The clause in the rules that says it is illegal to change models clearly has some exceptions. You're allowed to use whatever model of skulk you want (vanilla, shadow, albino) or what badge you wear (titus, snails, etc). And now, you're also allowed to enable or disable your view model. The rule seems to be intended to stop people from making unauthorized model changes. If view model changes are authorized, then the rule doesn't apply. The argument against removing view models from a rules perspective just doesn't hold water.
I can understand your argument that it changes the game. Removing the gun and the teeth surely do something. Pros: it gives more vision (easier to aim), it removes visual clutter (easier to aim). Cons: removes visual cues like ammo counter/bite timer (makes it harder to play). Does this give someone an advantage? I don't really think so. It certainly doesn't give anyone a major advantage or we'd see everyone use it. They don't. So I'm more inclined to think of this as a QOL option (like different options for Alien Vision or Waypoints or NSL vs Regular lights, etc).
None of the official skins are changes to models as far as I'm aware.
The clause in the rules that says it is illegal to change models clearly has some exceptions. You're allowed to use whatever model of skulk you want (vanilla, shadow, albino) or what badge you wear (titus, snails, etc). And now, you're also allowed to enable or disable your view model. The rule seems to be intended to stop people from making unauthorized model changes. If view model changes are authorized, then the rule doesn't apply. The argument against removing view models from a rules perspective just doesn't hold water.
I can understand your argument that it changes the game. Removing the gun and the teeth surely do something. Pros: it gives more vision (easier to aim), it removes visual clutter (easier to aim). Cons: removes visual cues like ammo counter/bite timer (makes it harder to play). Does this give someone an advantage? I don't really think so. It certainly doesn't give anyone a major advantage or we'd see everyone use it. They don't. So I'm more inclined to think of this as a QOL option (like different options for Alien Vision or Waypoints or NSL vs Regular lights, etc).
None of the official skins are changes to models as far as I'm aware.
Shadow alien skins and assault marine skins all are different models.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
ive read the whole topic now.. (or finally reread) and I shall say, just lock it. Let it be done.
The topic starter has requested to be informed as to the why.
The topic started said in the opening post to not agree with the decision by default.
Both conditions has been met, so the topic served its purpose?
Many things in ns2 can already be changed. I will argue on a personal note that I would suck, A LOT, more without custom crosshairs.
So many other things partially obscure or influence view, performance, and the information the player gets.. Folk will never agree.
You can make this topic go to page 99 and we will be repeating arguments all over.
The clause in the rules that says it is illegal to change models clearly has some exceptions. You're allowed to use whatever model of skulk you want (vanilla, shadow, albino) or what badge you wear (titus, snails, etc). And now, you're also allowed to enable or disable your view model. The rule seems to be intended to stop people from making unauthorized model changes. If view model changes are authorized, then the rule doesn't apply. The argument against removing view models from a rules perspective just doesn't hold water.
Yeah, all the exceptions are in the rules, except the part about viewmodels. Which is a contradiction to it actually being legal to use. The rules prohibit all model changes except the stated exceptions.
I agree that this is not any argument as to why they should be removed. I simply think that it is outrageous that there have been no announcement on the league site and this information is not even incorporated into the ruleset used in the season:
11. Game Modifications
(a) No player may at any time use an ‘mod’ of any kind, to modify Natural Selection 2 lua script or otherwise, except:
(i) Custom cross hairs
(ii) Transparent maps
(iii) Custom map colors
(iv) Other mods that do not change game shaders, textures, models, game play logic, aim-assistance or otherwise grant unfair advantage
(v) Custom alien visions that are not included in NS2+ is expressly prohibited.
(b) Female marine model and Shadow skinned aliens are permissible.
If you didn't go to these forums/looked through ns2+ options/was told about it by someone, you would never know about it. I only found out about if after we got knocked out of the season, by finding this thread. This site is not really a part of the league, even if there is alot of cooperation between the two. Only a minority of the league players come here, while on the other hand by far the majority of them keep an eye on the league site, especially leading-up-to and during contests.
I can understand your argument that it changes the game. Removing the gun and the teeth surely do something. Pros: it gives more vision (easier to aim), it removes visual clutter (easier to aim). Cons: removes visual cues like ammo counter/bite timer (makes it harder to play). Does this give someone an advantage? I don't really think so. It certainly doesn't give anyone a major advantage or we'd see everyone use it. They don't. So I'm more inclined to think of this as a QOL option (like different options for Alien Vision or Waypoints or NSL vs Regular lights, etc).
