I don't think the problem is ending the game... but how long it takes sometimes.
It only takes a long time if you're not focussing on the right things. If you're running into the hive while they still have 3 harvesters up, you're not putting pressure in the right place and will drag out the game longer.
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Ns1 was slower gameplay than ns2. With that in mind, maybe games that result in base raping can be ended more swifty and satisfyingly by the use of a super weapon instead of concedes.
Rarely does a team that is at their last hive have a chance to break out if they are locked in, resulting in that slow horrible death as the winning team slowly fortifies all exits.
Move that nuke a little closer to the enemy and away from base, you knock out most of their army while your army can (hopefully) counterattack the enemy with a blitzkrieg and do serious damage.
Nuking enemy armies requires considerable skill to work effectively, but it can be devastating by leaving them defenseless.
When the game is "over" another issue I see is that the winning team is working on getting their last upgrades(marines w3-a3, exo/jp--aliens lifeform upgrades, biomass, and the 3rd chamber), which should help them end the game, its a rare occasion where you see a winning team have all the possible upgrades and not making a major push on the last tech point. The issue could be spawning, the players you kill spawn right back where you are assaulting, marines can at least recycle some weapons, whereas aliens get skulks which still can hold their own against well teched marines(which is a good thing imo), and aliens can get carried by a few lifeforms just holding the marines at bay, sometimes even holding a hard to siege tech point.
"Does the xenocide "charge" make a sound for the marines to hear? Can't remember atm. If not, that'd help some."
Good point, it used to, but lately it hasn't, or is very quiet (maybe accidentally changed when the skulk movement sound changes were made?). Unless I'm just deaf.
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2014
It does make a charge up sound, usually pretty quiet, but you can't really outrun the skulk, and likely you will take damage. Your only saving grace is that the skulk forgets to use it, or you manage to kill the skulk. There is little you can do about it other than getting a hero ninja gate out there to tear down a hive.
Ns1 was slower gameplay than ns2. With that in mind, maybe games that result in base raping can be ended more swifty and satisfyingly by the use of a super weapon instead of concedes.
Rarely does a team that is at their last hive have a chance to break out if they are locked in, resulting in that slow horrible death as the winning team slowly fortifies all exits.
I wouldn't want a nuke in the actual game, but a mod would be nice as server operators could choose whether they want it or not (and players can choose whether they want to play on these servers or not).
Have it cost 200 res and unlock when every single upgrade has been acquired, and you have fully built hives/command-stations at every tech point (apart from the remaining one) and extractors/harvestors at every single res point (apart from the remaining CC/hive room). There should probably also be a condition where the marines must have IPs tied to more than 1 command station. The idea being that the nuclear option should only be allowed if a comeback simply isn't possible (within reason). Even with command-stations all around the map, a ninja attack unpowering or killing IPs could potentially win the game for aliens if another IP isn't secured. So since a win is still possible, a nuke shouldn't be allowed under these circumstances.
It should be more involved than simply nuking them from orbit and getting the gg at the click of a button, but should be about as effective as doing that. Perhaps beacon all units into the enemy hive/command-station room (respawning them there if they're dead) as jetpack exos or flying onoses. Although having said that, having silly things like flying onoses might disincentivize winning normally - which would be bad. It needs to be a last resort for a team that just can't strike the winning blow rather than not even try to win the old-fashioned way cause you wanna use the nuke.
I wouldn't want a nuke in the actual game, but a mod would be nice as server operators could choose whether they want it or not (and players can choose whether they want to play on these servers or not).
I think superweapon-content, well implementated by the CDT, could be just the thing to get playercounts of NS2 rising again.
Everybody (and esp. the casual player) loves a good big BOOM!!
Ns1 was slower gameplay than ns2. With that in mind, maybe games that result in base raping can be ended more swifty and satisfyingly by the use of a super weapon instead of concedes.
Rarely does a team that is at their last hive have a chance to break out if they are locked in, resulting in that slow horrible death as the winning team slowly fortifies all exits.
