Atmospheric Territories Mod (Title name change due to confusion and dislikes)...

WebtranceWebtrance US Join Date: 2013-11-08 Member: 189165Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2016 in NS2 General Discussion
Stop the patches everyday, revert to a stable build with normal lighting, and stop messing with the game. Please. Tutorials are okay, menus okay, skins, and performance fixes okay. But please stop messing with core gameplay.
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Comments

  • MaxAmusMaxAmus UK Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24779Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    How is the patches and changes killing the game?

    Please explain in CLEAR DETAILS AND EXAMPLES of how?

    All i see is more and more players coming back,
    More and more playing the game?

    I dont see that in killing the game,

    Off course the last few patches have created some performace issues, and am sure they already know, if not will know very shortly, and Look into fixing.

    Saying that these patches is killing NS2. is wrong.
  • Cr4zyb4st4rdCr4zyb4st4rd United Kingdom Join Date: 2012-08-09 Member: 155200Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2016
    All you have to do is read the forum to see why. No players are coming back and no reasonable amount of rookies are being retained due to focusing on all the wrong things anyway.

    The only reason player count grew is due to sales not because of patches.
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Webtrance wrote: »
    revert to a stable build with normal lighting

    Only thing i'll agree with is that atmospheric lighting can piss off.
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I agree that that the recent changes to the gameplay have been pretty bad. The game really needs bit of an overhaul to make it feel fresh again.

    The truth is UWE simply does not have the confidence and the skills/knowlage to make the right changes to gameplay. There are however talented individuals that can do it within the community and are willing to put in the work. You really should start working with these amazing people instead of pushing them away - and I'm not only talking about gameplay changes here.

    There is a person in the CDT that could make some real quality changes if she was given charge of gameplay. That person is Rantology.

    Rantology worked on gameplay and balance changes with me and Dragon almost from the beginning of ns2. We did lot of work with Andy on the last big gamelpay overhaul and created compmod together. In the end most of the changes that were made in compmod were put in the vanilla game. If she was given full freedom to make changes I have full confidence she would make huge improvements to NS2 gameplay that would make the game more fun for both new players and veterans.

  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members
    Benson wrote: »
    P.S. is it bad that this is what went through my head when i saw this thread?

    LOL. Of all the countless things on the internet this could have been, I somehow just knew it was going to be that clip.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    Grissi wrote: »
    I agree that that the recent changes to the gameplay have been pretty bad. The game really needs bit of an overhaul to make it feel fresh again.

    The truth is UWE simply does not have the confidence and the skills/knowlage to make the right changes to gameplay. There are however talented individuals that can do it within the community and are willing to put in the work. You really should start working with these amazing people instead of pushing them away - and I'm not only talking about gameplay changes here.

    There is a person in the CDT that could make some real quality changes if she was given charge of gameplay. That person is Rantology.

    Rantology worked on gameplay and balance changes with me and Dragon almost from the beginning of ns2. We did lot of work with Andy on the last big gamelpay overhaul and created compmod together. In the end most of the changes that were made in compmod were put in the vanilla game. If she was given full freedom to make changes I have full confidence she would make huge improvements to NS2 gameplay that would make the game more fun for both new players and veterans.
    I think one of the major problems with NS2 has always been the lack of coherent vision. There are a lot of ambitious ideas being implemented and tried, but for example it feels like there has never been a decision on how much NS2 is atmospheric shooter and how much it is a team and skill based RTS/FPS shooter. Both can be done in the same game to some extend, but without carefully defined rules and priorities you end up with conflicts like the recent lighting change. Similar kind of lack of coherency and decisive priorities affects a lot of elements in NS2 and it both consumes valuable development time and waters down the potential of various gameplay aspects within the game. The lack of coherency also makes the game less accessible since there doesn't always seem to be any clear way to approach and enjoy the core game.

