@elodea
Have you read the arguments against it in this thread? I find it surprising that you'd support such a thing if you had, given your opinions in the past on obscuration and gameplay depth.
And bringing up the only benefit to it - that happens to be pretty damn minimal - without recognizing the impact of the downsides, seems like a shallow position to take when weighing the feature.
Yep i read them, and joshy is absolutely correct. You know me too well Ironhorse . Far be it for me to deny downsides - there are obvious implications for gameplay depth.
However, as i said earlier the loss of information based tactics does not affect new players very much, which was the point of contention coolitic had with me. It's an accessibility vs depth analysis specific to each point on the skill curve. I wouldn't call it a minimal benefit. If it was a minimal benefit, then there would be minimal downside. Information gain and loss here is zero sum.
With server option to turn it on or off, this just seems like win-win. Either that or rookie only which makes more sense.
If it was a minimal benefit, then there would be minimal downside.
Only if we consider that single factor in a vacuum and none of the others that are involved.
In this case, there's a single minimal benefit that comes with multiple downsides whose impact are arguably subjective.
Not directed to you, but to reiterate the points raised for other readers to catch up on:
If it reduces higher skilled gameplay tactics, adds obscuration and increases the skill floor to play aliens - is it really worth the minimal impact of not needing to learn TTK timings?
I'd assume players would have a rough understanding of that after they move out of Rookie Only servers (~20 hours/80 games on avg)..
And is learning TTK timings really that crucial? I would think knowing the priority of targets would be far more important, and then just keep focused on them until dead?
why are we wasting precious time arguing about things blind ppl can see. It's just not funny anymore. You had your troll time, now remove the damn things!
If it was a minimal benefit, then there would be minimal downside.
Only if we consider that single factor in a vacuum and none of the others that are involved.
In this case, there's a single minimal benefit that comes with multiple downsides whose impact are arguably subjective.
The benefit = sum(downsides).
If it is harder to bluff, that is a benefit to the other person. Same for baiting, same for meat shielding, easier tracking etc etc. It is literally zero sum.
Fact is you acquired skills in this game over years that you can not transfer to other games. HP bars negate 5 of em. who ever thought it was a great idea has no clue about game design and has no bussiness of fiddleing with NS2.
Right now your only focus is to make the game more appealing for new players. you destroyed what you had (wooza's, comp scene with rookie servers, play now, rappid patches) and try to artificially recreate it with systems not meant to be in NS2 to benefit ppl that will never find thier way into the game on that ground only.
You focus SHOULD be. keeping longterm players paying cusomers and turnung the new ones into them.. cuz you have WAY more vets than rooks.
you touched a perfectly running system... well I have to say the game quality for the vet pubs is on an all time high ... don't see many new faces tho.
It's not pulled out of anyones ass when ppl legitimately say, you're killing the game.
The benefit = sum(downsides). […]It is literally zero sum.
Maybe it is zero-sum in this specific instance, but in general I don't think this is true. You can have gameplay changes which affect both teams equally (not oppositely), or affect one team more than another. Then there is the user experience, which also isn't necessarily balanced for each team. By this I mean that you can find something to be unfun on both teams (as giver and receiver). And hopefully the goal of the game is that fun for one team does not detract from the other teams' fun, and both sides can be made more enjoyable.
I find healthbars make the game less fun for me all around, so they have been off since day one. For a while I was quietly annoyed that other people could still have them on and see my health, but mostly I have forgotten about that.
How about looking at it from a community perspective.
What's the sum benefit of pissing off a significant part of your core playerbase in order to try and increase the player retention rate? remi says the effects HP bars have had are "positive", I'm sure he has clear hard facts to back this up, right? @remi
How about looking at it from a community perspective.
What's the sum benefit of pissing off a significant part of your core playerbase in order to try and increase the player retention rate? remi says the effects HP bars have had are "positive", I'm sure he has clear hard facts to back this up, right? @remi
I am pretty sure he thinks that comp or veteran players quitting the game is a positive thing because rookies won't get pubstomped then anymore.
