Announcing the Community Development Team - Build 266 and possibly beyond?

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  • DarakianDarakian Members Join Date: 2004-09-03 Member: 31233Posts: 45 Fully active user
    edited May 2014
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Darakian wrote: »
    So if there's a push toward community development does that mean that the code is going to be open sourced (under whatever license)? How does one go about getting into the codebase and submitting code?

    Community development meaning certain volunteers from the community are granted access. NOT open source.
    OK, so how would community members contribute if they wanted to? I'm not going for anything big, but when I've got free time I wouldn't mind looking through code and submitting bug reports, algorithms, or whatever.
    I guess what I'm really looking for is a jumping off point from which one can help make ns2 better.

    Edit:
    Also, by 'open source' I just mean 'can I get at the source'. Not GPL or some other license.
    A.K.A. Yogurt
  • NarfwakNarfwak Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Posts: 3,785 admin
    Regnareb wrote: »
    simple_ wrote: »
    Narfwak wrote: »
    That being said most of the game already is open source. (...)

    Is it really open source? If so, with what license does it ship?
    It was my understanding, that the source is just "accessible" for people that have the game.
    Last time I checked it wasn't open-source, but only source-available, yes.
    My mistake. Thanks for the correction.
    UWE Playtest Lead
    Be the change you wish to see.
    Twitter
  • ezekelezekel Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Posts: 1,385 Advanced user
    edited May 2014
    Unexpected and very awesome news guys. Does this mean we can finally get that simple server browser/main menu that was a mod so very long ago? my god how I want that so badly!

    @turtsmcgurt oh you
  • _INTER__INTER_ Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Posts: 822 Advanced user
    I wish this community team the very best, I know you have the potential to drive this far.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
    ezekel
  • RockyMarcRockyMarc Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-11-24 Member: 69519Posts: 474 Fully active user
    Tiny surpises hey.. I don't like surprises! :)
    Nah can't wait for 266.
  • DecoyDecoy Members, Super Administrators, Playtest Lead, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159037Posts: 400 vanilla
    I have a question.
    What are the protocol to elect some mod to be official ?

    I'm not talking for me but for some mod that i think necessary. Like Name on minimap. Stuff like that. But i do understand some aren't interested some other would strongly disagree for this mod or that one. How would you / who, decide of that kind of things ?

    I'd probably suggest making a forum post. That would be the best way to let us know you wanted it. If we can't / won't, we'll likely give you a heads up as to why.
    UWE Playtest Co-Lead
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid ColoradoMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Posts: 2,155 mod
    I have a question.
    What are the protocol to elect some mod to be official ?

    I'm not talking for me but for some mod that i think necessary. Like Name on minimap. Stuff like that. But i do understand some aren't interested some other would strongly disagree for this mod or that one. How would you / who, decide of that kind of things

    If there is something so good it belongs in vanilla, we'll know...
    My mods --- Watermod collaboration with Feha
    For some reason, the instant you ask players to behave differently to be successful, they associate that with bad mapping. - KungFuDiscoMonkey
    Z5UIr2s.png
    Narfwak
  • RegnarebRegnareb Members, NS2 Playtester Join Date: 2007-08-26 Member: 62008Posts: 424 Advanced user
    Darakian wrote: »
    Also, by 'open source' I just mean 'can I get at the source'. Not GPL or some other license.
    Then say Source-available ;) , because Open-source means there is a licence granting some rights to other people.
    While a source-available do not have the same rights and is more closed (even though the sources are available).
    In NS1, no matter which class you are, you can feel really powerful and a threat to anyone, while being greatly threatened by anyone at the same time.
    In NS2, you just feel crappy against nearly everything, but at the same time, you feel as much crappy when the roles are reversed.

    This is what fun is about, feeling as an asset to the game, and feeling that you can change something.
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AUMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Posts: 515 mod
    Can you guys fix first person spec? Probably my biggest gripe with the game atm.
    kmgLocklearelodea
  • MaxAmusMaxAmus UKMembers, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24779Posts: 564 Advanced user
    Gorge Plushies. That is all.

