"Decent"... "significant"... anyone know what /percentage/ (ballpark, even) of the playerbase opposes this?
I believe from the data we've tracked so far, the majority of the player-base either supports this, or didn't notice. (The is not the final word, and we will continue trying to collect feedback from a broader sample of the playerbase. This thread / discussion on the forum also contributes to that.)
"Decent"... "significant"... anyone know what /percentage/ (ballpark, even) of the playerbase opposes this?
I believe from the data we've tracked so far, the majority of the player-base either supports this, or didn't notice. (The is not the final word, and we will continue trying to collect feedback from a broader sample of the playerbase. This thread / discussion on the forum also contributes to that.)
The issue is less about the addition of Atmospheric Territories and more about it can't be disabled. Usually all these frustrating features got fixed by mods (Mostly by Mendasp and Dragon) but since they are not on good term with you guys anymore that is not going to happen. This time around this option needs to be made officially.
One cyst in a room causes the full change to happen are you telling me ONE cyst in a room makes it alien territory?
Yes that is what I am telling you.
Neutral = No presence from either team
Marine Occupied = Powernode built
Alien Occupied = At least one cyst
Marines don't even have to spend Tres to occupy a room.
Keep in mind I am not saying what should or should not happen... just what IS happening.
Case in point: I like @aeroripper 's idea.
^ I like aero's idea, just make sure the light changes don't affect fps and are tested with low setting options. Also, can you look into removing the distracting particles around the alien structures if we pick the low quality particle option?
Marines don't even have to spend Tres to occupy a room.
They have to spend time though, it's not automatically 'free' because it doesn't require tres. Building a powernode, or repairing a node slows down marine map control and that's a massive factor.
A cyst doesn't claim a room, it can be replaced in an instant at a minimal cost. Multiple cysts should be the very minimum required to claim a room, it should be a progressive change, not an instantaneous one, this game is asymmetric remember, why should aliens gain and lose control instantly just because marines do it.
A power node takes time, it clearly defines a room control and players do not complete them until marines are ready to assume control of the room with, res, gates or other structures.
As such aliens shouldn't get to claim a room for a cyst, that's not important. Multiple cysts that actually have an impact on res, a harvester, crag these things are what show aliens are controlling rooms.
For example.
This is how it works, 1-2 cysts through south tunnel and the entire section in red becomes dark, that is flat out idiotic. 90% of that area is not alien territory at all, infact, hub -> logi is a common marine pressure route (with this alien spawn)and now you have to enter a considerably darker area to push, giving skulks a substantially easier time ambushing in an area with multiple ambush locations.
The fact is these changes are clearly not thought through in the impact they have on gameplay, the amount of complaints on this forum show that. It's not that the change itself is completely stupid, just the implementation and execution has been pathetic.
Either you split these areas up into smaller areas and make the alien progression through it much more in-line with actual cysting and expansion or you make it so aliens have to really invest in an area before they claim it.
Then the whole room brightness has much less impact for people playing high light settings, low settings end up with much less visible rooms due to the lack of contrasting lights. People run that because it's a big FPS impact, now it's a pain for many, the default brightness is just too low now in those situations.
One cyst in a room causes the full change to happen are you telling me ONE cyst in a room makes it alien territory?
Yes that is what I am telling you.
Neutral = No presence from either team
Marine Occupied = Powernode built
Alien Occupied = At least one cyst
Marines don't even have to spend Tres to occupy a room.
Keep in mind I am not saying what should or should not happen... just what IS happening.
Case in point: I like @aeroripper 's idea.
I think we can all agree that room ownership should instead be decided by tres spent on it.
To avoid the "1 cyst" problem, I suggest that a minimum of 5 tres should be spent in a room to claim it (1 RT).
(This puts gorge tunnels/forts into an interesting position, but considering how they are "outposts" and likely to be reinforced by tres structures, you can likely get away with not having them affect lighting at all. Otherwise, throw in some exception for gorge structures.)
This is how it works, 1-2 cysts through south tunnel and the entire section in red becomes dark, that is flat out idiotic. 90% of that area is not alien territory at all, infact, hub -> logi is a common marine pressure route (with this alien spawn)and now you have to enter a considerably darker area to push, giving skulks a substantially easier.
You know how you'll have 5 marines (newer players of course) standing at the doorway with one gorge and a hydra guarding the entire room? Well, it's even worse now...they see that it's dark now and even more scary to engage, so they're sure not to enter and kill the one gorge that just won the game. Some marines are Pu**ies, don't push, and are just flat out scared of the dark.
