Map control is crucial in the first minute of the game. Celerity helps aliens get across the map, giving them more map control. So, celerity is crucial in the beginning of the game because it can affect the rest of the round.
not a small server person
By that logic, I could say: Carapace helps aliens win engagements, giving them more map control. So, carapace is crucial in the beginning of the game because it can affect the rest of the round.
I'm talking about map control, if you read that. Carapace doesn't help skulks that much in the beginning (or really after marines get w1). Sure, they may hold a spot for a few seconds longer, but then they die and have to traverse the map to get back there. By then, marines probably own it.
Your "logic" has nothing to do with aliens gaining more map-control.
How many extra bullets to kill a carapace skulk with one shell? Two? Three? Honestly asking, I don't remember.
By two and three - I mean shells.
This has been discussed to death. If you get to the engagements faster, but lose them because of low health, you don't have map control. Map control does not equal map presence, as nachos pointed out.
If Anzestral is saying go crag to help lerks, he'll lerk, and he'll win.
That was true before sewleks balancechanges, nowadays the individual has been depowered (it's true) so that one good lerk can't compete versus a good pub marine team alone ^^
From what a few comp players said about starting hives and they universally agreed that crag is considered the best. I love crag hive for skulks and lerks, vs good players you can actually take engagements at a longer range and win them. Hate it for fades and onos although as Anzestral said, a 2nd hive should be up by then.
I actually think celery helps skulks win offensive engagements, whereas cara helps them win defensive engagements. The celerity helps them close in on marines and it is much harder for marines to shoot a fast skulks especially at point-blank.
Again, shade is something of it's own and is a bit hard to compare with crag and shift hives
The only situation I find that celerity helps me win engagements is in rooms like cargo on veil where its a marines wetdream vs skulks, other than that, I'd take crag. In combat mod, I'd take crag first because it keeps you on the field the longest and denies them kills where celerity might get you killed quicker.
If crag/regen can keep you on the field moving a bit slower while celerity either: you died, respawn and lose any map presence you had or going back to the hive because it might be quicker than dying.
I would say celerity is better early-game if you have a gorge not too far away like nano grid on veil but unlikely on lower player counts.
I really don't see how a one or 2 shell skulk can use regen to win any more engagements than a celerity skulk. That, and having them at the starting engagements usually helps. Map presence? Yes. Everyone is present in the map. To get map control you technically need map presence. Sorry i just like celerity?
I really don't see how a one or 2 shell skulk can use regen to win any more engagements than a celerity skulk. That, and having them at the starting engagements usually helps. Map presence? Yes. Everyone is present in the map. To get map control you technically need map presence. Sorry i just like celerity?
This is essentially why I opened this thread. I really don't see how a one or 2 spur skulk can use celerity to win any more engagements than a regen skulk. That, and having them at the starting engagements usually helps. Is that because I am biased because I like regen?
In my own play, I feel I can get more kills with regen. If I can, I would assume others can. If we can get more kills, and heal without having to go to the hive we have more map presence. If we have more map presence and win engagements we win. Especially if we can control the early game.
I will admit that the speed interp lag argument is not something I considered and is compelling but I still like regen and would love to see some diversity in pub games besides celerity celerity celerity.
I actually think celery helps skulks win offensive engagements, whereas cara helps them win defensive engagements. The celerity helps them close in on marines and it is much harder for marines to shoot a fast skulks especially at point-blank.
I disagree on being offensive and defensive. I like to using my regen offensively. I will get a bite or two as I run by and hide for a literally a second or two while I heal, then go for the kill now that I am full health.
Another thought, maybe people like celerity because they don't need to think about how to engage and hide for a second like I like to, at least at the lower skill spectrum. I am not saying that celerity is for low skill aliens but I could see low skill aliens who run in near straight lines like it because they can get a bite or kill in. In this situation regen would be near useless because you will just be picked off if running without cover in straight lines without a chance to heal. Carapace won't make up for that near straight line as celerity would either. So essentially celerity has a lower skill floor than regen does.