    I don't personally know Rantology or her qualifications, but I feel NS2 could use a strong core of a designer or few designers that have a defined idea of how NS2 reaches whatever potential there's left to unlock. Some people will definitely disagree with the direction and decisions, but I still feel the outcome is better than the present confused mix of ambitions.
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Bacillus wrote: »
    I think one of the major problems with NS2 has always been the lack of coherent vision. There are a lot of ambitious ideas being implemented and tried, but for example it feels like there has never been a decision on how much NS2 is atmospheric shooter and how much it is a team and skill based RTS/FPS shooter. Both can be done in the same game to some extend, but without carefully defined rules and priorities you end up with conflicts like the recent lighting change. Similar kind of lack of coherency and decisive priorities affects a lot of elements in NS2 and it both consumes valuable development time and waters down the potential of various gameplay aspects within the game. The lack of coherency also makes the game less accessible since there doesn't always seem to be any clear way to approach and enjoy the core game.

    I don't personally know Rantology or her qualifications, but I feel NS2 could use a strong core of a designer or few designers that have a defined idea of how NS2 reaches whatever potential there's left to unlock. Some people will definitely disagree with the direction and decisions, but I still feel the outcome is better than the present confused mix of ambitions.

    Well written Bacillus, I could not have agreed more

    The game needs someone capable in charge that is well connected with the community and has experience playing/working with the game. That person needs to be confident in making his/her vision a reality and have the ability to push it through. Even if major changes are made players will be quick to realise if that person is capable or not after trying them out. It's just a question of picking the right person for the job.


    I should probably mention that I have not spoken to Rantology if she is interested to take the responsibility or not. I just know from my experience she has the skill set to do it. I kinda put her in the spotlight without asking. Even though she would not take up the torch there are few other in the community that can make this happen.
  • CRaZyCAT_RusCRaZyCAT_Rus Russia Join Date: 2013-10-31 Member: 188899Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I can't agree with topic starter completely but I can say before CDT born I almost never had crashes, lags and bugs and other perfomance issues.
    After the first patch by CDT and in process of time with every build more and more problems appears. I already started to get used to some of them and I'm not sure if someone going to fix that. I don't know.

    Before the patches I never had constant redplugs, textures which can't load, fatal errors and more and more.
    But in spite of this game became better (even for me) and I can't deny that. At least some changes let game to stay afloat because stagnation always equals death agony.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    I can't agree with topic starter completely but I can say before CDT born I almost never had crashes, lags and bugs and other perfomance issues.
    After the first patch by CDT and in process of time with every build more and more problems appears. I already started to get used to some of them and I'm not sure if someone going to fix that. I don't know.

    Before the patches I never had constant redplugs, textures which can't load, fatal errors and more and more.
    But in spite of this game became better (even for me) and I can't deny that. At least some changes let game to stay afloat because stagnation always equals death agony.

    Odd it's the exact opposite for me..

    Before the CDT came along I had crashing issues, red plug issues, and hitreg felt downright awful at times...

    The first patch the CDT put out solved my crashing issue and got rid of like 80% of the red plugs.. Hitreg also got waaay better (a lot less dying after rounding a corner bs)

    Ironically the very first patch the new PDT put out brought my crashing issue back.. The second one screwed up my server browser, now I'm back to getting red plugs and dying around corners on a regular basis..

    It's like they undid everything the CDT accomplished then took it a step further and made things worse. (the server browser being FUBAR is the worst of it)


    I've also noticed less available servers during the day. There used to always be at least 3-4 populated NA servers in the mornings. Now I'm lucky if there's one.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    The first patch the CDT put out solved my crashing issue and got rid of like 80% of the red plugs.. Hitreg also got waaay better (a lot less dying after rounding a corner bs)

    Ironically the very first patch the new PDT put out brought my crashing issue back.. The second one screwed up my server browser, now I'm back to getting red plugs and dying around corners on a regular basis..

    It's OK Mofo. Implementing personal side projects into the game seems to be more important than utilizing our 20 page thread full of ideas for player retention... because ya know,,, new lighting is going to save NS2.
  • CalegoCalego Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester
    @Nordic or Anyone who knows the recent stats.
    wikipedian_protester.png

    This Game Has Been Dying Since It Came Out.

