It'd be pretty neat to have an alternative to the airtanks made out of airsacks and membrane trees! Like a diving spider thing - it'd slow you down, but it would act as a deployable with a limited air supply.
IMO, the way to pacify people's uproar about making tanks part of the paperdoll UI, is either to A: Make tanks give more oxygen or B: Allow 2 slots for tanks (this already exists in real life, called a Manifold, for the same purpose of diving longer). Either way, people would have more oxygen, and the upgrades to the tanks would still be relevant and necessary for exploration in deeper waters.
IMO, the way to pacify people's uproar about making tanks part of the paperdoll UI, is either to A: Make tanks give more oxygen or B: Allow 2 slots for tanks (this already exists in real life, called a Manifold, for the same purpose of diving longer). Either way, people would have more oxygen, and the upgrades to the tanks would still be relevant and necessary for exploration in deeper waters.
1- current tanks already give off more O2, twice as much as previous ones to be precise
2- true i could see this be a modification table upgrade to one suit for example, that would allow the player to have 2 airtanks in the paperdoll UI instead of just 1
You need a liquid mix to get oxygen to your lungs if your going to be going bellow 200
I think a pressurised helium/oxygen mix is used at those kind of depth at present, since liquid breathing doesn't appear to exist yet (unless it does?). Which admittedly still requires a very fancy setup, and I'm hoping that one day we'll see the red-depth indicator mean "you need to upgrade your equipment or suffer health loss" rather than just being red for the heck of it
Back on topic, I'm happy to see the option to expand our air supplies even more. I won't need 2+ tanks often, but it will be nice to have the option if I want to check out some caves.
I like the idea of using specialized, high investment equipment to customize game-play.
A special tank which carried a *lot* more air, but could only be re-filled in a machine might be interesting. Then you could also carry other tanks, and switch when one of them is empty. This tank wouldn't refill from simply re-surfacing, or would only refill as much as a standard tank.
For people who want to take their time in the water, who want to take a lot of time slowly exploring a wreck, it might be very rewarding to save up materials for the reward of a long lasting diving tank.
Love the idea of a special suit which allows double equipped tanks! ^_^
It would be nice if you could spend a lot of resources and energy to *earn* the ability to stay under for 5-20minutes. You'd need every piece of gear to be specialized to the purpose, but it would be a nice reward, and let us customize our game-play styles.
I would rather have a tank swapping mechanism where you can swap air bottles like replacing a dead battery.
This allows for the placement of bottles along a predetermined route for deep exploration pre-seamoth. Also please make the bottles emit some sort of light, or attached glowstick, so we can find them :P
Is that truly a quote from trello calling their profit whiners?
Regardless. I started over with the last update and found it easy enough to rebuild two bases, with scan room and moonpool and a cyclops all in a two days. Granted I know what to expect for some of it and that helps. I'm not saying it was too easy, please don't misunderstand.
What I am saying is, it seems fine. Even exploring wrecks with the new tank feature is fine. Upgrading it for more capacity was a requirement, but I haven't run into a need to cut through jammed doors yet, so maybe that changes things.
Decided I should explain that I, too, used to use 2 tanks gladly sacrificing inventory space for extra air. I didn't see it as a crutch.
... can stop whining; "passive" tanks are going to be added back in. From the Trello:
"As per latest discussion with Charlie and Obraxis: The oxygen tanks in the inventory should still add to the total oxygen available to the player. So both the tank in the equipment slot AND the "passive" tanks in the inventory should count.
The reason is simple: we want to make the life easier for those players who, for whatever reason, don't want to worry about oxygen so much.
The "excuse" why something passive in the inventory comes with some active effect is that there would be automatic swapping of tanks going on when the equipped tank is empty. Technically we don't really swap the tanks though. We just count the total oxygen and be done with it."
Congrats, people, it gets easier for you, now. Some of the people here, I swear...
"Yes, less Oxygen, make it harder!"
"But I dun' want less Oxygen; I hate it!"
"But I want more realism!"
"It's too hard, make it easier!"
...........
Head Dev1: "Put it in!"
Head Dev2: "Change it back, they don't like it..."
Head Dev1: "Yes they do, put it back in!"
Head Dev 2: "Naw, get rid of it..."
Head Dev 1:...
Other Devs, slowly going bald from stress: "We're working... as fast.... as we can!"
So tru with the we want realism but we want more oxygen. (Im fine with the way its working right now!)
