NS2 Competitive Mod - Balance Mod Part II

ZeframZefram Join Date: 2004-05-11 Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer
Originally posted on the front page of the NSL.

The list of proposed changes for the second iteration is massive and much too long for a single news post. We're hoping to release a live update with these changes in a week or so. Here's a link to the proposed changes and the abridged intro from the balance team.

Some of the changes currently in the live balance mod can be considered emergency triage. Some (like the alien tech tree cost reductions, the fade blink energy reduction) were bandaids with the goal of immediately improving some of the most glaring balance issues.

The patch notes here can be intimidating, but it’s important to consider that the overall goal of this patch is to further streamline and hopefully eliminate many of those previous glaring issues in a much more in-depth manner, opening up more choices in gameplay, and addressing some previously frustrating gameplay mechanics.
Feedback and suggestions on these patchnotes are encouraged, but please keep in mind that if you do have a suggestion or criticism, you need to provide well thought out reasonings for it. Just saying “this is bad” or “add/change this” without the reasoning behind it will not get your ideas the consideration or respect they deserve.


Proposed changes.


Your participation is crucial.
Please read carefully, consider, and comment.
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Comments

  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold
    Good work for the most part, but I'm worried about the fade damage change. If a fade does full damage against unarmoured structures, two fades can absolutely TRASH a phase gate without any skulk/lerk support.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    No, because phase gates would have armor.
  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold
    Oops, should have read the entire document.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Interesting. We'll have to see how 1 gorge + 4 fades pans out, though: bile bomb to decimate the building armour rapidly, then the fades can kill everything even if the fatty has died.

    Yay for separating out specific upgrades!
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    I'm pretty sure bile bomb hits structures with a set structure damage modifier that doesn't take into account armor values. If teams do choose to try a 4 fade ball again, you better have all the res down before you do so. Four fades on a fully built extractor do about the same amount of damage as a single skulk until the armors gone.
  • ball2hiball2hi Join Date: 2012-10-22 Member: 163128Members
    Won't allowing Fades to do full-damage to (unarmored) structures cause Fade balls again? 4 Fades + 1 Gorge(Bilebomb) would be atrocious.

    Going down the list of things...

    2. Egg drops should not be completely removed. Gorge eggs should still be allowed, and are quite strategic I'd say. It's one thing to lose your Fade and be given an egg and say, "Here, sorry you got killed. 2nd chance?" right away. A Gorge egg would allow you drop tunnels (Cheaper now, 2PRes) without hurting their current PRes as much. Leaving for more strategy.

    3. This looks like a great change, but from the current cost it seems the Aliens will have to dedicate more res for research again? 15 Leap/25 Xeno, 40 res; I don't remember Skulk upgrades costing this much before the tech res change. Not to mention, we're getting closer and closer to creating a different game from public games which was mentioned as an issue because it would alienate future players from joining since they have to relearn everything again.

    4. Bonewall is an incredible Alien commander mechanic that (If used offensively) can change the tide of battle. Adding a long wind-up animation would ruin that, and make it more difficult for life-forms to escape. Plus, cysts were nerfed in their health. If players are worried about getting bone-walled then destroy the damn cyst. No more bone-wall.

    5. I never knew about this. I guess this was added because they thought faster Skulks would have a harder time aiming?

    7. I'm unsure about the change, but it looks good. As it stands I almost never get to deal with a gorge that has bile-bomb mid/late game lately. If I do, we're usually about to lose anyways.

    8c. Reducing web cost to 0 would make gorging up areas near impossible to get into unless one wants to (riskly) purchase a 25 res flamethrower (which would probably be focused by life-forms and quickly loss). Once cleared, the Gorge would just put the webs back up with no consequence as if nothing happened. However, leaving it at 1 res cost would also mean no one would want to touch it. Honestly, I'm not sure there is a way to make webs used more unless you allow some way other than a 25 res flamethrower to clear them. Maybe cluster grenades can destroy them, or nerve gas?

    9. Don't reduce the time. It's already annoying to be an umbra bot as it is. Radius is understandable though.

    10. No, no no no no no no"

    11. I'm not sure how metabolize work(s/ed)? I don't think I'd be okay with any higher-lifeform being able to regen in a pinched scenario without the use of crags/drifters/regen upgrade. Reduce the cost of Shifts from 13 back to 10 and reduce their total health cost. This would allow more Shifts to be used but also be easier to take out since they'd be vital structures in allowing Fades to regen energy.

