Allowing removed view-models

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  • GibsGibs Join Date: 2013-09-25 Member: 188455Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Diamond, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 173 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    mattji104 wrote: »
    Removing view-models makes it easier to see what you're doing, especially for skulks and lerks.

    You are absolutely correct. Removing the view models does make it easier to see. That's the point.
    "I must combat the urge to see everything eyebex writes is stupid, i must."
    vartijacaperp
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Hmm reflecting on mah comment there and the word "fair"... Marines have to work and aliens get a massage... Something's off there in the fairness department, me thinks :-?

    Also I'm sorry, off-topic is off-topic... I'm just sad that off-topic on this here forum is no long the topic, when it used to be such a lively place of awesomeness

    *wind gust sound, random tumbleweed rolls past*
    It just shows who is the superior species. The kharra win by far if they get massages.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    Kouji_San
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    herakl3s wrote: »
    lol what a joke, i did whine to zefram for months for this to be included and exactly like i explained in ns2 it doesnt change anything.
    Ppl hitting 20% will still hit 20, those hitting evilbot% will still hit that too.

    It's mainly a preference issue, half my mates keep using tracers so it looks more like the lg in quake and it helps their aim.
    Same thing.

    We tried it on and off it didn't change ****.
    It's always better to have more choice than less.

    The biggest shit atm is not this but bite para bite macros on skulks.

    Edit:
    And exactly like bonage said skins, gamma, digital vibrance settings etc... Give much more of a visual advantage than this.

    Now to the guys argueing about those visual advantages.
    Ns2 is 3x more about the sound cues than the visual ones, a good sound system gives you wallhack habilities in this game since you can hear your enemies from 2 rooms away, like the passive sound on non moving lerks etc... This is far more broken.

    Then the fight advantage hahahah biggest laugh ever guys we just found how to even the rine/alien win rates in lower divs.

    The gathered stats i have show that lower div players lose track and get ambushed 90% of the time by skulk on the lower right of their screen.
    Enabling this will allow them to win those early engagements.

    And to finish hilarious from ns1 players argueing about this when pistol macroing was allowed wich is 10x more broken.

    Bitch pls.
    So here is the culprit of this extremely poor decision. I blame you for degrading the league.

    Yeah, sure bite-para-bite is broken and needs to be fixed asap. But that does not make this topic irrelevant, or even have anything at all to do with it.

    And another useless argument from you. Yes, NS2, like most other FPS games, the sound is more important than the visuals once you reach a certain level. But that does NOT make the visuals irrelevant at any level.

    Of course it's an advantage when you remove something that is SUPPOSED to block most of your view as you attack. Not saying that it balances out the winrates, but it is certainly not helping the current ones in the right direction.

    The advantage/disadvantage is not so much the marine viewmodel, it is the alien viewmodel I am the most concerned about. It is designed to obscure your view when you attack in melee range(when you have the DPS advantage), that way it gives the marines a chance to jump out of your view as you bite and confuse you. Tracking jumping marines while biting with viewmodels is pretty much the only thing that requires any skill on aliens. Without viewmodels, that is no longer there. Removing this is similar to removing the walls. So we might as well go all the way and allow wallhacks, right? No, of course not, walls being visible are just as important as viewmodels being visible. They should be visible and block your view.

    Calling this a personal preference is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If you played more than 10 hours, you have a pretty good idea of the timings, and the viewmodels just obscure your view, like they should.

    To finish, I never really played NS1 competetively, I started playing NS1 in 2010 when a friend told me about NS2. All teams were basicly dead and only gathers and a few nightcups were still being played. I would have argued against the pistol script in NS1, if I had played it back then.

    The worst part of this is that it was never announced anywhere that this was suddenly allowed, nor were there any public discussion about it. Degrading to the league in more than one way, removing potential skill and letting obvious advantages take place. Not to mention all the trolling going on here, on this rather serious topic. Most likely from the same people that got this pushed through and have been using it all season, silently. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
    Post edited by swalk on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
    caperpKouji_SanvartijaWob
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    You guys are blowing this way out of proportion. There isn't one competitive player worth his salt that got better because of this change. People who couldn't aim and had poor awareness before will still fail to kill an ambushing skulk with their gun model hidden. Skulks who can't predict marine movement will still get juked and fail engagements with their viewmodels off. Personally, I keep my alien view models on because, to me, its easier to fade.
    Tracking jumping marines while biting with viewmodels is pretty much the only thing that requires any skill on aliens.