You could intorduce super weapons for pub and competitive mod could disable it. Also make concede fun in pub:
Let the winning time a certain amount of time to destroy the last chair of the opponent team. Saw that as a mod and seems great fun for both side. Furthermore it gives the winning team the initiative to push into the hive and end the game! Really hate pub games were you now it is over but alien/ marines take ages to kill the last base for whatever reason.
I hope that in the end this makes for a fun last defense or offensive for the loosing and winning team.
on a 40 man server xeno pretty much ends the game instantly
Prepare for server bashing.
If the xenocide made a louder noise it'd give rines a chance to hear a skulk charging around a corner and possibly get a few shots off, or kill the skulk.
Idk, honestly I don't find xenocide as an issue (in this context ), it helps end turtles and can help do DMG to the solo JP shooting the hive by himself and killing everything (cargo... grrr JP heaven).
Give the marines an endgame cyborg onos with a ton of health, give him turrets on his back and an arc cannon. Oh, and 30000 health. Shit, just send out a super exo... just shits and giggles, it'd be a lot of game hacking, animation, skins, etc... I just miss some of the silliness of ns1.
Please don't put it in the actual game. Let it just exist as a mod. Or at least have it be an option that server operators can choose to switch on or off.
My only problem with Xeno is that after a certain time if marines lose 1 base for just 1 minute then aliens simply drop hive, power build it with 2-3 gorges and end the game if the map doesn't support JP rushes very well. Thanks to Xeno being on 7 biomass, having the hive built quickly (which it usually is by this point) requires the marines to instantly counter-attack or rush a base with JP or lose the game straight up despite having full tech and likely, a good RT count. The prospects of reclaiming a 3rd TP are even worse on a map that doesn't favor jetpacks like Eclipse.
Xeno on biomass 8 would be the perfect balance imo, it gives marines a timing window after losing a base to counter-attack in time to recover and it forces aliens to constantly be defending for that period or scouting for rushes.
That being said, it's not a huge balance concern, it's just a personal gripe that I have coming from an RTS background. You don't instantly lose the game if you lose 1-2 bases in SC, it's a snowballing effect.
This of course only refers to 20+ servers, Xeno is futile on lower player counts.
SC or C&C doesn't have game ending abilities. Nukes are not game ending, Battlecruisers are not game ending, Carriers are not game ending. Even in Tib Wars, Rift or Ion Cannon was not game ending because it was so easy to counter it. I remember competitive Tib Wars never having superweapons but just having larger armies. RTS games end with superior economy, macro and micro skills, not by structures or superweapons. Sure if you can pull them off (which is usually extremely hard to do, you don't just build Carriers to end the game or you will just die yourself) then they can do a lot for you but they have far more negatives than positives.
If you have +2 bases over your opponent in SC2, you don't transition into Carriers or nukes, its pointless because you can just trade armies cost-inefficiently and still come out on top far more than mass carriers would. These game ending abilities would work a lot better if each race/side had free units that respawn indefinitely and can significantly affect the game.
Xeno is designed in such a way that it needs to be a game ender because even basic (free) roles can have a significant impact. Xeno needs to be OP but it is countered easily. Having 3 bases for marines IS the counter vs Xeno, not GLs or JPs, that is the reward for marines holding 3 base. An equally skilled marine team vs equally skilled alien team is almost always 3base vs 2base or a 4base map like Veil. Marines don't need a game ending ability or tech ESPECIALLY not on 3 base, that would destroy the game.
The only time xeno is a problem is on the larger servers. There really isn't a need for game ending weapons, that is what the concede button is for. And I hope nobody is seriously considering adding them.
We could do all of the above. Concede would be win or lose, but when one team concedes the other teams commander has the option to send it the super weapon. The super weapon is not a guaranteed win, but has a 99.9% chance for laughter just like win or lose does now. A commander does not have to send in the super weapon if the team wants to just bite/shoot hive like normal win or lose which is also not a guaranteed win.
The exact nature of what is and mechanics of the super weapon could be determined later. Bonus points if there is a few different options for concede super weapons on random or some what not.
