Allowing removed view-models

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  • WobWob Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Posts: 485 Advanced user
    I like view models on because otherwise I feel a little information overload and struggle to aim. I feel the view model gives as much aim as a crosshair and it helps to track and twitch.
    SantaClaws
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    Seb wrote: »
    Yes you are right that people don't look through their options everyday, but mendasp does post every change to his mod in his thread and the view model change was publicly discussed both for the NSL and AusNS2 league. Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean that other people don't know about it and shouldn't use it especially when it IS a publicly known feature.
    Please point me to the thread on ensl.org where this has been publicly discussed. I can't find it and from what Herakles posted here, it seems that two single teams made this decision internally after alot of pressure from Herakles side. I am also pretty amazed that Zefram is holding the hand over Herakles after he bluntly admitted to cheating in the league. Cheats are apparently okay if you play in the current prem div, which seems to be Zefram's special snowflakes. You guys have sunken too low, such behavior should not be tolerated in any league.
    Seb wrote: »
    As for the view models themselves, they really provide no tangible benefit apart from personal preference of your HUD. In fact I would go as far as to say as the information loss without viewmodels makes viewmodels on a better option (at least for me). As a skulk I find that viewmodels help with determining bite range, letting me know if I'm visible on a scan/obs, knowing if I'm invisible or healing or enzymed or whatever. Have you even tried timing belly slides as a gorge with viewmodels off? It's hard to time. Similar trade offs are made with lerk and fade. You keep saying that the bit blocks most of your screen just like ns1, but it's really different. NS1 skulk blocks your view almost completely when you bite and the ns2 skulk just simply doesn't. It blocks at most half of your view. But it's not your peripheral view, so you aren't or shouldn't be hindered in tracking a marine if you are looking at the correct angle.

    Marines is really important for me to have view models on for 1 reason, gun jam.
    Thanks, you just helped me prove my point, though you lie a bit. MORE THAN HALF of the screen is being visually blocked when biting, increasing the difficulty of tracking marines while biting them. Sure the portion of the screen being blocked is not the same as NS1, but that does not make the visual blocking non-existent. IT IS RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU. Working around the visual blocking takes a decent amount of skill in tracking during hectic melee combat, removing viewmodels takes away from the skill of tracking in melee combat, because of cases where your target normally would get out of your vision, you can now still see them and track their movements. This is an advantage that rewards bad tracking, something that greatly benefits ALOT(everyone who does not have near perfect aim and can't keep the marine within a 5th of your screen in hectic melee combat) of players if they simply realize the truth of it, instead of merely believing the brainwash of those who got this pushed into the league.

    On behalf of the so-called "tradeoffs", I feel like a jukebox on repeat: Put on HL2-style information(the option is RIGHT NEXT to where you disable viewmodels) and you got everything you need. I truly feel that viewmodels don't have any affect on any kind of timings, except maybe making them a little bit better because the visuals are never obstructed and therefore can't throw off your tracking and thereby also your timing. The gun jam is just as obvious without viewmodels. You don't fire any bullets, you can still see your ammocount and that nothing happens when trying to fire.

    Here is the evidence that viewmodels blocks MOST of your screen while biting, actually really close to 4/5th of your screen, which is by far the MAJORITY of the screen:
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=354895968
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    @‌swalk
    Ignorance means -> Lack of knowledge.

    So when you ask "How can you be ignorant to something you don't know and are not told about?" - that is exactly what ignorant means... Ignorance doesn't mean stupidity or lack of intelligence. We're all ignorant about some things, and I'm not using the term as a summation of a persons character.
    Okay, english is not my native language. I admit I made the mistake of thinking ignorance was a bending of the word ignoring. As in I was ignoring the information that was put in front of me. Yet, I see no public discussion about it and both of my points still stand.

    Nice "removal" of the name calling @NotPaLaGi - you and the other mocking trolls must be blind to not be able to see that I am right about this subject. Maybe your nose is just too far up someones rektum.
    Post edited by swalk on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • herakl3sherakl3s Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75852Posts: 61 Advanced user
    You are getting delusional now.

    It was not pressured and especially not in a matter of weeks.

