My 2 cents. Smaller maps are usually wrong. Easier to learn, and feeling better do not help. It's a trap in fact.
1 because ARC distances cannot be managed with entities.
2 usually they got less ressource points. It makes things a little faster in the way "you loose something, it's hard to come back". Or at least hard to keep up the pace (upgrade, time lost).
@MV
Same symptoms as Veil as you describe it. Something critical is lost = brace yourself.
Agreed for the east side. It's been a long time since i'm wondering what a 5th hive would do. At least i'm sure the east side would be more crowded.
But for what i read from you, you say lerks turn the game upside down as marine cannot keep their ground in the end (yes you said travel time, but it's the same on map control topics).
Personally I think that's all backwards. The game was designed and balanced around maps like Tram, aka the smallest map in ns2 right now. ARC spots shouldn't be avoided in maps, they just need to be managed. What's the point in having that entire branch of marine technology if none of the maps let you use it? The idea is to force aliens to attack, rather than forcing marines to enter the hive room. The only time that's a problem is when you can ARC stuff from across the map (ie Cross -> Atrium upgrades).
Personally, I find that large maps hurt marines. Aliens have a huge speed advantage, so making maps smaller works in favor of marines. Phase gates are sort of a wild card in that equation. Personally, I don't think the map should be designed in such a way that PGs are required for marines to win. It seems to me that the tech is designed to help marines get more map control, but if the map is so large that to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time requires bypassing half of it with a phase gate... not a fan of this. It makes PGs way too important. That PG goes down, marines start "gg"-ing. Suddenly a game about managing you and your enemy's economies and keeping an eye on those routes has become a game of "watch central, mine it up real good, because it's GG if we lose that one room".
Personally I think that's all backwards. The game was designed and balanced around maps like Tram, aka the smallest map in ns2 right now. ARC spots shouldn't be avoided in maps, they just need to be managed. What's the point in having that entire branch of marine technology if none of the maps let you use it? The idea is to force aliens to attack, rather than forcing marines to enter the hive room. The only time that's a problem is when you can ARC stuff from across the map (ie Cross -> Atrium upgrades).
Personally, I find that large maps hurt marines. Aliens have a huge speed advantage, so making maps smaller works in favor of marines. Phase gates are sort of a wild card in that equation. Personally, I don't think the map should be designed in such a way that PGs are required for marines to win. It seems to me that the tech is designed to help marines get more map control, but if the map is so large that to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time requires bypassing half of it with a phase gate... not a fan of this. It makes PGs way too important. That PG goes down, marines start "gg"-ing. Suddenly a game about managing you and your enemy's economies and keeping an eye on those routes has become a game of "watch central, mine it up real good, because it's GG if we lose that one room".
Maybe it wasn't clear enough. "Small" as 4 TPs maps. Veil, Eclipse, Kodiak. When you loose something critical (no matter the travel time), the GG clock is ticking. I (also) have seen that on Caged with SCC. You know when it's bad 5 minutes before it just ends. Well... if you know; where's the fun ? What would add some more options ? 5th hive ? why not ?
Personally I think that's all backwards. The game was designed and balanced around maps like Tram, aka the smallest map in ns2 right now. ARC spots shouldn't be avoided in maps, they just need to be managed. What's the point in having that entire branch of marine technology if none of the maps let you use it? The idea is to force aliens to attack, rather than forcing marines to enter the hive room. The only time that's a problem is when you can ARC stuff from across the map (ie Cross -> Atrium upgrades).
Personally, I find that large maps hurt marines. Aliens have a huge speed advantage, so making maps smaller works in favor of marines. Phase gates are sort of a wild card in that equation. Personally, I don't think the map should be designed in such a way that PGs are required for marines to win. It seems to me that the tech is designed to help marines get more map control, but if the map is so large that to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time requires bypassing half of it with a phase gate... not a fan of this. It makes PGs way too important. That PG goes down, marines start "gg"-ing. Suddenly a game about managing you and your enemy's economies and keeping an eye on those routes has become a game of "watch central, mine it up real good, because it's GG if we lose that one room".
