I played last night to test the Shine translation and I realised the new ragdoll dissolve. It looks unnaturally and I like the old one, too. This is a change I like to be changed back. Though a toggle for this would be usefull as I understand the comp players among us. They want fast gameplay, more fps and such things. The normal players I guess want look and feel. Just make a toggle between old and new dissolve and everyone is happy.
I played last night to test the Shine translation and I realised the new ragdoll dissolve. It looks unnaturally and I like the old one, too. This is a change I like to be changed back. Though a toggle for this would be usefull as I understand the comp players among us. They want fast gameplay, more fps and such things. The normal players I guess want look and feel. Just make a toggle between old and new dissolve and everyone is happy.
Isn't the toggle already on ns2+ but now the ns2+ option is the default? Can someone explain to me if the new update dissolve is different than the ns2+ toggle or drastically different? If not, you already have the toggle if you put it back to the way it was before. I guess the thinking behind this is rookies will stop spraying after an alien dies because they will clearly see them dead. Perhaps, but I think the problem with aiming is a lot more than the dissolve in this game. I would think that would be a small part of it.
Isn't the bigger issue being marines not being able to kill an alien in the first place? Also, how difficult it is for many marine players to shoot high accuracy. Would the game be more fun in a pub environment if people were shooting better? Should that be a focus? IMO, there should be specific tutorials on how to aim with higher accuracy and/or ways to make this game easier to shoot in a pub environment (bigger hitbox, etc). I think that would be more fun for players. The problem with that might be good players would be even more dominant on marines, so you may have to limit that somehow.
Even though I had a fair warning, that name feature still screwed with me. First my tag was gone, and I didn't know why, now I have it on steam... I have to say that this is mildly annoying.
edit: And if I weren't reading the forums, I would be confused and annoyed as hell. I mean, who in their right mind would assume that a game can actually have the rights to change your steam name?
One solution to attract new players could be dumbing down the game, but thanks god the devs didnt go that way.
And by looking on this chart one thing is clear: No, large servers didnt help to hold or grow playerbase.
Agree on the dumbing down, but the rest -- well, lets stop the rhetoric and look at the facts. This is important, so the PDT can be informed and make the appropriate decisions.
To refresh, the previous analysis up to April 19th:
The overall playerbase has dropped since the the 294 patch was released on April 12. The lowest it's been in four weeks
The exception, of course, are the peaks -- especially on the 16th, 17th and 18th. Woozas was active on the 16th, 17th and 18th.
The highest peak on the 18th, we have a third large server active called 'Mutiny'. Three large servers = the highest peak since April 11, before patch 294.
After the 18th Mutiny is taken down, and Woozas is DDOSed -- and the player base drops again
Continuing April 20 to now:
April 20th - April 23rd. Same reduced playerbase. Peak at 396. All large servers down.
April 24th, peak at 450
April 25th, peak at 536
What's changed? Glad you asked. On April 24th and 25th, a new large server appeared and filled both days, 41 players -- [FR] Cp0x-B0ul0n@X-DuaL Xe0n
There may be others, I don't know, I know of this one as I played on it. So, those high peaks are again due to in part a large server being present (actually, the server was up on the 23rd as well, but wasn't full, so even that '396' owes some players to it). Notice how this is an enlarged player base in addition to the small server player base, and in addition to the weekend fluctuation.
Since 294, the following is true (again, as before):
The player base is at its highest when large servers are active, and at its lowest when large servers are not
The idea that if the large servers didn't exist that all these players would move to smaller servers and fill them up is now proven not true. You can bet some players are certainly playing on smaller servers to get their fix, yet we are still about 70-100 players down from earlier in the month (actually, 200 down from its peak, but about 70-100 on average).
Large servers attract players. Large servers keep people playing.
It's also worth noting that while Woozas was limited to two large servers, we have now had two independent server operators initiate large servers in response to Woozas being down -- 'Mutiny' and '[FR] Cp0x-B0ul0n@X'. That is, to make it simple:
There is on-going demand for large server gameplay.
It's not going to go away. People want to play Large. And again -- the player base was at its highest since the patch when three large servers were active. Also, the highest points in March and April -- not to mention the average, of course -- were while Woozas was active. I'd really love to see the numbers with four large servers permanently active. I'd run my own if I could afford it.
So, enough dePARA. You may not like it. You may not agree. But Large servers keep people playing NS2, and there are here to stay. Well, unless the PDT locks them out entirely.
Now if this changes, I'll happily admit I'm wrong. The numbers will, after all, speak for themselves.
In the meantime, as the goal is to attract and retain players, I'll re-iterate my previous stance: Large servers allow rookies to learn and enjoy the game in an environment where they won't get penalised for a mistake. As a result Large servers make better learning grounds for rookies than small. If we want to attract and retain rookies, promote Large servers to them, and they will keep coming back for more.
But Large servers keep people playing a mod of NS2.
Large servers allow rookies to learn and enjoy the game in an environment where they won't get penalised for a mistake. As a result Large servers make better learning grounds for rookies than small. If we want to attract and retain rookies, promote Large servers to them, and they will keep coming back for more.
If they never make the jump to vanilla servers, as you say, then then you can not promote it as a playground for Rookies.
Now the question is, if ns2Large would not exist, would Rookies gather on vanilla servers that pose some kind of middleground between Rookie only and "pro" servers? Would the server landscape be more skill deverse again? Would NS1 combat like fragmentation stop?
And here's mine: Oblivion, Fallout 3, Skyrim etc are all still played today due to 'mods'. The same is now true for NS2. This is a bad thing?
Large servers allow rookies to learn and enjoy the game in an environment where they won't get penalised for a mistake. As a result Large servers make better learning grounds for rookies than small. If we want to attract and retain rookies, promote Large servers to them, and they will keep coming back for more.
If they never make the jump to vanilla servers then then you can not promote it as a playground for Rookies.
Sure you can. You say, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, once they breach their green status have a popup along the lines of: 'Now you've earned your stripes, for a more strategic experience join a smaller 24 player server and see how you go!".
We keep on going on about the high skill ceiling, that this isn't going to change (it's part of what makes NS2 what it is, and I agree), and that it's this same ceiling that turns rookies away.