    We first tested it pre ns2wc and played with it on and off for 5 or 6 month before it made it in ns2+.
    Enough time to perfectly understand it doesnt give any meaningfull advantage, and has big trade offs. Especially on aliens.
    It was directly advertised and avaible in ns2+ when it was official.

    You say you debunked stuff but in truth you are going around the facts presented to you by top players.
    Oh wait you called titus, snails, godar and sauna feb/mar 2014 period noobs.
    Haha, you are funny.

    Your argumentation is still only: "i feel this, i feel that".
    Ie: preferences and no game facts at all.

    You keep saying it's a major skill to track a rine while the bite cone is so big. No. It's not CS. Out strafing, out positioning him is as much if not more important as a skulk.

    By the way a big fov in ns2 has nearly no tradeoffs in fact again your view about the game reeks of noobishness: most fights are close mid range, the engine being unable to display real long distances.

    A mid to high fov is a enormous advantage in ns2.
    No wait it's a cheat by your definition.

    Anyway im gonna be honest santaclaws out classed you allready with his arguments.

    Now it just feels you are posting just to save face.
    Please don't name call me anymore and let it die.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    nachos wrote: »
    I like view models on because otherwise I feel a little information overload and struggle to aim. I feel the view model gives as much aim as a crosshair and it helps to track and twitch.

    Information overload xD Literally, not figuratively, rofl. Good laugh, thanks man.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    herakl3s wrote: »
    You are getting delusional now.

    It was not pressured and especially not in a matter of weeks.

    We first tested it pre ns2wc and played with it on and off for 5 or 6 month before it made it in ns2+.
    Enough time to perfectly understand it doesnt give any meaningfull advantage, and has big trade offs. Especially on aliens.
    It was directly advertised and avaible in ns2+ when it was official.
    Advertised, where? I can't find it anywhere on ensl. If you could give me a link, you would make me shut up about that.
    herakl3s wrote: »
    You say you debunked stuff but in truth you are going around the facts presented to you by top players.
    Oh wait you called titus, snails, godar and sauna feb/mar 2014 period noobs.
    Haha, you are funny.
    I am simply looking at the evidence and present what I find. The stated downsides to not having viewmodels are bogus, made up and imaginary.
    So you make up a story that I called these 4 teams noobs? Thats pretty cute, but I never did that.
    herakl3s wrote: »
    Your argumentation is still only: "i feel this, i feel that".
    Ie: preferences and no game facts at all.
    No, try reading it again, seems you don't understand my argumentation at all.
    GAME FACT:
    skulk viewmodel blocks 4/5th of your screen when biting

    Letting people remove something that blocks the majority of your vision should not be considered okay.
    herakl3s wrote: »
    You keep saying it's a major skill to track a rine while the bite cone is so big. No. It's not CS. Out strafing, out positioning him is as much if not more important as a skulk.
    Yes it is a major skill to track a marine in melee, just like it is a major skill to position yourself correctly in combat. And yes, you are completely correct, NS2 is not CS and it's not quake. And I find it kind of stupid to compare the games. But if I were to make a simple comparison, specific to this topic:
    NS2 is fast paced. Have viewmodels designed to hinder your vision when you attack.
    CS is slow paced. Doesn't have viewmodels designed to hinder your vision. They are pretty much static and are never really taking any more of the screen when you attack.
    Quake is fast paced. But doesn't have viewmodels designed to hinder your vision.

    Even if the bite cone is big compared to the spread of the guns of CS, the pace of the combat in NS2 pretty much nullifies that. You move around(sometimes around your target) while having to aim in NS2, while in CS you would really like to be standing still when shooting to increase your accuracy.
    herakl3s wrote: »
    By the way a big fov in ns2 has nearly no tradeoffs in fact again your view about the game reeks of noobishness: most fights are close mid range, the engine being unable to display real long distances.

    A mid to high fov is a enormous advantage in ns2.
    No wait it's a cheat by your definition.
    I already stated the tradeoff it has, the higher the FOV, the harder it is to shoot targets at range. I get a negative effect on mid-long range aim, which happens pretty often in NS2. Parasiting skulks from afar etc. Standing on top of one of the slopes in cross and aiming at a moving target at the other end is more than enough distance for me to see the results. And it is really only when the skulk is already dancing around my feet that the extra vision from the FOV comes into play. At that point the skulk has higher damage output(vanilla marine vs vanilla skulk) and I'm pretty much dead anyway if I didn't hurt him enough before this point.