2 things. Xeno costs you as a skulk absolutely nothing. There is no waste of res at all. So, you've got it quite backwards between combat and vanilla. Skulk upgrades dont cost anything. So you get your celerity, your aura, and your cara all for free, then blow yourself up in a group of rines. This costs them money for whatever weapon/accessory they had.
Yeah, because marines getting up to 30% more damage and 60 more armor, for free, isn't relevant. SO unfair.
Its not about being overpowered, part of it is what this is about is fun, this is a game after all. And I don't know about anyone else, but I do enjoy holding out against a team with increasing odds against you at times(like them controlling 4 tech points). Not sure a superweapon would make the game any more fun, save for an alternate condition instead of conceding ending the game immediately.
I like the idea of a 3 TP research that takes 2 min and gives each TP gets a effect (depending on team)
Marines: "Nanite Overcharge"
- Research available with 3 CCs, takes 3 min
- Every TP gets a "nanite field" that damages all alien buildings near the TP
-- Damage ramps up as time goes by (over say 3 min), preventing damage from being out-healed for ever
Aliens: "Contaminate" (would replace the current contaminate)
- Research available at Max Biomass for 3 hives; takes 2 min (to make up for biomass time)
- Infestation grows from all TPs (same size as a hive) and cannot be destroyed
-- Damage equal to 1 gorge bilebomb* starts after 1 min, and ramps up to 3 gorges bilebombing over 3 min (1 BB per min)
* The effect would be spaced so that the DoT does not stack
This effect goes away if a team loses a TP (in case of comebacks)
- Ends games that are over
- Ends game without the hopeless feeling of a Nuke-ish thing
- Gives comeback oportunity
- Makes contaminate useful, even with ARCs and Flamethrowers in base
Comments
It only takes a long time if you're not focussing on the right things. If you're running into the hive while they still have 3 harvesters up, you're not putting pressure in the right place and will drag out the game longer.
Rarely does a team that is at their last hive have a chance to break out if they are locked in, resulting in that slow horrible death as the winning team slowly fortifies all exits.
Move that nuke a little closer to the enemy and away from base, you knock out most of their army while your army can (hopefully) counterattack the enemy with a blitzkrieg and do serious damage.
Nuking enemy armies requires considerable skill to work effectively, but it can be devastating by leaving them defenseless.
Good point, it used to, but lately it hasn't, or is very quiet (maybe accidentally changed when the skulk movement sound changes were made?). Unless I'm just deaf.
I wouldn't want a nuke in the actual game, but a mod would be nice as server operators could choose whether they want it or not (and players can choose whether they want to play on these servers or not).
Have it cost 200 res and unlock when every single upgrade has been acquired, and you have fully built hives/command-stations at every tech point (apart from the remaining one) and extractors/harvestors at every single res point (apart from the remaining CC/hive room). There should probably also be a condition where the marines must have IPs tied to more than 1 command station. The idea being that the nuclear option should only be allowed if a comeback simply isn't possible (within reason). Even with command-stations all around the map, a ninja attack unpowering or killing IPs could potentially win the game for aliens if another IP isn't secured. So since a win is still possible, a nuke shouldn't be allowed under these circumstances.
It should be more involved than simply nuking them from orbit and getting the gg at the click of a button, but should be about as effective as doing that. Perhaps beacon all units into the enemy hive/command-station room (respawning them there if they're dead) as jetpack exos or flying onoses. Although having said that, having silly things like flying onoses might disincentivize winning normally - which would be bad. It needs to be a last resort for a team that just can't strike the winning blow rather than not even try to win the old-fashioned way cause you wanna use the nuke.
I think superweapon-content, well implementated by the CDT, could be just the thing to get playercounts of NS2 rising again.
Everybody (and esp. the casual player) loves a good big BOOM!!
You could intorduce super weapons for pub and competitive mod could disable it. Also make concede fun in pub:
Let the winning time a certain amount of time to destroy the last chair of the opponent team. Saw that as a mod and seems great fun for both side. Furthermore it gives the winning team the initiative to push into the hive and end the game! Really hate pub games were you now it is over but alien/ marines take ages to kill the last base for whatever reason.
