ns2_derelict feedback

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  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 822 Advanced user
    edited August 2015
    I even saw some little things with bots testing that makes me think this map did not go through a proper testing program session.
    This will make PT / MT sad. While the Build Machine was beeing built (hurhur) and afterwards, there was pretty much nothing else to test but Derelict. Up and down and back and forth.
    (Excluding myself, because my crappy PC doesn't allow. I took a break).
    So apparently when we play since earliest stages of a map, we are content when the map hits fun level and basic balance. We need more PT / MT.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    "More" isn't the issue i think. I don't know how playtesting is done exactly. If it is like other games i'm afraid it's not enough. Playing games is a good thing but it shouldn't be the only thing to do. NS2 Require a little more.

    It requires a wall of text to detail everything (task table and test matrix). It's a project on its own.
    Simply; playing games shouldn't be the only thing.
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  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 822 Advanced user
    edited August 2015
    It requires a wall of text to detail everything (task table and test matrix). It's a project on its own.
    Simply; playing games shouldn't be the only thing.
    I'm pretty sure @Asraniel and the other leads have those. To some extent all kinds of tests are performed. Leak searches, unfair jump spots, camping spots, bile locations etc. But the best testing is still playing games. Here we're lacking people. Hardly any games bigger than 6v6 on EUPT. Also its always kinda the same people showing up, that know each others playstyle. I'm not sure, but I think we also don't have comp teams playing vs. on the maps. (Except for the showmatch with Hugh?)

    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @Wob

    You disagreed with my post recounting the internal history that occurred with vents and this map? lol..

    I suppose I question the skill of those high skilled players that utilise every nook and cranny well.

    IronHorse wrote: »
    higher skilled players felt like they did not need them in the map when it was played (that was the feedback provided)... and it seemed to play well already without them at that level - so advocating for vents came down to a "for pub players" argument internally.
    As above... And obviously your map testing team is not up to par with what the community feels like (at almost all skill levels apparently). This isn't a dig, just something to reflect on perhaps.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    While I see your point regarding high level marines shutting down lanes, high level aliens are far far better at juking and utilizing the many nooks, crannies, and cover provided throughout the map than lesser skilled players are that would otherwise rely on alternate routes.
    But what I'm saying is that high level marines are better at denying/killing aliens using nooks, crannies, and cover provided throughout the map.
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 822 Advanced user
    As above... And obviously your map testing team is not up to par with what the community feels like (at almost all skill levels apparently). This isn't a dig, just something to reflect on perhaps.
    The teams are a pretty nice mix of all opinions about the game and skill levels. The "Needs more vents" objection was beeing discussed, but discarded / postponed eventually (and is now gaining attention again through this thread). Also everyone can join PT / MT to give one group or another more weight. You'd be welcomed happily.
    Also note that the channels between community and CDT, PT and MT are bothways.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    As above... And obviously your map testing team is not up to par with what the community feels like (at almost all skill levels apparently). This isn't a dig, just something to reflect on perhaps.
    The teams are a pretty nice mix of all opinions about the game and skill levels.
    But if threads are spawning so quickly and complaints of lack of alien wins are rife amongst all skill levels, something is not quite right.
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    The "Needs more vents" objection was beeing discussed, but discarded / postponed eventually (and is now gaining attention again through this thread).

    Which was probably a mistake and a reflection on the process used to make this decision. In future map testing events it would be wise to consider if the same thought processes are happening as what happened with derelict.
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    Also everyone can join PT / MT to give one group or another more weight. You'd be welcomed happily.
    Been there, done that, got the badge. I thoroughly enjoyed it when debating with the most skilled people in the community, but having taken part in custom map testing with lesser skilled players, it became apparent to me why they are lesser skilled and thus inadequate at properly balancing maps. This also affected my ability to have my feedback appraised by people who could talk sense meaning that my ideas were not as good as they could have been.

    Also I have a lot of issues with how map testing was treated back when it was under UWE. I have little faith that it could be any better, and so I'd rather discuss and give feedback post-map release rather than what happened before. Something something something NDA not sure how much more I can say about the process.
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    Complaint from across the board: Aliens hardly win, too hard to res bite / re-route.

    Solution: Vents

    Counter: Vents were discussed in maptesting and agreed they were not needed

    Problem: Difference of opinion from two parties on vents

    Conclusion: One of the parties is wrong. If map testers, might be worth revaluating their usefulness/influence. If randoms on forums, might be worth revaluating their influence.

    It's certainly not wrong to suggest that if one party is wrong their opinions might be flawed in other map suggestions.