    Besides, FOV is available in the standard options. Not in a mod.
    herakl3s wrote: »
    Anyway im gonna be honest santaclaws out classed you allready with his arguments.

    Now it just feels you are posting just to save face.
    Please don't name call me anymore and let it die.
    I'm gonna protest all I want when I see something that I find unethical in the league, you can be absolutely certain of that. I was simply refering to your post, which I will also keep protesting about unless Zefram does anything about it, because of what I just said. It's nothing personal against you. Hell, I had fun playing CS:GO with you yesterday.
    Post edited by swalk on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Posts: 581 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    has a developer confirmed "viewmodels designed to hinder your vision when you attack."? i mean, it makes sense but so does having them for immersion/visual aid sake, not necessarily to blind the user.

    edit: more importantly it seems like the current developers of the game are OK with it
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    has a developer confirmed "viewmodels designed to hinder your vision when you attack."? i mean, it makes sense but so does having them for immersion/visual aid sake, not necessarily to blind the user.

    edit: more importantly it seems like the current developers of the game are OK with it
    It is made this way in the vanilla game. Therefore it's designed to do it. It is obviously not the only purpose of the viewmodels.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Posts: 1,727
    I don't know the situation here, but I did read this thread for some reason and y'all know I luv spreadin my 2 cents:

    I think it's fair to say that (1) no viewmodels is probably an advantage as aliens, but (2) the advantage it confers is most likely not significant. Back in ns1, we considered playing without viewmodels to be a fairly blatant kind of hacking. However, as mendasp pointed out earlier, the alien bite viewmodels are less obstructive in ns2.

    I always argued against these kinds of mods when I played ns2, but looking at the state of the community now and how many other mods are allowed, I don't see that it matters much.
    SantaClawsvartijaherakl3s
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    fanatic wrote: »
    I always argued against these kinds of mods when I played ns2, but looking at the state of the community now and how many other mods are allowed, I don't see that it matters much.
    Sorry Fana, I don't agree to that. Looking at that ideology, we might as well also allow macros and anything else that could lead to advantages. It's a dark path to go down.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    16awnr6.jpg

    Please put all images behind spoiler tags. Thanks!
    Post edited by Decoy on
    mattji104
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    @mattji104‌ - Nice, now try that with a different FOV.
    Decoy
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    @SantaClaws‌
    Are you my supervisor now?
    mattji104
  • JektJekt Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Posts: 1,543 Advanced user
    What building that powernode actually looks like:
    S4h4RZU.jpg




    SantaClawsSebDecoy
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    The combinations are only limited by your pixels, or some other engine thing I don't understand. Point being, your screenshot doesn't demonstrate anything special, except that view-models block your view
    mattji104
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    mattji104 wrote: »
    The combinations are only limited by your pixels, or some other engine thing I don't understand. Point being, your screenshot doesn't demonstrate anything special, except that view-models block your view

    It demonstrates pretty convincingly that you uploaded that pic with the dishonest intention to deceive us in to thinking that it gave that specific advantage when it really only does it with a specific set of settings.

    Moreover, nobody is arguing that it doesn't block some of your view. The question is whether it is unfair or damaging to the core game.
    WobSebDecoy
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, SpainMembers, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Posts: 4,177 Advanced user
    mattji104 wrote: »
    The combinations are only limited by your pixels, or some other engine thing I don't understand. Point being, your screenshot doesn't demonstrate anything special, except that view-models block your view

    You purposedly blocked the doorway with the model, but noone is retarded enough to build in a way that the model is blocking vital info.

    Also, you can't seriously think it's a design goal to impair the player that much, building is already a disadvantage (can't shoot, have to wait for draw animation when you stop) so that model is 100% not designed to block your view.

    And guess what.

    NS1 didn't have a view model when building, it literally disabled your model! Damn, such an advantage!
    DecoyIronHorse
  • PelargirPelargir Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Posts: 1,199 mod
    edited December 2014
    You must be stronger than the people disabling view models. If you manage to do it, you'll be a champion.