I hope that in the end this makes for a fun last defense or offensive for the loosing and winning team.
Prepare for server bashing.
If the xenocide made a louder noise it'd give rines a chance to hear a skulk charging around a corner and possibly get a few shots off, or kill the skulk.
Idk, honestly I don't find xenocide as an issue (in this context
Give the marines an endgame cyborg onos with a ton of health, give him turrets on his back and an arc cannon. Oh, and 30000 health. Shit, just send out a super exo... just shits and giggles, it'd be a lot of game hacking, animation, skins, etc... I just miss some of the silliness of ns1.
I expect it in a week tops.
Can u imagine The badge? The content? The press? The influx? THE FRICKIN SUPER-WEAPON-MARINE SKINS!!!!
I see it reading back.
i am still serious about SW-updare btw. Its a good idea.
@Obraxis @wasabione
PutsITonTheList!!!
iknowwhereyourhouselives...
Xeno on biomass 8 would be the perfect balance imo, it gives marines a timing window after losing a base to counter-attack in time to recover and it forces aliens to constantly be defending for that period or scouting for rushes.
That being said, it's not a huge balance concern, it's just a personal gripe that I have coming from an RTS background. You don't instantly lose the game if you lose 1-2 bases in SC, it's a snowballing effect.
This of course only refers to 20+ servers, Xeno is futile on lower player counts.
@It's Super Effective!
SC or C&C doesn't have game ending abilities. Nukes are not game ending, Battlecruisers are not game ending, Carriers are not game ending. Even in Tib Wars, Rift or Ion Cannon was not game ending because it was so easy to counter it. I remember competitive Tib Wars never having superweapons but just having larger armies. RTS games end with superior economy, macro and micro skills, not by structures or superweapons. Sure if you can pull them off (which is usually extremely hard to do, you don't just build Carriers to end the game or you will just die yourself) then they can do a lot for you but they have far more negatives than positives.
If you have +2 bases over your opponent in SC2, you don't transition into Carriers or nukes, its pointless because you can just trade armies cost-inefficiently and still come out on top far more than mass carriers would. These game ending abilities would work a lot better if each race/side had free units that respawn indefinitely and can significantly affect the game.
Xeno is designed in such a way that it needs to be a game ender because even basic (free) roles can have a significant impact. Xeno needs to be OP but it is countered easily. Having 3 bases for marines IS the counter vs Xeno, not GLs or JPs, that is the reward for marines holding 3 base. An equally skilled marine team vs equally skilled alien team is almost always 3base vs 2base or a 4base map like Veil. Marines don't need a game ending ability or tech ESPECIALLY not on 3 base, that would destroy the game.
As for xeno, it's one of those things that are both underpowered and overpowered at the same time.
Sure concede is an option, just kinda unsatisfying for the winners, and also a slow bleed for the losers.
The exact nature of what is and mechanics of the super weapon could be determined later. Bonus points if there is a few different options for concede super weapons on random or some what not.
Marines: "Nanite Overcharge"
- Research available with 3 CCs, takes 3 min
- Every TP gets a "nanite field" that damages all alien buildings near the TP
-- Damage ramps up as time goes by (over say 3 min), preventing damage from being out-healed for ever
Aliens: "Contaminate" (would replace the current contaminate)
- Research available at Max Biomass for 3 hives; takes 2 min (to make up for biomass time)
- Infestation grows from all TPs (same size as a hive) and cannot be destroyed
-- Damage equal to 1 gorge bilebomb* starts after 1 min, and ramps up to 3 gorges bilebombing over 3 min (1 BB per min)
* The effect would be spaced so that the DoT does not stack
This effect goes away if a team loses a TP (in case of comebacks)
- Ends games that are over
- Ends game without the hopeless feeling of a Nuke-ish thing
- Gives comeback oportunity
- Makes contaminate useful, even with ARCs and Flamethrowers in base