    12a. Yes.
    12b. Yes.
    12c. Yes.
    12d. No. If at the very least, 95 damage. I'm not sure why this is an issue though. Are people not buying welders? Nerfing gorge bile-bombs will remedy this issue even more.

    15. Fucking, yes.

    16. What was wrong with the double-jump? People too slow to press space-bar twice?

    17. Define combat. A grenade shouldn't be usable in close-range combat, it should be punishing.

    19. This looks good overall, but would still be too big an investment against 0res webs.

    20. Yes.

    21a-d. Wouldn't this make Bile-bomb incredibly OP on structures then?

    22. I don't mind this, but guarding a weapon on the ground from a respawning marine should already guarantee they won't get it back.
  • MigeMige Join Date: 2005-03-19 Member: 45796Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I have a way better idea: 13, remove the whole nanoshield
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Webs are still hive 3.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    hmm this goes from balance tweaks to making sort of another game.. I am very wary of certain points.

    1b ) I do not believe aliens need even easier tunnels. They are already easy enough to use and should be a high risk/win in my opinion instead of a low risk/highwin scenario.

    3) while I like the idea it is going far away from whats currently live, making sort of a 2nd game.

    4) never as a receiving marine felt this to be a problem. But I guess thats personal opinion. But I dont mind the kham having some influence minus drifters. I wonder if marines wont see this to easily.

    10) another rather big change but I wonder how it will play out.

    11) removing and adding abilities? Really? This is far from the advertised balance changes earlier in the season. Yes I can see the logic and yes perhaps it may be needed but allow small changes and where do we end?
    Your reasoning is also flawed. If its redundant its not a 'cheap ability making fades to hard to kill'. Also its one of the fades best ways to catch jetpack when combined with blink.
    But I do mainly think we are moving to much from the standard game itself.


    rest of the list I have less issues with but it makes me very weary of what the future shall bring.
  • KanehKaneh Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174783Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Only gripe i have is metabolize. Don't like how it'll introduce a completely different skillset from vanilla fade.

    The rest is just cost balance changes and tweaking things to be more skill based which is good.
  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    ball2hi wrote: »
    Not to mention, we're getting closer and closer to creating a different game from public games which was mentioned as an issue because it would alienate future players from joining since they have to relearn everything again.

    Honestly, I see no reason that changes like this shouldn't be put into the game. Maybe not these changes exactly as they are still WiP, but the last balance change worked well. Gibs Gorge Hut was running the comp changes, and it worked fine for all of the pubness. The only thing you can say is some of the larger servers would not work well with these changes, but half of them already run a custom balance work of their own... and who the hell cares about servers with more than 20 people on them anyways.
  • HivelordHivelord Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17567Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Hopefully there will be some pub servers with the mod, looking forward to playing it.
  • simbasimba Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151628Members
    edited April 2014
    Nerfin' my bone wall. Favorite khamm skill :(

    These are a lot of sweeping changes, and while I appreciate the reasoning being provided behind the changes, I would much more appreciate smaller incremental changes.

    As for opinion:
    2. see 4.
    4. Can we see khammander p-res returned? Also, removing commander "reactionary" or "skill-based" abilities really makes me kind of sad. Instead of bone walls being precise, well timed executions that can save life forms from a cat-pack/jetpack trap or split an entrenched marine push located on alien infestation, they're now more randomized and removed from my control. I can place one, but in the 2 seconds following it actually taking place, hope that it doesn't screw my team over makes me think it will be very unuseful and maybe even dangerous. Not to mention I don't see it being a useful tool in countering catpacks/jetpacks chasing life forms down. I have never heard anyone complain that bone wall is ghey or lame or buggy, and it was seen as one of the dangers of engaging on infestation. The mechanics in place to prevent it becoming a huge problem are already in place: remove cysts, decent cooldown. What's left for me as khamm that's time-sensitive and really an engagement changer? drifter enzyme? It's pretty much standard in the mid-late game to have drifter support on all engagements.

    But the marine commander: He/she has the capability to completely make or break a fight. You engage a marine with no med/ammo/cat/nano support, generally it's pretty easy, or MUCH easier. The difference between a good commander and a bad one is drastic and can be seen. But if the commander is good, times medpacks really well, even cat packs/nanoshield appropriately, he becomes a game changer and engagement changer alone. He alone makes a HUGE impact. The alien khamm is more of a joke in comparison. It is like making med packs have an animation as the drop from the sky on a parachute. It probably won't be in the right place and the right time by the time it lands.