I gotta say, I think personal playing styles will also affect people's preferences. Speaking for myself, I'm a good lerk. I'm not a comp lerk, but f2fin a standard pub it's not uncommon for me to keep my lerk up through out most of the game. All I'm saying is I'm not an average pub lerk. So that said, I personally prefer celery first and I think it has mostly to do with my "style" or I guess just habit. I flash my lerk sooooo much more often when only shells are available because my habits lend better to celerity. Enter engagements in a flash, bite a few times if I can manage, out then back in again, chipping with spikes when I can until I need to retreat for health. When I have just regen, I'm just not used to traveling so damn slow, and my habits with celerity often get me killed.
The same applies for skulls to me as well. I like celerity skulk because I often utilize the same tactics as I do with lerk. Zip around a corner before I can be targeted, land what bites I can, take cover behind whatever, bait until reload, then swiftly back in to finish up.
I know that others are more successful with shells 1st, but my tendencies have lead me to be less effective this way. It's something of an l2p thing for me I guess in that I see and use spurs 1st so often that I really should practice with other 1st ups more. Dunno if I'll ever get used to feeling so slow without em though.
I gotta say, I think personal playing styles will also affect people's preferences. Speaking for myself, I'm a good lerk. I'm not a comp lerk, but f2fin a standard pub it's not uncommon for me to keep my lerk up through out most of the game. All I'm saying is I'm not an average pub lerk. So that said, I personally prefer celery first and I think it has mostly to do with my "style" or I guess just habit. I flash my lerk sooooo much more often when only shells are available because my habits lend better to celerity. Enter engagements in a flash, bite a few times if I can manage, out then back in again, chipping with spikes when I can until I need to retreat for health. When I have just regen, I'm just not used to traveling so damn slow, and my habits with celerity often get me killed.
The same applies for skulls to me as well. I like celerity skulk because I often utilize the same tactics as I do with lerk. Zip around a corner before I can be targeted, land what bites I can, take cover behind whatever, bait until reload, then swiftly back in to finish up.
I know that others are more successful with shells 1st, but my tendencies have lead me to be less effective this way. It's something of an l2p thing for me I guess in that I see and use spurs 1st so often that I really should practice with other 1st ups more. Dunno if I'll ever get used to feeling so slow without em though.
Celerity is good for sure. I too lerk pretty decently too. I just prefer to utilize regen. Both have ways to do things best. Even without my crag preference, I would just like to see some diversity.
I really don't see how a one or 2 shell skulk can use regen to win any more engagements than a celerity skulk. That, and having them at the starting engagements usually helps. Map presence? Yes. Everyone is present in the map. To get map control you technically need map presence. Sorry i just like celerity?
This is essentially why I opened this thread. I really don't see how a one or 2 spur skulk can use celerity to win any more engagements than a regen skulk. That, and having them at the starting engagements usually helps. Is that because I am biased because I like regen?
In my own play, I feel I can get more kills with regen. If I can, I would assume others can. If we can get more kills, and heal without having to go to the hive we have more map presence. If we have more map presence and win engagements we win. Especially if we can control the early game.
I will admit that the speed interp lag argument is not something I considered and is compelling but I still like regen and would love to see some diversity in pub games besides celerity celerity celerity.
I actually think celery helps skulks win offensive engagements, whereas cara helps them win defensive engagements. The celerity helps them close in on marines and it is much harder for marines to shoot a fast skulks especially at point-blank.
I disagree on being offensive and defensive. I like to using my regen offensively. I will get a bite or two as I run by and hide for a literally a second or two while I heal, then go for the kill now that I am full health.
Another thought, maybe people like celerity because they don't need to think about how to engage and hide for a second like I like to, at least at the lower skill spectrum. I am not saying that celerity is for low skill aliens but I could see low skill aliens who run in near straight lines like it because they can get a bite or kill in. In this situation regen would be near useless because you will just be picked off if running without cover in straight lines without a chance to heal. Carapace won't make up for that near straight line as celerity would either. So essentially celerity has a lower skill floor than regen does.