We also know that large servers are more forgiving for rookies, since their individual decisions have less impact on the team overall. They can learn the game and get a sense of achievement in their actions, rather than feeling like a failure for making a mistake, or getting shouted at by their team mates.
Most importantly, they get to experiment with lifeforms and weapons and have fun without causing their team to lose. This keeps them coming back for more.
Once they're hooked, and think they're king-shit, lets nudge them to smaller servers where they will be humbled and learn the finer points of NS2 in order to improve their skills
However all that games you list have a huge fanbase to survive big fragmentation. NS1 (itself a mod for HL1) didn't have it. Does NS2 have it?
My opinion is, that mods ofc have their place, but should be treated as such: Addendum to the game. For NS2 that'd mean:
☑ Clear separation and marked as modification. Not showing in same serverbrowser list by default, especially not as first entry.
☒ Not whitelisted / ranked.
However all that games you list have a huge fanbase to survive big fragmentation. NS1 (itself a mod for HL1) didn't have it. Does NS2 have it?
My opinion is, that mods ofc have their place, but should be treated as such: Addendum to the game. For NS2 that'd mean:
☑ Clear separation and marked as modification. Not showing in same serverbrowser list by default, especially not as first entry.
☒ Not whitelisted / ranked.
If you're going this route you need to enforce it to be strictly vanilla only, unless you're admitting to favoritism. This means no NS2+, Shine, or other game improvements allowed in ranked servers.
And here's mine: Oblivion, Fallout 3, Skyrim etc are all still played today due to 'mods'. The same is now true for NS2. This is a bad thing?
Could you please stop making a big deal out of ns2large "mod"?
Like, comparing it to Skyrim mods is kind of ridiculous, but please, go ahead and suggest it as mod of the year @moddb.com.
"NS2Large, the amazing mod that increases slot count from 24 to 42 slots." Great job to the ns2large modders, really, great job!
Large servers allow rookies to learn and enjoy the game in an environment where they won't get penalised for a mistake. As a result Large servers make better learning grounds for rookies than small. If we want to attract and retain rookies, promote Large servers to them, and they will keep coming back for more.
If they never make the jump to vanilla servers then then you can not promote it as a playground for Rookies.
Sure you can. You say, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, once they breach their green status have a popup along the lines of: 'Now you've earned your stripes, for a more strategic experience join a smaller 24 player server and see how you go!".
We keep on going on about the high skill ceiling, that this isn't going to change (it's part of what makes NS2 what it is, and I agree), and that it's this same ceiling that turns rookies away.
We also know that large servers are more forgiving for rookies, since their individual decisions have less impact on the team overall. They can learn the game and get a sense of achievement in their actions, rather than feeling like a failure for making a mistake, or getting shouted at by their team mates.
Most importantly, they get to experiment with lifeforms and weapons and have fun without causing their team to lose. This keeps them coming back for more.
Once they're hooked, and think they're king-****, lets nudge them to smaller servers where they will be humbled and learn the finer points of NS2 in order to improve their skills
That's my op, anyway.
You may get shouted at on any slot count. It solely depends on the people playing on it.
And who the hell cares if you lose in a pub game? Why do you think that every normal slot count player is a raging tryhard? EVEN IF, why would anyone care about some idiot shouting in a pub match?
You say that >24 slot server gameplay is more forgiving, but actually it's just more stale and meaningless. The rookies are throwing themselves into their deaths over and over again for NOTHING. They are not learning anything other than the basics, but they already learn those on rookie only servers. If you make a mistake, you (may) lose, but you'll learn from it. If making mistakes is meaningless, you're not going to learn shit.
In the meantime, as the goal is to attract and retain players, I'll re-iterate my previous stance: Large servers allow rookies to learn and enjoy the game in an environment where they won't get penalised for a mistake. As a result Large servers make better learning grounds for rookies than small. If we want to attract and retain rookies, promote Large servers to them, and they will keep coming back for more.
This argument keeps coming back and I frequently struggle with it.
Large servers may be a more forgiving place to play for rookies but I don't think they learn the game there at all. Far from it. The more players you have in the team the less interaction any of them are likely to have with the core mechanics of the game. Building/Defending RTs etc. Blocking Lanes etc. When you have a saturation of players, there is less requirement on any individual to contribute to the game, yes. However I believe (as do many others) that this does a disservice to Rookies who actually need to learn in an environment full of other players at a similar skill level with guidance from experienced players. The mentor idea that has been floated around recently is an excellent one for example.
The argument that there is only either Large or Small is erroneous in my opinion, particularly around rookies and retention. What Rookies need is a solid tutorial for both lifeforms (I've played the new ones that are coming soon - they are EXCELLENT.) and servers where they can practice, not be afraid to make a mistake and ask questions and most of all, have an opportunity to see as much of the game as possible.
The mentor idea that has been floated around recently is an excellent one for example.
I have said this many times before and it is time I do it again. ROOKIES DO NOT NEED VETERANS TO TEACH THEM! Coaching and mentor programs have been tried before and have not had any success. This alone is enough to prove that veterans trying to teach rookies has little or no effect on player retention.
Coaching/mentoring would be unwanted by the majority of rookies. I know this because it already is. Go on any pub server with any amount of rookies and you will have a hard time finding even one that is willing to actually listen to you. These players only play the game for 2 hours and quit forever regardless of any training.
The people who would benefit the most from coaching are more intermediate players who are willing to seek it out already.
Coaching, mentoring, or whatever you want to call it is just not worth any time or effort.
Rookies really do not need veterans to teach them. If you do not believe me watch the videos in this spoiler.
These guys have never played ns2.
These guys had some minor practice before hand but almost all of them are total rookies.
This is a full round on a rookie only server. http://www.twitch.tv/calego/v/38082162
In those videos you will see that rookies do indeed learn the game on their very own. Sure, they do not play the way we veterans expect them to but that is not the point. Rookies are very new to the game and they do not know what things are. Let them learn at their own pace so that they are more willing to continue learning when they get to regular servers.
@Nordic I've never seen a mentor program executed properly. I have however seen certain players on certain servers farm rookies for KD stats and dress it up as 'mentoring'.
If it's done correctly, it is the single best way of teaching someone this game and retaining them as a player. Conversely, if it's abused or executed poorly, it could very well be the worst possible way of teaching rookies and end up pushing them away. I still remember the games where I learned to Alien Comm. I wish I could remember the names of the players that taught me, but I can't. I can however, remember that I had 0 confidence, but decided to ask if I could give it a try anyway. I was helped with every question I had to ask and I'm convinced that those early lessons from an experienced team kept me coming back to this game.