    ENSL.org Ns2 League Ref/Caster -- Natural Selection 2 Playtester -- How to kill a fade East's One Man Wrecking Band My Twitch.tv Channel
  • killer monkeykiller monkey Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-02-26 Member: 70743Posts: 574 Advanced user
    This means there's a chance for that awesome ns1 rifle to get in somehow
    meatmachine
  • kmgkmg Members Join Date: 2008-02-28 Member: 63758Posts: 157 Fully active user
    sebb wrote: »
    Can you guys fix first person spec? Probably my biggest gripe with the game atm.

    i forgot about this, first person spec is so damn important. so so damn important.

    actually is there a mod that puts first person spec back in? i don't care if it lags people.
    Locklear
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, SpainMembers, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Posts: 4,177 Advanced user
    kmg wrote: »
    sebb wrote: »
    Can you guys fix first person spec? Probably my biggest gripe with the game atm.

    i forgot about this, first person spec is so damn important. so so damn important.

    actually is there a mod that puts first person spec back in? i don't care if it lags people.
    It's still in vanilla, the NSL mod is the one that disables that.
    Pelargir
  • PelargirPelargir Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Posts: 1,199 mod
    edited May 2014
    As far as I know, first person is enable on public servers. There's only third person on NSL Modded servers, but I don't really know if that lag still occurs actually. But yeah, that would be nice to fix this lag, third person isn't really interesting as spectator or even to cast NSL matches. Duties unclear for NSL Referees because of that by the way.

    I know Dragon told me he didn't change that on the mod because first person still causes lag, I have no idea if that's right or not.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Posts: 1,337 Advanced user
    Being one of the people to first discover the lag issue.. I think that it's pretty simple to test.

    First person spec someone with two other people in the server. Alt + tab.. then your ping shoots up and the person you're spectating starts jittering.. if that still happens then it's still bugged.
    "If great visuals brings players in, great gameplay gets them to stay." - Valve
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    Alt-tabbed specs weren't the only cause. High ping specs had a similar effect. But yes, the problem still exists.
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AUMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Posts: 515 mod
    Do we even know what conditions this issue happens under? Is there a threshold of ping that you can be under to use FPspec? Is is ok to use with < 100 ms or not?

    It's pretty interesting how everyone screamed so hard for FPspec and then was like meh after it got disabled for all the comp games lol ;)

  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    Don't get me wrong, I would love to have first person back. Aside from it always being 'a little off,' it was a great and entertaining feature. As for an actual threshold, I am not sure. We discovered it during a drill session one day and reported it but never really took our analysis farther than that. If I remember correctly it has to do with how the first person system was coded for specs and would take close to a complete re-work of the code to fix it.

    At this point, I doubt it will be a high priority... but if someone can make a fix for it, I am sure we will all be grateful.
    BeigeAlertSeb
  • Maxx11_v2.0Maxx11_v2.0 Members Join Date: 2012-11-18 Member: 172221Posts: 274
    Great move by UWE. Don't think I've ever seen it done quite like this before, where the game is pretty much about to become an official mod of itself. Its a strange place to be, but an interesting one. I've ended my NS2 run just short of 1k hours but I find myself revisiting the forums anyway. Says something about the game I suppose.

    Good luck, its going to be a bumpy ride, but I look forward to seeing what you fine folks come up with.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    edited May 2014
    While i don't know the details or the actual code and am just speculating:

    I believe first person spec can be done in a way that it's not any more taxing on the server network wise (since each spectator is still considered a player slot given the bandwidth required) and yet provide a smooth first person spec experience. (instead of the jittery, laggy, broken one we have now)
    If you delay the data being sent, and make it so its not exactly "real time" or instant, then i believe prediction and interpolation could do the rest of the work.

    I've been told that it is already predicting and interpolating, and that the issue is the 30 fps 20hz limit imposed on it, but to increase it would cause further strain on the network traffic that is already congested... so why not just delay the stream and basically retell history by smoothing out between the data points? I don't see a problem with having a 1 or 2 second delay even if it means a smooth viewing experience worthy of FP spec.