Maybe it wasn't clear enough. "Small" as 4 TPs maps. Veil, Eclipse, Kodiak. When you loose something critical (no matter the travel time), the GG clock is ticking. I (also) have seen that on Caged with SCC. You know when it's bad 5 minutes before it just ends. Well... if you know; where's the fun ? What would add some more options ? 5th hive ? why not ?
5TP tram is the smallest map... and you were talking about arc distances and # of res nodes, none of which is really determined by TP count. (Kodiak is the biggest map, North-to-South that is...)
5TP tram is the smallest map... and you were talking about arc distances and # of res nodes, none of which is really determined by TP count. (Kodiak is the biggest map, North-to-South that is...)
It's not only about size but options. Any 4 TP map only require 2D thinking. 5TPs maps are closer to 3D thinking. You have options. The basic ingredient to strategy.
BTW on Tram you can "early ARC" 3 to 4 RTs by controlling a single area.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited January 2015
A couple of big changes, some of which experimental.
CHANGELOG [11th of january 2014]
o Replaced Bypass with Auxiliary Generator (without its res node)
o Rotated Stability 90 degrees clockwise
o Moved That One Hallway and Generator closer into the map now that Auxiliary Generator has been moved
o Created a new res node alcove at the That One Hallway side of Stability
o Created a new ramp connecting Stability and That One Hallway
o Moved Upper Wasteflow res node to Sanitation Control
o Added new res node to Lower Wasteflow
There's a ton of greybox textures about the place, though major surfaces should all be textured. It's not an issue, I just didn't want to waste time texturing every little trim.
The Sanitation Control/Lower Wasteflow RTs might be too close together, we'll see how it plays out. Didn't have time to overhaul that area before tonight's SCC testing.
EDIT: Derp, left the Aux Gen RT in there. Hotfixed nao!
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Awesome, let me know how the games play out. I've had just a few games on this build myself, and I've not yet made my mind up about it yet, so (as always) any and all feedback is very welcome.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
This week's build:
CHANGELOG [18th of january 2014]
o Re-greyboxed Upper Wasteflow with a room layout change and preparation for detailing
o Turned the connection between western Central Processing and Purification into a separate location called Squiggle (for now, submissions for better names are welcome)
o Moved the Lower Wasteflow res node a little bit further into its recess
Upper Wasteflow now sports a glass bridge to lengthen the route a little. I may have to add a vent or something for aliens to have an alternative way of getting in there. Whether this is necessary is my question to you all. It's not detailed, but here are pictures anyway.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I left in some collision geometry on the stairs in Upper Wasteflow because I am super smart. I decided to dumb myself down a bit and remove the errant collision geometry. Yay, hotfix!
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Absolutely wonderful changes! We played a pick up game last night with a lot of Div1 and Div2 people, and the map played wonderfully. I'm still a bit offed by the minor dead-end side of the Aux Gen vent as a marine, but beyond that, it was very back and forth. Aliens were required to be on resources the entire game due to the two "free" RTs that marines have, but it felt new and unique.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
CHANGELOG [18th of january 2014]
o Detailed some of Upper and Lower Wasteflow
o Added something super important to Central Processing
o Removed a super redundant lamp cable from Central processing
o Removed OP hiding spot from Sanitation Control
o Added a vent in Upper Wasteflow, circumventing the glass bridge
o Removed res node from Central Processing (experimental)
o Removed vent from Purification to Lower Wasteflow (experimental)
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
No new build today, so here's a sneak peek:
Sanitation needed to be more marine friendly, so i extended the room towards Upper Wasteflow, raised the big pipes, and stuck the res node in the center of the room. I expect that I have to address the LOS into Upper Wasteflow next.
Sanitation needed to be more marine friendly, so i extended the room towards Upper Wasteflow, raised the big pipes, and stuck the res node in the center of the room. I expect that I have to address the LOS into Upper Wasteflow next.
i like this change should make defending this rt abit easier which is a good thing since marines lose this rt a lot.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
It's been a while, so here we go!
