Update 295 Released! - Natural Selection 2

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  • YojimboYojimbo EnglandMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Posts: 1,252 Advanced user
    Nice patch, don't care about rag dolls , font looks odd but in a good way.

    Quit whining about every change you personally disagree with, it's highly demotivating and demoralising, what's next? Complaints about onos still missing a butthole?
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
    jrgnZavaro2coughFoxy
  • navazkanavazka Members Join Date: 2015-12-08 Member: 209825Posts: 52 Advanced user
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    font looks odd but in a good way.

    I wonder why people keep saying the font changed. I have just added a few more characters, but didn't touch the existing ones. The font looks the same to me.

    When comparing the rendered font png files (I found an old one on disk), the only difference I see is that the font in build 295 seems to have enabled hinting (it was not hinted before). That was actually something I fought with, my newly added characters got rendered with hinting while the existing ones got rendered without it. That looked really off (not because of hinting, but because it affected just certain characters). In the end I managed to make even the new ones to render without hinting, by not using any custom shapes and just reusing existing ones from other characters.

    So on my computer everything rendered without hinting, the same as before. So I hope this is a deliberate change (which can be again changed if desired), and not a bug introduced by me.

    Personally, I tend to prefer fonts without hinting because they look crisper (in case of NS2, I think the crisper fonts have a better appeal), but I know people have very different preferences in this area.
  • LuchsLuchs SwitzerlandMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2014-07-23 Member: 197569Posts: 75 Fully active user
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    Complaints about onos still missing a butthole?

    Yes! Think of the immersion - and let's also add critical hits (with lots of splatter) if you hit said spot with a GL... we'd finally have a way for Marines to adequately punish the butt-wiggle-tease!

    I'm sure that'd increase player retention by at least 2713.82%.

    (On Topic: Font is ok. Ragdolls are ok.)
    YojimboWake
  • YojimboYojimbo EnglandMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Posts: 1,252 Advanced user
    Martigen wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Hi, you don't represent everyone. Thanks.
    One would think these are indicators that your direction is not the right one, and some changes should be reversed.

    Problem is Martigen, people are just going to complain about whatever direction PDT takes anyway, there is constructive criticism and then there is "self entitled" whining.

    For better or worse, NS2 needs change, no matter how small, this is the longest run of stale gameplay since God knows when.
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
    migalski
  • MartigenMartigen AustraliaMembers, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Reinforced - Onos Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2714Posts: 784 Advanced user
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    Problem is Martigen, people are just going to complain about whatever direction PDT takes anyway, there is constructive criticism and then there is "self entitled" whining.
    Will they? I've raised only those elements that I feel are impacting negatively. You really don't give the NS2 community here much credit if that's how you feel.

    I'd also really love to hear your definition of 'constructive criticism' vs 'self-entitled whining'. How do you decide which is which? And which is mine, by the way?

    It's a sad day when people post about the game they love, and the response is 'you're whining, go away!'. Consider for a moment these players might be right, and consider for a moment recent changes might be wrong. Everyone makes mistakes, PDT included.

    Feedback makes any product. I don't remember a single thread where players were asking for shorter ragdoll times, a hitscan sound by default, or server browser changes that try to hide large servers by default (please, point me to them -- perhaps I missed them?). Yet, there are threads and discussions asking for these changes to be reversed.

    If the goal is to genuinely improve NS2, then please listen.

    As for NS2 gameplay being stale, here are plenty of other changes that can be worked on -- lets start with webs, hydras, turrets etc. Until then, lets not make changes that push people away eh.
    stf // martigen
    rebirth
  • MephillesMephilles GermanyMembers, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Posts: 975 Advanced user
    As a competitive player I support the ragdoll instant dissolve effect. Having them is just annoying, it indicates better when something is dead (I disabled the score popup in ns2+ because it is cluttering and confusing) and I feel very little satisfaction killing lifeforms (except for maybe div 1 lifeforms). You dont even have time to be happy about it.