However, don't get me wrong - the crux of my post was not actually about mentoring/mentorship. It was that I don't believe Rookies stand a chance of learning anything on any server that is 80-90% populated by veterans and this problem is compounded by the fact that large servers with a saturation of players tends to take away the opportunity to do things other than respawn a lot. Rookies may not need veterans to teach them, but they absolutely require an appropriate environment to learn in.
We all know the saying easy to learn hard to master. I believe NS2 is hard to learn and harder to master. There is not particularly a problem with this, things that are hard to learn are more rewarding when you do learn them, but I believe this game can be unnecessarily hard to learn in the first place, 'Hidden Mechanics' etc. Having spent a few evenings spectating Rookie games lately, I see a trend where the team that finishes the game is quite often populated by a majority of people who weren't even around for the game start. A lot of endless wandering occurs from people not really knowing what they should do next. They get the impression that the game is boring and has no real aim. I'll be very interested at the retention figures after the new tutorials get pushed though!
April 25th, peak at 536
What's changed? Glad you asked. On April 24th and 25th, a new large server appeared and filled both days, 41 players -- [FR] Cp0x-B0ul0n@X-DuaL Xe0n
Pretty sure that's because it was a new French server, not because of large.
Earlier that week another French server with active admins was started. People have flooded it despite it wasn't even configured properly. Also, we've managed to summon some veterans into the game April 24-25.
The fact is that there were no active french-speaking servers for around 6-8 months.
However, don't get me wrong - the crux of my post was not actually about mentoring/mentorship. It was that I don't believe Rookies stand a chance of learning anything on any server that is 80-90% populated by veterans and this problem is compounded by the fact that large servers with a saturation of players tends to take away the opportunity to do things other than respawn a lot. Rookies may not need veterans to teach them, but they absolutely require an appropriate environment to learn in.
I know the crux was not about mentoring. That is just a sore spot for me, because I so disagree with it. I keep seeing people saying rookies need mentors and that they can't learn without veterans. It is just untrue. I saw your post an opportunity to highlight that. I agree that rookies need an appropriate environment. I don't disagree with the crux of your post.
I've never seen a mentor program executed properly. I have however seen certain players on certain servers farm rookies for KD stats and dress it up as 'mentoring'.
If it's done correctly, it is the single best way of teaching someone this game and retaining them as a player. Conversely, if it's abused or executed poorly, it could very well be the worst possible way of teaching rookies and end up pushing them away. I still remember the games where I learned to Alien Comm. I wish I could remember the names of the players that taught me, but I can't. I can however, remember that I had 0 confidence, but decided to ask if I could give it a try anyway. I was helped with every question I had to ask and I'm convinced that those early lessons from an experienced team kept me coming back to this game.
I have seen a few mentor programs attempted. I even joined one of them. It does not matter how they were executed. Even if you had UWE support, could figure out the logistics of it, and managed to have a real system in place it would still fall short in the ways I described. The problem is not on the mentor side.
The problem is coaching/mentoring would be unwanted by the majority of rookies. I know this because it already is. Go on any pub server with any amount of rookies and you will have a hard time finding even one that is willing to actually listen to you. I used to actively try to help rookies for hundreds of hours before I got tired of it. Few things are more rewarding than helping a rookie learn the game. I have had a few players that actually listened to me, were willing to learn, and did learn the game. These players were very enthusiastic about the whole thing. I steam friended these players to keep track of them. Every single one of these enthusiastic rookies promptly quit ns2. None of them had more than 25 hours steam time. What is worse is that I was that I only ever found a few players who were actually willing to accept my help out of many hundreds. I even invited and encouraged these rookies to come join me for games. They were nice people, good people, but they would not. I asked why they quit ns2 weeks later, and months later, and it simply did not appeal to them. They would rather play something else.
The problem is that it is a needle in a haystack. Foxy, you and I are needles. We made it. We enjoyed it. We became veterans. Thousands of rookies try ns2, and so few stick around. For a veteran to find a rookie who wants a mentor is hard enough. I have gone down that path. To find a rookie who will stick with ns2 is even harder. The problem is that the rookies who would want and or benefit from mentoring is a fraction of a percent. There is just not enough of them for a mentor program to be worth anything.
What is needed is systemic change. We need those new tutorials that are coming. We need to small little quality of life changes that the PDT are experimenting with. I know you agree on those points. Mentoring just is not worth the time.
Fuck me can we be done with this already, its all become very boring to debate on.
Yes, ns2large does not accurately depict what the game developers have intended.
Yes, rookies flock there as the common mindset is for people to join the most populous server there is, see Battlefield.
There should be no divide whatsoever, let the players decide where they want to play who are we to judge?
We are all ONE community, there are no purists, elitists or wooza communities, you need to stow away your pointless nerd rage and enjoy the game YOU want to enjoy.
Want 42? Play 42! want 6v6? Go play comp! We all need to work together and stop showing outsiders how bitchy we are and embrace them all with open arms. In the kind words of Frozen.
Could you please stop making a big deal out of ns2large "mod"?
I would love to. I don't consider it a mod -- that's the argument put forward by those who don't like large servers to try and make them seem illegitimate. I agree with you, it's not a mod, it's NS2.
You say that >24 slot server gameplay is more forgiving, but actually it's just more stale and meaningless. The rookies are throwing themselves into their deaths over and over again for NOTHING. They are not learning anything other than the basics, but they already learn those on rookie only servers. If you make a mistake, you (may) lose, but you'll learn from it. If making mistakes is meaningless, you're not going to learn ****.
I guess that's where we differ. Read this post and its links to see what rookies actually think.
And for myself, it's true gameplay on large servers is different to small. However different tactics arise on large servers, and there is simply no comparison when it comes to teamwork and commanding. Getting 20 players to work as a team takes effort, and glorious when it comes together. No really, you haven't seen how amazing NS2 can be until you have two equally matched 20 v 20 teams and the back and forth that goes on. Hands down the best games of NS2 I've ever played.
