Look, I'd love to. That was pretty much the entire point of my post. I was pointing out how the "us vs them" gets generated in the first place... was this really not clear?
If you can't see how sharp criticism of something that does not pertain to you - yet others still enjoy - creates a divide by essentially directing where development goes (atmos is now reverted) and how this generates resentment between two camps that have different desires... then the cycle is never going to be broken.
"Please just disable it for competitive play" was a very reasonable request. "OMG Immersion, just add scary music next for the casuals" is just inciting and continues the cycle.
Start from page 1 of this thread and begin taking a tally. It's not something that's being made up, on page one alone I count 12 positive posts from pub players and 1 negative, but 4/4 negative posts coming from competitive players, with some playing the #immersion mocking card. And the thread only gets worse from there in that regard.
Voice your feedback and criticism, of course... but mocking those that enjoy said changes is what generates this divide and if you don't recognize it amongst yourselves and cease it, then this will never end.
I think you should calm down on your post Ironhorse. You keep creating a very negative atmosphere with us vs them mentality that really does not help solve this situation.
I agree the mocking posts aren't necessary, but there's also other people bringing up very good complaints other than it's not good for competitive play. It would be nice if this doesn't continue to be a 2 camp fight with each other over updates. Hopefully there is some changes in that regard. In the meantime, perhaps it was correct to revert the change until updates are made to the mod and a toggle is introduced. At the very least, it has to work well for people with low options to be something to implement to all pub servers. Criticism isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as it's constructive.
I think you should calm down on your post Ironhorse. You keep creating a very negative atmosphere with us vs them mentality that really does not help solve this situation.
If pointing out how it happens causes more in the interim, I am fine with that if it even so much has a remote chance of reducing it in the future.
I am 100% certain that those players who responded negatively to would have done so regardless of whether or not they played competitively. I'm also certain that you're unaware of who on that first page actually plays competitively as there are a few who responded positively to the lighting changes.
It's almost as if people's reactions to the changes are independent of whether they're "comp" or "pub" players.
I am 100% certain that those players who responded negatively to would have done so regardless of whether or not they played competitively.
It doesn't really matter when it comes to dislike of a change, because when you have competitive or even prior competitive players - players that are known in the community - openly mocking what others enjoy, that's what creates a perception. I agree I should have stuck with the issue of mocking, over whether a user "liked" it or not though.
But if I am totally wrong and off base, please prove it by linking me to the posts where pub players are mocking those who enjoy it. I'll gladly eat my words.
But if I am totally wrong and off base, please prove it by linking me to the posts where pub players are mocking those who enjoy it. I'll gladly eat my words.
I agree I should have stuck with the issue of mocking, over whether a user "liked" it or not though.
The entire point of my post that you originally replied to has to do with mocking things that other people enjoy and the perception this causes when that user is associated with a specific portion of the community.
I am not interested in any other topic, so if that's all we have left to discuss then I have nothing more to add.
I agree I should have stuck with the issue of mocking, over whether a user "liked" it or not though.
The entire point of my post that you originally replied to has to do with mocking things that other people enjoy and the perception this causes when that user is associated with a specific portion of the community.
I am not interested in any other topic, so if that's all we have left to discuss then I have nothing more to add.
Yes, you apparently missed the part where several competitive players had some very nice things to say about Atmospheric Territories. I, myself, love the fact that it means no more desaturated red rooms. I just hate the way it was initially implemented.
Yes, you apparently missed the part where several competitive players had some very nice things to say about Atmospheric Territories.
Was not my point whatsoever? I definitely saw competitive players saying nice things, to include mendasp and even frozen (after initially hating it).
The issue is mocking.
Even if a few bad apples mock what others enjoy it creates a perception of an entire group if they happen belong to one. I realize that's unfortunate but it's human nature to associate. So if everyone ceases mocking then it can only help this so called divide... right? That's my only point, golden.
Edit: @Wyzcrak It's kind of hard to justify moderating it considering they are not mocking an individual directly, but instead a feature and often implying a specific group of players (casual players, typically). And I do want their voice heard here.. just wish it could be done in a more mature way.
Start from page 1 of this thread and begin taking a tally. It's not something that's being made up, on page one alone I count 12 positive posts from pub players and 1 negative, but 4/4 negative posts coming from competitive players, with some playing the #immersion mocking card.
You completely disregard all the positive posts from competitive players in your tally, implying that all competitive players hate the lighting changes. It's pretty hard to understand why you're confused about people 'misinterpreting' your posts. That's the last I'll say about this subject.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
You moderate the mocking, direct or indirect, and the rest of the childish nonsense. If what they have to say is so important, they (or someone else) will figure out how to share it respectfully. These are smart people. They're just frustrated and lack discipline in hot moments. You're not censoring anyone by effectively maintaining a disciplined and respectful behavioral bar. Meanwhile, you're doing a grand service to the title and the competitive community.