    When lifeforms are dead you need to think 2 steps ahead already on how to exploit the lack of lifeforms on enemy side. You have time to be happy after the game and at that part it only counts that you killed the lifeforms and not how the ragdoll is bumping around.

    Well that's my point of view on the matter.
    return to zero
    ZavaroRevanCorana2coughmigalski
  • BicsumBicsum Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited April 2016
    Martigen wrote: »
    Feedback makes any product. I don't remember a single thread where players were asking for shorter ragdoll times, a hitscan sound by default, or server browser changes that try to hide large servers by default (please, point me to them -- perhaps I missed them?). Yet, there are threads and discussions asking for these changes to be reversed.
    Well, I was asking for the >24slot server filter (here and here). Why, you ask? Because I'm straight up jealous of the >24 slot server admins player base.
    Martigen wrote: »
    If the goal is to genuinely improve NS2, then please listen.

    As for NS2 gameplay being stale, here are plenty of other changes that can be worked on -- lets start with webs, hydras, turrets etc. Until then, lets not make changes that push people away eh.

    What about hydras and turrets?
    Mephilles wrote: »
    When lifeforms are dead you need to think 2 steps ahead already on how to exploit the lack of lifeforms on enemy side. You have time to be happy after the game and at that part it only counts that you killed the lifeforms and not how the ragdoll is bumping around.

    Well that's my point of view on the matter.

    Nah man, when you kill a life form, you need to take DNA samples of the alien corpse and worry about your marine wife, wondering if she's still safe on her home planet and then think about your son and you hope that he makes it through the TSF academy.

    I, personally, wouldn't have noticed the ragdoll dissolve change, if I hadn't read about it. However, it could've easily been just a slider in the options menu to avoid people being angry.
  • dePARAdePARA Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    edited April 2016
    Martigen wrote: »
    If you actually wanted to grow NS2, you would be recommending NS2Large for green players with a pop-up saying 'Try a smaller server for a more strategic experience when you feel comfortable'.

    Nice try, but the correct term would be:
    If you actually wanted to grow NS2, you would be recommending rookie only servers for green players for the 1st 10hrs with a pop-up saying 'Try non rookie servers when you feel comfortable'.
    Martigen wrote: »
    For some reason the PDT still seem to be focusing the game on a 'pro' gameplay style despite the fact that 99.9% of games played are casual, as changes like these demonstrate.

    "Pro" is played @ 6v6. Cant remember that this format was ever popular for pub play.
    The typical pub server is between 18-24 slots.
    So, i cant see "the focus" here.



    Post edited by dePARA on
    image
  • WakeWake Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Posts: 723 Advanced user
    My draft post I did'nt send:
    Ragdolls were fun ... :( Damn, does everything fun or atmosphere related has to go away for frag's sake ?

    Meanwhile
    Martigen wrote: »
    And I think that's pretty much the crux -- we have two communities: competitive and public. And ultimately, they have different preferences.


    Which is why I become vocal on changes that impact public play, because when that goes, NS2 is dead.

    It is just my op, but NS2 needs to focus on any and all changes that build public play. If we ever get 1000 players again, by all means lets start promoting competitive again. Until then, though, it's a dead end to build NS2 with a 6v6 focus on the idea that this is what will make it grow. We know it won't.

    That's why I find the resistance to large servers strange. Large servers attract people. Large servers make it easier for greens to learn. There are really no downsides, except that's not how the game was intended to be played. That's nice. That's the past. That's not what NS2 is now, and trying to force it to be will only kill it sooner.

    A genuine push for growing NS2 would focus on 24+ server balance. Yes, actively decide than 12v12 is now the 'default' and not 6v6. Paradigm shift. See what happens. We really have nothing left to lose at this stage.

    I say : It is quite obvious to me. No public, no competition.
    Freak out
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Posts: 773 Advanced user
    Yep, the missing ragdolls look terrible. What exactly was the reason for this change? And why don't you want to make a slider for that??