They put the Passive Tanks back in, but there's a mistake; the tanks give only 30 seconds of Oxygen (45 to 75 O2) when they should give 105, so they need to change the tank description to match that!
I feel reading this thread like I am one of the very few people who like just messing around under-water and generally finds the surfacing thing like a sequence of pauses to my gameplay rather than a challenge that heightens my excitement.
I'm not talking about wrecks because I feel they are the one exception where the oxygen mechanic adds real risk. I mean I like to swim through trenches, poke around caves, stalk stalkers, dig long tunnels by hand, attach floaters to things I shouldn't etc etc and so on and more. Only wrecks are made harder by the need to manage a limited air supply, yet all of them suffer from the same regular interruption to whatever I was doing equally.
There is creative mode, but tbh trying to sneak up on a sandshark and spam floaters on it loses it's sense of excitement out of survival/hardcore. I don't see how it hurts anyone to let me carry dual/triple tanks (sometimes it takes quite a while to catch that sandshark on the non-bitey end) when the option is always there to *not* use all the tools of the game if it's not exciting for you. I stopped using the stasis gun outside of reaper territory for the same reason - it made the game less exciting for me, but it would be mean of me to suggest that others limit themselves to my play-style.
Anyway, back to the game. I am currently setting up a 12-way current generator loop around my HQ to create a giant vortex/whirlpool type thing I can chill out in and do laps of my base. Fingers crossed it works ^_^b (If you happen to see a mad survivor orbiting a base with 12 non-working o2 tanks strapped to his person and a holefish in each hand come say hi!)
I don't see how it hurts anyone to let me carry dual/triple tanks {...} when the option is always there to *not* use all the tools of the game if it's not exciting for you. I stopped using the stasis gun outside of reaper territory for the same reason - it made the game less exciting for me, but it would be mean of me to suggest that others limit themselves to my play-style.
To answer you about why self-limitation can't be relied upon to balance the option of carrying multiple tanks, I cite the game design principle of optimal strategy. This principle states that if a player is presented with an obstacle, and the player is given a means of overcoming that obstacle that is superior to all others, then the player will overcome that obstacle using that method every time they encounter it in the future. In this case, the obstacle is the player's limited air supply, and the optimal means of overcoming it is making more tanks. There are players who are exceptions to this principle (such as yourself), but in general, players won't choose to limit themselves like you have done, even if doing so would enhance their experience. If the designers don't implement limitations on the player, then the game loses its sense of excitement like you experienced in Creative.
You're free to play however you want, and you are right that it would be mean to suggest that others limit themselves as you have, but this is how it might hurt the gameplay to let players carry double/triple tanks. However, I personally believe that before the devs tried limiting us to only one air tank, they probably should have implemented higher tiers of tank sizes using rarer and more advanced resources, so that end-game players could still spend several minutes underwater using only a single tank.
I don't see how it hurts anyone to let me carry dual/triple tanks {...} when the option is always there to *not* use all the tools of the game if it's not exciting for you. I stopped using the stasis gun outside of reaper territory for the same reason - it made the game less exciting for me, but it would be mean of me to suggest that others limit themselves to my play-style.
To answer you about why self-limitation can't be relied upon to balance the option of carrying multiple tanks, I cite the game design principle of optimal strategy. This principle states that if a player is presented with an obstacle, and the player is given a means of overcoming that obstacle that is superior to all others, then the player will overcome that obstacle using that method every time they encounter it in the future. In this case, the obstacle is the player's limited air supply, and the optimal means of overcoming it is making more tanks. There are players who are exceptions to this principle (such as yourself), but in general, players won't choose to limit themselves like you have done, even if doing so would enhance their experience. If the designers don't implement limitations on the player, then the game loses its sense of excitement like you experienced in Creative.
You're free to play however you want, and you are right that it would be mean to suggest that others limit themselves as you have, but this is how it might hurt the gameplay to let players carry double/triple tanks. However, I personally believe that before the devs tried limiting us to only one air tank, they probably should have implemented higher tiers of tank sizes using rarer and more advanced resources, so that end-game players could still spend several minutes underwater using only a single tank.
That sounds more like a design strategy from the past 10 years. And it really seems to apply more to multiplayer games, especially MOBAs and RTS games where multiple viable options are needed.
In a single player game that doesn't really matter. In fact the opposite is true. Just look at all the 0% runs of single player games if you don't believe me.