    While I question the decisions made recently by UWE regarding the PDT and rapid strategy, I will not deny that it is good to see them working on things again and actively implementing things that community members think up. Shit takes time though. And unfortunately for them, we're going to go for their throat no matter what they do.

    If they make a hug(h)e patch that completely changes everything, people (me) will probably get super butthurt and question whether they want to keep playing the game. If they don't make changes fast enough, people will rant on about how they're not listening to us. If they make no changes....nothing will change. If they make any changes...people will rant about how they're manipulating the core gameplay on a whim.

    For Clog's Sake People. Give the PDT the time and feedback they need, then watch the stats like they are and figure out where to go from there.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    joshhh wrote: »
    Implementing personal side projects into the game seems to be more important than utilizing our 20 page thread full of ideas for player retention... because ya know,,, new lighting is going to save NS2.

    The only side project I see is that wasn't in the player retention thread is the "Project Sticky Shoe" thing. https://trello.com/c/oLJguvTE/174-project-sticky-shoe
    These items have no use other than simple steam inventory items with descriptions.
    What's the point of cluttering up someone's inventory?

    Other than that, the lighting should have been like this since the beginning.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    joshhh wrote: »
    Implementing personal side projects into the game seems to be more important than utilizing our 20 page thread full of ideas for player retention... because ya know,,, new lighting is going to save NS2.

    Other than that, the lighting should have been like this since the beginning.

    It was one of the initial plans, alongside the Fade actually having a minor flickering/sparking effect on lights as it would blink past. And... Dynami... Heheheh You know what I was gonna say :tongue:
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    joshhh wrote: »
    Implementing personal side projects into the game seems to be more important than utilizing our 20 page thread full of ideas for player retention... because ya know,,, new lighting is going to save NS2.

    Other than that, the lighting should have been like this since the beginning.

    It was one of the initial plans, alongside the Fade actually having a minor flickering/sparking effect on lights as it would blink past. And... Dynami... Heheheh You know what I was gonna say :tongue:

    Don't forget the Onos was originally intended to shake props and move lights around too, too bad prop physics never happened.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    Comp players already turn off all sorts of particles, i don't see why it would be any different in that case. So this is really not a reason to introduce additional options. I understand that pub and comp players have different requirements, but ns2 vanilla never included the huge amounts of options the comp players need. They are, rightfully so, handled by mods.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    joshhh wrote: »
    Implementing personal side projects into the game seems to be more important than utilizing our 20 page thread full of ideas for player retention... because ya know,,, new lighting is going to save NS2.

    Other than that, the lighting should have been like this since the beginning.

    It was one of the initial plans, alongside the Fade actually having a minor flickering/sparking effect on lights as it would blink past. And... Dynami... Heheheh You know what I was gonna say :tongue:

    Don't forget the Onos was originally intended to shake props and move lights around too, too bad prop physics never happened.

    Hehe yes indeed! I also reference that in me Walls of Lame video :trollface:


    Well at least the Onos shakes and makes sand come... from... space station... ceilings... WUT!
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members
    edited March 2016
    While I don't think that anyone is "killing NS2" to a new or surprising degree as a result of this update, I have to voice my distaste for the recent lighting change. I'll preface my grievances with the acknowledgment that I'm happy to see NS2 being worked on, and I am not against changes which increase immersion as a rule. But my monitor has a blur reduction feature which inherently darkens the game to begin with, and I know I'm not the only one with similar gear. There are technical workarounds for the gamma drop that are firmware version-dependent, but I honestly shouldn't have to choose between enabling a gaming monitor feature and playable lighting levels. I also use low quality lights, which are fairly dark to begin with (even with maximum gamma). Note: I understand that the new lighting isn't unplayably dark for everyone. I'm just saying that it is for me, and I doubt I'm alone.