    Reducing the quality of the graphics of the game for everyone, nice idea. Really, make a slider for it and everyone is happy.
    xen32
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    remi wrote: »
    Sorry to say, but we aren't going to be introducing toggles for every change we make.

    While I do understand your reasons to not include a toggle (and personally don't mind), I would like to point out that a) nobody asked you to introduce toggles for every change and b) in this specific case it would have fitted in very well with other "comp vs. pub" toggles we already have in the game (Hitsounds, everything hud related, etc).
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    WakewoozaturtsmcgurtChrisStark
  • WyzcrakWyzcrak Pot Pie Aficionado Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10447Posts: 920 mod
    295 ragdolls look great for me. No significant threat to my much-loved immersion. I'm all for having the timing tweaked further if that helps someone.

    295 in-game font looks very nice for me at 1080p and is much easier for me to read (I wasn't having grand problems before).

    My first several games of 295 were fantastic. Really enjoying the frequent updates! Thanks again to everyone who built and tested it!
    TGNS Portal | NS2 side-by-side game viewer
    IronHorse wrote: »
    TG's win or lose mod that replaces the concede function is the best of both worlds and should be official.
    SupaFredBlrg
  • migalskimigalski BostonMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Posts: 111 Advanced user
    Martigen wrote: »
    A genuine push for growing NS2 would focus on 24+ server balance. Yes, actively decide than 12v12 is now the 'default' and not 6v6. Paradigm shift. See what happens. We really have nothing left to lose at this stage.
    Ns2 has never been built for 6v6, there's a reason the comp scene uses its own balance mods. It's always been balanced around 8v8ish i believe.
  • WakeWake Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Posts: 723 Advanced user
    2cough wrote: »
    And seriously, if you want "immersion," I don't think a fast paced twitch fps is the game you want.

    If NS2 was only a FPS, I'd be looooong gone.

    2cough, you call about tone down, so make your speech coherent with this claim and don't say to some of us we're in the wrong game. Please ? Thanks.

    All of us thanks the PDTs, CDTs, mappers, designers, community managers ... everyone who dedicate some or whole of his time to make it better
    Freak out
    Stardog
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain HighMembers, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Posts: 1,025 Advanced user
    Wake wrote: »
    2cough wrote: »
    And seriously, if you want "immersion," I don't think a fast paced twitch fps is the game you want.

    If NS2 was only a FPS, I'd be looooong gone.

    2cough, you call about tone down, so make your speech coherent with this claim and don't say to some of us we're in the wrong game. Please ? Thanks.

    I was pretty delicate about it, actually. Notice I said "think," as in my opinion being expressed (not shoved down your throat). I also concede that immersion is relative to the perceiver. I really don't think my tone is out of line. Just trying to be reasonable. If anything the "Please? Thanks" comes off as condescending. Ironic.
  • BacillusBacillus Members Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,774 Advanced user

    2cough wrote: »
    while I don't notice the rag doll changes as I've already had them set to disappear immediately in ns2+ for as long as i can remember having the option, I'm not sure why a slider wasn't introduced into vanilla as it had already been in aforementioned ns2+.

    For those who claim it is ruining their "immersion," try to understand why this was done. If I recall correctly, pdt is working on making the game more understandable and all approachable for new players. Part of that is addressing the little things like this which can easily put a new marine at a disadvantage.

    Imagine you're brand new, you don't yet understand the pace of the game and that bullets must be well managed in an engagement. You empty over half your clip into a rag dolling skulk cuz you didn't realize your buddy has already killed it. You go to reload because you've mismanaged your ammo and another skulk comes flying around the corner and mows you down.