The only thing more stupid than having stacking air tanks would be having tanks that only give you 30 seconds of air, less than you can hold your breath for....now THAT would be really stupid.
Everything old is new again. I started reading this thread without looking at the dates and thought it was current. Until I finally noticed all those "2016"'s.
But I think something will come up. Some wrecks are impossible to safely explore without swapping tanks and it is very awkward to do that right now.
@Jacke Same... I had this large post worked up regarding realism: realistic air tank logic vs unrealistic air supply, realistic planetary rotation vs unrealistic night time representation. Then I noticed the actual dates.
You got to have the extra oxygen just to get into some of them wrecks
No, you only need about 100sec air for all wrecks if you plan your expeditions carefully.
Assuming that you don't get lost in a wreck or lose track of time dealing with a sealed door. Also, preparation usually goes out the window when dealing with hostile creatures.
Reminds me of that Mike Tyson quote, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face"
@Jacke Same... I had this large post worked up regarding realism: realistic air tank logic vs unrealistic air supply, realistic planetary rotation vs unrealistic night time representation. Then I noticed the actual dates.
Just a reminder for air tank usage: explore multiple times and not try to do it with 3 tanks and a single wreck diving exploration !!!
Though I don't like the UC tank to only have 155 against the 135 variants, a late wreck diving test with the sunken wreck at the radioactive koosh zone at about 200m and diving through the access maze to the cargo bay and back to my Seamoth, gave me the result of needing only a 135 sec tank for that operation without the rebreather and ultraglide fins and nothing much to carry with me, as well as not using the Seaglide.
Although the more interesting thing was finding out that the devs now seem to populate the deeper loot areas with some creatures. The bay had multiple mesmers inside. Up until now the most wreck threats so far were air going out and not creatures lurking in the wrecks. So you had to rush wrecks without enjoying them too much or being able to slowly glide through wrecks. The devs could and should increase air time of the tanks to allow more diving time and instead fill caves and wrecks with creatures. The diver would need more time to deal with creatures and less with just rushing against the air clock.
My suggestion for the UC tank is to increase it to about 180 secs but increase drag, to allow so called "slow diving" expeditions for all players that wish to take more time. The drag would slow down everything but with increased time it would be about the same as 135 secs without drag. So we could get speed diving vs slow exploration diving. Then both tanks - the 135 LW and the 180 UC would be equal to each other and different in use. Right now it rather seems like 155 UC without drag is the only option. You can also find the UC recipe too easy, but not the LW.
Comments
You need a liquid mix to get oxygen to your lungs if your going to be going bellow 200
Nanotech Shielded and Armored Suit perhaps
1- current tanks already give off more O2, twice as much as previous ones to be precise
2- true
I think a pressurised helium/oxygen mix is used at those kind of depth at present, since liquid breathing doesn't appear to exist yet (unless it does?). Which admittedly still requires a very fancy setup, and I'm hoping that one day we'll see the red-depth indicator mean "you need to upgrade your equipment or suffer health loss" rather than just being red for the heck of it
Back on topic, I'm happy to see the option to expand our air supplies even more. I won't need 2+ tanks often, but it will be nice to have the option if I want to check out some caves.
A special tank which carried a *lot* more air, but could only be re-filled in a machine might be interesting. Then you could also carry other tanks, and switch when one of them is empty. This tank wouldn't refill from simply re-surfacing, or would only refill as much as a standard tank.
For people who want to take their time in the water, who want to take a lot of time slowly exploring a wreck, it might be very rewarding to save up materials for the reward of a long lasting diving tank.
Love the idea of a special suit which allows double equipped tanks! ^_^
It would be nice if you could spend a lot of resources and energy to *earn* the ability to stay under for 5-20minutes. You'd need every piece of gear to be specialized to the purpose, but it would be a nice reward, and let us customize our game-play styles.
This allows for the placement of bottles along a predetermined route for deep exploration pre-seamoth. Also please make the bottles emit some sort of light, or attached glowstick, so we can find them :P
Regardless. I started over with the last update and found it easy enough to rebuild two bases, with scan room and moonpool and a cyclops all in a two days. Granted I know what to expect for some of it and that helps. I'm not saying it was too easy, please don't misunderstand.
What I am saying is, it seems fine. Even exploring wrecks with the new tank feature is fine. Upgrading it for more capacity was a requirement, but I haven't run into a need to cut through jammed doors yet, so maybe that changes things.
