Red orchestra went free and now have less players. I can also see ns2 going free and the quality of playerbase declining.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but RO was free for a day, right? And then it went back to having a price. That's slightly different than being F2p permanently. The latter method will open the door for new players to join at any time, while what Tripwire did leads to a big spike followed by the typical attrition
so basically hats what they did with kodiac DLC? they mentioned it barely broke even and was financially not worth the effort. but granted, that involved a new map and the player-customization-menu so maybe it will work out somehow.
because the game was already dead when they released it
its hard to make money from a non existent player base
CS:GO on the other hand...
rolling in $$$$
CS gained their playerbase back in 1.6 and have simply been riding the CoD re-skin business model ever since. (With the exception of a decent matchmaking system in Go)
UWE actually did pretty well with NS as far as sales go... there were just a number of things that could have been done to retain all the players.
Can NS2 be saved or is it too late? Hard to say but throwing out more F2P weekends and sales in tune with revamped tutorials and instructions isn't going to do much in the long run. Hate to say it but the game needs to be revamped on its business model (or whats left of it), whether that's F2P permanently, using skins, implementing a loose match-making system, reducing the price, whatever. Unfortunately, a lot of these revamps don't seem to be possible with UWE working on SubNautica and the playerbase being too small already. The way I see it, if NS2 doesn't magically gain more players, it will be abandoned (kinda already has) in favor of producing NS3. Which wouldn't be a bad idea come to think of it, as long as its not 10 years away. The community will continue to support it which is admirable.
A huge problem is value for time and money. What does a new player see when he plays this game? Multiplayer only, not even good bots and one official game mode only, no decent progression system, no equal skill matchmaking, no significant items or skins to unlock, no carrot basically. This on top of the loading times which seem to be a huge complaint atm, performance (although fixed somewhat) and getting your face curbstomped repeatedly doesn't exactly qualify as a game someone might commit some time to.
F2p wouldn't hurt uwe, I don't believe. I doubt they are making much from ns2 right now. Uwe has also moved on. I just hope that they have learned their mistakes for the... underwater exploration game.
A singleplayer tutorial / campaign style would not just benefit the new players.
I don't want to sound like an elitist, but there are very few players with less than 1000 hours that actually understand some of the most basic things about the game. I'm not talking about how structures, weapons, abillities or mechanics work. But the real elemental stuff like route-blocking and just overall decision making.
You could make a tutorial that teaches these basic concepts through an interactive experience, by fixing a set of scenarios - rather than listening to some anoying narrator or reading a guide. -no offense to the hard work people have been doing in those areas.
That's actually right on target for what I was going for: a bunch of small mini-scenarios that teach concepts by having the rookie play through them, rather than not listening to a video.
Kinda reminds me of the training level on Half Life or bootcamp for Half Life:Opposing Force?
You know what they say about reality?
Reality is the thing that won't go away - no matter how hard you mash its dislike button...
We are living in an age where pretty much every "game" (no matter how shoddy or carelessly crafted) can and will be released on Steam.
In fact, the number of releases has spiralled so far out of control that on an average day 5-10 games are being pushed out the door. Most of them you'll never have heard of...
And even if they are genuinely good, you probably won't take notice - they just whiz by and disappear... total information overload.
Who shall buy, let alone play all these games? (Sturgeon was right: 90% of everything is crud).
Here is my prediction for what will happen to NS2-Combat: It will be "yet another game" out of another 10 that come out the very same day. All quiet on the Western Front.
It's not 2002 any more where everybody gets excited and flocks to the crazy new Half-Life mod some cool indie upstarts just published...
It's 2014 - we got a plethora of media all fighting over your time and attention, while the hours in the day have remained constant. Besides all the old stuff like books, music, radio and TV, hell, we got social networks, Netflix, YouTube and Phone games now - most of the latter being psychologically abusive pieces of garbage that demand ALL of your free time and try to force-condition you into checking back in regular intervals...
Regarding NS2:
NS2 defies the common understanding/expectation that a "team"-based FPS is something you play completely solo without giving a single fuck about cooperation, communication or concerted effort.
Yes, nominally Counter-Strike is a "team" game, too, but the reality is that on any given public server, you play it solely for your score and disregard anyone else (ever been in a "kill-stealer" argument?). In 95% of all multiplayer FPS games, there is no need to talk to "team"mates - there is nothing to talk about.
NS2 - as a FPS+RTS hybrid - is different, it's more complex than the usual FPS team deathmatch because of its RTS part.
Due to its shrunken playerbase, NS2 has become what I like to call a freak show now.
You'll hardly find a player with less than 500hrs of playtime (yes, this coming from a "super freak" by these standards).
Having spent this much time with the game leaves you incredibly jaded.
