peasants )
So you proved me right then . I specifically said I played casually, not that I was a casual, which means I don't put too much effort into planning my engagements, developing strategies, or coordinating as a team.
Did you misunderstand what I was saying?, because I don't understand why you made that post.
This isn't identity politics. Give yourself the label of a casual all you want, it's still not the class of player we are talking about. Mate, i recognise your name from years back - I'm sorry, but you can't martyr yourself infront of the bus to stop it.
The vast majority of players are the silent majority with <5 hours and basically no fps background, let alone ns1/quake/unreal. It's been years since i played in a pub and the general skill level still hasn't improved alot. Lack of map awareness, don't bullet count, don't work as team, don't para, don't understand pacing, floor lerking etc.
The argument for improving readability is undeniable - NS2 has always been notoriously inaccessible. If you want no enemy health bars, play on a server that supports that.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@elodea
Have you read the arguments against it in this thread? I find it surprising that you'd support such a thing if you had, given your opinions in the past on obscuration and gameplay depth.
And bringing up the only benefit to it - that happens to be pretty damn minimal - without recognizing the impact of the downsides, seems like a shallow position to take when weighing the feature.
Comments
The problem is that because of the last updates the game is less fun and less balanced now. So I would question your design philisophy.
Some people like it. Others (the "pros" who were apparently denied their imaginary chance at fame and multimillion dollar gaming contracts) don't. The majority of the community couldn't care less and just play and have fun regardless. It was a point of discussion on most servers when it was introduced, but most people except the troglodyte zealots who inhabit this forum have moved on.
So much "ivory tower" theoretical nonsense here. Do even half the people whining about the health bar actually play the game?
How is the game "less fun and balanced"? Stats tracking will show that nothing much has changed in terms of the "balance", and as for "fun" how exactly do you measure that objectively?
Give some whingers a keyboard and an unlimited text field and this is what you get: inanity to the power of inanity. Really getting boring now.
#Dealwithit #Getoverit
So if we dislike it that means we must be some kind of reject pros who all think we're good enough for multimillion dollar contacts... What a moronic train of thought there..
News flash.. I'm about as far from the pro mentality you can get, and despite being casual all the way I hate them...
Also I'm pretty sure that poll shows that the majority want them gone. I even hear people complain about them in-game still..
Also stats tracking doesn't always show the whole story...
Wow. Just wow.
Never good to polarize a small playerbase.
Wait are you still talking about that ns2large thing?
First off, ns2large isn't a mod, and it didn't take time to create. It's just a vanilla server with more players.
A mod change the game rules, like combat, like skulks with shotguns, capture the gorge, siege, faded, and so on..
It's considered a mod for the sake of organizing the browser and because adding more players has an obvious effect on the gameplay and framerate.
And no, it's not hidden, it's organized. That's a pretty clear difference no?
"The recent updates" yea except your issue has actually little to do with the recent gameplay updates, you are still complaining about that same browser change that supposedly ""killed off" ns2large servers (along with some story of ddos attack) by preventing some new players from feeding.
But we don't really know for sure whether that's the cause, maybe people simply got bored of it, maybe a 42 player server is just harder to fill, especially in summer?
And even though balance can be approximate at times, not everyone is "pissed" or disliking the changes.
As for the comp scene, it was already dying before the gameplay changes, many of them didn't care that much anymore (beside compulsive complaining), proof being that nobody proposed to maintain compmod and they dismissed the steam beta branch created specifically for the NSL.
The problem is, it's hugely divisive - but it's reasonable to assume that it's not really a dealbreaker to remove it for those who like it/don't care. Whereas, it is a dealbreaker to keep it for those who hate it (at least, much moreso than the former).
The reception to this should have been as obvious as the atmospheric territories thing. Both these instances makes me wonder if the devs actually know their audience (although some of the more recent changes restore my faith).
Anyway, like with the atmospheric territories mod, personally I think it's one of those things where it should be left as a server option or at the very least left open to be modded out. But I'm being told that this is not the case? That modding it out has been disallowed. If that's the case, I think this is a huge huge mistake.
I will continue to play because I enjoy the game and don't care about the change. But what about the change is so crucial to the ns2 experience that you must assert that the game should only be played with this feature? At the cost of so many players too.
I understand the idea of not letting the playerbase hold hostage the features the devs want for the game by allowing them to mod out anything they don't like. But in this case, is this feature really so essential that it's worth the lost players?
If you want to make a point of asserting autonomy over the game's development as it endevours to implement more controversial changes - if that's what's being done - then perhaps choose a moment where it actually matters rather than lose a bunch of players over a silly hp bar feature that's very much a 'take it or leave' it thing as far as features go.
EDIT: Okay apparently the mod just isn't whitelisted for hive score. But that's pretty damn important. While you aren't exactly blocking it, you're not giving people much of a choice as to whether they can use it.
Another True Believer.
Just as there must always be a Stark at Winterfell, this forum must always have a poster who is generally wrong about everything with unwarranted confidence. It used to be Savant, Heatsurge, Res, Imbalanxd(my favourite) and now the mantle has been passed to you. Congratulations.
I don't know what you disagree so passionately about the guy above though. I read his post.