    Wat.

  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    herakl3s wrote: »
    Hehe.

    You talk alot about skill in a general and a more focused way so let me go on and destroy your view on said skill.

    When you were ENSL head admin the league was full of pistol macros, wich were hilariously obvious and killed lerks. I personnaly used pistol macros and killed multiple lerks pre 1ms nerf during official matches.
    Yes I talk about skill in general and I am very well aware what kind of traits that includes. I never asked you to try and explain something that simple. Yet you try, in a pathetic attempt to make me look stupid, because I have a different opinion than you. You mention alot of things that are really not any type of skills, it's just basic knowlegde of how to play the game, like baiting etc. Even alien movement does not take much skill. So yeah, melee combat and tracking is pretty much the only skillful thing left on aliens and removing viewmodels makes this much easier for skulks and lerks while biting in melee combat. That is degrading the league by removing potential skill. Sure, it is no where near the difference between a macro user and a non-macro user, but there is an undenyable difference even if you don't care about that potential skill. With almost perfect tracking(being able to keep marines near the crosshair in hectic melee combat), it is almost irrelevant, which is why I am not surpriced at your "testing results". But if tracking is not up at that level, the extra view from no-viewmodels have an undesirable impact on the game.

    The viewmodels have no effect on your timings, so removing them won't either. If you think it makes a difference for the timings, then you are deluded by yourself. Again the sound ques are more important to timings than the visuals. The viewmodels only obscure your view and provide an additional, generally unneeded, sense of the timings. A thing only rookies really need. Once you get passed that rookie level, they just obscure your view as you attack as a lerk/skulk, exactly like they were designed to do. Dealing with said obscured view took a decent amount of skill in tracking, since your actual viewable part of the screen becomes pretty small the moment you bite. With viewmodels, the marine can jump at the instant of the bite and potentially get out of the skulk/lerks view. Without viewmodels that is no longer true, as it is pretty fucking easy(compared to having a viewmodel) to keep him in the viewable part of the screen and prepare for the next bite.

    Thieves think every man steals. I know alot of people were using macros (mostly for pistol) and I were very aware about it, it was a great focus for the referees in the beginning, sadly I rarely got any reports and only a few got punished for it. I was not watching every single game, that is the job of the referees. So don't assume that I didn't care or know about macros. I just didn't talk about it publicly, because I didn't want to let people know that we were looking for it, I wanted them exposed. There is a big difference in overseeing something and plainly allowing it. It was completely against the ruleset that I put up, in other words, you just admitted to cheating and that you pushed Zefram and others into believing it was okay, by being persistent, so it could be legal. It's like they say, when something is repeated enough times, you will begin to believe that it is true, even if it isn't.

    You only dominated yourself dude.
    1-year bans are issued to cheaters, at least that used to be the policy back when cheating was actually prohibited. Hope goes that both past and present cheaters will get punished accordingly.
    Post edited by swalk on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • vartijavartija Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60193Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 99 Advanced user
    Did I just see at least 2 league/forum admins to give awesome to a post that contains personal attacks, fallacies as well as possible confession of cheating previous seasons? (assuming it was punishable at the time). I would awesome that.
    swalkSantaClaws
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    vartija wrote: »
    Did I just see at least 2 league/forum admins to give awesome to a post that contains personal attacks, fallacies as well as possible confession of cheating previous seasons? (assuming it was punishable at the time). I would awesome that.
    Pretty much what I was thinking, this community have degraded so much.
    Post edited by swalk on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer Posts: 4,177 Advanced user
    I didn't want to post, but I find pretty funny that people are repeating the arguments about this from NS1 for NS2 when it's not even close.

    In NS1 the muzzleflash for the LMG was gigantic and the devs said it was meant to do that "for balance reasons". The skulk mouth closed all the way, obscuring the view completely. Now, in NS2, the LMG muzzle is super small and doesn't block anything and the skulk/lerk mouths don't even fully close so you can see better while biting, so it doesn't even apply here, yet we see the arguments from NS1.