Also I doubt you will get those "clear hard facts" because only positive feedback is getting answered.
This change does not make the game any rookie friendly, as veteran i can clearly see the immense impact this has on my gameplay. I don't even need aura anymore as an alien, just spit or shoot and i pick out the weak ones.
Remove HP bar and give it to rookies only, we really need back the fog of war.
Sigh, this still going on? Well than, one more time in a short text to explain the issue why health bars in this way are poorly implemented...
The way it is implemented right now, experienced players benefit A LOT MORE than newbies, widening the skill gap even more...
- And stuff about faking low hp, bluffing with low hp has been utterly destroyed
Also the backlog of this failed concept has perfect suggestions to indeed implement something similar, but improved... That was ignored...
This line of thinking is inaccurate.
The goal is accessibility, not squished equality between players. You cannot argue against better readability by saying experienced players benefit as a result. If that was your yard stick, you wouldn't be able to move beyond a game that was entirely a black screen. Totally inaccessible but indiscriminate regardless of your skill level.
Let's say the game randomly put fog and smoke effects in your player camera that blocked your vision. Removing them will absolutely benefit experienced players more than inexperienced, yet i would hope we would agree that it would be a beneficial change for increasing accessibility.
The only question that matters is whether the benefit is worth the loss in depth. At low skill levels, this seems to be the case. At high skill levels, this seems not to be the case.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2016
Right, so people who can actually aim, now know which targets to prioritize with 100% accurate feedback don't benefit way more than a random newbie or somewhat average player...
the thing is @elodea, experience players can use this 100% accurate feedback to decimate an enemy team, while newbies will still struggle to do so and can't exploit this as effectively. Not even mentioning the fact that if your HP is now know to the enemy, you are more screwed as a newbie who has trouble doing HP/AP management compared to a more experience player who counts bullets, keeps an eye on energie and enemy reload sounds, while having instant feedback on enemy HP
Right, so people who can actually aim, now know which targets to prioritize with 100% accurate feedback don't benefit way more than a random newbie or somewhat average player...
the thing is @elodea, experience players can use this 100% accurate feedback to decimate an enemy team, while newbies will still struggle to do so and can't exploit this as effectively. Not even mentioning the fact that if your HP is now know to the enemy, you are more screwed as a newbie who has trouble doing HP/AP management compared to a more experience player who counts bullets, keeps an eye on energie and now has instant feedback on enemy HP
Laughable at best m8, try again
I'm not denying that they didn't benefit way more. Kouji, i remembered you to be really reasonable and friendly, so i'm puzzled why you are straw manning me without readiing what i'm saying.
I am only saying that this experienced player multiplier effect cannot be used to argue against increased readability.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
If it widens the skillgap it most certainly is a point of concern, which this instant hovering information tooltip causes and is much more exploitable by experience players...
As I said, there are much better suggestions in this thread and the others about HP feedback that will work much better and not have this insane gamebreaking effect. But why are we still discussing this and they stubbornly still refuse to admit their mistakes. The choice has been made and better models have been scrapped (read: ignored) for this failed concept...
If it widens the skillgap it most certainly is a point of concern, which this instant hovering information tooltip causes and is much more exploitable by experience players...
As I said, there are much better suggestions in this thread and the others about HP feedback that will work much better and not have this insane gamebreaking effect. But why are we still discussing this and they stubbornly still refuse to admit their mistakes. The choice has been made and better models have been scrapped (read: ignored) for this failed concept...
Isn't the entire premise of NS2 great depth as reflected in skill gaps?
i'm all for trying new things with the game, but this just makes it feel too easy. Shooting fish in a barrel. I prioritize enemies, know whether to chase them or not or pistol whip. Can take focus instead of aura.
It's great for stomping...
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2016
@elodea You do realize the entire way enemies are tracked (aiming skill gap) is now is completely upturned with these big "shoot/bite here signs" and the instant HP/AP feedback has a lot of issues...