Sure, the changes are "startling" especially since the game had been more or less abandoned (or you may say "final"/"stable"/"maintenance only") for like a year or so, as far as new features go. I think it's good to shake up things a little, it was becoming quite "stale," in a way. Thing is, a lot of the few remaining players liked it stale. When things change, some people are always not going to like them... and you may argue that it indeed "breaks" the comp scene since they rely so much on stability as far as balancing to keep it fair.
On the other hand, let's face it... the game has been down to like 4-5 servers in the US active at the busiest time. For all intents and purposes it's "dead." Meaning it's not going anywhere except slightly down-trending. And you get to play with the same people over and over and over every day... but on the other hand, it's good that people still come to play NS2 after such a long time (including me sometimes). I think the "new dev team" effort is to try to breathe fresh air into the game in hopes of bringing some old players back and gaining a few new players, at the risk of alienating old players... and that's a risk that has already been taken - we're yet to see if it pays off or no.
As far as mods go, it has always been kind of sad for most people the game is not "complete" without NS2+. That's what they're also trying to push against. The game should be "feature complete" without mods... something that should've probably been fixed around the first 6 months of release rather than now :-) .
BTW (on topic) I think I mentioned above I don't like the health bars. In fact, I don't really like the numbers either. I think we should just leave the red hit indicator to make things more interesting.
No one will listen to you unless IronHorse click on "Close Topic "
#FreeInternetCensoredInformation #FeelsBadMan
Looks who back, ran out of games to get banned for hacking on Goliath?
But he has all these accounts!
Right or wrong, hash tags don't, as of yet, help your argument on these forums.
So... do you think we should disregard anybody who liked to watch/play competitive games and make successful mods? And lump me in as a Wooza supporter? How convenient towards your arguments.
Why don't you keep watching passively as NS2 turns into Vanilla. All the work put in Comp + modding... Let it die in 1 week (not a few months as you claim. It literally died in 1 week, probably less).
Actually, that means nothing to you. If you like Vanilla so much, why don't you just shut up and play it? Because you aren't affected by me or anything I'm trying to defend.
One more thing... you are extremely disrespectful. NS2Large was created, maintained and paid for by a content creator. It took blood and sweat AND MONEY to keep it running. You should probably improve your attitude towards the people who work to keep NS2 diverse and active. Shame on you.
One of the biggest challenges to keeping a community of players in a game like ns2 happy is knowing when not to make sweeping changes. Same goes for csgo, neotokyo, whatever have you. Especially if something is as silly and obnocious as healthbars on everyone.
This change and the obvious lack of consideration of the gameplay dynamics this "addition" removes would be enough to write off anyone even considering this change as a bad game designer. It just demonstrates a massive lack of consideration and thought. please get this person or people away from the update servers.
You need to consider the impact on all skill levels. It's definitely a win for casual accessibility - great way to convey information without high level teamwork and communication. The loss of gameplay dynamics only really affects comp, and if it's a server option then enemy health bars are win win.
Loss of gameplay dynamics never "only affects this or that level of play". Its like saying "oh we removed sidearms from our game but dont worry, it only affects comp because over half of people in pub servers never switched to their pistol before they died". There is no logic to it. It affects the way everyone plays, reduces decision making, and removes an element of teamwork, as well as baiting entirely. There is no defense for this.
You don't need to be a brain surgeon to understand this simple concept. Casual players do not know or use information based tactics on any deep level. They do not co-operate the same way a team on vent does. Mechanics always have graded effects based on skill curve.
Whether there is still a comp scene or not has nothing to do with this. I think you've spent too much time in the same circles - you would be surprised how little an actual casual player knows. It's very easy to normalise your own perspective.
Not true, I play casually and I find information-based tactics to be useful. It's irritating when people incorrectly generalize to promote their own views.
Wrong. It's not an optimal indicator, but it's a good shorthand
I'd argue that no one who is on this forum - or especially has been for a long time - is even close to a casual player, even if they play the game "casually". Take me, for example. I play very casually; only ever pubbed, spent months only playing on Sundays, never play more than a few matches at a time.
I stand no chance against any of the good players here. But even I have been around so long I can absolutely wipe the floor with a bad team in pub. Those are the real casuals. You never hear from them. Most of the time you don't notice them. Just another floor skulk that gave you another quick score bonus.
Anyone who still frequents these forums on a regular basis has long surpassed that stage of the learning curve, internalized all the movement techniques and all the strategies and does all the thinking your average match requires subconsciously.
The "casual player" is not someone who plays infrequently. The "casual player" is someone who picks up the game, plays ten hours, then never looks back.
(dirty peasants
very rarely unfortunately
That's what I meant, and I made that point because it was not useful enough for that situation.
So you proved me right then
Did you misunderstand what I was saying?, because I don't understand why you made that post.
The vast majority of players are the silent majority with <5 hours and basically no fps background, let alone ns1/quake/unreal. It's been years since i played in a pub and the general skill level still hasn't improved alot. Lack of map awareness, don't bullet count, don't work as team, don't para, don't understand pacing, floor lerking etc.
The argument for improving readability is undeniable - NS2 has always been notoriously inaccessible. If you want no enemy health bars, play on a server that supports that.
Have you read the arguments against it in this thread? I find it surprising that you'd support such a thing if you had, given your opinions in the past on obscuration and gameplay depth.
And bringing up the only benefit to it - that happens to be pretty damn minimal - without recognizing the impact of the downsides, seems like a shallow position to take when weighing the feature.