The cons you wrote dont hold any water at all, check it out for yourself.
- The ammo counter is on the screen if you enable it in the ns2+ options. So is the fact that you are getting scanned(the scan icon is shown at the buttom right of the screen, big blue scan icon is really noticable when having alien vision on) etc. Look for HL2-Style information, I think it's one of the options at the buttom in the middle menu(HUD, right?).
- "Bite timer" have always been in your headset and your sense of time, still is.
You don't sit and focus on your viewmodel during mid-combat if you are a somewhat serious player, you put your focus on your target which are the marines. Being able to see more of the marines and their movement by removing your viewmodel is an advantage in this aspect.
It's just a matter of getting used to the fact that the viewmodels are not there anymore and realize that the bite sound is exactly the same information as the viewmodel give you by cluttering your vision. Didn't take me long to get used to something that only helped me, although in the beginning it felt wierd that they were missing, after playing with them on for years. But that is just a minor change of habit.
Since these stated cons don't really hold any water, that leaves only the pros. Hence why it is an advantage and not a quality of life option(those two are polar opposites and must not be mistaken for one another), hence why it must be removed from the official league. Everything should be up for changes if it is for the better.
That 4/5ths of the screen shit you've got going on is pretty retarded. Your screenshot is a joke.
First of all, it happens for a fraction of a second, so it's not as impactful as you make it out to be, because in your posts you insist on it like it's like that 90% of the time, when in reality it's not even meaningful, I'm not gonna pull a percentage out of my ass, but it's not meaningful. Now, with alien vision, marines are highlighted. To add to this, if the marine is parasited you see him through the viewmodel, meaning you can still track him during those precious miliseconds where the jaw is "fully" closed!
Not that it matters, because if you're on a local server, join aliens and spam bites you'll see that it impacts next to nothing in terms of visiblity. But if you time a screenshot so the jaw is closed, no alien vision, no parasites, and then say 4/5ths instead of something more accurate like 2/3rds, well, of course it sounds much worse. This amazing "vision obscuring" animation that you pretend exists, should not impact your tracking or ability to navigate, since it doesn't last long enough to make tracking harder, it lasts ONE FRAME. Seriously.
For the most part, you should still "lose track" of a marine while biting, viewmodels or not, people lose track of their target because you are so close to it that any good dodge will make him be outside of your FOV... And anyone that has played NS2 will know this. Unless you want to lie to yourself, the reason you miss bites is not the viewmodel.
And stop pretending seeing through vision obscuring stuff is a skill. There's no skill in having eyeballs. And please, stop trying to shit all over the NSL just because you're not running it, it looks so childish. We've been better off since.
Did I say how little screen time your stupid screenshot actually has? Because it's really ridiculous. Almost desperate.
Merry Christmas.
Oh really Mendasp? Well you missed some very obvious and crucial things(I reckon it might be on purpose to emphazise your arguments).
Seems to me that you are playing on a widescreen resolution. On a 4:3 resolution(like I play with, I have an old samsung syncmaster CRT monitor), it is actually pretty close to 3/4ths(you are right, not really 4/5ths) or about 75% of your screen being visually obscured when biting(check my screenshot, it has alien vision on, just a different one than what you are using, look at the harvester). On a widescreen resolution, it is pretty much the same percentage of the screen, though a tiny bit less because the mouth is wider in the sides of the screen(definitely not 2/3rds, look again on your screenshot. I mesured the opening left over from the viewmodels with my fingers, I was too lazy to find a ruler but you can try if you really want or count all the pixels, lol. I didn't count the teeth for anything. I used the opening in the middle and accounted for the widescreen format), but that tiny difference doesn't make the visual obscurity non-existing either, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself about it. I am not pretending anything, we both took screenshots of viewmodels actually blocking most the vision while biting, just in our respective resolutions and respective alien visions.
You don't always have your target parasited when in melee combat, so I don't find that that argument holds any water at all.
Alien vision have no effect(other than an arbitrary colour change) on the viewmodels whatsoever, they still block your vision of the gameworld. In the gameworld the alien vision highlights targets, making them easier to track. Without viewmodels you can see more of the gameworld. Think about that for a second.