The new lighting looks cool like everyone seems to agree, but it does seriously affect game flow and balance imo. If I'm forward behind enemy lines and die to a a couple skulks due to darker lighting that I otherwise might have killed under normal lighting, that's a serious game changer because you've lost your forward pressure. Revert to normal lighting if you can.
BTW, are we talking one "mature" cyst makes it alien territory?
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
For what anecdotal observations are worth, most (all? -- I haven't paid /too/ close attention) feedback I've heard has been positive. I think it fits like a comfy blanket for a lot of players.
Not sure how you guys can disagree with first hand responses. It's like me saying I farted and you disagreeing. How can you disagree with a factual observation?
Last night alone I heard at least 3 ppl say they hated the change (not just disliked). I heard nobody say they like it, and I only played a few rounds last night. It's not a comfy blanket if you're aching to get out from under it.
Not sure how you guys can disagree with first hand responses. It's like me saying I farted and you disagreeing. How can you disagree with a factual observation?
Last night alone I heard at least 3 ppl say they hated the change (not just disliked). I heard nobody say they like it, and I only played a few rounds last night. It's not a comfy blanket if you're aching to get out from under it.
Similarly, I've played several games and the feedback I've heard has been mostly positive, with a few conceding that it could use some tweaking. Most like a blanket that's still got it's store-tag on it, ya know cause it's new and all.
This is how it works, 1-2 cysts through south tunnel and the entire section in red becomes dark, that is flat out idiotic. 90% of that area is not alien territory at all, infact, hub -> logi is a common marine pressure route (with this alien spawn)and now you have to enter a considerably darker area to push, giving skulks a substantially easier.
Pretty much this.
I'm guessing, if it would check more location entities, it would slap the FPS down more? But yeah that is kinda ridiculous, what happens in Lava Falls? Well still would have the molten metal lights I guess...
If aesthetic changes like this were actually important don't you think any of the popular MP games would be focusing on it too? It's enough in DotA just to have structures destroyed to represent map control. Same should be for ns2.
Dynamic lighting is not something anyone cares about in a team based shooter or whatever genre and it's a waste of time to continue working with it. It's something that shines in single player immersion and that's IT.
Seeing precious time wasted on this just blows my mind. If you wanted to make a positive lighting change, just remove the aids red lights.
After having played for the first time after the patch, I can say that this is absolutely horrible. With all graphical effects turned to the minimum, there is nothing "atmospheric" about the lighting, it's just a dark background spotted with flecks of light. I cannot understand why a quick-tempoed skill shooter should have its difficulty coming from trying to see what's happening instead of trying to hit your target.
The recent primable power node and atmospheric lighting have been seriously the most unneeded and not wanted changes I think I can remember ever seeing. Seems to me that a small sect of opinion happens to have the power to force that opinion on the entire playing population which is bullshit. Plz revert both of these to sever side mods as they should be.
After having played for the first time after the patch, I can say that this is absolutely horrible. With all graphical effects turned to the minimum, there is nothing "atmospheric" about the lighting
Game confirmed to look bad at lowest settings, call the press.
Just make it something toggleable via config or static boolean, so the ENSL mod can just "new_atmospheric_lighting=false" it.
Or fix the flawed implementation both Crazy and I have pointed out. Here are some ideas:
1. Have the structure dim light only near it within x meters (maybe hard)
2. Have cysts dim the whole room only if they have 100% maturity (easy)
3. Cysts don't affect room lighting, only bigger alien structures do
The other oddity is shades with this feature. If a shade hies all the alien structures in a room, the room has no lighting affect it. But in combat, if a stray bullet hits the shade while fighting aliens, it reveals the alien structures, telling the client to make the room dark. So mid combat, you have this DRASTIC change to room lighting. Is this intended? Is it intended for the room NOT to be dark when there's a shade and aliens have to fight and defend. Now the Shade is working AGAINST them because it's not making the room dark anymore.
What happens if ink is used?
This change wasn't thought out enough to be a feature as it's implemented. I can go on all day about it. I am a software engineer who makes apps for google and amazon for a living. I've designed UI's, tested them, done massive user testing sessions with hundreds of people. When you have a product with an established userbase, if you make a drastic change, you need to be very careful with how you introduce and test it.
This kind of change would have gotten me fired. I am not saying you should be. I am just saying the ridiculous resistance to the complaints in this thread cannot be justified. This change was not ready, and needs to be toggleable or reversed. And in the future, UWE and PDT need to be more careful.