    Removing the viewmodels is hitler, yet the minimal particles setting in NS2+ is fine when it removes a lot of vision obscuring effects, you guys are hilarious.
    JektAurOn2GhoulofGSG9
  • herakl3sherakl3s Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75852Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 61 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    I won't make it too long since you talk alot of non-sense and give no facts at all.
    It will be the last reply because your whole argumentation is made of air.


    First see mendasp post for your hilarious BS:
    "The viewmodels only obscure your view and provide an additional, generally unneeded, sense of the timings. A thing only rookies really need. Once you get passed that rookie level, they just obscure your view as you attack as a lerk/skulk, exactly like they were designed to do. "

    So you are calling top players in this thread (I personnaly rate Rant as one of the best fade when she tries hard) rookies?
    We just told you multiple if not most prem players still play aliens with models on because they prefere it and you keep talking non-sense giving ZERO facts.


    "You mention alot of things that are really not any type of skills, it's just basic knowlegde of how to play the game, like baiting etc. Even alien movement does not take much skill. So yeah, melee combat and tracking is pretty much the only skillful thing left on aliens "

    Total utter non-sense.
    The brain game is a MAJOR skill in any FPS.
    Rapha on of the top quakelive players is recognized as not having a top aim but makes it up with his amazing skill at reading his opponent, constantly beating top aimers with epic ambushes, timings etc... in a fast paced FPS.
    You just think mechanical skill: movement and aim (things you do with your hand coordination) are the only major skills when they are not.
    Again you just proved you got no clue at all.


    "With viewmodels, the marine can jump at the instant of the bite and potentially get out of the skulk/lerks view."

    Ok duel any good skulk player, we record it and see if he loses track of you because you jump.
    Again you act like you know what you are talking about and end up making a fool of yourself.
    I give facts you answere with air.


    " you pushed Zefram and others into believing it was okay, by being persistent, so it could be legal."

    No, for everyone reading I'll explain it:
    I asked Mendasp on CDT chat to make a no view model mod and told Zef we would try it in PCWs with snails against Titus to see if any difference would be achieved.
    After countless hours of matches their was no difference at all, we still got rekt by their cele/arc strats, our accuracies didn't change, and we tried again for hours the models on and off in 1V1, 1v2, sg V fade etc... same thing.

    In the end most agreed aliens was easier with models and marines was a preference.


    "You only dominated yourself dude.
    1-year bans are issued to cheaters, at least that used to be the policy back when cheating was actually prohibited. Hope goes that both past and present cheaters will get punished accordingly. "

    You just admitted to not being able to handle those bans ( I didn't want to let people know that we were looking for it, I wanted them exposed.)
    You let people play finals with macros.


    Your whole argumentation is this: "Seeing through a screen obscuring mechanic is a skill"
    There is not even a need to be lenghty about that. Anyone who has played any competitive FPS knows this is false.


    Thankfully your views were and are still viewed as a joke by most players who have a clue.

    Don't be salty bro.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    vartija wrote: »
    Did I just see at least 2 league/forum admins to give awesome to a post that contains personal attacks, fallacies as well as possible confession of cheating previous seasons? (assuming it was punishable at the time). I would awesome that.

    This.

    Personally I agree mostly with the essence of @herakl3s assessment. - but to resort to personal attacks and blatantly admit to cheating and get awesomes is ridiculous. I think it has long been pretty known that people (and I particularly recall hera to be a culprit in early leagues) were using pistol macro's, so it's nothing new.

    But I still find this behavior from the people giving awesomes to this disturbing. I don't know whether it's the name you've made for yourself in the community that gives you a free pass or something hera - but these comments are of pretty poor standard imo.
    vartija
  • Spr1ngSpr1ng Estonia Join Date: 2014-12-06 Member: 199972Members Posts: 1
    edited December 2014
    Viewmodels on:

    + Marine has bullet # on his/her gun (no need to look far away without using hl hud)
    + Aliens don't have to look for small indicators on hud that they're enzymed, invisible, etc.
    +/- Personally I can time hits a lot better with indicators (skulk mouth opening, fade swipes, etc.)

    Viewmodels off:

    + Marines can see bottom right of their screen
    +/- Can't see alien hit indicators (as above)
    - Instead of indicators closer to your middle of the screen (where you look the most) you have small indicators in the corners (I think this is a -, you're never going to look at your corner to check if youre enzymed or not in a real fight)

    These are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head, but I can't believe that you, Swalk, who played NS1, can be upset about this change, when the viewmodels in NS1 were SOOO much more view obscuring than in NS2.

