Nothing stops them from adding the HMG to vanilla, that's totally up to UWE. They basically have the ability to use any of the code from CompMod freely in NS2 at this point. However coding a hook based mod to reduce chances of it breaking doesn't make for good copy/paste into vanilla, so its probably more some of the ideas that are valuable over the code.
As for maintaining it, HAD someone stepped up that was dependable and trustworthy (you have to remember that this mod was used in a league) I would have handed it over. Sure its not a huge league, but given the problems we had with even internal league players cheating, the potential for abuse was huge... No one 'stepped' up in even the most basic of a sense. I know some people felt pretty jaded when I pulled the mods to bring attention to many things (one of which was this exact issue)... I had told most people who I felt could get the word out best and would only ask people that were trustworthy.. But being away from the community so much I really didn't have good connections anymore. At that point I really didn't have much of a recourse, and my free time was just about down to a minimum. I cant really just take some time and dedicate it to updating a mod when I am constantly getting called for support, or sitting in on meetings in the office until 5 AM for migrations around the globe I am responsible for.
I have never asked the community for anything, nor have I ever complained about doing work or updates for NS2 mods... But the attitude of many people after all of this was downright shameful, and was extremely irritating to listen to... At some point I decided I no longer cared at all and probably overreacted on a few things.. but at this point whats done is done. I have very little sympathy for what is left of the competitive community after everything... Far too many people that will complain about the state of something endlessly yet not be willing to put in any effort to correct it.
As for updating CompMod, currently probably wouldn't be that hard (it does technically work right now I believe) but the constant shifting balance kind of renders it pointless... Even with someone to update it the NSL would be in trouble, since you would either be un-doing all the current balance changes, or working with a new 'balance team' to adjust them as needed for comp play... something we always tried to avoid mid-season. There really isn't a good option afaik. Probably the best course of action would be to design a smaller 'Essential Comp Mod' which just disables or adds the absolute minimum things needed (like tRes eggs I imagine), but again that involves some one dedicating time to create such a mod, and still would have the season balance in flux.
To the people that responded to me on the last page - don't get me wrong, I am vehemently against the new, faster update cycle; mods breaking being one of the reasons. I'll gladly take up "makes it harder to balance compmod" as another one.
I have very little sympathy for what is left of the competitive community after everything... Far too many people that will complain about the state of something endlessly yet not be willing to put in any effort to correct it.
To the people that responded to me on the last page - don't get me wrong, I am vehemently against the new, faster update cycle; mods breaking being one of the reasons. I'll gladly take up "makes it harder to balance compmod" as another one.
A special branch of ns2 has been created about a month ago, so that the nsl can play their season without interupts. You can activate it in steam at the same place that you activate the beta branch. In theory that would be the perfect solution for conpetitive play, but somehow nobody uses it.
To the people that responded to me on the last page - don't get me wrong, I am vehemently against the new, faster update cycle; mods breaking being one of the reasons. I'll gladly take up "makes it harder to balance compmod" as another one.
A special branch of ns2 has been created about a month ago, so that the nsl can play their season without interupts. You can activate it in steam at the same place that you activate the beta branch. In theory that would be the perfect solution for conpetitive play, but somehow nobody uses it.
Copy and Pasted from Ensl.org Written by Simba:
Using this will be very difficult to do and coordinate. As such, we have decided that it is not a realistic option. Reasons:
Coordinating 150 players to switch to a separate branch of NS2 is annoying and painful for each person to do. Some people will refuse to do this, and might force match forfeits as a result. Some may have technical difficulties.
Coordinating modders to have versions of their mod that is compatible with our branch is going to be difficult. We would have to get versions of comp-mod, nsl mod, and ns2+ working at the minimum.
Coordinating server operators to switch to use the right branch of NS2 and the right branch of mods will be a logistical nightmare. Any technical difficulties are going to take a lot of time to resolve, and we're all volunteers here.