Hint: Make a big change that affects comp play like this? Make it toggleable. Otherwise you get a thread like this one.
It effects everyone with eyes. Not just comp players. No one likes being punished with poor visibility in MP. At least with flashbangs or cyst ruptures you can look away.
It's a single player immersion mechanic. With these power node light changes. Doesn't belong.
Yea this is like trying to get this game closer to an alien movie. I understand why that would sound appealing. The problem is, the best part about ns1 and ns2 has always been gameplay the how fast the game is in fights. Now you are changing a huge part of the fights. So even changes to a lifeform or upgrade seems less severe than this. When you affect the way people can see in an extremely fast fps game, you change everything. I still think you guys forgot to test well with low options on. Locklear makes a good point though, even though it is more immersive, does this belong? Doesn't this take away from the best part of NS? The best part of NS to me is executing well in those fights, and now you are making our monitors dark. Doesn't feel right.
It seems clear that the competitive players who have a better understanding of the game know this is unfair. Only the rookies think this is "cool." Making a game look cool does not retain players. You need to listen to experienced players who understand the mechanics of the game, they are the only ones who understand balance. Also, I have my P_logall for my FPS. Also please note how many posts and views are in this thread. It is clearly a conversational change.
After having played for the first time after the patch, I can say that this is absolutely horrible. With all graphical effects turned to the minimum, there is nothing "atmospheric" about the lighting
Game confirmed to look bad at lowest settings, call the press.
What is the gain then? If, for players with minimal settings, the game both 1) looks bad and 2) plays bad, then why not give those players the option to at least get rid of problem 2? There is nothing to gain for these players from any kind of "atmospheric" improvements. The only reason anyone can use to justify not being able to turn this junk off is that they want to deliberately gimp the gaming experience of players who do not care about immersion. In the same way you could justify a game mechanic that just randomly shuts down your screen.
The effect on gameplay is not huge. A good marine will still be a good marine even in a darkened room, even if he might miss a couple of shots every now and then due to not being able to see what he's shooting at as well as before. The main issue is the experience. This change makes the game experience very frustrating for players who play to compete. Giving these players the choice of making the game more comfortable would not make them any more overpowered than they already were. And the players who want to keep the setting on wouldn't care anyway, since they don't play for the competition but the immersion, right?
Comments
I believe from the data we've tracked so far, the majority of the player-base either supports this, or didn't notice. (The is not the final word, and we will continue trying to collect feedback from a broader sample of the playerbase. This thread / discussion on the forum also contributes to that.)
It's pretty, but it SUCKS.
The issue is less about the addition of Atmospheric Territories and more about it can't be disabled. Usually all these frustrating features got fixed by mods (Mostly by Mendasp and Dragon) but since they are not on good term with you guys anymore that is not going to happen. This time around this option needs to be made officially.
Neutral = No presence from either team
Marine Occupied = Powernode built
Alien Occupied = At least one cyst
Marines don't even have to spend Tres to occupy a room.
Keep in mind I am not saying what should or should not happen... just what IS happening.
Case in point: I like @aeroripper 's idea.
They have to spend time though, it's not automatically 'free' because it doesn't require tres. Building a powernode, or repairing a node slows down marine map control and that's a massive factor.
A cyst doesn't claim a room, it can be replaced in an instant at a minimal cost. Multiple cysts should be the very minimum required to claim a room, it should be a progressive change, not an instantaneous one, this game is asymmetric remember, why should aliens gain and lose control instantly just because marines do it.
A power node takes time, it clearly defines a room control and players do not complete them until marines are ready to assume control of the room with, res, gates or other structures.
As such aliens shouldn't get to claim a room for a cyst, that's not important. Multiple cysts that actually have an impact on res, a harvester, crag these things are what show aliens are controlling rooms.
For example.
This is how it works, 1-2 cysts through south tunnel and the entire section in red becomes dark, that is flat out idiotic. 90% of that area is not alien territory at all, infact, hub -> logi is a common marine pressure route (with this alien spawn)and now you have to enter a considerably darker area to push, giving skulks a substantially easier time ambushing in an area with multiple ambush locations.
The fact is these changes are clearly not thought through in the impact they have on gameplay, the amount of complaints on this forum show that. It's not that the change itself is completely stupid, just the implementation and execution has been pathetic.
Either you split these areas up into smaller areas and make the alien progression through it much more in-line with actual cysting and expansion or you make it so aliens have to really invest in an area before they claim it.