    I wonder why top competitive games allow this, why Quake has a choice between your lightning gun styles, it should always be the widest beam because it takes the most room on the screen. I wonder why forceenemymodel exists, because it's too easy to aim at certain models.

    I can tell you why. Because having more options attracts a larger playerbase with settings, that they can make their game enjoyable to play.

    There isn't 1 choice of options that make you OP, EVEN in a game that has as much options as quake, you will always get people who use different:

    -Bindings (some use wasd, I know me and golden use esdf, I haven't asked many other players. Toxic uses a keyboard button to shoot in quake, because he is used to oldschool, and moves forward and backwards with his mouse)
    -Crosshairs (Some players even like black crosshairs, I used black crosshairs for quite some time in ns2)
    -Brightness
    -Alien visions (I used to use the blue shaded vision, forgot what it was called)
    -Viewmodels (Rapha, as Herakles mentioned above, actually uses transparent guns, not hidden. Pretty OP if you ask me)
    -Huds (Just like we have in ns2: Half life, ns1, or default, It's nice and brings more interest in players who maybe didn't like the default choices)

    This rant has to stop. It's the same as if I told you that NS2+ needs to be prohibited, because the big globe in logistics on tram is gone and the marine can see all the way to the other side. Or when you're low hp your whole screen isn't shaded red. Or that you can change the size and color of damage numbers.

    Stopping the rant here. Easy way to sum it up (tl;dr) : Personal preference.
    Post edited by Spr1ng on
    herakl3sSupaFred
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    Mendasp wrote: »
    I didn't want to post, but I find pretty funny that people are repeating the arguments about this from NS1 for NS2 when it's not even close.

    In NS1 the muzzleflash for the LMG was gigantic and the devs said it was meant to do that "for balance reasons". The skulk mouth closed all the way, obscuring the view completely. Now, in NS2, the LMG muzzle is super small and doesn't block anything and the skulk/lerk mouths don't even fully close so you can see better while biting, so it doesn't even apply here, yet we see the arguments from NS1.

    Removing the viewmodels is hitler, yet the minimal particles setting in NS2+ is fine when it removes a lot of vision obscuring effects, you guys are hilarious.
    Just because the effects have been toned down for NS2, doesn't mean that the effects are non-existent. As said previously, it is only the skulk and lerk bite I am really worried about. I just tried it out myself yesterday and from what I gathered from the few games I played, it goes hand-in-hand with everything I've said here, exactly as I expected. For me, it was FAR FAR easier to keep the marines in my view in melee combat, as my view as not obstructed in any way while biting.
    herakl3s wrote: »
    I won't make it too long since you talk alot of non-sense and give no facts at all.
    It will be the last reply because your whole argumentation is made of air.
    Are you really that dense? The skulk/lerk bite DOES obscure view when biting, that is an undeniable FACT.
    herakl3s wrote: »
    First see mendasp post for your hilarious BS:
    "The viewmodels only obscure your view and provide an additional, generally unneeded, sense of the timings. A thing only rookies really need. Once you get passed that rookie level, they just obscure your view as you attack as a lerk/skulk, exactly like they were designed to do. "

    So you are calling top players in this thread (I personnaly rate Rant as one of the best fade when she tries hard) rookies?
    We just told you multiple if not most prem players still play aliens with models on because they prefere it and you keep talking non-sense giving ZERO facts.
    Just seems to me some "top players" have simply not crossed that line yet. Not surpricing when looking at what the "top players" actually are; the remnants of the fairly small community that is competetive NS2. In other words, the current premier division we have now, is the worst there ever was in terms of skill. It is not to shame the current prem div players, but it is simply just the natural evolution of the community. When the best players leave, lesser great players are left at the top. I personally think that it is a good evolution and have given us better and more interesting matches at the top.
    herakl3s wrote: »
    "You mention alot of things that are really not any type of skills, it's just basic knowlegde of how to play the game, like baiting etc. Even alien movement does not take much skill. So yeah, melee combat and tracking is pretty much the only skillful thing left on aliens "