And you haven't earned your commander balls until you've managed 20 players, executing a strategy, responding to requests across the map, and taking the team to victory. Going to a small server and comming after that -- you can do it with your toes while sipping a gin and tonic in each hand and watching Babylon 5 out of the corner of your eye. Walk in the park.
This argument keeps coming back and I frequently struggle with it.
Large servers may be a more forgiving place to play for rookies but I don't think they learn the game there at all. Far from it. The more players you have in the team the less interaction any of them are likely to have with the core mechanics of the game. Building/Defending RTs etc. Blocking Lanes etc....
This is basically a difference of opinion. Absolutely the small server game is different from the large. But I disagree in the sense they don't learn core mechanics, they absolutely do, building and res defence is all part of it, if not more so, and teamwork is more essential than ever. With more players on a server, it's easier for the other team to hit res, so likewise your team needs to be aware and respond (or, better, be the ones pressuring and make them respond).
The new tutorials sound great, complete agreement there.
**** me can we be done with this already, its all become very boring to debate on.
Yes, ns2large does not accurately depict what the game developers have intended.
Yes, rookies flock there as the common mindset is for people to join the most populous server there is, see Battlefield.
There should be no divide whatsoever, let the players decide where they want to play who are we to judge?
We are all ONE community, there are no purists, elitists or wooza communities, you need to stow away your pointless nerd rage and enjoy the game YOU want to enjoy.
Want 42? Play 42! want 6v6? Go play comp! We all need to work together and stop showing outsiders how bitchy we are and embrace them all with open arms. In the kind words of Frozen.
I want to have sex with your post Yojimbo. Sweaty, meaty, rampant sex with questionable fetishes and everything!
The only thing left to say is this -- I post what I have in response to those that keep harping on that large servers are killing the game. I see misinformation, and it gets under my skin. I've proven this is not the case. Indeed, NS2Large is a vital part of NS2 now and -- in my opinion, just me -- should be encouraged. If there were no posts about large servers 'aren't NS2', I wouldn't be posting, but someone has to step in with common sense.
If you want to retain new players. Why not make more content? Why not a cash shop for skins? Why not F2P? It IS the new business model that nearly all new games are touching one way or another.
We have SO many custom maps, bring more of those out. Even after 100 hours you get bored of playing the same old 9 maps. New guns, we alien classes, new textures and skins!
Content > small repetitive game changes! Any day of the week!
If you want to retain new players. Why not make more content? Why not a cash shop for skins? Why not F2P? It IS the new business model that nearly all new games are touching one way or another.
We have SO many custom maps, bring more of those out. Even after 100 hours you get bored of playing the same old 9 maps. New guns, we alien classes, new textures and skins!
Content > small repetitive game changes! Any day of the week!
Yes and YES but no to f2p, our influx of hackers are thankfully low, nothing stopping people from re-creating accounts straight after they are banned. A game with a financial attachment puts off but the most diehard hackers.
But I disagree in the sense they don't learn core mechanics, they absolutely do, building and res defence is all part of it, if not more so, and teamwork is more essential than ever. With more players on a server, it's easier for the other team to hit res, so likewise your team needs to be aware and respond (or, better, be the ones pressuring and make them respond).
With all due respect, this is utter nonsense. I have (unfortunately) played a couple of games on tram in 24p servers when I got back into the game a few weeks ago. In those games it did not matter at all what you did as a player - the teams were so oversized compared to the map that you'd encounter a player virtually everywhere. "Laneblocking" was simply a matter of statistics; if you have enough players, there's always someone going down a certain route. I assume (yes, it is an assumption, crucify me) that this scales on bigger maps with more players. In short, what you or what "the team" does does not matter besides giant pushes, because someone who may not even pay attention is bound to do it, anyway. Doubly so for minor things as pushing res.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
@Martigen
You ability of cherry picking in combination with a highly manipulative style of writing is amazing.
Are you working for a advertising company?
Anyway.
So you picking 3 days: April 23rd,April 24th, April 25th and these 3 days are the proof for you that the changes are useless.
3 days compared 2 YEARS with NS2large where the game has constantly lost players down to 190 last Sep.
Sorry, but i cant see that your servers help NS2 grow in any way.
Also this argument:" But Large servers keep people playing NS2, and there are here to stay."
Really? If so, why is the game constantly losing players?
So again, you cherry pick the surprising fact the game has "lost" 46 players cause the server is down and people refuse to play on normal servers, but ignoring the fact the playerbase is going down anyway.
And thats what the devs are adressing, there goal is to grow or atleast hold the overall playerbase and not to please a subcommunity.
i dont know why we still discussion here btw:
You try to prove that the game has most players with a full NS2large server and shouting this out:
"Look, 2 NS2large servers are full, thats the proof. People want this"
But wait, these servers are full?
So, WTF is the problem here.
It looks like people can still play there, isnt it amazing?
@Martigen
You ability of cherry picking in combination with a highly manipulative style of writing is amazing.
Are you working for a advertising company?
Anyway.
So you picking 3 days: April 23rd,April 24th, April 25th and these 3 days are the proof for you that the changes are useless.
3 days compared 2 YEARS with NS2large where the game has constantly lost players down to 190 last Sep.
Sorry, but i cant see that your servers help NS2 grow in any way.
Also this argument:" But Large servers keep people playing NS2, and there are here to stay."
Really? If so, why is the game constantly losing players?
So again, you cherry pick the surprising fact the game has "lost" 46 players cause the server is down and people refuse to play on normal servers, but ignoring the fact the playerbase is going down anyway.
And thats what the devs are adressing, there goal is to grow or atleast hold the overall playerbase and not to please a subcommunity.
i dont know why we still discussion here btw:
You try to prove that the game has most players with a full NS2large server and shouting this out:
"Look, 2 NS2large servers are full, thats the proof. People want this"
But wait, these servers are full?
So, WTF is the problem here.
It looks like people can still play there, isnt it amazing?
But I disagree in the sense they don't learn core mechanics, they absolutely do, building and res defence is all part of it, if not more so, and teamwork is more essential than ever. With more players on a server, it's easier for the other team to hit res, so likewise your team needs to be aware and respond (or, better, be the ones pressuring and make them respond).
