They definitely seem to have more players after that big spike
It might have taken roughly 2.5 months to whittle back down, but at present, the playercount is roughly the same as it was before the spike. Maybe an average of around 100 more.
Personally, I don't know any game that "came back".
CS:GO
Not a fair comparison. A follow-up to what is basically the most popular MP game ever, released by an extremely well-known developer with a much bigger budget. They also addressed problems much earlier in the game's lifespan than NS2 currently is. And while CS does have a steep learning curve, it's much easier to grasp conceptually than NS2 (ie "kill all the other team" instead of "secure resources, harrass enemy resources, research new abilities, etc etc"), and it features fairly coventional FPS gameplay, so it doesn't deal with all the player retention problems NS2 deals with
I completely agree with @BeigeAlert I had a friend who has a good computer launch the game and join me for a round or two. He got completely destroyed, complained about how bloody hard the game is and hasn't touched it since.
"The effort required to implement these changes is not worth the reward".
...
...
...
You mean the reward of the game actually being played? Look at counter strike global offenseive, heck, look at the original: http://www.steamcharts.com/app/10
If we got our arses back in place, sat down and fixed this core issue of early player retention and general game intuitiveness and enjoyment this game could EXPLODE in popularity.
I do not want to call anyone lazy here, I know you're putting a lot of effort in, but it's not just about working harder, it's about where you direct that effort. The core problems with this game need to be addressed. Those core problems (which have already been mentioned in the original post) of the game being far far far too brutal to new players.
And that's it, if we don't fix the core playability problem of NS2, it will never recover.
But the thing I want to make absolutely clear is: I WANT NATURAL SELECTION 2 TO NOT ONLY RECOVER, BUT TO EXPLODE IN POPULARITY. I want to see 10 000 people online at any one time, complex games can be successful, look at any MOBA like DOTA 2 or League of Legends, those games are incredibly complex, yet they manage. http://www.steamcharts.com/app/570
I don't play DOTA 2 because I can't be bothered learning it's complexities, yet I play NS2 which in my opinion is a far simpler game. So complexity is not the core issue, it's only a major contributor to the problem.
Guys... A singleplayer campaign, are you serious? Go ahead, do it then ^^ cuz this a) would take AGES to realize and b) is completley not the game for it. You wanna help players? Do not rely on automated systems, but join greenie servers and talk to ppl. It's not that hard and the time is better spent.
And yeah. The game is hard. Prepare thier butts. Tell them that you either can't even be bothered or you LOVE it. There are no lazy ppl in NS2, THATs for sure. We also got no fat chicks ^^
I really find the learning curve or whatever to not be that bad (but higher than many games). I played ns1 when I was like... 12 and understood it. I guess I just don't understand gamers these days... press c, listen to your commander. Kill things. Was ns1 just simpler (Never mind the cysts n alien comms)?
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2014
The minimum player count requirement is a major threshold for NS2 to be enjoyed. Most of the servers in Australia sit empty, while less than a handful are full at prime time. While games like CS can be played (and enjoyed) in 1v1 duels, NS2 is simply imbalanced or boring (depending on serious the players are) with less than 5 or 6 players per team.
The "pre game plus" mod is fun, only for a short while. Often, many players sit idle in the RR after a game, most likely AFK with other things on their hands, and minds.
With complex games like NS2, attempts to capture the attention of gamers usually results in all, or nothing. The steep learning curve isn't what is killing the player counts per se -- It's getting stomped by the "elite" players while trying to experience the game for the first time. It's being handicapped by being forced to play on the team you are not familiar with (when you are already disadvantaged). Most of the new players do not become awestruck by skillful players; They are simply frustrated by being defeated by mechanisms they do not understand, or even know exist! They cannot see the rewards of learning under such difficult circumstances. That is why I think "newbie only servers", or ideally match making must be implemented to improve player retention by making the game more fun (for the non-masochistic majority of new players). :P
The minimum player count requirement is a major threshold for NS2 to be enjoyed. Most of the servers in Australia sit empty, while less than a handful are full at prime time. While games like CS can be played (and enjoyed) in 1v1 duels, NS2 is simply imbalanced or boring (depending on serious the players are) with less than 5 or 6 players per team.