At a certain point, you start assuming that everyone else is just as knowledgable as you about the game's hidden mechanics and unwritten rules of conduct/engagement.
A rookie, of course, doesn't have a clue about all this and it usually requires only a few rounds until they are so fed up that they leave and/or uninstall NS2 - just as Beige described. If I was a NS2 rookie, I'd probably react the very same way to being exposed to an average game on an average NS2 server nowadays.
No matter what, you can't bridge a knowledge gap that's 1000s of hours deep and wide.
Hence the inaccessible freakshow NS2 has become.
It is by the freaks and for the freaks now.
Rookies are welcome to try, of course. As in: "Try, crash, burn and leave."
Welcome to reality.
I don't know wether to agree or disagree with you @Hamlet . In your post, there's a lot of true elements, but there are some false ones as well imo. I have to disagree with your closing statement.
A rookie, of course, doesn't have a clue about all this and it usually requires only a few rounds until they are so fed up that they leave and/or uninstall NS2...
No matter what, you can't bridge a knowledge gap that's 1000s of hours deep and wide.
Welcome to reality.
This is just demonstrably false. You have perfectly well established games that have deeper and wider gaps - the reason they work, is because they can afford to segregate the community (Match-making primarily). So the new players won't ever encounter the high level players, unless they actively seek them out. We already have this to an extent in NS2 as well, in the form of gathers, except most of these players still play pubs from time-to-time.
- Impending rant in 3... 2... 1...
I think we can all agree, that it's really the skill gaps between average pubbers that is the problem. Therefore a rookie-ONLY system is really the only reasonable move I see. Perhaps server owners of these rookie-only servers may appoint certain friendly and helpful veterans to mod the servers. For the most part however, I think it's imperative that we do actively segregate the rookies from the rest of the community. At least untill the rookies themselves are ready to move on to the next level in their own pace.
-This became quite a rant, it's not all directed at you Hamlet
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I don't understand why NS2 would ever go F2P. What would UWE gain from such a move?
NS2 doesn't have micro-transactions, so where is the money coming from?
If UWE kept NS2 as pay to play, with the launch of Subnautica they would have 3 products on Steam. That means they can do UWE Catalogue deals etc, potentially still making money from NS2 down the line.
Giving up that opportunity for such a small company doesn't make sense...
If you can somehow get people to grind through the first 50/100 hours of being a complete nub, this game is gold and a lot more people would play it. Unfortunately, this type of game doesn't appeal to the current generation of gamers. Trial by fire just doesn't seem to work anymore.
300 or so hours for some of us nubs...
i have about that much time and i would consider myself nub still too. I'm a terrible alien so i play gorge a lot and lerk the most supportive aliens. I loved lerk in ns1 with spores, umbra, primal scream. I could help the team.
I've watched tutorials (thanks ISE) on how to be better alien and wall run/jump. I just can't get the hang of it. I have since stopped playing because the time required to get a good game in (win or lose) takes forever and I don't have that much time available.
I don't understand why NS2 would ever go F2P. What would UWE gain from such a move?
NS2 doesn't have micro-transactions, so where is the money coming from?
If UWE kept NS2 as pay to play, with the launch of Subnautica they would have 3 products on Steam. That means they can do UWE Catalogue deals etc, potentially still making money from NS2 down the line.
Giving up that opportunity for such a small company doesn't make sense...
While you make a good point, you can also consider the following. Making NS2 f2p could potentially bring a lot of new blood in, which in turn could potentially feed the playerbase for future games, thus creating more sales down the line.
Not to say I think now is the time for that, but someday, when the playerbase is near extinct, why not?
I don't understand why NS2 would ever go F2P. What would UWE gain from such a move?
NS2 doesn't have micro-transactions, so where is the money coming from?
If UWE kept NS2 as pay to play, with the launch of Subnautica they would have 3 products on Steam. That means they can do UWE Catalogue deals etc, potentially still making money from NS2 down the line.
Giving up that opportunity for such a small company doesn't make sense...
I'd agree to an extent if subnautica came out soon, which I don't believe it will.
I don't understand why NS2 would ever go F2P. What would UWE gain from such a move?
NS2 doesn't have micro-transactions, so where is the money coming from?
If UWE kept NS2 as pay to play, with the launch of Subnautica they would have 3 products on Steam. That means they can do UWE Catalogue deals etc, potentially still making money from NS2 down the line.
Giving up that opportunity for such a small company doesn't make sense...
While you make a good point, you can also consider the following. Making NS2 f2p could potentially bring a lot of new blood in, which in turn could potentially feed the playerbase for future games, thus creating more sales down the line.
Not to say I think now is the time for that, but someday, when the playerbase is near extinct, why not?