With all due respect, this is utter nonsense. I have (unfortunately) played a couple of games on tram in 24p servers when I got back into the game a few weeks ago. In those games it did not matter at all what you did as a player - the teams were so oversized compared to the map that you'd encounter a player virtually everywhere. "Laneblocking" was simply a matter of statistics; if you have enough players, there's always someone going down a certain route. I assume (yes, it is an assumption, crucify me) that this scales on bigger maps with more players. In short, what you or what "the team" does does not matter besides giant pushes, because someone who may not even pay attention is bound to do it, anyway. Doubly so for minor things as pushing res.
No crucification necessary All I can say is I speak from the experience of hundreds of games, probably thousands actually, it's been more than two years playing Woozas for me. And I was a clanner from NS1 days where 6v6 was what we practiced for. And for my clan, at least, we were top of our game (stf//). God I miss relocations...
Anyway, there's how you think a large game will play out, and how it actually does. And just like small servers there are shit games, and average games, and gems. So you can't judge them on ten games, or even twenty. You have to play for a month or so to see it all. Same would go for any multiplayer game.
And to approach a large game the way you approach a small game is a mistake. Different strategies play out. Yeah, there are people all over the map, and yet some nodes remain contested while others don't. Strange I know, but it happens depending on map and teams. And strategies like Arms first prove less useful than PG for example -- because you have numbers on your side. But by the same token there are more gorges, more tunnels... you get the idea. But even then that's not always the case. I've had immense fun rushing W2 with 20 rines. If they can aim, fantastic, otherwise it's a risk. The natural counters on each side extrapolate, and it's a very different -- but, to me at least and I can't speak for others, more fun -- gameplay. It's certainly more action, and some small server strategies simply will not work. As they shouldn't, it's not a small server. And that's probably part of the issue for those small server regulars that try it: of course it's a different game. Go in with an open mind and don't play it like it's 8v8.
Anyway, much has been said of this in the past. There will always be two camps while the player base is low. But ultimately as @Yojimbo pointed out, we're all on the same side, we're all passionate about NS2. Having played NS for ten years, successfully won tournaments in NS1 as a clan, having played pub in NS2 since I sponsored black armor, I like to think I have thousands of hours on both sides of the equation. And for me, at least, if it weren't for Large servers I wouldn't even be playing NS2 anymore. Going by the stat analysis that I've presented since 294, I'm clearly not the only one who feels this way.
I guess there's not much more that needs to be said.
@Martigen
You ability of cherry picking in combination with a highly manipulative style of writing is amazing.
Are you working for a advertising company?
Anyway.
So you picking 3 days: April 23rd,April 24th, April 25th and these 3 days are the proof for you that the changes are useless.
3 days compared 2 YEARS with NS2large where the game has constantly lost players down to 190 last Sep.
Sorry, but i cant see that your servers help NS2 grow in any way.
Also this argument:" But Large servers keep people playing NS2, and there are here to stay."
Really? If so, why is the game constantly losing players?
So again, you cherry pick the surprising fact the game has "lost" 46 players cause the server is down and people refuse to play on normal servers, but ignoring the fact the playerbase is going down anyway.
And thats what the devs are adressing, there goal is to grow or atleast hold the overall playerbase and not to please a subcommunity.
i dont know why we still discussion here btw:
You try to prove that the game has most players with a full NS2large server and shouting this out:
"Look, 2 NS2large servers are full, thats the proof. People want this"
But wait, these servers are full?
So, WTF is the problem here.
It looks like people can still play there, isnt it amazing?
"People don't like big servers because the player base goes down anyway, and if there's a drop in players if a server goes down it doesn't matter because the playerbase goes down anyway"?
That's what I get from your post, and it doesn't make any sense.
But I disagree in the sense they don't learn core mechanics, they absolutely do, building and res defence is all part of it, if not more so, and teamwork is more essential than ever. With more players on a server, it's easier for the other team to hit res, so likewise your team needs to be aware and respond (or, better, be the ones pressuring and make them respond).
With all due respect, this is utter nonsense. I have (unfortunately) played a couple of games on tram in 24p servers when I got back into the game a few weeks ago. In those games it did not matter at all what you did as a player - the teams were so oversized compared to the map that you'd encounter a player virtually everywhere. "Laneblocking" was simply a matter of statistics; if you have enough players, there's always someone going down a certain route. I assume (yes, it is an assumption, crucify me) that this scales on bigger maps with more players. In short, what you or what "the team" does does not matter besides giant pushes, because someone who may not even pay attention is bound to do it, anyway. Doubly so for minor things as pushing res.
No crucification necessary All I can say is I speak from the experience of hundreds of games, probably thousands actually, it's been more than two years playing Woozas for me. And I was a clanner from NS1 days where 6v6 was what we practiced for. And for my clan, at least, we were top of our game (stf//). God I miss relocations...
Anyway, there's how you think a large game will play out, and how it actually does. And just like small servers there are **** games, and average games, and gems. So you can't judge them on ten games, or even twenty. You have to play for a month or so to see it all. Same would go for any multiplayer game.
And to approach a large game the way you approach a small game is a mistake. Different strategies play out. Yeah, there are people all over the map, and yet some nodes remain contested while others don't. Strange I know, but it happens depending on map and teams. And strategies like Arms first prove less useful than PG for example -- because you have numbers on your side. But by the same token there are more gorges, more tunnels... you get the idea. But even then that's not always the case. I've had immense fun rushing W2 with 20 rines. If they can aim, fantastic, otherwise it's a risk. The natural counters on each side extrapolate, and it's a very different -- but, to me at least and I can't speak for others, more fun -- gameplay. It's certainly more action, and some small server strategies simply will not work. As they shouldn't, it's not a small server. And that's probably part of the issue for those small server regulars that try it: of course it's a different game. Go in with an open mind and don't play it like it's 8v8.
Anyway, much has been said of this in the past. There will always be two camps while the player base is low. But ultimately as @Yojimbo pointed out, we're all on the same side, we're all passionate about NS2. Having played NS for ten years, successfully won tournaments in NS1 as a clan, having played pub in NS2 since I sponsored black armor, I like to think I have thousands of hours on both sides of the equation. And for me, at least, if it weren't for Large servers I wouldn't even be playing NS2 anymore. Going by the stat analysis that I've presented since 294, I'm clearly not the only one who feels this way.
I guess there's not much more that needs to be said.