    More seriously guys, you're complaining about something that won't be removed anyways despite whatever you can argue. And honestly, playing without any view models does not affect that much (even if it does) the global skill level of a player. Sure it helps to get a larger view (that's the point, right?) and affords to anticipate a tiny bit the moves of your enemy but still cannot provide such an advantage while fighting.

    Basically, it seems to help a way better the new players, rookies by increasing their line of sight and who are not used to play with these view models on, admitting they found out the options on the menus. Personally, I cannot play with them off as much as I can't play with different crosshairs that I am not used to play with.

    It is not unfair, even if I suspect those players that beat me using it (joke). More there are options, better the game is. If it is still an issue for you, make an announcement on ensl.org, those forums, and spam your friends list telling them there's an awesome option to remove the view models which increases your possibility to kill people. Play with it enabled if you feel so.

    But really, stop this endless discussion (is that a discussion or kind of debate?), there are pros and cons but as any option, you can disable it or simply not enable it. If you're bitching about the option itself, blame the modder and the mod that provide such options. Most of the people doesn't care about it, some approve or disapprove. End of this, it won't be removed, move along.

    PS: @herakl3s, I'd like to ban you for cheating but someone told me to not ban french people, guess why. Be glad I wasn't here before to notice that as pro-Referee. :p

    @mattji104: why isn't there any minimap on your screenshot?
    Post edited by Pelargir on
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


    herakl3s
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    @Pelargir - I do want to take a step back now. Because more options != better game. I don't know about you guys, but I'd hate to see an option like white walls and pink skulks i.e.
  • PelargirPelargir Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Posts: 1,199 mod
    @SantaClaws - Should I have said "relevant", "reasonable" or even "suitable"?

    More options such as those that NS2+ offers is what I was talking about as "options". It has grown up till reach many features and options that make its strength. Look at Custom HUD at its very beginning and you will notice a smaller number of options but still relevant and that fit with the game (both competitive and public, especially the 1st one).

    I should have said "gameplay" as well apparently. View models fit with that.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    Pelargir wrote: »

    @mattji104: why isn't there any minimap on your screenshot?

    It was just a quick bot game to show one important possibility of the mod. (I wasn't trying to trick experienced players or anyone into thinking that there's no other angle to look? But whatever, people see the silly first) This thread is useless though. The whole point is that there shouldn't be a choice in play-styles in this game, but everyone's argument is that there is trade offs with the option.

    Might as well add fully customizable weapon/marine/lifeform statistics for a small fee/time investment so that people actually keep playing anyway I guess
    mattji104
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    And to be clear about one thing, I think Mendasp's mod is incredible, I wish it were around when I was able to play considerably. The removed view-models are my only complaint in the whole package as of when I took that screenshot.
    mattji104
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    @Pelargir - I do want to take a step back now. Because more options != better game. I don't know about you guys, but I'd hate to see an option like white walls and pink skulks i.e.
    Removing viewmodels have already taken us to this level. Might as well get those options now were going in this direction and the official stance is that there is no change coming.

    Not banning herakles for admitting to using macros in officials is shameful to everyone who has a say in it and it reflects on the NSL image.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • PelargirPelargir Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Posts: 1,199 mod
    edited December 2014
    swalk wrote: »
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    @Pelargir - I do want to take a step back now. Because more options != better game. I don't know about you guys, but I'd hate to see an option like white walls and pink skulks i.e.
    Removing viewmodels have already taken us to this level. Might as well get those options now were going in this direction and the official stance is that there is no change coming.

    Not banning herakles for admitting to using macros in officials is shameful to everyone who has a say in it and it reflects on the NSL image.

    You cannot really say that an option such as pink skulks has potentially a similar impact onto the gameplay than the view models option? Those are totally different from my point of view and the reasons seem kinda obvious to be honest.

    About the Herakles business, that'd mean banning many people for using a such thing in the past, for older events. What would you do instead of Zefram in this situation? How would you act? Of course, if it is established that he's still using that kind of "tool", it'd become legit to ban him.

    PS: I'm talking for my own point of view.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


    Decoy
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    Pelargir wrote: »
    swalk wrote: »
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    @Pelargir - I do want to take a step back now. Because more options != better game. I don't know about you guys, but I'd hate to see an option like white walls and pink skulks i.e.
    Removing viewmodels have already taken us to this level. Might as well get those options now were going in this direction and the official stance is that there is no change coming.