    I could be way out to lunch here with this suggestion, though..
    Post edited by IronHorse on
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    SantaClaws
  • simbasimba Members Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151628Posts: 191 Fully active user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    While i don't know the details or the actual code and am just speculating:

    I believe first person spec can be done in a way that it's not any more taxing on the server network wise (since each spectator is still considered a player slot given the bandwidth required) and yet provide a smooth first person spec experience. (instead of the jittery, laggy, broken one we have now)
    If you delay the data being sent, and make it so its not exactly "real time" or instant, then i believe prediction and interpolation could do the rest of the work.

    I've been told that it is already predicting and interpolating, and that the issue is the 30 fps limit imposed on it, but to increase it would cause further strain on the network traffic that is already congested... so why not just delay the stream and basically retell history? I don't see a problem with having a 1 or 2 second delay even if it means a smooth viewing experience worthy of FP spec.

    I could be way out to lunch here with this suggestion, though..

    Delaying it from being sent won't fix much? Are you describing a sort of "replay" system? If we don't have the first person data arriving at the same time as the rest of the network data about the players, then it won't mean much. Seeing a "replay" of only what the marine did without seeing the opponents he was shooting or his player location at the time is worthless.
  • kmgkmg Members Join Date: 2008-02-28 Member: 63758Posts: 157 Fully active user
    why don't we just make it so the mod only forces you into third person if your ping is greater than like 100? i assume the issue with alt-tabbing is because your ping always shoots up to like 250.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Posts: 1,337 Advanced user
    Yes, I mentioned alt tabbing as it is just one method of having high ping while spectating. The high ping is the core issue.
    "If great visuals brings players in, great gameplay gets them to stay." - Valve
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    It's already available in pubs KMG. There is no reason to risk any game interference in a comp environment, so it will stay disabled. It's already hard enough to track people like Packetloss-zebroe and the like.
    Seb
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    simba wrote: »
    Delaying it from being sent won't fix much? Are you describing a sort of "replay" system? If we don't have the first person data arriving at the same time as the rest of the network data about the players, then it won't mean much. Seeing a "replay" of only what the marine did without seeing the opponents he was shooting or his player location at the time is worthless.
    Why? If the laggy, jerky symptoms are a result of improperly predicting in real-time? (that is my assumption)
    I am not talking about 30 seconds here.. i am thinking 1000 ms/ 1 second.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Posts: 1,554 mod
    IronHorse wrote: »
    While i don't know the details or the actual code and am just speculating:

    I believe first person spec can be done in a way that it's not any more taxing on the server network wise (since each spectator is still considered a player slot given the bandwidth required) and yet provide a smooth first person spec experience. (instead of the jittery, laggy, broken one we have now)
    If you delay the data being sent, and make it so its not exactly "real time" or instant, then i believe prediction and interpolation could do the rest of the work.

    I've been told that it is already predicting and interpolating, and that the issue is the 30 fps limit imposed on it, but to increase it would cause further strain on the network traffic that is already congested... so why not just delay the stream and basically retell history? I don't see a problem with having a 1 or 2 second delay even if it means a smooth viewing experience worthy of FP spec.

    I could be way out to lunch here with this suggestion, though..

    IIRC, from what BrianC told me, first person spectator is a bit of a hack - you do not get to see the game from the POV of the spectated player. Instead, you basically just place the camera at where your client interpolates where the spectated player is and looks, which means it gets updated at 20Hz (network update rate) rather than the move rate (30 Hz).

    Getting it right (ie, true first person spectating) would require a fair bit of engine work - you would need to send the ACTUAL move from the server to the specator and use it as input at the appropriate time.

    Not impossible, but not really easy either.
    Member of CDT, Senior Spark Engine Hacker
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    @matso‌
    Can't those 20hz updates be smoothed out / interpolated further? (forsaking the time it's delivered to the viewer)
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
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