Running in straight lines... and don't think about how to engage.. I.. yea..
Running in straight lines... and don't think about how to engage.. I.. yea..
I am not sure if you are saying you behave this way or not. I do want to make sure it is clear I am not saying you or everyone does this. I am saying I can see rookies who do run in near straight lines without cover would do better with celerity. Lower skill floor.
Running in straight lines... and don't think about how to engage.. I.. yea..
I am not sure if you are saying you behave this way or not. I do want to make sure it is clear I am not saying you or everyone does this. I am saying I can see rookies who do run in near straight lines without cover would do better with celerity. Lower skill floor.
people play better when you give them what they're used to
I think "people perform better when they do what they're used to" is a very common misconception. Sure, switching to a more efficient system may seem strange to use at first and impact your performance of whatever kind negatively, but ultimately, chances are that there will be positive longterm effects.
Actually, I think one of the main problems with humanity is that switching over, doing something that has to be done in order to improve, is so damn hard for many people/organisations.
I like to go Shift or Craig hive depending what people want on pub.
Craig Hive giving more health and therefore allows players to get away with some mistakes is however my prefered hive to go. Furthermore, it is awesome for resbiting skulks who can regenerate faster in vents.
Shift Hive is awesome for group engagements though and I like the possibility to echo buildings to the position they are needed. I find it especially helpful when attacking pgs or securing spots like System when they have been recently taken.
The only reason I dont go Shade Hive is that people more often than not play to passively and dont use its ability for resbiting. However, I think its abilities (especially aura and hallus ) are very powerful. Dont like to deal with the pissed solo pubber who feels entitled to their upgrade of choice though.
i like shift hive, probably because im used to it and it feels weird to not have that extra speed boost as a skulk, im much better at charging in and taking a few marines down with speed than i am with more hps. i also like celerity on a lerk early game. Being hard to hit seems to help me more than regen probably because of my play style and being used to celerity first. also adren for fades is the best upgrade
If I fight a rine with very good aim & master dodge abilites, I need celerity to keep up with him/her. If I have regen or cara, I feel like I can't keep up and due to good aim I die almost as fast as without crag upgrades. Therefor I would always tend to shift hive. On the other hand, early Lerk with regen and a few good spots is awesome. But as soon as weapon upgrades come or in 99% of the time where there is not even a save spot in a vent etc. it is useless very soon and a celerity Lerk is better in the long run. Just how I see it. Then again, there are so many shift hive starts, maybe I just need more training.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
That fact that we are arguing about this, means the game is balanced to the point where we can no longer see an absolute advantage going a particular hive first. Shift used to be the no questions asked best hive to start (Imho), now I am not so sure. As stated earlier, it really depends on your play style. I can't use crag very well as a skulk because my dodging is not very good, so I prefer cele (more speed to retreat). I do very well as a phantom skulk because I instinctively para, bite and run and stop, and wait.
That fact that we are arguing about this, means the game is balanced to the point where we can no longer see an absolute advantage going a particular hive first.
On paper they all are great and we can argue as you say. The fact is though that the majority of pubs are shift hive starts. In practice with majority rule shift hive appears to have the absolute advantage.
This is not a serious proposal but I believe it would be interesting if we nerfed shift hive in order to possibly increase marine win rate.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I kind of wish that Skulk "sprint" (which drains energy) was tested as a part of the game.
BTW Caparace helps Skulks against Sentries significantly. Now only if Sentries weren't so inaccurate at long range... Even Skulks without any upgrades can charge at a cluster of Sentries and survive.
Comments
This has been discussed to death. If you get to the engagements faster, but lose them because of low health, you don't have map control. Map control does not equal map presence, as nachos pointed out.