Despite that, an Australian server will fill pretty quickly after a couple of players jump in to seed it. I suspect a decent number of .au players are just spending their time sitting in the queues for those few full servers.
That's the way it's balanced... for 6v6. You cant be a team in a 1v1, why would you play a team game then? ^^... BUT... promote the game in Astralia. I'm sure Australia is FULL of ppl that like challenges. Comes with the country, right?!
Personally, I don't know any game that "came back".
CS:GO
I don't know much about CS:GO. Did they fix something they massively screwed up before? If yes, it's somehow only a half-truth
But otherwise: Okay.
They do have a bigger marketing budget, though.
They went from 50,000 people at launch, getting shunned by the 1.6 AND Source communities, having a terrible playing game on their hands to having one of the most successful FPS games in history in under 2 years. The current concurrent playerbase is something around 275,000 people, and just shy of HALF A MILLION people watched the latest major that took place in Cologne.
I think its on a different scale, but I still think its comparable.
Not a fair comparison. A follow-up to what is basically the most popular MP game ever, released by an extremely well-known developer with a much bigger budget. They also addressed problems much earlier in the game's lifespan than NS2 currently is. And while CS does have a steep learning curve, it's much easier to grasp conceptually than NS2 (ie "kill all the other team" instead of "secure resources, harrass enemy resources, research new abilities, etc etc"), and it features fairly coventional FPS gameplay, so it doesn't deal with all the player retention problems NS2 deals with
I wasn't comparing it like that. Again, its a different scale, I get that. NS1 was popular though. See, CS:GO looks like that at the surface, but its actually incredibly deep when it scales into higher level play, as is NS2. Apart from accessibility, which is a problem for both games (CS:GO has other things to keep people interested while they suck) they are both more similar than you think, just on a different scale.
Seeding servers is a problem, but once those first few players are on they often end up full, especially the ones I play on.
Community helps, playing with lovely people makes it a pleasure to keep coming back for more. Most of the rage comms have left the game but this still remains a very team based game. The best games are played when most of the team have mics and can communicate quickly opportunities to win or gain a tactical advantage.
When is NS2 Combat due out, will be interesting to see how that effects the player base.
I think another thing is that ns2 requires quite a good pc. But the engine is quite improved since the first release. How many people would not have touched it again because they think there pc can't handle it?
And a free weekend soon would be nice (and lets go easy on them this time ).
A "bootcamp" would be awesome but yes it should be done with UWE quality which wouldn't be easy.
I almost wanna disagree my own post for suggesting this, but i fear the only way to have any meaningful surge of new players is to make the game free to play and promote that it's gone FTP properly, the quality of matches would be awry for a bit to say the least but there would be more of them to choose from.
I almost wanna disagree my own post for suggesting this, but i fear the only way to have any meaningful surge of new players is to make the game free to play and promote that it's gone FTP properly, the quality of matches would be awry for a bit to say the least but there would be more of them to choose from.
Let the CDT fix the rest of the game bugs, work a little more on performance/balance and re-launch NS2 as F2P.
I almost wanna disagree my own post for suggesting this, but i fear the only way to have any meaningful surge of new players is to make the game free to play and promote that it's gone FTP properly, the quality of matches would be awry for a bit to say the least but there would be more of them to choose from.
For the Webphone games it's ok for a PC game like NS2... i bet on failure. FTP never works for the desired player retention and never will. FTP means to have a deal with a announcer or something like that.
The FTP games are usually instant games you can play in the train or something similar. This economical model is fragile and already show signs of weakness. Read financial news. Far from being wonderful these days.
If we're really talking about getting a significant surge of players F2P might be the only way to go. When you're two years into a game's lifecycle, there won't be much more money to be made off of sales regardless.