I'm not saying there's on strategy at all involved, but specifically attacking res seems a lot more pointless. (Which is the example I commented on.) Also, the large server meta seems quite different from normal (<- I am aware of this wording and refuse to change it) size, which is a shame; I imagine it makes transitioning difficult for new players. Not that they want, I guess, but it's a missed opportunity.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
@F0rdPrefect
"People don't like big servers because the player base goes down anyway" - No, they dont like it cause the reason Bicsum posted above.
" and if there's a drop in players if a server goes down it doesn't matter because the playerbase goes down anyway" - Yes, it doesnt matter cause these servers didnt help to hold or grow playerbase in the long run.
And thats what the 42slot servers ops trying to imply to us.
"These servers help to atleast hold the playerbase."
But thats not true.
They exist cause some players like a dumbed down NS2 where your personal income to the game is near zero, thats all.
Comments
Isn't the toggle already on ns2+ but now the ns2+ option is the default? Can someone explain to me if the new update dissolve is different than the ns2+ toggle or drastically different? If not, you already have the toggle if you put it back to the way it was before. I guess the thinking behind this is rookies will stop spraying after an alien dies because they will clearly see them dead. Perhaps, but I think the problem with aiming is a lot more than the dissolve in this game. I would think that would be a small part of it.
Isn't the bigger issue being marines not being able to kill an alien in the first place? Also, how difficult it is for many marine players to shoot high accuracy. Would the game be more fun in a pub environment if people were shooting better? Should that be a focus? IMO, there should be specific tutorials on how to aim with higher accuracy and/or ways to make this game easier to shoot in a pub environment (bigger hitbox, etc). I think that would be more fun for players. The problem with that might be good players would be even more dominant on marines, so you may have to limit that somehow.
would appear a dev requested its removal from ns2+ alongside the patch.
edit: And if I weren't reading the forums, I would be confused and annoyed as hell. I mean, who in their right mind would assume that a game can actually have the rights to change your steam name?
Using the same reference as you:
http://steamcharts.com/app/4920#1m
To refresh, the previous analysis up to April 19th:
- The overall playerbase has dropped since the the 294 patch was released on April 12. The lowest it's been in four weeks
- The exception, of course, are the peaks -- especially on the 16th, 17th and 18th. Woozas was active on the 16th, 17th and 18th.
- The highest peak on the 18th, we have a third large server active called 'Mutiny'. Three large servers = the highest peak since April 11, before patch 294.
- After the 18th Mutiny is taken down, and Woozas is DDOSed -- and the player base drops again
Continuing April 20 to now:- April 20th - April 23rd. Same reduced playerbase. Peak at 396. All large servers down.
- April 24th, peak at 450
- April 25th, peak at 536
- What's changed? Glad you asked. On April 24th and 25th, a new large server appeared and filled both days, 41 players -- [FR] Cp0x-B0ul0n@X-DuaL Xe0n
There may be others, I don't know, I know of this one as I played on it. So, those high peaks are again due to in part a large server being present (actually, the server was up on the 23rd as well, but wasn't full, so even that '396' owes some players to it). Notice how this is an enlarged player base in addition to the small server player base, and in addition to the weekend fluctuation.Since 294, the following is true (again, as before):
It's also worth noting that while Woozas was limited to two large servers, we have now had two independent server operators initiate large servers in response to Woozas being down -- 'Mutiny' and '[FR] Cp0x-B0ul0n@X'. That is, to make it simple:
- There is on-going demand for large server gameplay.
It's not going to go away. People want to play Large. And again -- the player base was at its highest since the patch when three large servers were active. Also, the highest points in March and April -- not to mention the average, of course -- were while Woozas was active. I'd really love to see the numbers with four large servers permanently active. I'd run my own if I could afford it.So, enough dePARA. You may not like it. You may not agree. But Large servers keep people playing NS2, and there are here to stay. Well, unless the PDT locks them out entirely.
Now if this changes, I'll happily admit I'm wrong. The numbers will, after all, speak for themselves.
In the meantime, as the goal is to attract and retain players, I'll re-iterate my previous stance: Large servers allow rookies to learn and enjoy the game in an environment where they won't get penalised for a mistake. As a result Large servers make better learning grounds for rookies than small. If we want to attract and retain rookies, promote Large servers to them, and they will keep coming back for more.
If they never make the jump to vanilla servers, as you say, then then you can not promote it as a playground for Rookies.
Now the question is, if ns2Large would not exist, would Rookies gather on vanilla servers that pose some kind of middleground between Rookie only and "pro" servers? Would the server landscape be more skill deverse again? Would NS1 combat like fragmentation stop?
And here's mine: Oblivion, Fallout 3, Skyrim etc are all still played today due to 'mods'. The same is now true for NS2. This is a bad thing?
Sure you can. You say, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, once they breach their green status have a popup along the lines of: 'Now you've earned your stripes, for a more strategic experience join a smaller 24 player server and see how you go!".
We keep on going on about the high skill ceiling, that this isn't going to change (it's part of what makes NS2 what it is, and I agree), and that it's this same ceiling that turns rookies away.
We also know that large servers are more forgiving for rookies, since their individual decisions have less impact on the team overall. They can learn the game and get a sense of achievement in their actions, rather than feeling like a failure for making a mistake, or getting shouted at by their team mates.
Most importantly, they get to experiment with lifeforms and weapons and have fun without causing their team to lose. This keeps them coming back for more.
Once they're hooked, and think they're king-shit, lets nudge them to smaller servers where they will be humbled and learn the finer points of NS2 in order to improve their skills
That's my op, anyway.
My opinion is, that mods ofc have their place, but should be treated as such: Addendum to the game. For NS2 that'd mean:
☑ Clear separation and marked as modification. Not showing in same serverbrowser list by default, especially not as first entry.
☒ Not whitelisted / ranked.
If you're going this route you need to enforce it to be strictly vanilla only, unless you're admitting to favoritism. This means no NS2+, Shine, or other game improvements allowed in ranked servers.
Like, comparing it to Skyrim mods is kind of ridiculous, but please, go ahead and suggest it as mod of the year @moddb.com.
"NS2Large, the amazing mod that increases slot count from 24 to 42 slots." Great job to the ns2large modders, really, great job!
You may get shouted at on any slot count. It solely depends on the people playing on it.
And who the hell cares if you lose in a pub game? Why do you think that every normal slot count player is a raging tryhard? EVEN IF, why would anyone care about some idiot shouting in a pub match?