    Total utter non-sense.
    The brain game is a MAJOR skill in any FPS.
    Rapha on of the top quakelive players is recognized as not having a top aim but makes it up with his amazing skill at reading his opponent, constantly beating top aimers with epic ambushes, timings etc... in a fast paced FPS.
    You just think mechanical skill: movement and aim (things you do with your hand coordination) are the only major skills when they are not.
    Again you just proved you got no clue at all.
    I never said that the brain game is non-existent, don't know why you keep drawing conclusions out of thin air, claiming that is what I am doing. Maybe that is just your level of intelligence. Anyhow, the mechanical skills play by far the largest role. If you can't somewhat keep up with your opponent in terms of kills, any tactic will not save you. Why would one dumb down the mechanical skills in a game where they are not really that hard to master? That is pure stupidity to me.
    herakl3s wrote: »
    "With viewmodels, the marine can jump at the instant of the bite and potentially get out of the skulk/lerks view."

    Ok duel any good skulk player, we record it and see if he loses track of you because you jump.
    Again you act like you know what you are talking about and end up making a fool of yourself.
    I give facts you answere with air.
    I never said that it would be evident on the highest level where tracking is near flawless and players anyhow would keep their opponent in the small opening of the mouth while they were biting. On lower levels where the marines often get out of the field of view of the biting skulks, when jumping in hectic melee combat, in this scenario it would however be very evident.
    herakl3s wrote: »
    " you pushed Zefram and others into believing it was okay, by being persistent, so it could be legal."

    No, for everyone reading I'll explain it:
    I asked Mendasp on CDT chat to make a no view model mod and told Zef we would try it in PCWs with snails against Titus to see if any difference would be achieved.
    After countless hours of matches their was no difference at all, we still got rekt by their cele/arc strats, our accuracies didn't change, and we tried again for hours the models on and off in 1V1, 1v2, sg V fade etc... same thing.

    In the end most agreed aliens was easier with models and marines was a preference.
    Funny, my testing says the exact opposite. Especially skulking and lerking were SOOO much easier now that the mouth is not obscuring most of the screen. In other words, I found it to be a significant advantage. I had no problems with "timings", bite/swipe is instantanous and the sound ques gave me the same sense of when I could bite/swipe again, as I had before with viewmodels on. The only thing you need to worry about is range and aim = no obscuring bitemodel getting in the way. No disadvantage by using it, you still have all the info and feedback you need, available on the screen and in your headset.
    herakl3s wrote: »
    "You only dominated yourself dude.
    1-year bans are issued to cheaters, at least that used to be the policy back when cheating was actually prohibited. Hope goes that both past and present cheaters will get punished accordingly. "

    You just admitted to not being able to handle those bans ( I didn't want to let people know that we were looking for it, I wanted them exposed.)
    You let people play finals with macros.
    Haha, this is so hilarious. I never let anyone play with macros, whenever I heard or saw anyone using it, they would have been told to stop or got a punishment. I have always been strongly against modifying your game to let you get an advantage over others, hence why I am here arguing now. In reality it is quite simple; No reports = no bans.
    It really seems to me like you REALLY want to strip me of any credibility, simply to not have this banned in the league again. I find it quite hilarious :-)
    herakl3s wrote: »
    Your whole argumentation is this: "Seeing through a screen obscuring mechanic is a skill"
    There is not even a need to be lenghty about that. Anyone who has played any competitive FPS knows this is false.
    My whole argument in simple terms is more like: "Keeping track of marines in melee combat should be emphazised."
    herakl3s wrote: »
    Thankfully your views were and are still viewed as a joke by most players who have a clue.
    So players who "have a clue", support rewarding bad tracking of marines in melee combat to those that discover by themselves that it is in a mod and it is suddenly allowed in the league with no announcement or public discussion about it?
    herakl3s wrote: »
    Don't be salty bro.
    Cheaters don't get to call me their bro. But I hold no grudges.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
    CarNagE1Evisu
  • herakl3sherakl3s Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75852Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 61 Advanced user
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    herakl3s wrote: »
    Air. Bro.
    Impeccable arguments.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,479 Advanced user
    Hmm,

    When you're building a power or res node which requires an up-right view of the room, how does personal preference play in?
    mattji104
    swalk
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    @swalk - If the visual obstruction is such a disadvantage and by your account should be mandatory, why is custom FOV allowed? It serves basically the same function.