If we were to do free you would have to wait awhile for an utmost stable patch. Maybe by the time patches are put out with significant time in between.
but why would UWE make it permanently FTP? at the end of the day a studio wants to make money, somehow. being nice to the fans in this way could help to push sales of other products, but theres not much else/similar UWE has to offer yet (that is compareable). maybe subnautica when it's done but it's hard to tell wether these games appeals to the same audience (although the gameplay is going to be very different, it might still convince with similar art and unconventional gameplay in general).
what else is there, commercials? don't think that would work.
donations maybe, but i think the hardcore fans already threw in their part during pre-order, beta, dropship, kodiac.
as they mentioned, the DLC-approach they took with kodiac was apparently barely worth it.
as for keeping players in ns2, maybe it's time for some cheap-a*s methods to keep people hooked, like minor rpg-ish features you can find in many games today, or achievements (that are not in conflict with playing the game properly).
something that gives people the feel "ok i got stomped, but it was not totally in vain as i'm one step closer to a higher goal". yes, there are currently levels, but they simply have no meaning other than accumulating a score in open-end manner (also, it seems that many people don't know that you can access hive by clicking on the level). needless to say, these rewards should not affect gameplay balance. at most you could unlock some stuff such as the ability to command (because lets face it, most rookies are ejected right away if they don't know the basics properly). it's hard to say what people could be getting other than that, maybe a single, self-upgrading level-badge every 5 or 10 levels, or some minor cosmetic detail to unlock. not entirely happy with those ideas but i cannot think of anything else that wouldn't disrupt gameplay or cause too much work.
but why would UWE make it permanently FTP? at the end of the day a studio wants to make money, somehow. being nice to the fans in this way could help to push sales of other products, but theres not much else/similar UWE has to offer yet (that is compareable). maybe subnautica when it's done but it's hard to tell wether these games appeals to the same audience (although the gameplay is going to be very different, it might still convince with similar art and unconventional gameplay in general).
what else is there, commercials? don't think that would work.
donations maybe, but i think the hardcore fans already threw in their part during pre-order, beta, dropship, kodiac.
as they mentioned, the DLC-approach they took with kodiac was apparently barely worth it.
so basically hats what they did with kodiac DLC? they mentioned it barely broke even and was financially not worth the effort. but granted, that involved a new map and the player-customization-menu so maybe it will work out somehow.
so basically hats what they did with kodiac DLC? they mentioned it barely broke even and was financially not worth the effort. but granted, that involved a new map and the player-customization-menu so maybe it will work out somehow.
they also gave half the proceeds to the mapper, and didn't really offer any great content. the skins are cool or whatever but there are better looking (imo) camo skins for free on the workshop. The skulk skin was kinda cool though.
throwing in Ice's classic fade or LMG models would be legit if he was interested though. I could sort of see running cosmetics the way Smite does it.. reskins are cheap, then there's the model changes with voice packs for a little more.
so basically hats what they did with kodiac DLC? they mentioned it barely broke even and was financially not worth the effort. but granted, that involved a new map and the player-customization-menu so maybe it will work out somehow.
they also gave half the proceeds to the mapper, and didn't really offer any great content. the skins are cool or whatever but there are better looking (imo) camo skins for free on the workshop. The skulk skin was kinda cool though.
throwing in Ice's classic fade or LMG models would be legit if he was interested though. I could sort of see running cosmetics the way Smite does it.. reskins are cheap, then there's the model changes with voice packs for a little more.
You can't actually use ANY skins on the workshop... unless it's purely for your enjoyment and you don't care that nobody can see them. I like being able to say that I enjoyed the game enough to support the devs, and show it with some nice skins.
I don't think its the complexity that turns people off, and I very much doubt training missions are going to convince anyone to come back or stay.
Great games live forever, you build it and they will come. Sadly NS2 just isn't great... very good but not great. The gunplay is weak, the movement is floaty, the netcode is off, the games are (surprisingly given the complexity of the game) repetitive, there's too much unreadable/confusing systems etc etc. I love the concept, themes, and promise behind the game but if I'm completely honest the games just aren't that satisfying or fun to play.