^I think we have seen it from both sides. The lighting thing isn't as much of a comp/casual debate as it's a veteran player concern for a lot of people. Not everyone, but enough have voiced their concern. The good news is, updates are going to be made. Things are changing, and we can get closer to something that works for more people.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
For the third time - I should not have tallied up likes or dislikes of this feature because it detracts from my point - that was my mistake and i fully admit it.
My point still stands regarding mocking, and I hope it hits home for some.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I hope this doesn't make the team shy about making big changes to the game. We need more experiments like this, not fewer, and we need a community that doesn't collectively lose their minds when they do.
I'd really like to see changes to the meta on the magnitude of 250 again sometime. (My hunch is that if you don't change the movement mechanics, people will be much more receptive to changes to the rhythm of the game.)
^ Moultano- Balance changes would be nice to see. If rapid updates are being made, this is a good time to do balance changes. If something doesn't work, you make a tweak or you reverse it right away. I also would like to see bug fixes, and UWE focus on making the game fun to play by changing the meta.
I personally like that your example has the area between Shipping and Observation dark.. it clearly denotes alien presence ahead... which is the entire point behind this change!
Can you guys add dramatic and frightening single player music when I enter one of these areas too? And maybe add "heavy breathing sounds" from my marine because he is frightened? And maybe make my gun shoot not as accurately since my hands are shaking because "ALIENS AHEAD!"
@Ironhorse Just to be clear, my mocking of the #immersion above comes not from the pub or competitive community, and it is especially not directed at players who enjoy the change, who you wrongfully assume are a lot of new players we want to retain. My criticism is specifically directed at the development priorities of NS2 and whoever pays for stuff like this to be worked on in the first place. I have long been critical of where NS2 devs spend their resources. I think NS2 is already unique enough with the RTS/FPS aspect that we need to let the gameplay speak for itself and always be improving on that. (And yes, I include matchmaking and skill separation an integral part of gameplay, in addition to standard game mechanics, gun play, time to kill, etc).
Case in point, I have played fast-paced FPS shooters all my life and I fucking hate massive amounts of immersion in them. So do the core group of video game friends I play with. Whenever my friends and I try out a new game, we all immediately turn off motion blur, bloom effects, weapon bobbing, etc as fast as possible. There are lots and lots of gamers like this. We want good gameplay. That is what is fun and that is what keeps us playing. All of my friends could be very loyal NS2 players if player retention features would have been focused toward them in the early stages. So when an unrequested immersive feature with poor implementation gets thrust in the game, it's a worrying trend. So I mocked it. But even worse, this whole argument somehow got framed as a competitive vs casual thing so everyone focuses on that and misses the point completely....
my mocking of the #immersion above comes not from the pub or competitive community, and it is especially not directed at players who enjoy the change
How can it be taken any other way?
What you quoted in your post describes someone's version of an enjoyable game, maybe not yours and maybe not even mine, but there are plenty of comments that have expressed their approval of this feature on these forums and you're not just mocking the feature.. you're mocking the entire concept of atmospheric or immersive features. Something many enjoy.
It's one thing to say exactly what you said in your last post, that you hate these types of features and so do many core players. It's another thing to ridicule the concept of enjoying them, as you did in your last post.
I could come up with some equivalent example mocking the seriousness behind caring about how well a player or team performs in a video game... but I can't even bring myself to do it without immediately realizing the portion of our community that I'd be mocking in doing so, and would feel pretty bad about it.
I appreciate the time you took to respond, and your stated intentions, but I hope you can recognize how it might be interpreted by others nonetheless.
Sorry Atmospheric Territories is not a liked feature on our Australian servers, the same goes for the ones in china and Japan, sure some people are impartial towards it but only because it's a drastic change, it's a force change and no one likes forced change.
funny how vehemently people oppose this, i played on a server that had lights back to red and i hated it, A.T mod makes the lighting 100X better imo, I can't believe people have complained this much about it, I could see aliens better without the red lighting, but i guess thats just me.
just had to throw my 2cents in there because the disagreement on this change is very unfair. and is probly the best official change i've seen since 2012 (maybe other than metabolize replacing vortex :P )
The lighting is actually much better than the red version, I dont think most people would disagree with that. It sounds like the issue really stems from low lights, and further the NSL lights setting being overly darkened because there are much fewer lights.
I thought, and still think the atmospherics were amazing. After the complaining I changed my settings to see how bad it could really be in normal play. I turned my gamma from 2(default), to 1.7(the lowest). I turned on shadows. I turned on low lights. My gpu gamma remained untouched. I use lightboost on my monitor which makes it somewhat darker. Still though, I did not have anymore issues than I normally did with tracking. I am also a marine who has about ~20% accuracy. I still have yet to go back to my old graphic settings.
The red lighting made it so I lost skulks. The new atmospheric lighting was an incredible improvement.