Aura has no point anymore
Dark rooms are close to a non issue (aliens lost their cammo)
Lerks tickling away with spikes now get 100% accurate feedback which they shouldn't have
Fake retreating to ambush has been removed
Bluff attacking has been removed
Not even mentioning to some extent, the UI has been cluttered in a game that already has way too many visual obscuring stuff
And the skillgap has artificially widened between experienced players and newbies, mostly because it is now easier to track and aim so the survivability of newbies is much much lower, while it is easier for experience players to decimate enemies on the other end of the spectrum...
What has happened is that the skill ceiling has actually been lowered significantly, but newbies can't enjoy themselves because they still get decimated if a somewhat better players steps onto the field with all this extra instant information.
So yeah, skill gap has widened artificially, while the skill ceiling has been lowered and is sadly more accessible for the more experienced players. This sounds like a contradiction, but if you've drawn that conclusion, read again
Here's the thing, it's true the skill floor has also been lowered, but that has no bearing, because newbies will be decimated left and right, due to the also much lower skill ceiling.
In short:
Skill floor lowered, skill ceiling lowered
Skill gap between newbies and experience players is now artificially a lot bigger because the ceiling is too low.
And it's a damn shame this simple issue somehow eludes them dev type people
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2016
Brings me to the "noob tube" that NS2 needs, this HP/AP bar stuff looks like one, but it actually a wrongly implemented one...
Noob tubes are a game element easy to use for newbies to get kills or get a small advantage, while VASTLY less effective than other more skill driven weapons or tools
As I said, the experienced players can use this HP/AP information WAY more effectively than newbies and will decimate. THAT is quite the opposite of what a "noobtube" should accomplish!
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I can only but agree. The more I play with these bars the more I think they are a bad idea beyond reason.
Its still nice (but quite possibly OP) for a commander, but field players should never have that power.
I can only but agree. The more I play with these bars the more I think they are a bad idea beyond reason.
Its still nice (but quite possibly OP) for a commander, but field players should never have that power.
It cheapens the feel of the game. I guess UWE doesn't care about that, but a lot of people seem to disagree with this change. I still don't see why they can't try something different.
This is how I would describe this change while relating it to another change that was made recently. On the tactical gamer server, they have this feature where when one team concedes, the other team has a fun jog to the enemies team command station or hive to procede to sit there and whack it until it dies. This is because they want people to feel the experience of making the other team's structure go poof before the game ends. Now Remi, you wisely did not add this to the regular game. You guys made a climatic animation of the command station being destroyed or the hive blowing up. But at least people in all servers don't have to take that nice jog which feels ridiculous.
Now we have the health bars, to me it's a similar thing. It feels like a tactical gamer change, but not a change for the community of NS2. Look at this thread, make an adjustment like you did with the concede function. This doesn't have to be a tactical gamer change, please try something else.
@Kouji_San Look, I absolutely understand the frustration at enemy health bars destroying higher level tactics and fun. Infact, i agree with you on that issue.
The only reason i decided to pop by was because i recognised something that I used to suffer from too. You guys are almost religiously passionate, which is awesome but can sometimes be detrimental to the ability to think objectively from outside the ns2 ecosphere where new players come from. I'm just trying to offer an outsider perspective.
On the issue of how this affects low skill players,
So yeah, skill gap has widened artificially, while the skill ceiling has been lowered and is sadly more accessible for the more experienced players. This sounds like a contradiction, but if you've drawn that conclusion, read again
I can't see how this isn't a contradiction. If everyone has the same toolset, the skill gap cannot widen with a significantly lowering skill ceiling unless low skill players require significantly more skill to perform the exact same task. You're incorrectly conflating relative power with absolute power. Again, if the only yard stick is relative power, then the best solution is to have a constant black screen, built in aimbot, or any number of silly things. Enemy hp bars shifts everyone up even though it shifts some more than others.
And it's a damn shame this simple issue somehow eludes them dev type people
Maybe enemy health bars is really really bad, but if there isn't much good reasoning going into the effect on casual low skill players, how can one expect to come up with good solutions let alone convince the devs?