    Hell, you could even buy a big enough monitor that the teeth would be outside your peripheral view and you'd have the same result.
    WobSamusDroid
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 581 Advanced user
    i would be more worried about people using the black equalizer or raising their gamma than who has viewmodels off.

    i still do both though, 2edgy.
    Seb
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,249 Advanced user
    joshhh wrote: »
    ^^

    And I would like the skulk model changed to accurately represent eyes inside your mouth.

    Wouldn't you in effect... be eating your own eyes? hahaha :))
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    @swalk - If the visual obstruction is such a disadvantage and by your account should be mandatory, why is custom FOV allowed? It serves basically the same function.

    Hell, you could even buy a big enough monitor that the teeth would be outside your peripheral view and you'd have the same result.
    First of all, it is without any doubt a disadvantage to play with viewmodels if other players don't have them. If you remove something that blocks a large part of your vision when you attack, then you suddenly have a significant advantage over others that have not removed it. You can see more than they can during combat, clear advantage.

    I reckon that since the FOV slider bar is a part of vanilla NS2, it is not something you can actually block or enforce. But I might be wrong. However, changing the FOV does not remove the viewmodels or make them block less of your view from what I can see. It's a pretty bad comparison overall imo.

    The way I understand the last thing is, that it is pretty much false and an even worse comparison than the first. When the bite animation plays, it blocks MOST of your screen(not just the edges of the screen, where the teeth are usually "static" when not biting). Which means that if you would want to actually remove the teeth by adjusting your monitor/resolution, you would end up having a resolution that would be something like 1080x100 pixels(a shot in the fog, I didn't actually measure the opening of the mouth while biting). That would really only be a disadvantage, since when you are not biting, you should be able to see a lot more than the small opening you are actually seeing.

    All in all, seems you didn't really understand my point at all.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer Posts: 4,177 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    If everyone can remove the viewmodels, is it really an unfair advantage?

    Also, just because something is part of vanilla it doesn't mean you can't block or enforce it, lol.

    PS: I prefer to play with them on.
    Seb
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    Mendasp wrote: »
    If everyone can remove the viewmodels, is it really an unfair advantage?

    Also, just because something is part of vanilla it doesn't mean you can't block or enforce it, lol.

    PS: I prefer to play with them on.
    Not everyone will know about it, take me as an example; I just found out about it. So yeah, pretty much unfair. I also find this "everyone can do it" argument pretty dumb, especially when the effect is dumbing down core combat mechanics. I find myself forced to remove them to not be at a disadvantage, that is far from ideal. NS2 is not quake.

    Alright, didn't know that. However, I don't find that FOV makes as much of an impact as removing viewmodels, it got actual tradeoffs. I find it quite a bit harder to track something at long distances with a higher FOV. Viewmodels don't have similar tradeoffs, all the "removed information" you need is still there in some form. It is basicly just giving you more vision.

    PS: Do you even play? :P

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    I really thought mendasp already adequately refuted this point, I'm sad that you bring it up again. Disabling the stupid holograms and other visually obstructing animations has been allowed for a really long time now. With those disabled: You can see more than they can during combat, clear advantage.
    When initially implemented, these changes were on the nsl_maps (not some option you can only see when you join specific servers with a specific mod) which were forced on everyone. No one were at any advantage or disadvantage. This was also publicly advertised.
    In this case, this was not publicly advertised and gave advantage to those that use it. I debunked these claims by telling you that all this info that should supposedly have "disappeared" is still right there on the screen and in your headphones, the only true difference is that the viewmodel not view obstructing. So the argument is as invalid as can be, imo.
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    OK first of all. You just admitted that there is an advantage to custom FOV's. By your own admission, you'd rather not play with higher FOV. So would you not be annoyed if you were forced to play with higher FOV in order to "level the playing field"?
    I think I should have posted the advantages of both high and low FOV's. With a high FOV you can see much more with your periphiral view, but tracking targets at long distances is harder than with a low FOV. With a low FOV it's the other way around. Pretty much a clean tradeoff imo. Not anything like removing the viewmodels.
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    I find it intellectually dishonest that, in spite of the fact that, multiple prem level players and others have pointed out the specific tradeoffs from no view models to you through personal references, that you still choose to ignore them.
    As I pointed out, these so-called "tradeoffs" are not really tradeoffs, you are not taking any information away from the player, which is the "tradeoff" claim in this case. It is simply not true. Right next to the viewmodel option there are two options for NS1-style or HL2-style information.
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    It's OK to say that YOU don't think the tradeoffs are severe enough, that's your personal preference and some of us disagree there, this is all fine, this is why the option is needed. But to pretend that the tradeoffs are not there at all to bolster your argument is dishonest. And then in your very next breath say that the tradeoffs on custom FOV counts. There's a lack of consistency here @swalk.
    I am simply looking at the evidence that is right there in front of me. I do not think there should be advantages in the league. This is an advantage, better use it.
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    In addition I'd just like to point out the possibillity, that the reason you seem so biased against no view models, might be because you play with low FOV. If you played with a bit higher FOV, I think you'll find that no view models is actually not that great. It'd be interesting to see a survey or something with what FOV settings people are playing with, in conjunction with their stance on no view models.