To the people that responded to me on the last page - don't get me wrong, I am vehemently against the new, faster update cycle; mods breaking being one of the reasons. I'll gladly take up "makes it harder to balance compmod" as another one.
A special branch of ns2 has been created about a month ago, so that the nsl can play their season without interupts. You can activate it in steam at the same place that you activate the beta branch. In theory that would be the perfect solution for conpetitive play, but somehow nobody uses it.
Copy and Pasted from Ensl.org Written by Simba:
Using this will be very difficult to do and coordinate. As such, we have decided that it is not a realistic option. Reasons:
Coordinating 150 players to switch to a separate branch of NS2 is annoying and painful for each person to do. Some people will refuse to do this, and might force match forfeits as a result. Some may have technical difficulties.
Coordinating modders to have versions of their mod that is compatible with our branch is going to be difficult. We would have to get versions of comp-mod, nsl mod, and ns2+ working at the minimum.
Coordinating server operators to switch to use the right branch of NS2 and the right branch of mods will be a logistical nightmare. Any technical difficulties are going to take a lot of time to resolve, and we're all volunteers here.
Copy and Pasted from Ensl.org Written by Simba:
Using this will be very difficult to do and coordinate. As such, we have decided that it is not a realistic option. Reasons:
Coordinating 150 players to switch to a separate branch of NS2 is annoying and painful for each person to do. Some people will refuse to do this, and might force match forfeits as a result. Some may have technical difficulties.
Coordinating modders to have versions of their mod that is compatible with our branch is going to be difficult. We would have to get versions of comp-mod, nsl mod, and ns2+ working at the minimum.
Coordinating server operators to switch to use the right branch of NS2 and the right branch of mods will be a logistical nightmare. Any technical difficulties are going to take a lot of time to resolve, and we're all volunteers here.
1) I remember some games ns2 included that have a choice box on startup
(back in the days it was the choice between the launch pad and start ns2)
looks like that:
Can we not have the same for NS2 comp and NS2 instead of a different branches ?
2) Or a starting parameter for "ns2.exe -comp" to launch in comp mod.
With both possibility's:
The Patch size will increases but its a 1 time download.
instead of switching Branches that makes multiple downloads.
Its better for people with slow internet/volume based internet or no ssds/Slow Pcs.
leave alone the time you have to take to always switch back and forth in branches every time you want to switch to NS2 or Comp.
Sorry for Derailing now to the Health Bars:
Other Games have Healtbars too and i agree it makes it easier to track/aim.
But you got to see the whole picture if its tweaked it can help closing the skill gap cause of easier aiming/tracking.
beside the easy and fast information it provides which you not always have time to communicate in the heat of battle because the voice chat is blocked already or there is simply not enough time.
I don't know how to explain it exactly, but I feel like this really made playing lerk or fade drastically less fun. especially when harassing marine backlines, feels like a huge disadvantage when facing marines if you are not at full hp.
playing marines with this hax isnt really fun either.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2016
@Me9a
I like your idea.. but who maintains that branch? Is there a willing and trustworthy party (per xdragon's informative post) that can contribute to it in a way that everyone agrees with?
And will there be leaders like Yaluzan who take the reigns in organizing once again?
If those two questions can't be answered without a doubt, it seems like it would be a waste of developer time to make that work... if it doesn't actually result in anything.
@Me9a
I like your idea.. but who maintains that branch? Is there a willing and trustworthy party (per xdragon's informative post) that can contribute to it in a way that everyone agrees with?
And will there be leaders like Yaluzan who take the reigns in organizing once again?
If those two questions can't be answered without a doubt, it seems like it would be a waste of developer time to make that work... if it doesn't actually result in anything.
The UWE/CDT/PDT made sure and represented several times that there will never be any kind of work or open discussions together with the competitive scene of NS2. So no, no one will take over just cause the amount of work is ridicilous.