@Kouji_San Look, I absolutely understand the frustration at enemy health bars destroying higher level tactics and fun. Infact, i agree with you on that issue.
The only reason i decided to pop by was because i recognised something that I used to suffer from too. You guys are almost religiously passionate, which is awesome but can sometimes be detrimental to the ability to think objectively from outside the ns2 ecosphere where new players come from. I'm just trying to offer an outsider perspective.
On the issue of how this affects low skill players,
So yeah, skill gap has widened artificially, while the skill ceiling has been lowered and is sadly more accessible for the more experienced players. This sounds like a contradiction, but if you've drawn that conclusion, read again
I can't see how this isn't a contradiction. If everyone has the same toolset, the skill gap cannot widen with a significantly lowering skill ceiling unless low skill players require significantly more skill to perform the exact same task. You're incorrectly conflating relative power with absolute power. Again, if the only yard stick is relative power, then the best solution is to have a constant black screen, built in aimbot, or any number of silly things. Enemy hp bars shifts everyone up even though it shifts some more than others.
You really don't seem to get the non-contradiction there... If you give slightly better players a lower skill ceiling, this means that better players can exploit that lowered skill ceiling even better and break newbie spirits... "noobtube without downsides in terms of skill"
The thing is that this instant 100% accurate information about enemy health is the issue here...
Newbies don't really use it, yet are affected by it the worst due to no energy/bullet & HP/AP management
Slightly above newbie status can already exploit it to some extent
Vets and above simply decimate anything apart from let's say DIV1 players much easier
DIV1 players (the godlikes), they can use this even more and run a server into the ground even easier (do we even still have DIV* players left BTW?)
So by lowering this ceiling, you give way too much power to the better players to the point the lower skill floor has no bearing. Instead of what the intended purpose was, giving lower skilled players feedback about damage output. But THAT is exactly where the skillgap widens, while on paper you've made the floor and ceiling lower, it backfires in the hands of anyone who can shoot slightly better and exponentially gets better in the hands of capable to godlikes.
Dark rooms are close to a non issue (aliens lost their cammo)
Lerks tickling away with spikes now get 100% accurate feedback which they shouldn't have
Fake retreating to ambush has been removed
Bluff attacking has been removed
Not even mentioning to some extent, the UI has been cluttered in a game that already has way too many visual obscuring stuff
Then you'll have to rework Aura. Changes always have knock on effects, the question is always how much are you willing to tolerate.
Only once they are spotted, exactly like camo.
You might be right, but the argument you used to get there is just a statement. Why shouldn't they? At what % accuracy is this ok?
We talked about this, low skill players arn't affected
We talked about this, low skill players arn't affected
This contradicts your second point about the role of visual obscuration when tracking. There is also the menu option to turn it off.
Why fix something which wasn't broken (NS alien hud was also superior in the way it relayed information)
I didn't mean the cammo ability, I was talking about the visibility in dark rooms once tagged making tracking easier despite of the darkness
Really? Lerks spike, tag enemy instant feedback tell the team. That stuff is too much information to have about the enemy, it's too damn accurate info...
No of course not, but high level play is a stump now, there goes you depth
^
Contradict, you keep using that word, I don't think you understand what it means No but on a serious note, it doesn't! They keep adding visual clutter and newbies don't even understand a simple server browser "ALL" button, killing certain mods yep I went there. So going into the "advanced" menu to tweak a certain hud element, which actually benefits more than if you disable it in any case... I don't see that menu adventure happening...
And it's a damn shame this simple issue somehow eludes them dev type people
Maybe enemy health bars is really really bad, but if there isn't much good reasoning going into the effect on casual low skill players, how can one expect to come up with good solutions let alone convince the devs?
I can't be arsed to look them up, but there were some jewels by experience vets who know the game's ins and outs in the other threads, which got completely ignored for "reasons"
Also I'm done arguing in circles, it seems that's the cool thing to do on these here forums. Arguing for the sake of, while one has a point and one is just nitpicking semantics.