You say that >24 slot server gameplay is more forgiving, but actually it's just more stale and meaningless. The rookies are throwing themselves into their deaths over and over again for NOTHING. They are not learning anything other than the basics, but they already learn those on rookie only servers. If you make a mistake, you (may) lose, but you'll learn from it. If making mistakes is meaningless, you're not going to learn shit.
This argument keeps coming back and I frequently struggle with it.
Large servers may be a more forgiving place to play for rookies but I don't think they learn the game there at all. Far from it. The more players you have in the team the less interaction any of them are likely to have with the core mechanics of the game. Building/Defending RTs etc. Blocking Lanes etc. When you have a saturation of players, there is less requirement on any individual to contribute to the game, yes. However I believe (as do many others) that this does a disservice to Rookies who actually need to learn in an environment full of other players at a similar skill level with guidance from experienced players. The mentor idea that has been floated around recently is an excellent one for example.
The argument that there is only either Large or Small is erroneous in my opinion, particularly around rookies and retention. What Rookies need is a solid tutorial for both lifeforms (I've played the new ones that are coming soon - they are EXCELLENT.) and servers where they can practice, not be afraid to make a mistake and ask questions and most of all, have an opportunity to see as much of the game as possible.
Coaching/mentoring would be unwanted by the majority of rookies. I know this because it already is. Go on any pub server with any amount of rookies and you will have a hard time finding even one that is willing to actually listen to you. These players only play the game for 2 hours and quit forever regardless of any training.
The people who would benefit the most from coaching are more intermediate players who are willing to seek it out already.
Coaching, mentoring, or whatever you want to call it is just not worth any time or effort.
Rookies really do not need veterans to teach them. If you do not believe me watch the videos in this spoiler.
These guys had some minor practice before hand but almost all of them are total rookies.
This is a full round on a rookie only server.
http://www.twitch.tv/calego/v/38082162
In those videos you will see that rookies do indeed learn the game on their very own. Sure, they do not play the way we veterans expect them to but that is not the point. Rookies are very new to the game and they do not know what things are. Let them learn at their own pace so that they are more willing to continue learning when they get to regular servers.
Rookies do not need veterans to teach them.
Options are a bad thing, forcing settings is the only way forward.
If it's done correctly, it is the single best way of teaching someone this game and retaining them as a player. Conversely, if it's abused or executed poorly, it could very well be the worst possible way of teaching rookies and end up pushing them away. I still remember the games where I learned to Alien Comm. I wish I could remember the names of the players that taught me, but I can't. I can however, remember that I had 0 confidence, but decided to ask if I could give it a try anyway. I was helped with every question I had to ask and I'm convinced that those early lessons from an experienced team kept me coming back to this game.
However, don't get me wrong - the crux of my post was not actually about mentoring/mentorship. It was that I don't believe Rookies stand a chance of learning anything on any server that is 80-90% populated by veterans and this problem is compounded by the fact that large servers with a saturation of players tends to take away the opportunity to do things other than respawn a lot. Rookies may not need veterans to teach them, but they absolutely require an appropriate environment to learn in.
We all know the saying easy to learn hard to master. I believe NS2 is hard to learn and harder to master. There is not particularly a problem with this, things that are hard to learn are more rewarding when you do learn them, but I believe this game can be unnecessarily hard to learn in the first place, 'Hidden Mechanics' etc. Having spent a few evenings spectating Rookie games lately, I see a trend where the team that finishes the game is quite often populated by a majority of people who weren't even around for the game start. A lot of endless wandering occurs from people not really knowing what they should do next. They get the impression that the game is boring and has no real aim. I'll be very interested at the retention figures after the new tutorials get pushed though!
Auto weapon pickup for one is a gameplay change that isn't included in vanilla ns2.
NS2+ is a larger change to the base game than a simple playercount modification will ever do.
Pretty sure that's because it was a new French server, not because of large.
Earlier that week another French server with active admins was started. People have flooded it despite it wasn't even configured properly. Also, we've managed to summon some veterans into the game April 24-25.
The fact is that there were no active french-speaking servers for around 6-8 months.
I have seen a few mentor programs attempted. I even joined one of them. It does not matter how they were executed. Even if you had UWE support, could figure out the logistics of it, and managed to have a real system in place it would still fall short in the ways I described. The problem is not on the mentor side.
The problem is coaching/mentoring would be unwanted by the majority of rookies. I know this because it already is. Go on any pub server with any amount of rookies and you will have a hard time finding even one that is willing to actually listen to you. I used to actively try to help rookies for hundreds of hours before I got tired of it. Few things are more rewarding than helping a rookie learn the game. I have had a few players that actually listened to me, were willing to learn, and did learn the game. These players were very enthusiastic about the whole thing. I steam friended these players to keep track of them. Every single one of these enthusiastic rookies promptly quit ns2. None of them had more than 25 hours steam time. What is worse is that I was that I only ever found a few players who were actually willing to accept my help out of many hundreds. I even invited and encouraged these rookies to come join me for games. They were nice people, good people, but they would not. I asked why they quit ns2 weeks later, and months later, and it simply did not appeal to them. They would rather play something else.
The problem is that it is a needle in a haystack. Foxy, you and I are needles. We made it. We enjoyed it. We became veterans. Thousands of rookies try ns2, and so few stick around. For a veteran to find a rookie who wants a mentor is hard enough. I have gone down that path. To find a rookie who will stick with ns2 is even harder. The problem is that the rookies who would want and or benefit from mentoring is a fraction of a percent. There is just not enough of them for a mentor program to be worth anything.
What is needed is systemic change. We need those new tutorials that are coming. We need to small little quality of life changes that the PDT are experimenting with. I know you agree on those points. Mentoring just is not worth the time.
Yes, ns2large does not accurately depict what the game developers have intended.
Yes, rookies flock there as the common mindset is for people to join the most populous server there is, see Battlefield.
There should be no divide whatsoever, let the players decide where they want to play who are we to judge?
We are all ONE community, there are no purists, elitists or wooza communities, you need to stow away your pointless nerd rage and enjoy the game YOU want to enjoy.
Want 42? Play 42! want 6v6? Go play comp! We all need to work together and stop showing outsiders how bitchy we are and embrace them all with open arms. In the kind words of Frozen.