Decided I should explain that I, too, used to use 2 tanks gladly sacrificing inventory space for extra air. I didn't see it as a crutch.
So tru with the we want realism but we want more oxygen. (Im fine with the way its working right now!)
I'm not talking about wrecks because I feel they are the one exception where the oxygen mechanic adds real risk. I mean I like to swim through trenches, poke around caves, stalk stalkers, dig long tunnels by hand, attach floaters to things I shouldn't etc etc and so on and more. Only wrecks are made harder by the need to manage a limited air supply, yet all of them suffer from the same regular interruption to whatever I was doing equally.
There is creative mode, but tbh trying to sneak up on a sandshark and spam floaters on it loses it's sense of excitement out of survival/hardcore. I don't see how it hurts anyone to let me carry dual/triple tanks (sometimes it takes quite a while to catch that sandshark on the non-bitey end) when the option is always there to *not* use all the tools of the game if it's not exciting for you. I stopped using the stasis gun outside of reaper territory for the same reason - it made the game less exciting for me, but it would be mean of me to suggest that others limit themselves to my play-style.
Anyway, back to the game. I am currently setting up a 12-way current generator loop around my HQ to create a giant vortex/whirlpool type thing I can chill out in and do laps of my base. Fingers crossed it works ^_^b (If you happen to see a mad survivor orbiting a base with 12 non-working o2 tanks strapped to his person and a holefish in each hand come say hi!)
To answer you about why self-limitation can't be relied upon to balance the option of carrying multiple tanks, I cite the game design principle of optimal strategy. This principle states that if a player is presented with an obstacle, and the player is given a means of overcoming that obstacle that is superior to all others, then the player will overcome that obstacle using that method every time they encounter it in the future. In this case, the obstacle is the player's limited air supply, and the optimal means of overcoming it is making more tanks. There are players who are exceptions to this principle (such as yourself), but in general, players won't choose to limit themselves like you have done, even if doing so would enhance their experience. If the designers don't implement limitations on the player, then the game loses its sense of excitement like you experienced in Creative.
You're free to play however you want, and you are right that it would be mean to suggest that others limit themselves as you have, but this is how it might hurt the gameplay to let players carry double/triple tanks. However, I personally believe that before the devs tried limiting us to only one air tank, they probably should have implemented higher tiers of tank sizes using rarer and more advanced resources, so that end-game players could still spend several minutes underwater using only a single tank.
That sounds more like a design strategy from the past 10 years. And it really seems to apply more to multiplayer games, especially MOBAs and RTS games where multiple viable options are needed.
In a single player game that doesn't really matter. In fact the opposite is true. Just look at all the 0% runs of single player games if you don't believe me.
But I think something will come up. Some wrecks are impossible to safely explore without swapping tanks and it is very awkward to do that right now.
Oh well, what better way to celebrate thread necromancy with an even older thread bump! High-five to @zetachron for representing all the way from 2014, keeping Subnautica fun and pushing for realism!
Sound logic, if you are entitled and believe the world revolves around you.
edit: posted before realizing it's the RISE OF THE NECROMANCER!
Reminds me of that Mike Tyson quote, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face"
The game seems to go for realism in some ways, and not in other ways, but alas...it is a game.
Though I don't like the UC tank to only have 155 against the 135 variants, a late wreck diving test with the sunken wreck at the radioactive koosh zone at about 200m and diving through the access maze to the cargo bay and back to my Seamoth, gave me the result of needing only a 135 sec tank for that operation without the rebreather and ultraglide fins and nothing much to carry with me, as well as not using the Seaglide.
Although the more interesting thing was finding out that the devs now seem to populate the deeper loot areas with some creatures. The bay had multiple mesmers inside. Up until now the most wreck threats so far were air going out and not creatures lurking in the wrecks. So you had to rush wrecks without enjoying them too much or being able to slowly glide through wrecks. The devs could and should increase air time of the tanks to allow more diving time and instead fill caves and wrecks with creatures. The diver would need more time to deal with creatures and less with just rushing against the air clock.
My suggestion for the UC tank is to increase it to about 180 secs but increase drag, to allow so called "slow diving" expeditions for all players that wish to take more time. The drag would slow down everything but with increased time it would be about the same as 135 secs without drag. So we could get speed diving vs slow exploration diving. Then both tanks - the 135 LW and the 180 UC would be equal to each other and different in use. Right now it rather seems like 155 UC without drag is the only option. You can also find the UC recipe too easy, but not the LW.