I can't see how this isn't a contradiction. If everyone has the same toolset, the skill gap cannot widen with a significantly lowering skill ceiling unless low skill players require significantly more skill to perform the exact same task
That italicized portion is exactly what is happening, though. This raises the skill floor.. requiring a greater amount of skill to adequately play aliens.
Even I have had to drastically change how I play lerk.. I have to be much more cautious, evasive, and can rarely aggro.
[*] Then you'll have to rework Aura. Changes always have knock on effects, the question is always how much are you willing to tolerate.
[/list]
One of the things this most annoys about me is that not only does this change work very poorly for ns2, now they are changing ns2 to something else just to make healthbars work. Whoever is working on this is some kind of obsessive dota fan and wants ns2 to be dota. ns2 is not dota, stop making the game something other than i paid for.
If your one change requires you to change the entire game to compensate for, in addition to a majority of the community voting agianst that change, its a BAD CHANGE. Full stop, no takebacksies, no recoveries.
I'll keep repeating that the person who made the decision to not only make the change, but the ignore the community and keep the change, should be fired and working on his own projects where he is free to ruin his own vision.
I can't see how this isn't a contradiction. If everyone has the same toolset, the skill gap cannot widen with a significantly lowering skill ceiling unless low skill players require significantly more skill to perform the exact same task
That italicized portion is exactly what is happening, though. This raises the skill floor.. requiring a greater amount of skill to adequately play aliens.
Even I have had to drastically change how I play lerk.. I have to be much more cautious, evasive, and can rarely aggro.
Your example only looks at one side and presents it like there isn't any change on the marine side. It also seems to be contradictory to statements saying enemy health bars are a benefit to lerk play since you have 100% accurate information etc. You guys are just throwing out any argument in the moment and forgetting how it makes all your previous premises inconsistent. It really is less skill required to perform the exact same task - how else do you explain a lower skill ceiling? Denying that it affects in the same direction at both ends is like saying 10+10 = 20, but 1+1 = 0.
I'm just going to plug in your own arguments just to make this as clear as possible, one for each race.
Situation A (no enemy hp): The alien bluffs the new player
Situation B (enemy hp): The new player cannot be bluffed because they don't need to learn alien hp or rely on skilful communication etc.
--
Situation A (no enemy hp): The new player doesn't know how to bite count, if he can kill the marine with parasite, or if the marine is low health or not.
Situation B (enemy hp): The new player now has information to make these decisions without requiring experience and minimap awareness etc.
Again, if you guys want to see any change, your best bet is to properly address the accessibility and low skill player component.
If your one change requires you to change the entire game to compensate for, in addition to a majority of the community voting agianst that change, its a BAD CHANGE. Full stop, no takebacksies, no recoveries.
I'm not going to judge whether redesigning aura is tolerable or not, but to say this amounts to changing the entire game is a bit hyperbole.
*It seems obvious to me that enemy hp bars benefit low skill players, and if you guys don't see that I don't see much reason to labour the point. All the best with ns3 or whatever you guys are up to.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
While I am not in the ballpark of 'lets fire people' I fully concur that its unwise to change the game to accommodate a change which is not really needed to begin with.
I can't see how this isn't a contradiction. If everyone has the same toolset, the skill gap cannot widen with a significantly lowering skill ceiling unless low skill players require significantly more skill to perform the exact same task
That italicized portion is exactly what is happening, though. This raises the skill floor.. requiring a greater amount of skill to adequately play aliens.
Even I have had to drastically change how I play lerk.. I have to be much more cautious, evasive, and can rarely aggro.
Your example only looks at one side and presents it like there isn't any change on the marine side. It also seems to be contradictory to statements saying enemy health bars are a benefit to lerk play since you have 100% accurate information etc. You guys are just throwing out any argument in the moment and forgetting how it makes all your previous premises inconsistent. It really is less skill required to perform the exact same task - how else do you explain a lower skill ceiling? Denying that it affects in the same direction at both ends is like saying 10+10 = 20, but 1+1 = 0.