    Hey team, sorry that I can't really make a substantial impact on this game. All of my abilities were animating in and likely dated and no longer useful for the engagement. I guess my argument is that alien khammander is not fitting well with the game. It's a twitch based shooter right? Why remove my twitch based RTS abilities that need apply in real time to make or break an engagement? If I'm playing well, reacting in a timely manner, and knowledgeable about my placement and timing, shouldn't I make a reasonable impact like the marine comm?

    How difficult would it be to instead make the bone wall not capture player but bump them to the side they're closest to?


    12.d) I love this. Now as commander I can maybe keep my marine alive without armor for a little bit longer, especailly if that player does the right movement to avoid a swing or two from the onos.

  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    It shouldn't be a full 2 second wind up time. We still want bonewall to be useful, the way it is now (being instant) is too effective at destroying marine pressure in early/mid game. We had a few options: move them to hive2, reduce their hp greatly (and scale with biomass perhaps), or leave them alone and give them a short wind-up time. The latter seemed like the best solution, for now.

    None of this is set in stone of course. This is why the patch needs in-game testing, if bonewall turns out to be too weak, we will try out other options.

    I think for now the wind-up animation is going to be 1 second, though. (not 2)
  • simbasimba Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151628Members
    rantology wrote: »
    It shouldn't be a full 2 second wind up time. We still want bonewall to be useful, the way it is now (being instant) is too effective at destroying marine pressure in early/mid game. We had a few options: move them to hive2, reduce their hp greatly (and scale with biomass perhaps), or leave them alone and give them a short wind-up time. The latter seemed like the best solution, for now.

    None of this is set in stone of course. This is why the patch needs in-game testing, if bonewall turns out to be too weak, we will try out other options.

    I think for now the wind-up animation is going to be 1 second, though. (not 2)

    I will enjoy testing a lot of these changes out, and while I can definitely see your concern of the bone wall being a little "too" effective and a little bit too much of a game changer, I just wanted to bring up my concerns of the state of alien khamm being really lame and this change potentially making it lamer.

    I am open to the biomass affecting the HP sort of change. If the wind-up is significantly short enough to remain useful, great. I was just informed that it might be the same as the bile blob (whatever it's called), in which I feel would make it a little silly.

  • ball2hiball2hi Join Date: 2012-10-22 Member: 163128Members
    CyberKun wrote: »
    Honestly, I see no reason that changes like this shouldn't be put into the game. Maybe not these changes exactly as they are still WiP, but the last balance change worked well. Gibs Gorge Hut was running the comp changes, and it worked fine for all of the pubness. The only thing you can say is some of the larger servers would not work well with these changes, but half of them already run a custom balance work of their own... and who the hell cares about servers with more than 20 people on them anyways.
    The reason it worked fine in Gib's Gorge Hut is because the changes were just minor numbers. This next patch seeks to introduce a few new mechanics. A delayed bone-wall(Which I currently would loathe), different teching path(Suggested res too expensive btw), a new Fade ability(Pinched Fades healing themselves in vents).

    Sure, it's a small list of things but where do we draw the line? 3 extra mechanics, 6, 12, 50? The more mechanics added means a bigger barrier between pubs/comp. Meaning people will become more timid in trying competitive. People shouldn't have to relearn the game because of new mechanics. They should have to relearn the game because they're facing better players and need a change of playstyle.
  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    ball2hi, I wasn't suggesting that servers should adapt this patch.

    I'm saying if the changes all end up working, they should be default. I know the currently suggested changes are not the best, but the idea is sound.
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2014
    Changes look fine, but I would reduce the alien commander role even more and make it a hotseat for anyone to jump in to do necessary things. With this, I would just have abilities automatically with biomass instead of targetted research as this will just result in, and we have seen this being the case for 2 years regardless of whether it is BT or pre-BT, that some abilities are more desirable than others and will always be researched first.

    The NS1 system was superior where getting a hive immediately unlocked the abilities for that hive, which meant that life forms would know what they were getting, could practice with them as they consistently appear and we could therefore actually know what a life form is capable of at various stages of the game which is easier to balance. Just use the biomass system instead for this.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited April 2014
    Scatter wrote: »
    Changes look fine, but I would reduce the alien commander role even more and make it a hotseat for anyone to jump in to do necessary things. With this, I would just have abilities automatically with biomass instead of targetted research as this will just result in, and we have seen this being the case for 2 years regardless of whether it is BT or pre-BT, that some abilities are more desirable than others and will always be researched first.