What happened with the Petition the ENSL made last year? And Wasabi got the sniff of it and wrote a wall of text which basicly stated "We're sorry for these past years". Yet the same thing happened again. So yeah, the comp scene died, and you've managed to scare off other people.
I know this post will be edited, because that's the way the forum works these days, if someone gives critisism towards you, you'll get handcuffed or shot at sight.
No. Similar goals but not necessarily the same numbers.
We are currently planning on using the LMG model from Combat.
So why aren't you using what already proved to be a great addition, is balanced and adds more depth and fun to the game? When you say "similar goals" I do not think it is a good idea to differ too much from the comp mod HMG.
Or is it important for you to say "we did it our own way"?
Because the one you are used to using is catering for 6 vs 6 scenarios... where as UWE are catering to people playing variable sized games ranging FROM 6 vs 6 all the way up to double that (12 vs 12)... can you imagine 12 vs 12 with HMGs? not just that but in competitive you are reducing the potential map pool too, only including those maps considered "balanced enough" for 6 vs 6... so you imagine the effect 6 HMGs on the field at once on refinery would have.
THAT is why they have to do different things... because it doesn't F***ing work the way most people think it does... sure in the safe environment of titusmod HMGs work fine... in pub, they wouldn't. its that simple really.
But what if aliens come out with 4 onus instead of 2? You know because there are more aliens as well?
Just 6, not even 12, HMGs could melt 2-3 onos in the time it takes them to fit through the door. Any onos left alive may be able to kill a marine or two, but he's not going to survive getting back out of the room. It's more or less exactly the same situation as 2-3 dual exos guarding a room (prior to recent patch changes), except 100 times harder to actually take down because the HMGs can be recycled indefinitely.
With the addition of the health bar this game is beyond repair. After 13 years, I'm also out.
The changes have completely failed to halt the terminal playercount decline (http://steamcharts.com/app/4920). It's very sad to see such a promising young indie game studio alienate its most loyal customer base rather than simply understanding that sometimes things should be left to die gracefully.
Yes, there are some newer players, however I doubt anyone here will be able to find a significant case where any organisation has experienced greater success by deliberately and knowingly alienating its most loyal advocates.
The remote hopes of a promising NS3 have now been dashed, you've lost our trust.
^The health bars don't need to assist in tracking. Can PDT try moving the health bars to the side of your screen or somewhere else so it doesn't assist in tracking for one patch and see if it's better?
Idea that was discussed today:
1) Marines, Commander view/motion tracking - if you don't want to remove the health bars or move them to the side - make health bars only for the commanders and add a new motion tracking ability for field players on marines. Motion tracking would only be with line of sight. So there would be something above the alien player making it easier to see aliens. So it's less extreme than motion tracking through walls, but could help indicate to a marine if alien just went behind something. The health bars would be fully visible to the commander on the marines when a field player has line of sight so he/she can communicate that to their team.
2) Aliens, Health bars tied to Aura - So aura is already in the game for this reason, make aura more clear for players what the health is of the enemy. So alien players will get use to using aura and knowing they have that added benefit.
I think the 2 above changes would be much better than the current system. The commander still gets the full health bars on marines, but the field players get an assist in tracking aliens when they have line of sight. Also for aliens, it makes sense to have it tied into aura as that is already in this game and would have to be a chosen path for aliens.
NS2 is already dead.They are good at making things worse,they cant even make a good balance between two team.Why dont name this game 'Marine Selection2'
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
Current balance numbers show quite good balance, slightly in marines favor for 299, but not too much. We will see if changes like focus give aliens a small boost again
Current balance numbers show quite good balance, slightly in marines favor for 299, but not too much. We will see if changes like focus give aliens a small boost again
@Asraniel , I hope you realize that match outcome percentage is not a good indicator of balance.
You can have stats showing perfect 50/50 balanced win rates... But if every marine win is a brutal one sided stomp and every alien win is a last ditch base rush out of desperation, then clearly it's not balanced in any way.