    Also map testing was a waste of my time. It's much better for me to just give forum feedback after it's released instead of dedicating a particular time in the week to piss down the drain. I gave Loki a lot of feedback for kodiak without being a part of that map testing team at that time and it was definitely more impactful than my time on the UWE team.
    NotPaLaGi
  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,831 admin
    edited August 2015
    Wob wrote: »
    Complaint from across the board: Aliens hardly win, too hard to res bite / re-route.

    Solution: Vents

    Counter: Vents were discussed in maptesting and agreed they were not needed

    Problem: Difference of opinion from two parties on vents

    Conclusion: One of the parties is wrong. If map testers, might be worth revaluating their usefulness/influence. If randoms on forums, might be worth revaluating their influence.

    It's certainly not wrong to suggest that if one party is wrong their opinions might be flawed in other map suggestions.

    Also map testing was a waste of my time. It's much better for me to just give forum feedback after it's released instead of dedicating a particular time in the week to piss down the drain. I gave Loki a lot of feedback for kodiak without being a part of that map testing team at that time and it was definitely more impactful than my time on the UWE team.

    Okay let's get some things straight:

    First you can't compare the times MT and PT were run by UWE with now where things get run by the CDT.

    Secondly you can't compare kodiak with derelict: as first has been developed as custom map with SCC testing it while derelict was developed internally tested by MT and PT (for the sake of greater PR impact).

    Anyone who wants to be part of the development of new maps is always welcomed to join the MT group.

    We like to get constructive criticism but have in mind that the map is not anymore in early development and therefor changes require now a lot more work than they did in early development.

    That said most of the vents suggested in this thread have been tested in early phases of development and turned out to be either useless or to powerful. That situation might have changed by now as the room designs changed a lot through the iterations as well (best example might be turbines).

    But the matter of re-balancing vents has been brought up multiple times to both MT and PT.

    Ofc that doesn't mean the map is perfect and therefor constructive criticism is very much welcomed. But don't expect any larger map changes by now. This map has been tested over multiple iterations about a good year by now.

    We asked in that time frame multiple times ppl to join MT or PT to get involved, if you didn't take that chance imho you have really no right to complain or to criticize the ppl who got involved.
    Developer, Modder and Server Admin of Survival of the Fattest - Ingame Nick: Ghoul
    IronHorse
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    First you can't compare the times MT and PT were run by UWE with now where things get run by the CDT.

    Hmm spend an hour or more of my time once every week, or choose to write my feedback when ever suits me best? I don't see how that changes depending on who runs it.
    Secondly you can't compare kodiak with derelict: as first has been developed as custom map with SCC testing it while derelict was developed internally tested by MT and PT (for the sake of greater PR impact).
    Did you even read my comment on kodiak? This is exactly why I'm comparing kodiak with derelict. My direct feedback to him in my own time was more impactful than my time testing other maps in a dedicated session because of numerous issues. You're actually proving my point that developing the map as a custom map with feedback whenever is better than doing planned sessions.
    We asked in that time frame multiple times ppl to join MT or PT to get involved, if you didn't take that chance imho you have really no right to complain or to criticize the ppl who got involved.

    I just find it amusing that you think the map testers did a good job when lots of people are saying aliens hardly win. It's ok to have done something badly... not so much to blindly defend bad decisions
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    Wob wrote: »
    obviously your map testing team is not up to par with what the community feels like (at almost all skill levels apparently). This isn't a dig, just something to reflect on perhaps.
    Wob wrote: »
    Also map testing was a waste of my time. It's much better for me to just give forum feedback after it's released
    ....
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,831 admin
    @Wob:

    MT server is up and running 24/7 so MTs can test the map on their own whenever they like.

    Feedback and map analysations are collected and discussed in internal forums.

    The weekly meetings are just there to discuss things together in the group (including the art staff) and actually play some games.

    What i tried to say was just that most posts i see in this thread should have been brought up in the early development stages of the map and not after it's finalization.

    Anyone interested was ask to join MT exactly for what you do in this thread, to give feedback. But now it's a bit to late to talk about major design changes.

    In case you want to do some major changes feel free to implement and test them yourself. I guess if the result is really good and great there is no issue to merge them into the vanilla version of derelict.
    Developer, Modder and Server Admin of Survival of the Fattest - Ingame Nick: Ghoul
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    Marines do not always win. Really folk, have you seen the amount of ambush spots?
    You also realise that most aliens on new maps tend to hit walls facefirst while flying, or are navigating on the map.

    The first day (release) when derelict was public we played it in our taw vs taw matches. I went shade hive to give aliens aura to make sure they didnt fly on map solo. (or they didnt go facefirst into a wall with any marine nearby)
    No problems whatsoever.