I'm just going to plug in your own arguments just to make this as clear as possible, one for each race.
Situation A (no enemy hp): The alien bluffs the new player
Situation B (enemy hp): The new player cannot be bluffed because they don't need to learn alien hp or rely on skilful communication etc.
--
Situation A (no enemy hp): The new player doesn't know how to bite count, if he can kill the marine with parasite, or if the marine is low health or not.
Situation B (enemy hp): The new player now has information to make these decisions without requiring experience and minimap awareness etc.
Again, if you guys want to see any change, your best bet is to properly address the accessibility and low skill player component.
If your one change requires you to change the entire game to compensate for, in addition to a majority of the community voting agianst that change, its a BAD CHANGE. Full stop, no takebacksies, no recoveries.
I'm not going to judge whether redesigning aura is tolerable or not, but to say this amounts to changing the entire game is a bit hyperbole.
*It seems obvious to me that enemy hp bars benefit low skill players, and if you guys don't see that I don't see much reason to labour the point. All the best with ns3 or whatever you guys are up to.
The thing is, for both Situations B you've described, a new player will still bite the dust when facing experienced players, regardless of HP bars. Because new players are weaker in terms of aim/movement, they will never be able to take as much advantage of the HP bars as someone who is a lot more skilled. Yes, the HP bars benefit new players in some aspects, but it benefits experienced players a whole lot more. That's what everyone has been saying all this time.
The gain for new players is minimal. The gain for experienced players is significant. -> increasing skill gap while decreasing skill ceiling
Comments
However, as i said earlier the loss of information based tactics does not affect new players very much, which was the point of contention coolitic had with me. It's an accessibility vs depth analysis specific to each point on the skill curve. I wouldn't call it a minimal benefit. If it was a minimal benefit, then there would be minimal downside. Information gain and loss here is zero sum.
With server option to turn it on or off, this just seems like win-win. Either that or rookie only which makes more sense.
Only if we consider that single factor in a vacuum and none of the others that are involved.
In this case, there's a single minimal benefit that comes with multiple downsides whose impact are arguably subjective.
Not directed to you, but to reiterate the points raised for other readers to catch up on:
If it reduces higher skilled gameplay tactics, adds obscuration and increases the skill floor to play aliens - is it really worth the minimal impact of not needing to learn TTK timings?
I'd assume players would have a rough understanding of that after they move out of Rookie Only servers (~20 hours/80 games on avg)..
And is learning TTK timings really that crucial? I would think knowing the priority of targets would be far more important, and then just keep focused on them until dead?
If it is harder to bluff, that is a benefit to the other person. Same for baiting, same for meat shielding, easier tracking etc etc. It is literally zero sum.
Right now your only focus is to make the game more appealing for new players. you destroyed what you had (wooza's, comp scene with rookie servers, play now, rappid patches) and try to artificially recreate it with systems not meant to be in NS2 to benefit ppl that will never find thier way into the game on that ground only.
You focus SHOULD be. keeping longterm players paying cusomers and turnung the new ones into them.. cuz you have WAY more vets than rooks.
you touched a perfectly running system... well I have to say the game quality for the vet pubs is on an all time high
It's not pulled out of anyones ass when ppl legitimately say, you're killing the game.
Maybe it is zero-sum in this specific instance, but in general I don't think this is true. You can have gameplay changes which affect both teams equally (not oppositely), or affect one team more than another. Then there is the user experience, which also isn't necessarily balanced for each team. By this I mean that you can find something to be unfun on both teams (as giver and receiver). And hopefully the goal of the game is that fun for one team does not detract from the other teams' fun, and both sides can be made more enjoyable.
I find healthbars make the game less fun for me all around, so they have been off since day one. For a while I was quietly annoyed that other people could still have them on and see my health, but mostly I have forgotten about that.
A skulk behind is impossible to target.