The first thing the game needs retain (or gain) players is to do the basic stuff hell of a lot better.
Secondly NS2 needs the community (not just the CDT) to nurture a culture of experimentation, participation and accepting change. NS2 has a lot of flaws and there's no real science to making and balancing such a complex game, yet post Balance mod the game has essentially festered in a pretty flawed state. There's too many opinions and not enough people experimenting with actually making the game better. experiment with Removing power-nodes, cysts, alien commanders...whatever! there's a million and one things we've argued about but they've never really tried... Even if you made the game less unbalanced at least it would be freshened up
Everything could quite easily be turned around, the CDT is doing great work, and there's still a fairly active passionate community. But I've also got some fears about the direction and options open for the game. The combat mode going standalone is only a good thing, and probably the only 'training mode' that'll have any actual value. But it presents NS2 becoming more set in its ways; you cannot just fundamentally change one and leave the other? Combat mode is built off NS2 and balanced around its mechanics.
Also with almost all the active modders on the CDT, and the CDT ran by the 'old boys clan' (not a dig just my take on things) I just don't see NS2 returning to the golden days when it was evolving and mutating all the time; now its just a flawed diamond getting polished with a rag and spit... and I personally just don't think that's going to cut it.
so basically hats what they did with kodiac DLC? they mentioned it barely broke even and was financially not worth the effort. but granted, that involved a new map and the player-customization-menu so maybe it will work out somehow.
they also gave half the proceeds to the mapper, and didn't really offer any great content. the skins are cool or whatever but there are better looking (imo) camo skins for free on the workshop. The skulk skin was kinda cool though.
throwing in Ice's classic fade or LMG models would be legit if he was interested though. I could sort of see running cosmetics the way Smite does it.. reskins are cheap, then there's the model changes with voice packs for a little more.
You can't actually use ANY skins on the workshop... unless it's purely for your enjoyment and you don't care that nobody can see them. I like being able to say that I enjoyed the game enough to support the devs, and show it with some nice skins.
well duh
i know other people can't see it, but it's still sort-of an alternative. If you're just looking to change the cosmetics of the game, it's available for free.. and some of the skins are cooler than what was included in the Kodiak pack.
Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with the Kodiak skins, I think it was rant that made them? They're definitely solid, good looking skins. Just not anything uniquely cool about them other than the fact other people in the server can see them.
so basically hats what they did with kodiac DLC? they mentioned it barely broke even and was financially not worth the effort. but granted, that involved a new map and the player-customization-menu so maybe it will work out somehow.
because the game was already dead when they released it
its hard to make money from a non existent player base
I think F2P some day would make a lot of sense. This would create u much bigger potential player base for when natural selection 3 comes some day.
I think would get more money with F2P and donations then they get now buy selling the game.
A free weekend might give the sales a little boost again but only a small % of those people stay.
About cosmetics, I think if marines start to look to different that it doesn't look like a team anymore.
Some more alien cosmetics would be nice.
Comments
1/More FreeWeekend(or hole week to let newbie learn)
2/Match Making like CSGO , easy to find game , lobby with friends or 5 member of team/clan match making
It might have taken roughly 2.5 months to whittle back down, but at present, the playercount is roughly the same as it was before the spike. Maybe an average of around 100 more.
Not a fair comparison. A follow-up to what is basically the most popular MP game ever, released by an extremely well-known developer with a much bigger budget. They also addressed problems much earlier in the game's lifespan than NS2 currently is. And while CS does have a steep learning curve, it's much easier to grasp conceptually than NS2 (ie "kill all the other team" instead of "secure resources, harrass enemy resources, research new abilities, etc etc"), and it features fairly coventional FPS gameplay, so it doesn't deal with all the player retention problems NS2 deals with
"The effort required to implement these changes is not worth the reward".
...
...
...