Then the whole room brightness has much less impact for people playing high light settings, low settings end up with much less visible rooms due to the lack of contrasting lights. People run that because it's a big FPS impact, now it's a pain for many, the default brightness is just too low now in those situations.
I think we can all agree that room ownership should instead be decided by tres spent on it.
To avoid the "1 cyst" problem, I suggest that a minimum of 5 tres should be spent in a room to claim it (1 RT).
(This puts gorge tunnels/forts into an interesting position, but considering how they are "outposts" and likely to be reinforced by tres structures, you can likely get away with not having them affect lighting at all. Otherwise, throw in some exception for gorge structures.)
Pretty much this.
The new lighting looks cool like everyone seems to agree, but it does seriously affect game flow and balance imo. If I'm forward behind enemy lines and die to a a couple skulks due to darker lighting that I otherwise might have killed under normal lighting, that's a serious game changer because you've lost your forward pressure. Revert to normal lighting if you can.
BTW, are we talking one "mature" cyst makes it alien territory?
Last night alone I heard at least 3 ppl say they hated the change (not just disliked). I heard nobody say they like it, and I only played a few rounds last night. It's not a comfy blanket if you're aching to get out from under it.
Similarly, I've played several games and the feedback I've heard has been mostly positive, with a few conceding that it could use some tweaking. Most like a blanket that's still got it's store-tag on it, ya know cause it's new and all.
I'm guessing, if it would check more location entities, it would slap the FPS down more? But yeah that is kinda ridiculous, what happens in Lava Falls? Well still would have the molten metal lights I guess...
Dynamic lighting is not something anyone cares about in a team based shooter or whatever genre and it's a waste of time to continue working with it. It's something that shines in single player immersion and that's IT.
Seeing precious time wasted on this just blows my mind. If you wanted to make a positive lighting change, just remove the aids red lights.
Plz plz pllllzzz
Though I see no reason to get rid of new lighting system if the power/infestation system is here to stay.
Game confirmed to look bad at lowest settings, call the press.
Or fix the flawed implementation both Crazy and I have pointed out. Here are some ideas:
1. Have the structure dim light only near it within x meters (maybe hard)
2. Have cysts dim the whole room only if they have 100% maturity (easy)
3. Cysts don't affect room lighting, only bigger alien structures do
The other oddity is shades with this feature. If a shade hies all the alien structures in a room, the room has no lighting affect it. But in combat, if a stray bullet hits the shade while fighting aliens, it reveals the alien structures, telling the client to make the room dark. So mid combat, you have this DRASTIC change to room lighting. Is this intended? Is it intended for the room NOT to be dark when there's a shade and aliens have to fight and defend. Now the Shade is working AGAINST them because it's not making the room dark anymore.
What happens if ink is used?
This change wasn't thought out enough to be a feature as it's implemented. I can go on all day about it. I am a software engineer who makes apps for google and amazon for a living. I've designed UI's, tested them, done massive user testing sessions with hundreds of people. When you have a product with an established userbase, if you make a drastic change, you need to be very careful with how you introduce and test it.
This kind of change would have gotten me fired. I am not saying you should be. I am just saying the ridiculous resistance to the complaints in this thread cannot be justified. This change was not ready, and needs to be toggleable or reversed. And in the future, UWE and PDT need to be more careful.
Hint: Make a big change that affects comp play like this? Make it toggleable. Otherwise you get a thread like this one.
It's a single player immersion mechanic. With these power node light changes. Doesn't belong.
What is the gain then? If, for players with minimal settings, the game both 1) looks bad and 2) plays bad, then why not give those players the option to at least get rid of problem 2? There is nothing to gain for these players from any kind of "atmospheric" improvements. The only reason anyone can use to justify not being able to turn this junk off is that they want to deliberately gimp the gaming experience of players who do not care about immersion. In the same way you could justify a game mechanic that just randomly shuts down your screen.
The effect on gameplay is not huge. A good marine will still be a good marine even in a darkened room, even if he might miss a couple of shots every now and then due to not being able to see what he's shooting at as well as before. The main issue is the experience. This change makes the game experience very frustrating for players who play to compete. Giving these players the choice of making the game more comfortable would not make them any more overpowered than they already were. And the players who want to keep the setting on wouldn't care anyway, since they don't play for the competition but the immersion, right?
The game design should not be about what looks "cool" in a MP shooter. That cool effect doesn't last long. Gameplay does.