Imo, rookie mode should not be an option you can toggle, and should last like 20 hrs at least. Then if there was some kind of rookie only system, you wouldn't have a bunch of guys stuck on a server with each an hour or so experience, not knowing what the hell is going on. Hopefully you'd then have in the mix some rookies on the tail end of their 20, helping the brand newbies before they fledge out to non rookie servers... but then it's always more helpful to have some vets in there to point out fails...
Tbh I think it was quite a while before I even felt comfortable enough with the game to turn off rookie mode/ commander help. Certainly more than 20 hours.
Tbh I think it was quite a while before I even felt comfortable enough with the game to turn off rookie mode/ commander help. Certainly more than 20 hours.
I agree, but to tell a new gamer they can expect to suck for the first 150 - 200 hrs seems like a kind of turn off. I know I didn't feel comfortable til around maybe 250 - 300, didnt even start comming til around then. And to this day, I still feel like a nub in the presence of some players. 20 hrs at least might say to a new player... "Hey, don't give up after getting slaughtered for your first 10 hrs in the game. Expect to put some time into it."
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Am I the only one that feels like they get more for their money when a game lets you discover the intricacies over the course of hundreds of hours??
Mechanics that are not "make or break" for gameplay, at least. I enjoy looking for the best combos and build orders.
I realize its not something that makes a product more accessible, necessarily... but man do I feel more and more like an odd ball as different generations of gamers emerge.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
edited September 2014
@IronHorse I think the general NS1/2 community is the older gamer (crap, I am 37). That is why you have such mature and more sensible ppl in game on the forums.
That first multiplayer experience is crucial to player retention, playing in a good team is a key part of that experience imo. On that vein I think team balancing is broken and needs to be fixed in order to nurture those really enjoyable (and satisfying) balanced games that would give new players the opportunity to 'find the game' as opposed to getting totally whipped and being put off.
Maybe integrating player stats from hive/ns2 stats and a bit of moneyball coding is the way to go?
Maybe they shouldn't connect to a server right away. New players shouldn't get in a regular server unless they have a solid background. Simple things like : "You play for the team, not you scoreboard. The team is composed of guys that looks like you. help them..."
Whatever the pedagogy used (filter for only rookies servers, special rookie mode, tutorials, bootcamp etc..) it would be better than connecting to a random server (modded or not) full of ppl (like 24 slots) and get obliterated in less than 5 minutes.
@IronHorse I think the general NS1/2 community is the older gamer (crap, I am 37). That is why you have such mature and more sensible ppl in game on the forums.
@IronHorse I think the general NS1/2 community is the older gamer (crap, I am 37). That is why you have such mature and more sensible ppl in game on the forums.
I think that speaking about problems of new players (tutorials, learning curve etc.) is looking in the wrong direction (in the context of decrease of playerbase). It's not how new the player is but mainly how skillful. Some players are just bad in this kind of game, which is balanced for competitive games and very unforgiving. But still they like this game and would like to play it with more forgiving environment. The way to keep more players around was to divide players not by hours played but by skill. I know that estimating skill is very complex in NS2 but still, no matter how bad it is, it'd separate the very bad from the very good players. Do you ask where's the playerbase? It was slaughtered by some big guns.
Comments
Not exactly true anymore.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but RO was free for a day, right? And then it went back to having a price. That's slightly different than being F2p permanently. The latter method will open the door for new players to join at any time, while what Tripwire did leads to a big spike followed by the typical attrition
CS gained their playerbase back in 1.6 and have simply been riding the CoD re-skin business model ever since. (With the exception of a decent matchmaking system in Go)
UWE actually did pretty well with NS as far as sales go... there were just a number of things that could have been done to retain all the players.
A huge problem is value for time and money. What does a new player see when he plays this game? Multiplayer only, not even good bots and one official game mode only, no decent progression system, no equal skill matchmaking, no significant items or skins to unlock, no carrot basically. This on top of the loading times which seem to be a huge complaint atm, performance (although fixed somewhat) and getting your face curbstomped repeatedly doesn't exactly qualify as a game someone might commit some time to.
Kinda reminds me of the training level on Half Life or bootcamp for Half Life:Opposing Force?
Reality is the thing that won't go away - no matter how hard you mash its dislike button...
We are living in an age where pretty much every "game" (no matter how shoddy or carelessly crafted) can and will be released on Steam.
In fact, the number of releases has spiralled so far out of control that on an average day 5-10 games are being pushed out the door. Most of them you'll never have heard of...
And even if they are genuinely good, you probably won't take notice - they just whiz by and disappear... total information overload.
Who shall buy, let alone play all these games? (Sturgeon was right: 90% of everything is crud).
Here is my prediction for what will happen to NS2-Combat: It will be "yet another game" out of another 10 that come out the very same day. All quiet on the Western Front.
It's not 2002 any more where everybody gets excited and flocks to the crazy new Half-Life mod some cool indie upstarts just published...