Another fact you got entirely wrong is that the viewmodels does not only affect a single frame. It is an animation. Animations take more than one frame by their very nature, else it would be a still-picture. Yes, there is one frame where there is MOST visual obscurity when biting as a skulk, which we both tried to capture for demonstration purposes. The maximum visual obscurity is about 75% and the total open mouth is what, 10 or 20%? The animation covers up to 75% of the screen over a set number of frames, not a single frame. Feel free to count the amount of frames and make a graph that shows how many percent of the screen is covered by the viewmodels over the course of the animation. Let me describe it with a metaphor: You don't just watch the climax of a movie, do you? No, you watch the entire movie. In other words, the animation lasts long enough to be a hindrance to your vision. I would somewhat agree with you if it was really just one frame that was affected, but that is not the case. Far from it.
I never claimed that the effect is there 90% of the time, not sure which hole you dug that up from. Seems like more needless misinformation to mislead the crowds and discredit my arguments. But I reckon it obscures vision(to some degree) pretty close to 40% of the time, when spamming bites. The animation IS long enough to actually punish you for bad tracking, especially evident if the marines know when and where to jump. The moments in which you try to land your bites are among the most crucial moments on aliens, hence why I think it is an advantage to remove the viewmodels.
Keeping your target in the remaining gameworld vision you have left from the viewmodels visual obscurity ARE actual skills. They are called "aiming and tracking", pretty important skills in NS2 if you ask me. I simply want those skills emphazised. Without viewmodels you are punished way less if your tracking is a bit off, since you have more viewable space. You even say yourself that marines getting out of your vision in hectic melee combat, actually DO happen both with and without viewmodels, so you must also awknowlegde the fact that you are punished way less if you have your viewmodels removed, due to the extra vision and tracking ability gained.
I can see why you fight so hard for this to stay, you used alot of hours on implementing it. I've coded game mechanics myself(albeit not in NS2), I know how much time is spent on it. Removing it from the league would mean that it is a wasted effort. But from that, to calling my arguments retarded, not meaningful and a joke, is not really a good discussion method. Sorry, but I do not think we should keep it for the sake of not having wasted your time. You should blame the ones that got you to make it in the first place, not the ones arguing against it because the extra vision is an advantage.
Unfortunately the mod lies in the same group of mods as pink skulks and whitewalls, which most gamers with respect for fair play loathe, hence why I am so persistent about getting it removed from the league and angry about the manner in which it was implemented into the league. Only a fraction of the competetive playerbase follows the ns2+ thread on THESE forums(not the league forums, I mean, c'mon).
All three mods(removing viewmodels, colour your aliens solid pink, colour your walltextures white) remove visual obscurity and therefore as a result; make it easier for you to keep track of your target(differs from accuracy).
It is actually quite simple to explain why it is an advantage: the more you are able to see on your screen(the less visual obscurity you have), the easier it is to keep track of your target(again, differs from accuracy). Because you have more viewable space available to be tracking your target and it's movement with.
In all my testing marines have very often been in the area of the screen where they would otherwise be completely out of my vision because of the viewmodels(I don't posses natural aimbot in my hands). Which means I had alot easier time keeping track of their exact movements while fighting in melee combat. This has been very evident for me on both skulking and lerking, especially when dealing with marines that know exactly when and where to jump.
Merry christmas and happy new years Mendasp, seems you are in the holiday spirit. Hugs goes out to you. Decoy put me in jail I must do nice things.
If it is a clear advantage, then why aren't all of the premier players using it?
I guess some just prefer what they are used to and don't care for such advantages. Or only tried it when it first came out and lots of the information(ammo counter, scan icon) was missing(I am guessing?). I don't know, I mean, it's not like the current prem div are at what you would call a professional level in other bigger competetive games. Most of them barely play the game.
I would say far from it, the top level in NS2 was never like that, although the top players have been really good at the game and able to wreck anyone below their level. I played there in the beginning with duplex, which I created with a friend of mine and we overall got decent results at the top and even got to finals against Archaea in several contests, with various iterations of duplex. Fun fact, although we never came close to beating them in officials, we beat them in a pcw shortly before they went to Cologne for the first time against exertus, that was a bit of a sour win. :P But I think it was a wake-up call for them, they did much better at the event and really stepped up their game onwards.