    My case: Max FOV on aliens, 6 on marines, prefer view models ON.
    Oh really? Seems you don't know me at all, you assume too much.
    My case: Max FOV on both teams, I like the difficulty of aiming at longer distances, while getting a bit more periphiral view. View models OFF HL2-STYLE, but would prefer if everyone had them ON.
    The reason why I am against no-viewmodels is because it gives an unfair advantage over others not using it.
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    If ignorance is an excuse, then we might as well remove everything that is customizable that may give an advantage. Not everyone knows about NS2+. Not everyone knows you can remove the holograms. Not everyone knows we can change FOV. Not everyone knows you can change your crosshair.
    Ignorance? How can you be ignorant to something you don't know and are not told about? Not many people look through their NS2+ mod options every day, which ONLY appears in the game when you manually turn on the mod or join a server with the mod running and you press Esc.
    Changing something this game-changing within a MOD, WITHOUT advertising it publicly for the league, WHILE allowing it to be used in the league is pretty damn bad. That is my other point.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AU Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer Posts: 514 mod
    Ignorance? How can you be ignorant to something you don't know and are not told about? Not many people look through their NS2+ mod options every day, which ONLY appears in the game when you manually turn on the mod or join a server with the mod running and you press Esc.
    Changing something this game-changing within a MOD, WITHOUT advertising it publicly for the league, WHILE allowing it to be used in the league is pretty damn bad. That is my other point.

    Yes you are right that people don't look through their options everyday, but mendasp does post every change to his mod in his thread and the view model change was publicly discussed both for the NSL and AusNS2 league. Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean that other people don't know about it and shouldn't use it especially when it IS a publicly known feature.

    As for the view models themselves, they really provide no tangible benefit apart from personal preference of your HUD. In fact I would go as far as to say as the information loss without viewmodels makes viewmodels on a better option (at least for me). As a skulk I find that viewmodels help with determining bite range, letting me know if I'm visible on a scan/obs, knowing if I'm invisible or healing or enzymed or whatever. Have you even tried timing belly slides as a gorge with viewmodels off? It's hard to time. Similar trade offs are made with lerk and fade. You keep saying that the bit blocks most of your screen just like ns1, but it's really different. NS1 skulk blocks your view almost completely when you bite and the ns2 skulk just simply doesn't. It blocks at most half of your view. But it's not your peripheral view, so you aren't or shouldn't be hindered in tracking a marine if you are looking at the correct angle.

    Marines is really important for me to have view models on for 1 reason, gun jam.


    Decoyelodea
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    @‌swalk
    Ignorance means -> Lack of knowledge.

    So when you ask "How can you be ignorant to something you don't know and are not told about?" - that is exactly what ignorant means... Ignorance doesn't mean stupidity or lack of intelligence. We're all ignorant about some things, and I'm not using the term as a summation of a persons character.
    skulkgatoZefram
  • NotPaLaGiNotPaLaGi Join Date: 2014-05-29 Member: 196291Members Posts: 103 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    swalk wrote: »
    Not everyone will know about it, take me as an example; I just found out about it. So yeah, pretty much unfair.

    Thank you for your submission for dumbest quote of the year. Please continue to post for the comedic value.

    Edit: removed name calling you a fool since Ironhorse doesn't like that stuff. :P

    Jektjoshhhunrendered
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    LOL this thread just might be better than balance chat these days.
    DecoyCalego
  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Posts: 1,199 mod
    This is going nowhere.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


    YojimboDecoyGibsZavaro
This discussion has been closed.