It's 2014 - we got a plethora of media all fighting over your time and attention, while the hours in the day have remained constant. Besides all the old stuff like books, music, radio and TV, hell, we got social networks, Netflix, YouTube and Phone games now - most of the latter being psychologically abusive pieces of garbage that demand ALL of your free time and try to force-condition you into checking back in regular intervals...
Regarding NS2:
NS2 defies the common understanding/expectation that a "team"-based FPS is something you play completely solo without giving a single fuck about cooperation, communication or concerted effort.
Yes, nominally Counter-Strike is a "team" game, too, but the reality is that on any given public server, you play it solely for your score and disregard anyone else (ever been in a "kill-stealer" argument?). In 95% of all multiplayer FPS games, there is no need to talk to "team"mates - there is nothing to talk about.
NS2 - as a FPS+RTS hybrid - is different, it's more complex than the usual FPS team deathmatch because of its RTS part.
Due to its shrunken playerbase, NS2 has become what I like to call a freak show now.
You'll hardly find a player with less than 500hrs of playtime (yes, this coming from a "super freak" by these standards).
Having spent this much time with the game leaves you incredibly jaded.
At a certain point, you start assuming that everyone else is just as knowledgable as you about the game's hidden mechanics and unwritten rules of conduct/engagement.
A rookie, of course, doesn't have a clue about all this and it usually requires only a few rounds until they are so fed up that they leave and/or uninstall NS2 - just as Beige described. If I was a NS2 rookie, I'd probably react the very same way to being exposed to an average game on an average NS2 server nowadays.
No matter what, you can't bridge a knowledge gap that's 1000s of hours deep and wide.
Hence the inaccessible freakshow NS2 has become.
It is by the freaks and for the freaks now.
Rookies are welcome to try, of course. As in: "Try, crash, burn and leave."
Welcome to reality.
Everyone has started at day 0 hour 0. The thing is to make ppl interested on NS2 by breaking the learning curve obstacle.
In the end everyone wish for having good games that last. Getting ppl used to NS2 and make it a regular or "from time to time" game.
Even if it looks like the 'buddy diner' conversation :
-Yo dude i'm hungry
-Pizza ?
-Nah too fat.
-Indian ?
-Nah too spicy
-Chinese ?
-Well ok.
NS2 ?
- Impending rant in 3... 2... 1...
I think we can all agree, that it's really the skill gaps between average pubbers that is the problem. Therefore a rookie-ONLY system is really the only reasonable move I see. Perhaps server owners of these rookie-only servers may appoint certain friendly and helpful veterans to mod the servers. For the most part however, I think it's imperative that we do actively segregate the rookies from the rest of the community. At least untill the rookies themselves are ready to move on to the next level in their own pace.
-This became quite a rant, it's not all directed at you Hamlet
NS2 doesn't have micro-transactions, so where is the money coming from?
If UWE kept NS2 as pay to play, with the launch of Subnautica they would have 3 products on Steam. That means they can do UWE Catalogue deals etc, potentially still making money from NS2 down the line.
Giving up that opportunity for such a small company doesn't make sense...
I've watched tutorials (thanks ISE) on how to be better alien and wall run/jump. I just can't get the hang of it. I have since stopped playing because the time required to get a good game in (win or lose) takes forever and I don't have that much time available.
While you make a good point, you can also consider the following. Making NS2 f2p could potentially bring a lot of new blood in, which in turn could potentially feed the playerbase for future games, thus creating more sales down the line.
Not to say I think now is the time for that, but someday, when the playerbase is near extinct, why not?
I'd agree to an extent if subnautica came out soon, which I don't believe it will.
... And ... back to the retention loop...
Just don't know at this point.
I agree, but to tell a new gamer they can expect to suck for the first 150 - 200 hrs seems like a kind of turn off. I know I didn't feel comfortable til around maybe 250 - 300, didnt even start comming til around then. And to this day, I still feel like a nub in the presence of some players. 20 hrs at least might say to a new player... "Hey, don't give up after getting slaughtered for your first 10 hrs in the game. Expect to put some time into it."
Mechanics that are not "make or break" for gameplay, at least. I enjoy looking for the best combos and build orders.
I realize its not something that makes a product more accessible, necessarily... but man do I feel more and more like an odd ball as different generations of gamers emerge.
Maybe integrating player stats from hive/ns2 stats and a bit of moneyball coding is the way to go?
Whatever the pedagogy used (filter for only rookies servers, special rookie mode, tutorials, bootcamp etc..) it would be better than connecting to a random server (modded or not) full of ppl (like 24 slots) and get obliterated in less than 5 minutes.
I was 12 !
Don't worry little one, we'll look after you.
This could be fair, given the learning curve.