You mean the reward of the game actually being played? Look at counter strike global offenseive, heck, look at the original: http://www.steamcharts.com/app/10
If we got our arses back in place, sat down and fixed this core issue of early player retention and general game intuitiveness and enjoyment this game could EXPLODE in popularity.
I do not want to call anyone lazy here, I know you're putting a lot of effort in, but it's not just about working harder, it's about where you direct that effort. The core problems with this game need to be addressed. Those core problems (which have already been mentioned in the original post) of the game being far far far too brutal to new players.
And that's it, if we don't fix the core playability problem of NS2, it will never recover.
But the thing I want to make absolutely clear is: I WANT NATURAL SELECTION 2 TO NOT ONLY RECOVER, BUT TO EXPLODE IN POPULARITY. I want to see 10 000 people online at any one time, complex games can be successful, look at any MOBA like DOTA 2 or League of Legends, those games are incredibly complex, yet they manage. http://www.steamcharts.com/app/570
I don't play DOTA 2 because I can't be bothered learning it's complexities, yet I play NS2 which in my opinion is a far simpler game. So complexity is not the core issue, it's only a major contributor to the problem.
/rant
And yeah. The game is hard. Prepare thier butts. Tell them that you either can't even be bothered or you LOVE it. There are no lazy ppl in NS2, THATs for sure. We also got no fat chicks ^^
*cough* CS:GO *cough*
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2014/05/how-counter-strike-global-offensive-turned-itself-around/
The "pre game plus" mod is fun, only for a short while. Often, many players sit idle in the RR after a game, most likely AFK with other things on their hands, and minds.
With complex games like NS2, attempts to capture the attention of gamers usually results in all, or nothing. The steep learning curve isn't what is killing the player counts per se -- It's getting stomped by the "elite" players while trying to experience the game for the first time. It's being handicapped by being forced to play on the team you are not familiar with (when you are already disadvantaged). Most of the new players do not become awestruck by skillful players; They are simply frustrated by being defeated by mechanisms they do not understand, or even know exist! They cannot see the rewards of learning under such difficult circumstances. That is why I think "newbie only servers", or ideally match making must be implemented to improve player retention by making the game more fun (for the non-masochistic majority of new players). :P
Despite that, an Australian server will fill pretty quickly after a couple of players jump in to seed it. I suspect a decent number of .au players are just spending their time sitting in the queues for those few full servers.
They went from 50,000 people at launch, getting shunned by the 1.6 AND Source communities, having a terrible playing game on their hands to having one of the most successful FPS games in history in under 2 years. The current concurrent playerbase is something around 275,000 people, and just shy of HALF A MILLION people watched the latest major that took place in Cologne.
I think its on a different scale, but I still think its comparable.
I wasn't comparing it like that. Again, its a different scale, I get that. NS1 was popular though. See, CS:GO looks like that at the surface, but its actually incredibly deep when it scales into higher level play, as is NS2. Apart from accessibility, which is a problem for both games (CS:GO has other things to keep people interested while they suck) they are both more similar than you think, just on a different scale.
Community helps, playing with lovely people makes it a pleasure to keep coming back for more. Most of the rage comms have left the game but this still remains a very team based game. The best games are played when most of the team have mics and can communicate quickly opportunities to win or gain a tactical advantage.
When is NS2 Combat due out, will be interesting to see how that effects the player base.
I think another thing is that ns2 requires quite a good pc. But the engine is quite improved since the first release. How many people would not have touched it again because they think there pc can't handle it?
And a free weekend soon would be nice (and lets go easy on them this time
A "bootcamp" would be awesome but yes it should be done with UWE quality which wouldn't be easy.
Let the CDT fix the rest of the game bugs, work a little more on performance/balance and re-launch NS2 as F2P.
$$$
For the Webphone games it's ok for a PC game like NS2... i bet on failure. FTP never works for the desired player retention and never will. FTP means to have a deal with a announcer or something like that.