I thought, and still think the atmospherics were amazing. After the complaining I changed my settings to see how bad it could really be in normal play. I turned my gamma from 2(default), to 1.7(the lowest). I turned on shadows. I turned on low lights. My gpu gamma remained untouched. I use lightboost on my monitor which makes it somewhat darker. Still though, I did not have anymore issues than I normally did with tracking. I am also a marine who has about ~20% accuracy. I still have yet to go back to my old graphic settings.
The red lighting made it so I lost skulks. The new atmospheric lighting was an incredible improvement.
Adding lights to cysts and structures could be done independently. Yellow structure lights + red low power lighting would look really good I think. I see no reason not to add the structure lights back in without the other changes. This seems like it would please everyone and has no downside whatsoever.
Comments
I think you should calm down on your post Ironhorse. You keep creating a very negative atmosphere with us vs them mentality that really does not help solve this situation.
It's almost as if people's reactions to the changes are independent of whether they're "comp" or "pub" players.
Seriously guys? Take a breather. McGlaspie is rethinking it.
But if I am totally wrong and off base, please prove it by linking me to the posts where pub players are mocking those who enjoy it. I'll gladly eat my words.
Did I say this? No. Read my post again.
I am not interested in any other topic, so if that's all we have left to discuss then I have nothing more to add.
Yes, you apparently missed the part where several competitive players had some very nice things to say about Atmospheric Territories. I, myself, love the fact that it means no more desaturated red rooms. I just hate the way it was initially implemented.
The issue is mocking.
Even if a few bad apples mock what others enjoy it creates a perception of an entire group if they happen belong to one. I realize that's unfortunate but it's human nature to associate.
So if everyone ceases mocking then it can only help this so called divide... right? That's my only point, golden.
Edit: @Wyzcrak It's kind of hard to justify moderating it considering they are not mocking an individual directly, but instead a feature and often implying a specific group of players (casual players, typically). And I do want their voice heard here.. just wish it could be done in a more mature way.
You completely disregard all the positive posts from competitive players in your tally, implying that all competitive players hate the lighting changes. It's pretty hard to understand why you're confused about people 'misinterpreting' your posts. That's the last I'll say about this subject.
My point still stands regarding mocking, and I hope it hits home for some.
I'd really like to see changes to the meta on the magnitude of 250 again sometime. (My hunch is that if you don't change the movement mechanics, people will be much more receptive to changes to the rhythm of the game.)
In fact this thread should be renamed cigarettes cuz it's giving me cancer...
@Ironhorse Just to be clear, my mocking of the #immersion above comes not from the pub or competitive community, and it is especially not directed at players who enjoy the change, who you wrongfully assume are a lot of new players we want to retain. My criticism is specifically directed at the development priorities of NS2 and whoever pays for stuff like this to be worked on in the first place. I have long been critical of where NS2 devs spend their resources. I think NS2 is already unique enough with the RTS/FPS aspect that we need to let the gameplay speak for itself and always be improving on that. (And yes, I include matchmaking and skill separation an integral part of gameplay, in addition to standard game mechanics, gun play, time to kill, etc).
Case in point, I have played fast-paced FPS shooters all my life and I fucking hate massive amounts of immersion in them. So do the core group of video game friends I play with. Whenever my friends and I try out a new game, we all immediately turn off motion blur, bloom effects, weapon bobbing, etc as fast as possible. There are lots and lots of gamers like this. We want good gameplay. That is what is fun and that is what keeps us playing. All of my friends could be very loyal NS2 players if player retention features would have been focused toward them in the early stages. So when an unrequested immersive feature with poor implementation gets thrust in the game, it's a worrying trend. So I mocked it. But even worse, this whole argument somehow got framed as a competitive vs casual thing so everyone focuses on that and misses the point completely....
What you quoted in your post describes someone's version of an enjoyable game, maybe not yours and maybe not even mine, but there are plenty of comments that have expressed their approval of this feature on these forums and you're not just mocking the feature.. you're mocking the entire concept of atmospheric or immersive features. Something many enjoy.
It's one thing to say exactly what you said in your last post, that you hate these types of features and so do many core players. It's another thing to ridicule the concept of enjoying them, as you did in your last post.
I could come up with some equivalent example mocking the seriousness behind caring about how well a player or team performs in a video game... but I can't even bring myself to do it without immediately realizing the portion of our community that I'd be mocking in doing so, and would feel pretty bad about it.
I appreciate the time you took to respond, and your stated intentions, but I hope you can recognize how it might be interpreted by others nonetheless.
Have it as a feature but off by default.
just had to throw my 2cents in there because the disagreement on this change is very unfair. and is probly the best official change i've seen since 2012 (maybe other than metabolize replacing vortex :P )
The red lighting made it so I lost skulks. The new atmospheric lighting was an incredible improvement.
Adding lights to cysts and structures could be done independently. Yellow structure lights + red low power lighting would look really good I think. I see no reason not to add the structure lights back in without the other changes. This seems like it would please everyone and has no downside whatsoever.