CHANGELOG April 26th, 2015
DETAILING
o Detailed much of the Sewer hive, its vent to Lower Wasteflow and the Lower Wasteflow resource node area
o Detailed much of the west room of Shipping Tunnels, and dirtied-up the east room some more
o Replaced the Descent skybox with a planet-less version
LAYOUT/GAMEPLAY
o Moved Generator westward, its southern exit now connects to the middle of Auxiliary Generator
o Partially rebuilt and shrank down DAT-1 to accommodate the moving of Generator
o The res node in Stability is now part of DAT-1 (formerly known as That One Hallway)
o Added cover in the form of pipes in the semi-circular segments in Lower Wasteflow
o Extended Sanitation towards Upper Wasteflow, raised the Sanitation pipes to make the area more marine-friendly
VENTS
o Removed the little vent that bypassed the glass bridge in Upper Wasteflow
o Added new vent between Upper Wasteflow and Squiggle
o Added new vent between Stability and Shortcut
o Added new vent between west side of Lower Wssteflow and the res node area of Lower Wasteflow
OPTIMIZATION
o Built finalized occlusion geometry around Stability, reducing draw calls in one spot from 2400 to 1500.
really like the new work flat. Only thing i dont like is those blue pillars from veil in sewers. Perhaps if you could get them re-textured they wouldnt look so out of place. or build them up a bit with geometry
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
A little one!
CHANGELOG [3rd of may 2015]
o Added collision geometry to the lower floor in Sewer for smoother movement
o Further detailing in Sewer and a tiny bit in Upper Wasteflow
o Placed a glass window in the Squiggle - Purification hallway
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Fixes and tweaks!
CHANGELOG [5th of may 2015]
o Fixed occlusion geometry issue in the glass window of the Squiggle - Purification hallway
o Reduced depth of the alcove at the northern end of Access
o Completed detailing Access ceiling
o Threw a brick through the glass in the Upper Wasteflow bridge
o Removed Onos stuck spot at Monitoring powernode
o Renamed Marine Start to Main Hold
o Moved DAT-1 text on minimap slightly westward
o Fixed various small holes in Access and the Ready Room
o Apparently the Ready Room needed a pink wall?
Comments
Personally I think that's all backwards. The game was designed and balanced around maps like Tram, aka the smallest map in ns2 right now. ARC spots shouldn't be avoided in maps, they just need to be managed. What's the point in having that entire branch of marine technology if none of the maps let you use it? The idea is to force aliens to attack, rather than forcing marines to enter the hive room. The only time that's a problem is when you can ARC stuff from across the map (ie Cross -> Atrium upgrades).
Personally, I find that large maps hurt marines. Aliens have a huge speed advantage, so making maps smaller works in favor of marines. Phase gates are sort of a wild card in that equation. Personally, I don't think the map should be designed in such a way that PGs are required for marines to win. It seems to me that the tech is designed to help marines get more map control, but if the map is so large that to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time requires bypassing half of it with a phase gate... not a fan of this. It makes PGs way too important. That PG goes down, marines start "gg"-ing. Suddenly a game about managing you and your enemy's economies and keeping an eye on those routes has become a game of "watch central, mine it up real good, because it's GG if we lose that one room".
Maybe it wasn't clear enough. "Small" as 4 TPs maps. Veil, Eclipse, Kodiak. When you loose something critical (no matter the travel time), the GG clock is ticking. I (also) have seen that on Caged with SCC. You know when it's bad 5 minutes before it just ends. Well... if you know; where's the fun ? What would add some more options ? 5th hive ? why not ?
5TP tram is the smallest map... and you were talking about arc distances and # of res nodes, none of which is really determined by TP count. (Kodiak is the biggest map, North-to-South that is...)
It's not only about size but options. Any 4 TP map only require 2D thinking. 5TPs maps are closer to 3D thinking. You have options. The basic ingredient to strategy.
BTW on Tram you can "early ARC" 3 to 4 RTs by controlling a single area.
CHANGELOG [11th of january 2014]
o Replaced Bypass with Auxiliary Generator (without its res node)
o Rotated Stability 90 degrees clockwise
o Moved That One Hallway and Generator closer into the map now that Auxiliary Generator has been moved
o Created a new res node alcove at the That One Hallway side of Stability
o Created a new ramp connecting Stability and That One Hallway
o Moved Upper Wasteflow res node to Sanitation Control
o Added new res node to Lower Wasteflow
There's a ton of greybox textures about the place, though major surfaces should all be textured. It's not an issue, I just didn't want to waste time texturing every little trim.