    The NS1 system was superior where getting a hive immediately unlocked the abilities for that hive, which meant that life forms would know what they were getting, could practice with them as they consistently appear and we could therefore actually know what a life form is capable of at various stages of the game which is easier to balance. Just use the biomass system instead for this.

    Out of curiousity, are you suggesting this because having an alien comm in NS2 is irrecoverably broken or just because there wasn't an alien comm in NS1 and that worked fine?
    I don't see any real problem with the alien comm as it is. The alien tech tree is certainly shit, but I feel that attempting to fix this by minimizing the responsibilities of the alien comm is a step in the wrong direction.

    In regard to turning alien comm into a hot-seat, I'd do what @simba suggested; and remove some of the commander's p.res restrictions. At the very least, remove the 1 min delay on p.res flow after leaving the chair/hive.

    Oh and a ditto to @ball2hi 's concerns about managing the extent of change within this mod. Showing discretion when making changes and trying to minimize the perceived difference between comp & pub play is important.

  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    Not out of sentimentalism, mouse, and i did explain reasonably why I wanted what I suggested so I am not sure why you're trying to peg that on me:/ Primarily, a lot of the bad gameplay is a result if trying to give the com a more meaningful role which includes annoying intrusion via drifter abilities and bad ability unlock. Happy with release build commander role with my suggested ability changes.

  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    You did explain yourself well. But as you know, the alien comm has been grumbled about for quite a while. Often with the automation/removal of the role and a return to something closer to NS1 touted as a solution. Sometimes this is accompanied by robust reasoning, sometimes it isn't.
    So, after having seen a similar argument made by other NS1 vets a number of times, I was honestly just curious (though, rereading my post, that line does come across as a bit of a snipe at you =\, my bad).

    Back on topic: There's one thing that I don't understand. Why is the interference from the alien comm so much less tolerable than the interference from the marine comm's med & ammo spam?
  • nezznezz Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174712Members
    becasue marine comm don't have bullshit immersion & extra thing soaking bullets.
  • ball2hiball2hi Join Date: 2012-10-22 Member: 163128Members
    edited April 2014
    nezz wrote: »
    becasue marine comm don't have bullshit immersion & extra thing soaking bullets.
    Catalyst pack...
    Nano armor...
    Not being limited by stupid cyst/drifter system to use any of it's abilities.

    Let's not forget, marine commanders have the ability to drop a shotgun for 20 tres. The counter for 40 res life-form Fades.

  • nezznezz Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174712Members
    edited April 2014
    Both directly aid marines in combat. Not completely stop aliens in there trakcs & unable to move/see

    Let's not forget how powerfull hallucinations with onos in the team is. Let me soak another 20 shotgun blasts into it. I guess we need a hard counter for every counter.

    I"ll be happy to see bonewall & cyst popping removed completely with the potential of adding something else.
  • b1.seb1.se Stockholm, Sweden Join Date: 2012-09-17 Member: 159734Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    edited April 2014
    -1 bonewall animation (1 sec).

    Open to test it, but imo it's not OP as you say. In what situations? Like 4 marines rushing hive vs umbra/fades/bonewall?
    I'd rather see the umbra change and other factors than removing from the commanders skill. Adding delay isn't a good nerf imo.

    So a chased onos would basicly have to, either get lucky on the right side of the bonewall and live or get trapped and die.
    All depending on the 1 sec delay added or he would have to hope that the catpacked marines running behind him aren't close enough to get passed the bonewall with him.

    Could you please present a more detailed reasoning for changing this than "...you are instantly stuck inside of a bonewall, which is frustrating and can feel buggy...".
    I get that it's kind of frustrating to get stuck inside it (if that even was intended), but in that case why not make it a non-player structure? Let the wall push the marine to the side.
    I fail to see how it is too effective early/mid game to prevent marine pressure. If it was, wouldnt everyone be abusing it?
  • ball2hiball2hi Join Date: 2012-10-22 Member: 163128Members
    nezz wrote: »
    Both directly aid marines in combat. Not completely stop aliens in there trakcs & unable to move/see

    Let's not forget how powerfull hallucinations with onos in the team is. Let me soak another 20 shotgun blasts into it. I guess we need a hard counter for every counter.