The FTP games are usually instant games you can play in the train or something similar. This economical model is fragile and already show signs of weakness. Read financial news. Far from being wonderful these days.
what else is there, commercials? don't think that would work.
donations maybe, but i think the hardcore fans already threw in their part during pre-order, beta, dropship, kodiac.
as they mentioned, the DLC-approach they took with kodiac was apparently barely worth it.
as for keeping players in ns2, maybe it's time for some cheap-a*s methods to keep people hooked, like minor rpg-ish features you can find in many games today, or achievements (that are not in conflict with playing the game properly).
something that gives people the feel "ok i got stomped, but it was not totally in vain as i'm one step closer to a higher goal". yes, there are currently levels, but they simply have no meaning other than accumulating a score in open-end manner (also, it seems that many people don't know that you can access hive by clicking on the level). needless to say, these rewards should not affect gameplay balance. at most you could unlock some stuff such as the ability to command (because lets face it, most rookies are ejected right away if they don't know the basics properly). it's hard to say what people could be getting other than that, maybe a single, self-upgrading level-badge every 5 or 10 levels, or some minor cosmetic detail to unlock. not entirely happy with those ideas but i cannot think of anything else that wouldn't disrupt gameplay or cause too much work.
Cosmetic. Micro. Transactions.
they also gave half the proceeds to the mapper, and didn't really offer any great content. the skins are cool or whatever but there are better looking (imo) camo skins for free on the workshop. The skulk skin was kinda cool though.
throwing in Ice's classic fade or LMG models would be legit if he was interested though. I could sort of see running cosmetics the way Smite does it.. reskins are cheap, then there's the model changes with voice packs for a little more.
You can't actually use ANY skins on the workshop... unless it's purely for your enjoyment and you don't care that nobody can see them. I like being able to say that I enjoyed the game enough to support the devs, and show it with some nice skins.
Great games live forever, you build it and they will come. Sadly NS2 just isn't great... very good but not great. The gunplay is weak, the movement is floaty, the netcode is off, the games are (surprisingly given the complexity of the game) repetitive, there's too much unreadable/confusing systems etc etc. I love the concept, themes, and promise behind the game but if I'm completely honest the games just aren't that satisfying or fun to play.
The first thing the game needs retain (or gain) players is to do the basic stuff hell of a lot better.
Secondly NS2 needs the community (not just the CDT) to nurture a culture of experimentation, participation and accepting change. NS2 has a lot of flaws and there's no real science to making and balancing such a complex game, yet post Balance mod the game has essentially festered in a pretty flawed state. There's too many opinions and not enough people experimenting with actually making the game better. experiment with Removing power-nodes, cysts, alien commanders...whatever! there's a million and one things we've argued about but they've never really tried... Even if you made the game less unbalanced at least it would be freshened up
Everything could quite easily be turned around, the CDT is doing great work, and there's still a fairly active passionate community. But I've also got some fears about the direction and options open for the game. The combat mode going standalone is only a good thing, and probably the only 'training mode' that'll have any actual value. But it presents NS2 becoming more set in its ways; you cannot just fundamentally change one and leave the other? Combat mode is built off NS2 and balanced around its mechanics.
Also with almost all the active modders on the CDT, and the CDT ran by the 'old boys clan' (not a dig just my take on things) I just don't see NS2 returning to the golden days when it was evolving and mutating all the time; now its just a flawed diamond getting polished with a rag and spit... and I personally just don't think that's going to cut it.
well duh
i know other people can't see it, but it's still sort-of an alternative. If you're just looking to change the cosmetics of the game, it's available for free.. and some of the skins are cooler than what was included in the Kodiak pack.
Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with the Kodiak skins, I think it was rant that made them? They're definitely solid, good looking skins. Just not anything uniquely cool about them other than the fact other people in the server can see them.
because the game was already dead when they released it
its hard to make money from a non existent player base
CS:GO on the other hand...
rolling in $$$$
I think would get more money with F2P and donations then they get now buy selling the game.
A free weekend might give the sales a little boost again but only a small % of those people stay.
About cosmetics, I think if marines start to look to different that it doesn't look like a team anymore.
Some more alien cosmetics would be nice.