That was true before sewleks balancechanges, nowadays the individual has been depowered (it's true) so that one good lerk can't compete versus a good pub marine team alone ^^
Again, shade is something of it's own and is a bit hard to compare with crag and shift hives
If crag/regen can keep you on the field moving a bit slower while celerity either: you died, respawn and lose any map presence you had or going back to the hive because it might be quicker than dying.
I would say celerity is better early-game if you have a gorge not too far away like nano grid on veil but unlikely on lower player counts.
This is essentially why I opened this thread. I really don't see how a one or 2 spur skulk can use celerity to win any more engagements than a regen skulk. That, and having them at the starting engagements usually helps. Is that because I am biased because I like regen?
In my own play, I feel I can get more kills with regen. If I can, I would assume others can. If we can get more kills, and heal without having to go to the hive we have more map presence. If we have more map presence and win engagements we win. Especially if we can control the early game.
I will admit that the speed interp lag argument is not something I considered and is compelling but I still like regen and would love to see some diversity in pub games besides celerity celerity celerity.
I disagree on being offensive and defensive. I like to using my regen offensively. I will get a bite or two as I run by and hide for a literally a second or two while I heal, then go for the kill now that I am full health.
Another thought, maybe people like celerity because they don't need to think about how to engage and hide for a second like I like to, at least at the lower skill spectrum. I am not saying that celerity is for low skill aliens but I could see low skill aliens who run in near straight lines like it because they can get a bite or kill in. In this situation regen would be near useless because you will just be picked off if running without cover in straight lines without a chance to heal. Carapace won't make up for that near straight line as celerity would either. So essentially celerity has a lower skill floor than regen does.
The same applies for skulls to me as well. I like celerity skulk because I often utilize the same tactics as I do with lerk. Zip around a corner before I can be targeted, land what bites I can, take cover behind whatever, bait until reload, then swiftly back in to finish up.
I know that others are more successful with shells 1st, but my tendencies have lead me to be less effective this way. It's something of an l2p thing for me I guess in that I see and use spurs 1st so often that I really should practice with other 1st ups more. Dunno if I'll ever get used to feeling so slow without em though.
Running in straight lines... and don't think about how to engage.. I.. yea..
Well, er, those scant few beings known as 'rookies' ...
I like crag because I feel that tactically, it's the best option.
I like shade, because phantom skulls are so fun.
celebrity, celistine.
All the same to me.
We call them land torpedos.
I think "people perform better when they do what they're used to" is a very common misconception. Sure, switching to a more efficient system may seem strange to use at first and impact your performance of whatever kind negatively, but ultimately, chances are that there will be positive longterm effects.
Actually, I think one of the main problems with humanity is that switching over, doing something that has to be done in order to improve, is so damn hard for many people/organisations.
Craig Hive giving more health and therefore allows players to get away with some mistakes is however my prefered hive to go. Furthermore, it is awesome for resbiting skulks who can regenerate faster in vents.
Shift Hive is awesome for group engagements though and I like the possibility to echo buildings to the position they are needed. I find it especially helpful when attacking pgs or securing spots like System when they have been recently taken.
The only reason I dont go Shade Hive is that people more often than not play to passively and dont use its ability for resbiting. However, I think its abilities (especially aura and hallus ) are very powerful. Dont like to deal with the pissed solo pubber who feels entitled to their upgrade of choice though.
That is actually not true, but... let's leave it at that
On paper they all are great and we can argue as you say. The fact is though that the majority of pubs are shift hive starts. In practice with majority rule shift hive appears to have the absolute advantage.
This is not a serious proposal but I believe it would be interesting if we nerfed shift hive in order to possibly increase marine win rate.
Only after leap though. o.O
I mean
2 leaps AND A bite? Win win?
BTW Caparace helps Skulks against Sentries significantly. Now only if Sentries weren't so inaccurate at long range... Even Skulks without any upgrades can charge at a cluster of Sentries and survive.
No. It was ridiculously OP during balance mod (250 testing)