In reality, I think NS2s playerbase was and still is too small to reach such high levels of play. And as said before again, this is no shame to the ones playing at the top now, you are still the best current teams. But that doesn't make it okay to allow advantages like this.
Decoy warned me that the thread is being closed and this topic is still unresolved in regards to the league. We have contradictions in the rules and the issue of removing viewmodels being an advantage, not a "quality of life" option in regards to NS2.
Comments
@DC_Darkling Discussed on page 1.
If you could ever make me feel shame, dont worry, I'll kill myself.
Just close it, clearly it's useless @decoy
The topic starter has requested to be informed as to the why.
The topic started said in the opening post to not agree with the decision by default.
Both conditions has been met, so the topic served its purpose?
Many things in ns2 can already be changed. I will argue on a personal note that I would suck, A LOT, more without custom crosshairs.
So many other things partially obscure or influence view, performance, and the information the player gets.. Folk will never agree.
You can make this topic go to page 99 and we will be repeating arguments all over.
I agree that this is not any argument as to why they should be removed. I simply think that it is outrageous that there have been no announcement on the league site and this information is not even incorporated into the ruleset used in the season:
11. Game Modifications
(a) No player may at any time use an ‘mod’ of any kind, to modify Natural Selection 2 lua script or otherwise, except:
(i) Custom cross hairs
(ii) Transparent maps
(iii) Custom map colors
(iv) Other mods that do not change game shaders, textures, models, game play logic, aim-assistance or otherwise grant unfair advantage
(v) Custom alien visions that are not included in NS2+ is expressly prohibited.
(b) Female marine model and Shadow skinned aliens are permissible.
If you didn't go to these forums/looked through ns2+ options/was told about it by someone, you would never know about it. I only found out about if after we got knocked out of the season, by finding this thread. This site is not really a part of the league, even if there is alot of cooperation between the two. Only a minority of the league players come here, while on the other hand by far the majority of them keep an eye on the league site, especially leading-up-to and during contests.
The cons you wrote dont hold any water at all, check it out for yourself.
- The ammo counter is on the screen if you enable it in the ns2+ options. So is the fact that you are getting scanned(the scan icon is shown at the buttom right of the screen, big blue scan icon is really noticable when having alien vision on) etc. Look for HL2-Style information, I think it's one of the options at the buttom in the middle menu(HUD, right?).
- "Bite timer" have always been in your headset and your sense of time, still is.
You don't sit and focus on your viewmodel during mid-combat if you are a somewhat serious player, you put your focus on your target which are the marines. Being able to see more of the marines and their movement by removing your viewmodel is an advantage in this aspect.
It's just a matter of getting used to the fact that the viewmodels are not there anymore and realize that the bite sound is exactly the same information as the viewmodel give you by cluttering your vision. Didn't take me long to get used to something that only helped me, although in the beginning it felt wierd that they were missing, after playing with them on for years. But that is just a minor change of habit.
Since these stated cons don't really hold any water, that leaves only the pros. Hence why it is an advantage and not a quality of life option(those two are polar opposites and must not be mistaken for one another), hence why it must be removed from the official league. Everything should be up for changes if it is for the better.
Oh really Mendasp? Well you missed some very obvious and crucial things(I reckon it might be on purpose to emphazise your arguments).
Seems to me that you are playing on a widescreen resolution. On a 4:3 resolution(like I play with, I have an old samsung syncmaster CRT monitor), it is actually pretty close to 3/4ths(you are right, not really 4/5ths) or about 75% of your screen being visually obscured when biting(check my screenshot, it has alien vision on, just a different one than what you are using, look at the harvester). On a widescreen resolution, it is pretty much the same percentage of the screen, though a tiny bit less because the mouth is wider in the sides of the screen(definitely not 2/3rds, look again on your screenshot. I mesured the opening left over from the viewmodels with my fingers, I was too lazy to find a ruler but you can try if you really want or count all the pixels, lol. I didn't count the teeth for anything. I used the opening in the middle and accounted for the widescreen format), but that tiny difference doesn't make the visual obscurity non-existing either, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself about it. I am not pretending anything, we both took screenshots of viewmodels actually blocking most the vision while biting, just in our respective resolutions and respective alien visions.
You don't always have your target parasited when in melee combat, so I don't find that that argument holds any water at all.