    It's a small thing, but it's a thing, and I can understand and appreciate the change. And seriously, if you want "immersion," I don't think a fast paced twitch fps is the game you want. Immersion is relative to the person perceiving it, sure, but I'm not sure why you would actually want huge dead onos lingering around, blocking los for whatever may be hiding behind it when the goal of the game is to eliminate enemies, not be in awe of their dead bodies.

    the only divisiveness I really notice after the last few patches is from the vocal minorities we have represented here on the forums. In game, people seem to appreciate the changes and nobody is at one another's throat like on here.

    I think us forum rats seriously need to tone down the hostility.

    Thank you, pdt, for your continued efforts.
    If it's about reducing visual clutter and such, I think Quake Live pulled off a pretty good default setup. The default enemy model has bright neon green armor for easy visual tracking, but when the enemy dies it loses all the neon green and turns into blank grey. I don't think the effect was necessarily even intended to have any kind of immersive element, but it kind of looks like the enemy cyborg shutting down rapidly while also creating a very clear visual for the frag.

    Here's some random youtube gameplay that demonstrates the effect

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTlXv5dzZT8

    Maybe something slightly more elegant could be used in NS2 somehow? Let's say the bacteria instantly starts dissolving skulks and creates a distinct blank grey colour effect for the whole skulk model.

    Of course if the ragdolls are removed for performance reasons or vision blocking reasons, simply recoloring dead players isn't that useful.


    2coughtwiliteblue
  • ForlornHopeForlornHope Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2003-08-01 Member: 18675Posts: 226 Fully active user
    edited April 2016
    This might be a daft idea but with the effort going into the game at the mo and the overall goal being that we want more people playing, it would help to post game updates to social media. It's really defeating the object otherwise and it's devaluing the work done.

    News updates are quick jobs that really matter if you want to retain interest. Without them, only people who check the NS2 site, currently play or happen to spot Steam downloading will know about what is happening to the game. I see people mentioning that the game is dead on Facebook occasionally and it's because they never hear about it.
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  • KatzenfleischKatzenfleisch Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2014-03-21 Member: 194881Posts: 193 Advanced user
    "Gamemode server browser tabs now display the amount of players of the given mode."

    Thanks for that change, it will be really appreciated.
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  • FoxyFoxy United KingdomMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2014-08-19 Member: 198032Posts: 470 Advanced user
    edited April 2016
    @Bobby_Wasabi If you can't offer constructive feedback, then don't offer any at all.

    I'm really struggling to understand why so many people are averse to changes like this. In the argument of 'I like ragdolls because they look funny/I like to take screenshots of them' vs things that genuinely make the game simpler for everyone, especially new people, I know which one I'd back every time.


    Post edited by Foxy on
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Posts: 1,185 Fully active user
    I'd reallllly like an option for the ragdoll dissolve. For almost a decade, I dreamed of seeing NS1 skulks ragdoll on death. The last few years, it's been amazing. Now it's gone, and I immediately noticed it. I understand the reasoning and to keep the default this way, but the option to set the length would be huge.
    Professional Game and Level Designer, thanks to NS!
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  • AliteAlite Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60188Posts: 76 Fully active user
    Martigen wrote: »

    If the goal is to genuinely improve NS2, then please listen.

    By now, I think it's obvious the PDT's goal isn't to genuinely improve NS2, it's to attract more new players to NS2 (or achieve whatever objective UWE set for them, so they can continue working in the future).

    And this is exactly why so many of the changes are controversial (large server change being a great example), the PDT doesn't seem to have the interests of the current community at heart, they want to attract new players and retain them, so they'll do anything it takes to do that, current players be damned.

    Many people will disagree, but the PDT's actions have pretty much demonstrated this.

    And before people argue that genuinely improving ns2 and attracting new players are the same objective, this is not the case in many scenarios.

    I guess only time will tell if the course the PDT has taken is the right one.
    woozaChrisStark
  • sweetiebotsweetiebot Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-05-20 Member: 185309Posts: 3
    I don't even play this game anymore, but these changes have upset me
    Cr4zyb4st4rdBobby_Wasabirebirth
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