What's the sum benefit of pissing off a significant part of your core playerbase in order to try and increase the player retention rate? remi says the effects HP bars have had are "positive", I'm sure he has clear hard facts to back this up, right? @remi
Also I doubt you will get those "clear hard facts" because only positive feedback is getting answered.
The loss of a loyal and dedicated demographic should never be viewed as a positive thing.
The way it is implemented right now, experienced players benefit A LOT MORE than newbies, widening the skill gap even more...
- And stuff about faking low hp, bluffing with low hp has been utterly destroyed
Also the backlog of this failed concept has perfect suggestions to indeed implement something similar, but improved... That was ignored...
Remove HP bar and give it to rookies only, we really need back the fog of war.
The goal is accessibility, not squished equality between players. You cannot argue against better readability by saying experienced players benefit as a result. If that was your yard stick, you wouldn't be able to move beyond a game that was entirely a black screen. Totally inaccessible but indiscriminate regardless of your skill level.
Let's say the game randomly put fog and smoke effects in your player camera that blocked your vision. Removing them will absolutely benefit experienced players more than inexperienced, yet i would hope we would agree that it would be a beneficial change for increasing accessibility.
The only question that matters is whether the benefit is worth the loss in depth. At low skill levels, this seems to be the case. At high skill levels, this seems not to be the case.
the thing is @elodea, experience players can use this 100% accurate feedback to decimate an enemy team, while newbies will still struggle to do so and can't exploit this as effectively. Not even mentioning the fact that if your HP is now know to the enemy, you are more screwed as a newbie who has trouble doing HP/AP management compared to a more experience player who counts bullets, keeps an eye on energie and enemy reload sounds, while having instant feedback on enemy HP
Laughable at best m8, try again
I am only saying that this experienced player multiplier effect cannot be used to argue against increased readability.
As I said, there are much better suggestions in this thread and the others about HP feedback that will work much better and not have this insane gamebreaking effect. But why are we still discussing this and they stubbornly still refuse to admit their mistakes. The choice has been made and better models have been scrapped (read: ignored) for this failed concept...
It's great for stomping...
And the skillgap has artificially widened between experienced players and newbies, mostly because it is now easier to track and aim so the survivability of newbies is much much lower, while it is easier for experience players to decimate enemies on the other end of the spectrum...
What has happened is that the skill ceiling has actually been lowered significantly, but newbies can't enjoy themselves because they still get decimated if a somewhat better players steps onto the field with all this extra instant information.
So yeah, skill gap has widened artificially, while the skill ceiling has been lowered and is sadly more accessible for the more experienced players. This sounds like a contradiction, but if you've drawn that conclusion, read again
Here's the thing, it's true the skill floor has also been lowered, but that has no bearing, because newbies will be decimated left and right, due to the also much lower skill ceiling.
In short:
And it's a damn shame this simple issue somehow eludes them dev type people
Noob tubes are a game element easy to use for newbies to get kills or get a small advantage, while VASTLY less effective than other more skill driven weapons or tools
As I said, the experienced players can use this HP/AP information WAY more effectively than newbies and will decimate. THAT is quite the opposite of what a "noobtube" should accomplish!
Double post!!! I ain't even sorry
Its still nice (but quite possibly OP) for a commander, but field players should never have that power.
It cheapens the feel of the game. I guess UWE doesn't care about that, but a lot of people seem to disagree with this change. I still don't see why they can't try something different.
This is how I would describe this change while relating it to another change that was made recently. On the tactical gamer server, they have this feature where when one team concedes, the other team has a fun jog to the enemies team command station or hive to procede to sit there and whack it until it dies. This is because they want people to feel the experience of making the other team's structure go poof before the game ends. Now Remi, you wisely did not add this to the regular game. You guys made a climatic animation of the command station being destroyed or the hive blowing up. But at least people in all servers don't have to take that nice jog which feels ridiculous.
Now we have the health bars, to me it's a similar thing. It feels like a tactical gamer change, but not a change for the community of NS2. Look at this thread, make an adjustment like you did with the concede function. This doesn't have to be a tactical gamer change, please try something else.