Alien vision have no effect(other than an arbitrary colour change) on the viewmodels whatsoever, they still block your vision of the gameworld. In the gameworld the alien vision highlights targets, making them easier to track. Without viewmodels you can see more of the gameworld. Think about that for a second.
Another fact you got entirely wrong is that the viewmodels does not only affect a single frame. It is an animation. Animations take more than one frame by their very nature, else it would be a still-picture. Yes, there is one frame where there is MOST visual obscurity when biting as a skulk, which we both tried to capture for demonstration purposes. The maximum visual obscurity is about 75% and the total open mouth is what, 10 or 20%? The animation covers up to 75% of the screen over a set number of frames, not a single frame. Feel free to count the amount of frames and make a graph that shows how many percent of the screen is covered by the viewmodels over the course of the animation. Let me describe it with a metaphor: You don't just watch the climax of a movie, do you? No, you watch the entire movie. In other words, the animation lasts long enough to be a hindrance to your vision. I would somewhat agree with you if it was really just one frame that was affected, but that is not the case. Far from it.
I never claimed that the effect is there 90% of the time, not sure which hole you dug that up from.
Keeping your target in the remaining gameworld vision you have left from the viewmodels visual obscurity ARE actual skills. They are called "aiming and tracking", pretty important skills in NS2 if you ask me. I simply want those skills emphazised. Without viewmodels you are punished way less if your tracking is a bit off, since you have more viewable space. You even say yourself that marines getting out of your vision in hectic melee combat, actually DO happen both with and without viewmodels, so you must also awknowlegde the fact that you are punished way less if you have your viewmodels removed, due to the extra vision and tracking ability gained.
I can see why you fight so hard for this to stay, you used alot of hours on implementing it. I've coded game mechanics myself(albeit not in NS2), I know how much time is spent on it. Removing it from the league would mean that it is a wasted effort. But from that, to calling my arguments retarded, not meaningful and a joke, is not really a good discussion method. Sorry, but I do not think we should keep it for the sake of not having wasted your time. You should blame the ones that got you to make it in the first place, not the ones arguing against it because the extra vision is an advantage.
Unfortunately the mod lies in the same group of mods as pink skulks and whitewalls, which most gamers with respect for fair play loathe, hence why I am so persistent about getting it removed from the league and angry about the manner in which it was implemented into the league. Only a fraction of the competetive playerbase follows the ns2+ thread on THESE forums(not the league forums, I mean, c'mon).
All three mods(removing viewmodels, colour your aliens solid pink, colour your walltextures white) remove visual obscurity and therefore as a result; make it easier for you to keep track of your target(differs from accuracy).
It is actually quite simple to explain why it is an advantage: the more you are able to see on your screen(the less visual obscurity you have), the easier it is to keep track of your target(again, differs from accuracy). Because you have more viewable space available to be tracking your target and it's movement with.
In all my testing marines have very often been in the area of the screen where they would otherwise be completely out of my vision because of the viewmodels(I don't posses natural aimbot in my hands). Which means I had alot easier time keeping track of their exact movements while fighting in melee combat. This has been very evident for me on both skulking and lerking, especially when dealing with marines that know exactly when and where to jump.
Merry christmas and happy new years Mendasp, seems you are in the holiday spirit. Hugs goes out to you. Decoy put me in jail
I would say far from it, the top level in NS2 was never like that, although the top players have been really good at the game and able to wreck anyone below their level. I played there in the beginning with duplex, which I created with a friend of mine and we overall got decent results at the top and even got to finals against Archaea in several contests, with various iterations of duplex. Fun fact, although we never came close to beating them in officials, we beat them in a pcw shortly before they went to Cologne for the first time against exertus, that was a bit of a sour win. :P But I think it was a wake-up call for them, they did much better at the event and really stepped up their game onwards.
In reality, I think NS2s playerbase was and still is too small to reach such high levels of play. And as said before again, this is no shame to the ones playing at the top now, you are still the best current teams. But that doesn't make it okay to allow advantages like this.
Decoy warned me that the thread is being closed and this topic is still unresolved in regards to the league. We have contradictions in the rules and the issue of removing viewmodels being an advantage, not a "quality of life" option in regards to NS2.
Here is the continued thread on the ensl.org forums:
http://www.ensl.org/topics/1291
edit: I don't know how to embed videos
Any further discussions please take to PM