    Not banning herakles for admitting to using macros in officials is shameful to everyone who has a say in it and it reflects on the NSL image.

    You cannot really say that an option such as pink skulks has potentially a similar impact onto the gameplay than the view models option? Those are totally different from my point of view and the reasons seem kinda obvious to be honest.
    For something so "obvious", there still lacks a proper demonstration of the reasoning here. I know your first language is not english, neither is mine, but dismissing something as 'obvious' is hardly productive @pelargir. It's important to draw a CLEAR distinction, otherwise we WILL have these mods become more and more controversial as they grow in content.
    Pelargir wrote: »
    About the Herakles business, that'd mean banning many people for using a such thing in the past, for older events. What would you do instead of Zefram in this situation? How would you act? Of course, if it is established that he's still using that kind of "tool", it'd become legit to ban him.

    PS: I'm talking for my own point of view.
    This is going to be quite a derailment. I'm going to make this one post on this topic, unless someone starts a new thread.

    First of all. I don't want to say that Herakles, or anyone else, requires a BAN or even suspension based on macros. In fact, I'd not really care if macros were all together allowed personally. But the fact of the matter is, they were explicitly prohibited. So I do think it is laughable that there have been NO repercussions, correct me if I'm wrong about that.

    In the competitive loadout community (inb4:cough-lol-cough), it was recently revealed that one of the most respected high level players, who incidentally played on Bitey's team, had been hacking with triggerbots for over a year. It was virtually unanimously decided, that Bitey's team was stripped of their tournament titles, in fact, Bitey in particular pushed for this decision in a display of his integrity.

    https://loadout.com/forums/index.php?threads/sinnen-boss-the-abortion-survivor-who-needs-to-hack-at-the-easiest-videogames.13092/#post-152789
    Bitey wrote:
    Knowing this and being a pure competitor at heart I'll be requesting @Klitse @dbldeathdealer to overturn all matches of Industry Standard FraggedNation cup. While there is always a way of "Being clean" in light of this evidence I'll request this to be carried out.

    I don't have anything against Herakles. I'll even defend him if it comes to ban/suspension. But high level players should serve as an example, like Bitey did. In this particular case, Herakles is displaying a very poor standard by boasting about cheating on the forums. And the community rewards this behavior, it's truly a stain on the reputation of ns2 and nsl in particular imo.

    Inb4: but ns2 is dying anyways

    Well, a poor reputation will reflect future sequels as well and reputations carry on in other titles. So if the nsl guys ever want to start a league in another game, you better hope this incident isn't dug up.

    /endrant
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, SpainMembers, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Posts: 4,177 Advanced user
    Do you want to draw a line? Hiding the viewmodels is just removing elements from your view (you could consider it an extension of your HUD), fluro skins and whitewalls is modifying the environment, which is a much bigger advantage, it affects other players and their visibility, not just your own.
    bonageDecoySeb
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    Mendasp wrote: »
    Do you want to draw a line? Hiding the viewmodels is just removing elements from your view (you could consider it an extension of your HUD), fluro skins and whitewalls is modifying the environment, which is a much bigger advantage, it affects other players and their visibility, not just your own.
    eh.. apart from it affecting other players visibility - please elaborate on that, that is not what I understand as white walls - I'd agree that is a good line to draw.

    Which is why I'm confused why it is allowed to remove the holograms with ns2+. Surely that is modifying the environment rather than your HUD. I think the old solution where it was removed in the custom nsl maps was great, but making it an option in ns2+ technically crosses that line the way I see it.
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, SpainMembers, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Posts: 4,177 Advanced user
    The visibility aspect is making them easier to see, where usually you'd have a hard time with it, like when quickly checking corners you can sometimes not see a skulk, whereas if it was a whitewall you'd probably pick up on it easily.

    The holograms are no different from removing the particles from the maps, it's only there because it's easier to maintain it in code than it is to make a separate mapfile (with the workshop problems that come with it), it's making NSL maps happen without having separate mapfiles, ie. competition-level levels without the need to maintain two sets of mapfiles. Which is removing useless visual fluff from maps in a competitive setting. It's different, I'd say.
  • herakl3sherakl3s Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75852Posts: 61 Advanced user
    it was recently revealed that one of the most respected high level players, who incidentally played on Bitey's team, had been hacking with triggerbots for over a year.