I guess that's where we differ. Read this post and its links to see what rookies actually think.
And for myself, it's true gameplay on large servers is different to small. However different tactics arise on large servers, and there is simply no comparison when it comes to teamwork and commanding. Getting 20 players to work as a team takes effort, and glorious when it comes together. No really, you haven't seen how amazing NS2 can be until you have two equally matched 20 v 20 teams and the back and forth that goes on. Hands down the best games of NS2 I've ever played.
And you haven't earned your commander balls until you've managed 20 players, executing a strategy, responding to requests across the map, and taking the team to victory. Going to a small server and comming after that -- you can do it with your toes while sipping a gin and tonic in each hand and watching Babylon 5 out of the corner of your eye. Walk in the park.
This is basically a difference of opinion. Absolutely the small server game is different from the large. But I disagree in the sense they don't learn core mechanics, they absolutely do, building and res defence is all part of it, if not more so, and teamwork is more essential than ever. With more players on a server, it's easier for the other team to hit res, so likewise your team needs to be aware and respond (or, better, be the ones pressuring and make them respond).
The new tutorials sound great, complete agreement there.
I want to have sex with your post Yojimbo. Sweaty, meaty, rampant sex with questionable fetishes and everything!
The only thing left to say is this -- I post what I have in response to those that keep harping on that large servers are killing the game. I see misinformation, and it gets under my skin. I've proven this is not the case. Indeed, NS2Large is a vital part of NS2 now and -- in my opinion, just me -- should be encouraged. If there were no posts about large servers 'aren't NS2', I wouldn't be posting, but someone has to step in with common sense.
The bolded/italicised above nails it. Thanks Jim.
We have SO many custom maps, bring more of those out. Even after 100 hours you get bored of playing the same old 9 maps. New guns, we alien classes, new textures and skins!
Content > small repetitive game changes! Any day of the week!
Yes and YES but no to f2p, our influx of hackers are thankfully low, nothing stopping people from re-creating accounts straight after they are banned. A game with a financial attachment puts off but the most diehard hackers.
With all due respect, this is utter nonsense. I have (unfortunately) played a couple of games on tram in 24p servers when I got back into the game a few weeks ago. In those games it did not matter at all what you did as a player - the teams were so oversized compared to the map that you'd encounter a player virtually everywhere. "Laneblocking" was simply a matter of statistics; if you have enough players, there's always someone going down a certain route. I assume (yes, it is an assumption, crucify me) that this scales on bigger maps with more players. In short, what you or what "the team" does does not matter besides giant pushes, because someone who may not even pay attention is bound to do it, anyway. Doubly so for minor things as pushing res.
You ability of cherry picking in combination with a highly manipulative style of writing is amazing.
Are you working for a advertising company?
Anyway.
So you picking 3 days: April 23rd,April 24th, April 25th and these 3 days are the proof for you that the changes are useless.
3 days compared 2 YEARS with NS2large where the game has constantly lost players down to 190 last Sep.
Sorry, but i cant see that your servers help NS2 grow in any way.
Also this argument:" But Large servers keep people playing NS2, and there are here to stay."
Really? If so, why is the game constantly losing players?
So again, you cherry pick the surprising fact the game has "lost" 46 players cause the server is down and people refuse to play on normal servers, but ignoring the fact the playerbase is going down anyway.
And thats what the devs are adressing, there goal is to grow or atleast hold the overall playerbase and not to please a subcommunity.
i dont know why we still discussion here btw:
You try to prove that the game has most players with a full NS2large server and shouting this out:
"Look, 2 NS2large servers are full, thats the proof. People want this"
But wait, these servers are full?
So, WTF is the problem here.
It looks like people can still play there, isnt it amazing?
...
Anyway, there's how you think a large game will play out, and how it actually does. And just like small servers there are shit games, and average games, and gems. So you can't judge them on ten games, or even twenty. You have to play for a month or so to see it all. Same would go for any multiplayer game.
And to approach a large game the way you approach a small game is a mistake. Different strategies play out. Yeah, there are people all over the map, and yet some nodes remain contested while others don't. Strange I know, but it happens depending on map and teams. And strategies like Arms first prove less useful than PG for example -- because you have numbers on your side. But by the same token there are more gorges, more tunnels... you get the idea. But even then that's not always the case. I've had immense fun rushing W2 with 20 rines. If they can aim, fantastic, otherwise it's a risk. The natural counters on each side extrapolate, and it's a very different -- but, to me at least and I can't speak for others, more fun -- gameplay. It's certainly more action, and some small server strategies simply will not work. As they shouldn't, it's not a small server. And that's probably part of the issue for those small server regulars that try it: of course it's a different game. Go in with an open mind and don't play it like it's 8v8.
Anyway, much has been said of this in the past. There will always be two camps while the player base is low. But ultimately as @Yojimbo pointed out, we're all on the same side, we're all passionate about NS2. Having played NS for ten years, successfully won tournaments in NS1 as a clan, having played pub in NS2 since I sponsored black armor, I like to think I have thousands of hours on both sides of the equation. And for me, at least, if it weren't for Large servers I wouldn't even be playing NS2 anymore. Going by the stat analysis that I've presented since 294, I'm clearly not the only one who feels this way.
I guess there's not much more that needs to be said.
"People don't like big servers because the player base goes down anyway, and if there's a drop in players if a server goes down it doesn't matter because the playerbase goes down anyway"?
That's what I get from your post, and it doesn't make any sense.
I'm not saying there's on strategy at all involved, but specifically attacking res seems a lot more pointless. (Which is the example I commented on.) Also, the large server meta seems quite different from normal (<- I am aware of this wording and refuse to change it) size, which is a shame; I imagine it makes transitioning difficult for new players. Not that they want, I guess, but it's a missed opportunity.
"People don't like big servers because the player base goes down anyway" - No, they dont like it cause the reason Bicsum posted above.
" and if there's a drop in players if a server goes down it doesn't matter because the playerbase goes down anyway" - Yes, it doesnt matter cause these servers didnt help to hold or grow playerbase in the long run.
And thats what the 42slot servers ops trying to imply to us.
"These servers help to atleast hold the playerbase."
But thats not true.
They exist cause some players like a dumbed down NS2 where your personal income to the game is near zero, thats all.