    Yes the map has some issues, like any map.. but from the matches ive played on it after that most big issues are mainly players screwing up because the map is new.
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  • LokiLoki Join Date: 2012-07-07 Member: 153973Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 564 mod
    edited August 2015
    Ok since this thread seems to be derailing, if there are no more serious suggestions / arguments for and against said vents other than those that have all ready been suggested I will get this thread locked before it descends in to a total farce.

    Please stay on topic
    Creator of ns2 Kodiak, ns2 Derelict, ns2_Undercity, ns2 Discovery, sws ctf Eden , ls_hera, ls_storm, ls_frost, ls_troopers and undertaking the remake of ns2 Shiva and ns2 Ayumi ns2_hera(maps currently on hold)
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  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Wob wrote: »
    obviously your map testing team is not up to par with what the community feels like (at almost all skill levels apparently). This isn't a dig, just something to reflect on perhaps.
    Wob wrote: »
    Also map testing was a waste of my time. It's much better for me to just give forum feedback after it's released
    ....

    What I'm saying is the map testers are not infallible...
    What i tried to say was just that most posts i see in this thread should have been brought up in the early development stages of the map and not after it's finalization.

    That's fantastic and definitely noteworthy... but it doesn't excuse not changing it from now if you want to make it more balanced and have some alien wins and actually have the map played more often after the novelty wears off...
    Anyone interested was ask to join MT exactly for what you do in this thread, to give feedback. But now it's a bit to late to talk about major design changes.

    I didn't know a few vents were considered major design changes.
    In case you want to do some major changes feel free to implement and test them yourself. I guess if the result is really good and great there is no issue to merge them into the vanilla version of derelict.
    I'm bad at making maps and it's not worth my time... I'm happy to give written feedback because I'm good at it (i think) and I feel like it's a worthy investment.
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    So how do you solve the alien res biting issue.
  • ZavaroZavaro Tucson, Arizona Join Date: 2005-02-14 Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 756 admin
    No, map testers aren't infallible, neither are map testing leads. But testing affirmed the belief that the layout was balanced, there was no distinctive or objective bias between either team in a typical 6v6 environment. We don't have all premiere players (rip), nor is it all Div 1 in the map testing group. It's a mix with varied skill, like a gather or a pug. But a mix of people who played the map for weeks and months and saw its changes. They knew the map, its intricacies, value, and they understood how to exploit it, and they did.

    Right now, the map has just released. Much of what you're seeing is players learning a map. Similar effects occurred when other new maps were released, as DC_Darkling stated above. These wins are most likely unstable, but I am looking at this with reservation and caution.

    Vents are not a major change, and they will be looked into to better alleviate players of early pressure (my guess as to the marine victories). Things like vents have been modified in many maps post their release, and will continue to be modified or added in any future releases. This is an evolving game, and the community is an important part of evaluating those needs. I appreciate all the feedback that's been given here.
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  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    So, let's compare this map to summit, which probably most resembles this in layout of main rooms. If you look at the naturals that can be pressured from crossroads, you'll see that even though crossroads is very powerful, it's not an automatic win because

    -there's enough cover to cross the sides (and it even has a vent to cross through the middle), so that unless one side is incredibly built up or has a massive presence there, it's possible to cross. However, in plaza, especially the left side is so open that it's pretty much impossible to cross from admin to biome unless no one's there.

    The right side is much easier, but nursery is so marine-favored that you can't really access it from the bottom.

    -every node that can be directly pressured from crossroads is far enough away that it has the potential of pulling marines out of position so that crossroads is vulnerable. On derelict, though, biome is far too close to falls, and nursery can't be defended. Turbine can be easily pressured from plaza, the location of the RT means aliens have no chance to flank. Similarly, Alley can be covered from the window in the overpass tunnel, meaning defending from garage is mostly shut down without lifeforms.

    -reactor core, crevice, comp lab, and ventilation all have paths that bypass the room or vents that increase the number of entrances that marines need to cover. Pretty much none of that is present in the derelict res points.
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  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    edited August 2015
    I already warned you once UncleCrunch about keeping this thread relevant to map feedback. If you want to talk about other things and ask other questions, open a new thread or PM related people. Everything unrelated to map feedback has been removed. -Decoy


    My feedback on this map :
    • cut the skulks some slack and give them a snake pass or two. Make it 5...
    • It still could use a 5th TP as i doubt there are many 6vs6 anymore in this game.
    Post edited by Decoy on
    ChubbChubbs ???

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  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,477 Advanced user
    Guyz, if we want an easy way to balance the map without major changes, I've got it.