That's one problem with relying so much on statistics. They don't always show the whole story.
50/50 win rates are an objective measure to strive for. They are good to strive for, but you can not use them alone. Ideally you would want 50/50 win rates at all skill levels, within certain factors such as round time and player counts. You should pay close attention to the highest skill level because it should have the greatest deviation. 50/50 win rates are useful to strive for.
Balance is much more complex than 50/50 win rates. You want the game to be fun. 50/50 win rates mean nothing if every win is a stomp or a base rush. That is not what I consider fun.
At the same time 75% alien win rates are no good, even if the game is fun. Sure 75% alien win rates might be ok if you play each team equally, but that is not feasible in ns2.
Having 50/50 win rates, or at least close to it, is a good sign but it does not mean that balance is good.
@MoFo1 Statistics, by definition never show the whole story. They are supposed to be representative. A lot of it comes down to how to interpret the statistics.
Balance is much more complex than 50/50 win rates. You want the game to be fun. 50/50 win rates mean nothing if every win is a stomp or a base rush. That is not what I consider fun.
Arguing on semantics:
You don't balance for fun, you design for fun. The goal of balance is statistical in its nature. If you're not careful while balancing you can turn a game into a very homogeneous experience while making it perfectly balanced to the point that all the guns feel the same and the game is no longer fun. Some aspects of balancing can make the game more fun, as it can help turn a "optimal/obvious choice" into an "interesting choice", but it also can turn it into a "hollow/irrelevant choice".
Balancing is a tool, not a means to an end. When talking about balance, we can talk about overall win rates, expected outcomes of various engagements, general timings of tech and lifeforms... but it is incorrect to say 50/50 is not balanced. You can say it's not fun, but that is the very definition of balanced.
^The health bars don't need to assist in tracking. Can PDT try moving the health bars to the side of your screen or somewhere else so it doesn't assist in tracking for one patch and see if it's better?
Chances are that having the bars at the side of the screen would be detrimental to rine tracking and be ambiguous to which bar refers to which alien, drawing the eye away from the xhair at the most crucial point - during a contact.
I don't think the health bars assist in tracking that much and even if they do- that's not the main advantage. The part that really gives the advantage is mid game when the lifeforms start to pop up. Previously you would blind chase a life form hoping to take it down (unless you have a competent com who can call hp's for you). Now you have a very real visual display of the hp so you can make the call straight away if it's worth chasing the lifeform or not. This essentially gives the rines pres, as if they chased a lifeform with high hp, they're more likely to die and lose their jp/weapon.
It's less of an advantage for aliens as the nature of the fade & lerk is hit and run.
Comments
Omg i bet that is next why would you say that. Now they will defeinitely do that. Dumbing the game down one patch at a time.
As for maintaining it, HAD someone stepped up that was dependable and trustworthy (you have to remember that this mod was used in a league) I would have handed it over. Sure its not a huge league, but given the problems we had with even internal league players cheating, the potential for abuse was huge... No one 'stepped' up in even the most basic of a sense. I know some people felt pretty jaded when I pulled the mods to bring attention to many things (one of which was this exact issue)... I had told most people who I felt could get the word out best and would only ask people that were trustworthy.. But being away from the community so much I really didn't have good connections anymore. At that point I really didn't have much of a recourse, and my free time was just about down to a minimum. I cant really just take some time and dedicate it to updating a mod when I am constantly getting called for support, or sitting in on meetings in the office until 5 AM for migrations around the globe I am responsible for.
I have never asked the community for anything, nor have I ever complained about doing work or updates for NS2 mods... But the attitude of many people after all of this was downright shameful, and was extremely irritating to listen to... At some point I decided I no longer cared at all and probably overreacted on a few things.. but at this point whats done is done. I have very little sympathy for what is left of the competitive community after everything... Far too many people that will complain about the state of something endlessly yet not be willing to put in any effort to correct it.