    If this is going to be baked-in to the game for some time to come, I think the fairest options would be to:
    • Take greater advantage of colored lighting options (or other things like behavioral changes in animated environmental props) rather than straight lighting intensity decreases in order to achieved desired atmospheric effects.
    • Reduce the degree of the lighting change universally.
    • Create a server-side option to enable or disable the lighting mode.
    My preferred response would be a simple user setting, but I understand the arguments against it. That said, given how many other things we can turn off (rich infestation, ambient occlusion, atmospheric lighting, NS2+ options, etc.) it seems that we already have a strong precedent of enabling users to selectively adjust their visual experience of the game at the expense of strict consistency, and pretending otherwise so as to ensure that this particular change remains universal is moderately disingenuous, especially if there's an associated performance hit for some users.
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
    Asraniel wrote: »
    Comp players already turn off all sorts of particles, i don't see why it would be any different in that case. So this is really not a reason to introduce additional options. I understand that pub and comp players have different requirements, but ns2 vanilla never included the huge amounts of options the comp players need. They are, rightfully so, handled by mods.

    While I could easily make the feature work better in a competitive environment (and a pub one, I dare say) and even offer a complete rollback toggle through NS2+, I already stated I stopped work on NS2+ (and the reasons are out there and plenty of people have read them, so there's no need to repeat that), similarly, dragon won't roll back any of this either.

    So for the first time in a very long time, mods won't come to the rescue here, so that shouldn't even be a justification for a feature not being suitable for everyone. So that argument is not valid anymore (should have never been an argument, either you design something right, or you don't).
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Taking what Mendasp said a step further, I am actively having to convince myself not to remove my mods from workshop permanently. Given how the extensions are being pushed down with no option to turn them off or disable them, keeping the one other mod working I care about (classic) is proving way more difficult than it should be. Given the previous responses regarding that, its clear that 0 fucks are given by UWE, so its REALLY hard to convince myself to leave anything up that helps their product.
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members
    PSA: Ninja sink is on guys.

    Seriously, if you don't like the thread, lock it. Or sink it and announce it. These ninja sinks are poor form and reflect very poorly on yourselves.
  • WyzcrakWyzcrak Pot Pie Aficionado Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    I imagine all of you in a room having this argument in person. That is a fantastic image. You're all amazing.
  • WebtranceWebtrance US Join Date: 2013-11-08 Member: 189165Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Scatter wrote: »
    I am in the complete opposite camp to the OP. I want a complete mix-up of the game play like build 250...

    Fine, go back to build 249!

    The point of the post was that you (developers) don't have to change for the sake of change. Again, you're changing the core game enough that comp play requires a mod to fix it. If you don't fix the lighting for comp play and make it a part of the core gameplay that cannot be toggled, you will loose players.
    MaxAmus wrote: »
    ...Saying that these patches is killing NS2 is wrong.
    No it's not wrong. If game changes cause me to not play the game, then it is in fact, killing NS2. I am a game thermometer of sorts.

    As far as lighting goes, the game should be based on tracking/aim skill, ambush tactics, dodging, positioning, and teamwork...which it is for the competitive scene and somewhat for seasoned pub players. Making lighting changes adds a new element. It's called darkness. Darkness now gives aliens a new tactic. That tactic is called "Sweetie Dark." Meaning "I'm gonna kill you because you can't see me as well as you once did and I made you miss your shots and not because I'm good, but because the lighting sucks in this room."

    I suppose we'll just have to go back to using Gamma Panel again. http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/gamma_panel.html for old eyes. But seriously, remove the gamma slider option in NS2 if you're going to mess with the lighting and force people to play that way. I mean, why have a gamma option in the first place?



  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    xDragon wrote: »
    Given how the extensions are being pushed down with no option to turn them off or disable them
    How is this materially different from them just changing the game code conventionally?
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2016
    Because the mod is force loaded, even when it has no reference to the subject mode. Say you made a mode which no longer had powernodes, cysts, tunnels or anything vanilla NS2. The extension ALWAYS loads, and will attempt to hook into powernode code (which no longer exists). This means you have to explicitly check for their files, and block them from loading (at best). And EVERY time they update an extension, you need to change the blacklist. And since they now load when you launch the game, I believe clients will ALWAYS get errors since its not possible to intercept that in time (unless they always have your mod active).
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