    I"ll be happy to see bonewall & cyst popping removed completely with the potential of adding something else.
    Nano-armor might as well be a bone-wall when a marine is getting medpacked.

    The Drifter abilities need to have cooldowns, not with each other of course but unlike Enzyme and Mucous, spamming hallucinations is a real fucking pain. Sure, there is a cool-down on how each player being hallucinated but when you got all 5 of your team attacking somewhere, you can keep 2 hallucinations up all the time. As soon as two are cleared, here's another two.
  • vartijavartija Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60193Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited April 2014
    2. Remove egg drops completely
    I don't like removing onos egg drops. Aliens with 3hives up and lot's of tres at hand should be able to sink their extra res to something and just be allowed to end the game. Only the lifeform cost reduction might make it too hard for aliens to finish turtling marines.

    6. Regeneration- Increase regen value
    The increase seems bit excessive. I personally find playing regenfade pretty strong if marines are not that great aimers. This could hurt lower divisions.

    12. d) Reduce Gore damage to 90
    If I'm not wrong, onos can only instakill unarmored marine with charge. I would not want to make onos less effective against heavily armored marines and instead check the charge multiplier or what ever defines that damage.

    14. Reduce AA cost from 30 → to 20 res
    I'm not against recuding AA cost as way to better responding pve but I would likewise increase proto cost by 10. It's not the research cost that makes the jetpacks more risky counter to onoses compared to catpacks but the combination of pres costs. Also recusing tres jetpack cost should be considered.

    From GL jetpack rush perspective I see no reason to making it any stronger. This would also support the proto cost increase.

    18. Reduce auto-explosion trigger radius on Pulse Grenade
    I would like to see same happen to mines. Mines should not keep the base fully safe against single skulks but this should at least force the commander to jump out to clean the pesky skulk (so he has to move an probably die to mine). Also this would reduce dyeing to badly based random mines which you don't even see prior to death.



    Now, this is quite a few changes. Is this what zefram got approved of by almost all teams? If this keeps on it makes the season feel like a joke. Back to beta. Also when doing lifeform specific changes training this lifeform on public becomes considerably less viable if the feeling of that lifeform is not the same.


  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    edited April 2014
    @b1.se This change seems to be under the most unanimous scrutiny by most commanders I've spoken with. The issue previously was in part that you could get bonewall relatively early with the reduced biomass costs, which made marine pressure more difficult in certain areas. Often when a good bonewall goes up, aliens in ambush positions can clear the pressure with relative ease- this was seen as an issue for the early/mid game. Saving lifeforms from being cut or chased is not our intended target here, would be nice if that could stay.

    It is likely this change will be revised in the near future, but we would like to see at least a few games with the wind-up animation to be sure. A likely alternative is dropping the base wall down to 300 or 400 hp, and making it scale ~150hp per biomass so that it is not so strong in early/mid game.

    @Vartija Gore does 200 structural damage, it will hit players for 100 damage. Charge has not had a damage modifier on it for some time.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited April 2014
    From our convo in mumble, the best option would be to keep bonewall instant cast and have its HP scale with biomass. I don't even feel testing the wind up animation is worth it.
  • simbasimba Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151628Members
    rantology wrote: »
    @b1.se This change seems to be under the most unanimous scrutiny by most commanders I've spoken with. The issue previously was in part that you could get bonewall relatively early with the reduced biomass costs, which made marine pressure more difficult in certain areas. Often when a good bonewall goes up, aliens in ambush positions can clear the pressure with relative ease- this was seen as an issue for the early/mid game. Saving lifeforms from being cut or chased is not our intended target here, would be nice if that could stay.

    It is likely this change will be revised in the near future, but we would like to see at least a few games with the wind-up animation to be sure. A likely alternative is dropping the base wall down to 300 or 400 hp, and making it scale ~150hp per biomass so that it is not so strong in early/mid game.

    @Vartija Gore does 100 structural damage, it will hit players for 100 damage. Charge has not had a damage modifier on it for some time.

    The more I thought about it, I think lessening the HP and scaling with biomass is a good change. Because at the moment, khamms can rush bio 3 relatively early in the game (since it's cheap and lame is less important to invest in) and cysts grow a lot faster, meaning bone wall will be seen early and often as the khamm meta.

    I'm thinking generally roughly 2 shotgun shells. If it's targeted and destroyed quickly, it's done it's job in soaking bullets and buying a slight timing advantage for aliens.
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