As for updating CompMod, currently probably wouldn't be that hard (it does technically work right now I believe) but the constant shifting balance kind of renders it pointless... Even with someone to update it the NSL would be in trouble, since you would either be un-doing all the current balance changes, or working with a new 'balance team' to adjust them as needed for comp play... something we always tried to avoid mid-season. There really isn't a good option afaik. Probably the best course of action would be to design a smaller 'Essential Comp Mod' which just disables or adds the absolute minimum things needed (like tRes eggs I imagine), but again that involves some one dedicating time to create such a mod, and still would have the season balance in flux.
A special branch of ns2 has been created about a month ago, so that the nsl can play their season without interupts. You can activate it in steam at the same place that you activate the beta branch. In theory that would be the perfect solution for conpetitive play, but somehow nobody uses it.
Copy and Pasted from Ensl.org Written by Simba:
Using this will be very difficult to do and coordinate. As such, we have decided that it is not a realistic option. Reasons:
Coordinating 150 players to switch to a separate branch of NS2 is annoying and painful for each person to do. Some people will refuse to do this, and might force match forfeits as a result. Some may have technical difficulties.
Coordinating modders to have versions of their mod that is compatible with our branch is going to be difficult. We would have to get versions of comp-mod, nsl mod, and ns2+ working at the minimum.
Coordinating server operators to switch to use the right branch of NS2 and the right branch of mods will be a logistical nightmare. Any technical difficulties are going to take a lot of time to resolve, and we're all volunteers here.
Summary
I posted similar things already on: http://www.ensl.org/topics/1689#post_21943
1) I remember some games ns2 included that have a choice box on startup
(back in the days it was the choice between the launch pad and start ns2)
looks like that:
Can we not have the same for NS2 comp and NS2 instead of a different branches ?
2) Or a starting parameter for "ns2.exe -comp" to launch in comp mod.
With both possibility's:
The Patch size will increases but its a 1 time download.
instead of switching Branches that makes multiple downloads.
Its better for people with slow internet/volume based internet or no ssds/Slow Pcs.
leave alone the time you have to take to always switch back and forth in branches every time you want to switch to NS2 or Comp.
Sorry for Derailing now to the Health Bars:
Other Games have Healtbars too and i agree it makes it easier to track/aim.
But you got to see the whole picture if its tweaked it can help closing the skill gap cause of easier aiming/tracking.
beside the easy and fast information it provides which you not always have time to communicate in the heat of battle because the voice chat is blocked already or there is simply not enough time.
playing marines with this hax isnt really fun either.
Guys, put a derailing disclaimer in your signature, or fair use of derailing statement ... you'll gain some time
Ooops, sorry
I like your idea.. but who maintains that branch? Is there a willing and trustworthy party (per xdragon's informative post) that can contribute to it in a way that everyone agrees with?
And will there be leaders like Yaluzan who take the reigns in organizing once again?
If those two questions can't be answered without a doubt, it seems like it would be a waste of developer time to make that work... if it doesn't actually result in anything.
The UWE/CDT/PDT made sure and represented several times that there will never be any kind of work or open discussions together with the competitive scene of NS2. So no, no one will take over just cause the amount of work is ridicilous.
What happened with the Petition the ENSL made last year? And Wasabi got the sniff of it and wrote a wall of text which basicly stated "We're sorry for these past years". Yet the same thing happened again. So yeah, the comp scene died, and you've managed to scare off other people.
I know this post will be edited, because that's the way the forum works these days, if someone gives critisism towards you, you'll get handcuffed or shot at sight.
Just 6, not even 12, HMGs could melt 2-3 onos in the time it takes them to fit through the door. Any onos left alive may be able to kill a marine or two, but he's not going to survive getting back out of the room. It's more or less exactly the same situation as 2-3 dual exos guarding a room (prior to recent patch changes), except 100 times harder to actually take down because the HMGs can be recycled indefinitely.