The Sanitation Control/Lower Wasteflow RTs might be too close together, we'll see how it plays out. Didn't have time to overhaul that area before tonight's SCC testing.
EDIT: Derp, left the Aux Gen RT in there. Hotfixed nao!
CHANGELOG [18th of january 2014]
o Re-greyboxed Upper Wasteflow with a room layout change and preparation for detailing
o Turned the connection between western Central Processing and Purification into a separate location called Squiggle (for now, submissions for better names are welcome)
o Moved the Lower Wasteflow res node a little bit further into its recess
Upper Wasteflow now sports a glass bridge to lengthen the route a little. I may have to add a vent or something for aliens to have an alternative way of getting in there. Whether this is necessary is my question to you all.
Keep up the good work!
o Detailed some of Upper and Lower Wasteflow
o Added something super important to Central Processing
o Removed a super redundant lamp cable from Central processing
o Removed OP hiding spot from Sanitation Control
o Added a vent in Upper Wasteflow, circumventing the glass bridge
o Removed res node from Central Processing (experimental)
o Removed vent from Purification to Lower Wasteflow (experimental)
Sanitation needed to be more marine friendly, so i extended the room towards Upper Wasteflow, raised the big pipes, and stuck the res node in the center of the room. I expect that I have to address the LOS into Upper Wasteflow next.
Good bye lerks...
i like this change should make defending this rt abit easier which is a good thing since marines lose this rt a lot.
Now hurry with a update!
CHANGELOG April 26th, 2015
DETAILING
o Detailed much of the Sewer hive, its vent to Lower Wasteflow and the Lower Wasteflow resource node area
o Detailed much of the west room of Shipping Tunnels, and dirtied-up the east room some more
o Replaced the Descent skybox with a planet-less version
LAYOUT/GAMEPLAY
o Moved Generator westward, its southern exit now connects to the middle of Auxiliary Generator
o Partially rebuilt and shrank down DAT-1 to accommodate the moving of Generator
o The res node in Stability is now part of DAT-1 (formerly known as That One Hallway)
o Added cover in the form of pipes in the semi-circular segments in Lower Wasteflow
o Extended Sanitation towards Upper Wasteflow, raised the Sanitation pipes to make the area more marine-friendly
VENTS
o Removed the little vent that bypassed the glass bridge in Upper Wasteflow
o Added new vent between Upper Wasteflow and Squiggle
o Added new vent between Stability and Shortcut
o Added new vent between west side of Lower Wssteflow and the res node area of Lower Wasteflow
OPTIMIZATION
o Built finalized occlusion geometry around Stability, reducing draw calls in one spot from 2400 to 1500.
LAYOUT
SCREENSHOTS
Marine-friendlier Sanitation Control:
Additional cover in Lower Wasteflow:
Somewhat detailed Lower Wasteflow res node area
Somewhat detailed Sewer hive:
Somewhat detailed western Shipping Tunnels:
Changes of and around Generator:
EDIT: I just published a hotfix to turn some ceiling geometry in Generator commander invisible.
CHANGELOG [3rd of may 2015]
o Added collision geometry to the lower floor in Sewer for smoother movement
o Further detailing in Sewer and a tiny bit in Upper Wasteflow
o Placed a glass window in the Squiggle - Purification hallway
There are 2 marines in there.
CHANGELOG [5th of may 2015]
o Fixed occlusion geometry issue in the glass window of the Squiggle - Purification hallway
o Reduced depth of the alcove at the northern end of Access
o Completed detailing Access ceiling
o Threw a brick through the glass in the Upper Wasteflow bridge
o Removed Onos stuck spot at Monitoring powernode
o Renamed Marine Start to Main Hold
o Moved DAT-1 text on minimap slightly westward
o Fixed various small holes in Access and the Ready Room
o Apparently the Ready Room needed a pink wall?
if you are painting 1 wall pink then you need to paint the whole room pink