The only reason i decided to pop by was because i recognised something that I used to suffer from too. You guys are almost religiously passionate, which is awesome but can sometimes be detrimental to the ability to think objectively from outside the ns2 ecosphere where new players come from. I'm just trying to offer an outsider perspective.
On the issue of how this affects low skill players, I can't see how this isn't a contradiction. If everyone has the same toolset, the skill gap cannot widen with a significantly lowering skill ceiling unless low skill players require significantly more skill to perform the exact same task. You're incorrectly conflating relative power with absolute power. Again, if the only yard stick is relative power, then the best solution is to have a constant black screen, built in aimbot, or any number of silly things. Enemy hp bars shifts everyone up even though it shifts some more than others.
- Then you'll have to rework Aura. Changes always have knock on effects, the question is always how much are you willing to tolerate.
- Only once they are spotted, exactly like camo.
- You might be right, but the argument you used to get there is just a statement. Why shouldn't they? At what % accuracy is this ok?
- We talked about this, low skill players arn't affected
- We talked about this, low skill players arn't affected
- This contradicts your second point about the role of visual obscuration when tracking. There is also the menu option to turn it off.
Maybe enemy health bars is really really bad, but if there isn't much good reasoning going into the effect on casual low skill players, how can one expect to come up with good solutions let alone convince the devs?You really don't seem to get the non-contradiction there... If you give slightly better players a lower skill ceiling, this means that better players can exploit that lowered skill ceiling even better and break newbie spirits... "noobtube without downsides in terms of skill"
The thing is that this instant 100% accurate information about enemy health is the issue here...
So by lowering this ceiling, you give way too much power to the better players to the point the lower skill floor has no bearing. Instead of what the intended purpose was, giving lower skilled players feedback about damage output. But THAT is exactly where the skillgap widens, while on paper you've made the floor and ceiling lower, it backfires in the hands of anyone who can shoot slightly better and exponentially gets better in the hands of capable to godlikes.
I can't be arsed to look them up, but there were some jewels by experience vets who know the game's ins and outs in the other threads, which got completely ignored for "reasons"
Also I'm done arguing in circles, it seems that's the cool thing to do on these here forums. Arguing for the sake of, while one has a point and one is just nitpicking semantics.
Even I have had to drastically change how I play lerk.. I have to be much more cautious, evasive, and can rarely aggro.
If your one change requires you to change the entire game to compensate for, in addition to a majority of the community voting agianst that change, its a BAD CHANGE. Full stop, no takebacksies, no recoveries.
I'll keep repeating that the person who made the decision to not only make the change, but the ignore the community and keep the change, should be fired and working on his own projects where he is free to ruin his own vision.
I'm just going to plug in your own arguments just to make this as clear as possible, one for each race.
Situation A (no enemy hp): The alien bluffs the new player
Situation B (enemy hp): The new player cannot be bluffed because they don't need to learn alien hp or rely on skilful communication etc.
--
Situation A (no enemy hp): The new player doesn't know how to bite count, if he can kill the marine with parasite, or if the marine is low health or not.
Situation B (enemy hp): The new player now has information to make these decisions without requiring experience and minimap awareness etc.
Again, if you guys want to see any change, your best bet is to properly address the accessibility and low skill player component.
I'm not going to judge whether redesigning aura is tolerable or not, but to say this amounts to changing the entire game is a bit hyperbole.
*It seems obvious to me that enemy hp bars benefit low skill players, and if you guys don't see that I don't see much reason to labour the point. All the best with ns3 or whatever you guys are up to.
The thing is, for both Situations B you've described, a new player will still bite the dust when facing experienced players, regardless of HP bars. Because new players are weaker in terms of aim/movement, they will never be able to take as much advantage of the HP bars as someone who is a lot more skilled. Yes, the HP bars benefit new players in some aspects, but it benefits experienced players a whole lot more. That's what everyone has been saying all this time.
The gain for new players is minimal. The gain for experienced players is significant. -> increasing skill gap while decreasing skill ceiling