    It would have to be proved. You can't ban ppl on NSL by random UWE forum posts sry swalk x}
    Decoy
  • PelargirPelargir Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Posts: 1,199 mod
    edited December 2014
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    For something so "obvious", there still lacks a proper demonstration of the reasoning here. I know your first language is not english, neither is mine, but dismissing something as 'obvious' is hardly productive @pelargir. It's important to draw a CLEAR distinction, otherwise we WILL have these mods become more and more controversial as they grow in content.

    We're not talking about these mods on this thread as far as I know. Sure, it might afford to start a long and interesting debate about making a such distinction, but I don't think it is appropriate place in here. I would be more than glad to participate if someone decides to start one though. To make it simple however, there are huge differences between your own example (pink skulks) and the ability to remove the view models. Both have an impact, that is clear enough but not the same one and they don't even focus on the same purpose. Meaning that think about the reasons that make you remove view models and those that make you subscribe to a potential pink skulks mod. I'm still afraid to say both have "obvious" differences. But here again, I won't talk about that by now anyway.
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    This is going to be quite a derailment. I'm going to make this one post on this topic, unless someone starts a new thread.

    First of all. I don't want to say that Herakles, or anyone else, requires a BAN or even suspension based on macros. In fact, I'd not really care if macros were all together allowed personally. But the fact of the matter is, they were explicitly prohibited. So I do think it is laughable that there have been NO repercussions, correct me if I'm wrong about that.

    In the competitive loadout community (inb4:cough-lol-cough), it was recently revealed that one of the most respected high level players, who incidentally played on Bitey's team, had been hacking with triggerbots for over a year. It was virtually unanimously decided, that Bitey's team was stripped of their tournament titles, in fact, Bitey in particular pushed for this decision in a display of his integrity.

    Should we ban any people saying they were cheating? I'm not Head Admin, this is not my matter to ban people that may have cheated in the past, during past seasons or whatever. He says he used macros, that could be true, why would he lie? Does he deserve some kind of sanction? Probably but what? From my point of view, you cannot ban someone who doesn't play anymore, or his team to be more precise, admitting that he deserves a ban. Claiming that you cheat isn't a proof of your cheating. And in this case, it looks impossible to prove something that happened a long time ago. What should we do? I know now that he could have cheated before, I'm aware of it, that's fine, I'll take deeper attention onto him for his next matches.Your comparison isn't relevant, both cases are different and cannot be interpreted in the same way.
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    I don't have anything against Herakles. I'll even defend him if it comes to ban/suspension. But high level players should serve as an example, like Bitey did. In this particular case, Herakles is displaying a very poor standard by boasting about cheating on the forums. And the community rewards this behavior, it's truly a stain on the reputation of ns2 and nsl in particular imo.

    Inb4: but ns2 is dying anyways

    Well, a poor reputation will reflect future sequels as well and reputations carry on in other titles. So if the nsl guys ever want to start a league in another game, you better hope this incident isn't dug up.

    I do not approve his behavior claiming that he used macros on the past. You cannot simply give a ban to someone because he said he used to "cheat". I'm sorry, but I'm not working like that. He shouldn't have done this, and neither being "proud" to claim it on the forums, his statement wasn't even relevant on the thread. However, I accept that for many reasons. Herakles used to help many players to improve, mainly french teams and players but not only. It is not a good excuse but as you said, NS2 is also dying and could we sanction all the guys that may have cheated once? if they're not doing it again? Should we let down these players according of their bad actions and despite their good's? It is not possible to sanction all of them, or punish, whatever.

    Nevertheless, I can't define the bunch of awesomes he earned by his message...

    And about starting another league in another game, you feel a bit rude knowing so few, sorry. You cannot sum up a whole organization with the actions of a few people.
    Post edited by Pelargir on
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


    herakl3s
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    Mendasp wrote: »
    Do you want to draw a line? Hiding the viewmodels is just removing elements from your view (you could consider it an extension of your HUD), fluro skins and whitewalls is modifying the environment, which is a much bigger advantage, it affects other players and their visibility, not just your own.

    Removing elements from your view also affects other players and not just yourself.
    mattji104
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