    Pick a static marine start. Make adjustments.
    mattji104
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    http://i.imgur.com/IE5xV1F.png

    1) Decreases turbines marine strength with vent allowing flank and prop near RT to deny super strong position.
    2) Decreases Alley marine strength
    3) NORTH-SOUTH route on west side of plaza improved slightly to allow marine position manipulation (helps move marines out of position to get through to res)
    4) WEST-EAST route on south side of plaza improved to decrease plaza strength and allow marine manipulation (helps move marines out of position to get through res)

    5) Nursery I couldn't come up with any good ideas, so I just threw something in there for discussion.
  • FarewelltoarmsFarewelltoarms gainesville fl Join Date: 2013-03-03 Member: 183603Members Posts: 66 Fully active user
    I honestly think Derelict is a fine map. My biggest gripe with it actually is performance related. I suppose everyone here (all 20 of the people that still post on the forum ;) ) have excellent computers with the latest and greatest hardware. For me, the map chugs compared to something like, Docking, Veil, or Tram. It appears that the maps that were released later, (Biodome, Kodiak, Derelict) have worse optimization than the maps that were released earlier in NS2's lifespan, but I suppose that's to be expected due to all the vegetation in some of the new maps.

    I initially thought the map was marine dominant until I played against an alien team with incredibly good lerks who essentially locked down Plaza. Once the aliens set up in Plaza and a few lerks are out on the field, it's incredibly difficult to dislodge them. Like most maps, the balance really just depends on the skill of the teams.

    The more puzzling issue is, it seems like for whatever reason, the community doesn't really like new maps. The 3 most recent maps, (Eclipse, Kodiak, and now Derelict) are the ones people seem to avoid as much as possible.
    0niMuckyMcFly
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 955 Advanced user
    @UncleCrunch what exactly is your problem with derelict? too marine favoured? or is the map unplayable because of whatever reason. I actually have a hard tme seeing your problem.

    I agree derelict was not perfect but I assume there was too much hype on this map (again)... for MT pretty much all we could do was actually roaming around on the map and making sure that the map is playable and fun to play. IIRC we couldn't test balance that well because we had alot of problems getting enough players for to play a game in the first place.

    I pretty much focused on trying to help loki increasing the performance on the map. And while it is not as good as for example summit or veil, it is by far better than it used to be.

    as for feedback part: I agree with most of @Wob idea, however I am not sure what purpose a door in nursery would have. A lign of sight block? tbh there are better ways of blocking LOS about the usage of doors think about that no one can go through them unheard so sneaking there would be impossible then
    return to zero
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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    @UncleCrunch Well, you may have trained on the map to know it, but what about the rest of your team?
    Training and knowing the map just by yourself doesnt disprove my point of saying that a whole team of aliens not knowing the map will play it a lot worse compared to marines, due to earlier stated reasons.

    I am not saying there are not any balance issues. I do believe we need 'some' more games before we can definitely say for sure.
    One of the big advantages of taw is that we play these maps both in a competitive setting and in a more organised 'pub' fashion (aka not always 6vs6). So for rough estimates its always a nice way to see how a maps doing. :)

    ps.. Meph knows map balance better then I do. :P
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  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    Mephilles wrote: »
    as for feedback part: I agree with most of @Wob idea, however I am not sure what purpose a door in nursery would have. A lign of sight block? tbh there are better ways of blocking LOS about the usage of doors think about that no one can go through them unheard so sneaking there would be impossible then

    It won't really help with LOS but it does stop any sneak which is important i think when there are 2 hugely marine favoured rooms next too each other. Also it helps marines track skulks when they resbite
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    @Wob I agree with the alley and turbine vent ideas (obviously, as I've recommended those exact ones before) but why have the alley one on the ceiling? To prevent marines from entering it?

    @UncleCrunch You clearly do not understand what is involved when it comes to testing a map.
    If 2 hours of looking around the map by yourself was all that was required to test a map we'd have triple the amount of maps released.
    Please keep your uninformed criticisms of a process you are unaware of to yourself - and instead remain productive in this thread by stating exactly what issues you see and what you think best solves them, as others have been. Thanks
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 483 Advanced user
    edited August 2015
    Yeah to be fair the exit near overlook side should probably be on the ground to prevent immediate access to the broken window. Although I do think that broken window should be to the furthest western point of the bridge.

    Some nursery changes:
    http://i.imgur.com/KDxmPS3.png

    It's a vent idea like conduit in refinery. Nursery is a bitch of a room to fight in as lerks/skulks. This vent should help with lerks and yet not make it OP for skulks. Encourages ambush play pre-lerks, and adequate defense when lerks are up.

    Although it still won't fix the issue of bad players running into naturals secured by marines who are standing in OP positions...

    This happened to me today... http://i.imgur.com/dy4tbjz.png

    and this... http://i.imgur.com/XZovkt5.png


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