Only when damage is done.
The changes have completely failed to halt the terminal playercount decline (http://steamcharts.com/app/4920). It's very sad to see such a promising young indie game studio alienate its most loyal customer base rather than simply understanding that sometimes things should be left to die gracefully.
Yes, there are some newer players, however I doubt anyone here will be able to find a significant case where any organisation has experienced greater success by deliberately and knowingly alienating its most loyal advocates.
The remote hopes of a promising NS3 have now been dashed, you've lost our trust.
Idea that was discussed today:
1) Marines, Commander view/motion tracking - if you don't want to remove the health bars or move them to the side - make health bars only for the commanders and add a new motion tracking ability for field players on marines. Motion tracking would only be with line of sight. So there would be something above the alien player making it easier to see aliens. So it's less extreme than motion tracking through walls, but could help indicate to a marine if alien just went behind something. The health bars would be fully visible to the commander on the marines when a field player has line of sight so he/she can communicate that to their team.
2) Aliens, Health bars tied to Aura - So aura is already in the game for this reason, make aura more clear for players what the health is of the enemy. So alien players will get use to using aura and knowing they have that added benefit.
I think the 2 above changes would be much better than the current system. The commander still gets the full health bars on marines, but the field players get an assist in tracking aliens when they have line of sight. Also for aliens, it makes sense to have it tied into aura as that is already in this game and would have to be a chosen path for aliens.
aliens just need to get a big buff cause gamebalance is pretty broken now.
That would be a bandaid. Go to the source - do something along the lines of what Deck_ said.
@Asraniel , I hope you realize that match outcome percentage is not a good indicator of balance.
That's one problem with relying so much on statistics. They don't always show the whole story.
50/50 win rates are an objective measure to strive for. They are good to strive for, but you can not use them alone. Ideally you would want 50/50 win rates at all skill levels, within certain factors such as round time and player counts. You should pay close attention to the highest skill level because it should have the greatest deviation. 50/50 win rates are useful to strive for.
Balance is much more complex than 50/50 win rates. You want the game to be fun. 50/50 win rates mean nothing if every win is a stomp or a base rush. That is not what I consider fun.
At the same time 75% alien win rates are no good, even if the game is fun. Sure 75% alien win rates might be ok if you play each team equally, but that is not feasible in ns2.
Having 50/50 win rates, or at least close to it, is a good sign but it does not mean that balance is good.
@MoFo1 Statistics, by definition never show the whole story. They are supposed to be representative. A lot of it comes down to how to interpret the statistics.
Arguing on semantics:
You don't balance for fun, you design for fun. The goal of balance is statistical in its nature. If you're not careful while balancing you can turn a game into a very homogeneous experience while making it perfectly balanced to the point that all the guns feel the same and the game is no longer fun. Some aspects of balancing can make the game more fun, as it can help turn a "optimal/obvious choice" into an "interesting choice", but it also can turn it into a "hollow/irrelevant choice".
Balancing is a tool, not a means to an end. When talking about balance, we can talk about overall win rates, expected outcomes of various engagements, general timings of tech and lifeforms... but it is incorrect to say 50/50 is not balanced. You can say it's not fun, but that is the very definition of balanced.
Chances are that having the bars at the side of the screen would be detrimental to rine tracking and be ambiguous to which bar refers to which alien, drawing the eye away from the xhair at the most crucial point - during a contact.
I don't think the health bars assist in tracking that much and even if they do- that's not the main advantage. The part that really gives the advantage is mid game when the lifeforms start to pop up. Previously you would blind chase a life form hoping to take it down (unless you have a competent com who can call hp's for you). Now you have a very real visual display of the hp so you can make the call straight away if it's worth chasing the lifeform or not. This essentially gives the rines pres, as if they chased a lifeform with high hp, they're more likely to die and lose their jp/weapon.
It's less of an advantage for aliens as the nature of the fade & lerk is hit and run.