The Future of NS2 Competitive Play & Balance Mod

ZeframZefram Join Date: 2004-05-11 Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer
edited March 2014 in Competitive Play
I made a post on the NSL Forums asking for feedback. Thought it would need more exposure.

ensl.org/topics/1080

For bringing us NS1 and NS2, I want to thank UWE for bringing us over a decade's worth of enjoyment. Without their talents and resources, we would not have had the prodigious history of competitive play or even this community. Just look at this website, over a ten years old and still kicking. Their finger into our free time can not be underestimated. That said, as a company, their focus needs to evolve. With recent patches becoming fewer and less substantial, it appears that UWE's attention is primarily being focused more and more on Subnautica. Although, I love NS2, I can understand their decisions to work on the next thing and do not fault them at all.

I'm a playtester and a maptester, but my primary joy and work for NS2 has and always will be the competitive community. You are my first love and I will always do my best to ensure that your time with the NSL is fun and satisfying. That's our mission statement:

"The vision of the Natural Selection League (NSL) is to gather Natural Selection 2 players for international organized play. At its very core, we would simply like games to be played, in the hopes that this fosters tangible and meaningful relationships among its participants. We realize that its participants span the range of commitment, skill, and time zones and will do everything possible to cater to everyone’s needs and create the most enjoyable experience."

All this said, we look towards the future, next season, the seasons after that. If this community is to stay, and not just be sustained on life support, we need to do something to keep this game fresh, engaging, and fun. My proposal is to created a competitive balance mod for our league. It would hopefully be a mod fleshed out with useful and thoughtful changes, bugfixes, etc. A mod that is implemented into Season 5.

I've already started approaching people to contribute to his mod, but we'd like the community's opinion. Mostly, how do we approach creating this mod? Who would and how we decide on the changes? What sort of changes do we need?

If there's enough interest in this kind of mod, we'll post a detailed outline or what may be to come. Let's hear your thoughts. This mod is for you.
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Comments

  • nezznezz Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174712Members
    I agree this needs to happen. In recent history we have seen UWE almost neglect needed fixes that Samus has fixed a long time ago eg: skulk sounds. With people like mendasp & Samus in the community we should be utilizing there skills so we can fix any issues straight away and not have to wait months and months for a fix that should be released straight away.
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Sounds like a great idea. If its possible to create a pub side to the mod where normal pub servers can run so they can receive the benefits of balance and game play changes please do so. I suspect it would be well received now that development is winding down.
  • bonagebonage Join Date: 2012-10-13 Member: 162230Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited March 2014
    I think that future of NS2 has definitely come to a crossroads, and I think this has really been made evident by the wildly successful NS2WC. Whilst we appreciate all the efforts UWE and that various playtesters have contributed toward the game, it is becoming more apparent that in order for this game to survive competitively, the community will need to step up and take matters into their own hands.

    The contributions of community members like mendasp and samus have already corrected many of the issues players have had with the game, and have been instrumental part of sustaining the competitive community. It gives a glimpse of the potential that a strictly regulated community driven NSL mod can have. I think if we want to keep playing this game, it’s the responsibility of the community to take this to the next level, especially if development on NS2 from UWE’s end is coming to a halt.

    Potential benefits:

    • The competitive community knows this game best. We have all invested large numbers of hours into the game giving many of us perspective on what works and what doesn’t
    • Fast turnaround on bug fixes. No need for playtester groups, as competitive teams will more than likely be able to replicate said bugs with ease
    • Increased freedom in implanting key support features (look at how much CHUD has given us already)
    • Community determined balance additions
    • The chance to actually use gorge webs and make fade upgrades actually useful?
    • Possibly a useable first person spec mode? Demo system? The possibilities are enticing

    Things to be Careful of:

    • The gameplay becomes substantially different to the vanilla version. However, this is not necessarily a bad thing if all the changes make the game more enjoyable, and attracts more players.
    • The potential that an NSL mod could segregate the competitive community. Large departures from the original gameplay such as the removal of cysts or the removal of alien commander would potentially cause massive rifts. Changes would need to be well thought out.
    • Ensuring that said changes are beneficial to all levels of the comp community, from premier all the way down to the lowest divisions


    In my mind, UWE have done a great job with the game already. But we have to face facts – they are an indie studio, with an indie budget, and can only do so much. There are certainly avenues that they can take on their end to increase longevity and support the creation of official content via things like cosmetic sales akin to TF2/CS:GO/Dota2/LoL. However, I suspect that any new official content supported by these avenues will likely not filter through to things like balance, supporting functionality or performance changes, simply because the budget will not support these changes.

    I do not see an NSL mod as being counterproductive to the vanilla game. Much like Sewlek’s beta mod, I believe an NSL mod will help to show how the game can be made better, and hopefully help to sustain and hopefully attract more to our community. There’s a reason why many of us spend so much time in this game – it’s fun, it’s different from anything else out there, and the mechanics are refreshing.

    I am a strong supporter of this idea.
  • AndinagamaAndinagama Join Date: 2012-12-23 Member: 176019Members
    edited March 2014
    I wonder if having something similar to a 'pro' or NSL mod wouldn't actually bring some players together, rather than splitting them?

    I know I don't only speak for myself here when I say that I am a casual pub player who hasn't got the time to play comp (and even if I decided to make it a priority to play more, which I wouldn't mind since I think NS2 is a great game, I don't have a reliable, nor fast Internet connection and would need to move house to have a possibility of ever solving that).

    I'd say I am fairly highly skilled (325h) on pub, and if there were a comp-supported NSL mod with better QoL improvements, and more 'vets' hanging around on servers with those mods installed, I have much better games when I play with vets than with pub games (I generally enjoy games where people discuss strategy and commanders have a plan and people use their mics) and would more likely join this kind of server.

    A large part of a player's experience, and ultimately deciding which 'community' to be a part of will depend on their individual experience in-game. Are players kind, netural, abusive? I think personal player dynamics have a greater effect on community 'splitting' than creating a promod for casuals and enthusiasts and also new players that like the game and want to learn from 'better' players.

    Basically, community dynamics are a hidden influence we neglect, and improving players' QoL and improving the likelihood that they will find skilled players over ignorant ones will improve the size of the community we'd like to have.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    Small balance tweaks like resource needed for x structure or lifeform are fine.
    But something big like 'remove cysts' would be problematic.

    In other words, it is my opinion that a competitive balance mod would not need to change core mechanics. Prevent it from being to different then NS2.
    HUD changes for example, are perfectly fine. The same for bug fixes, stability etc.

    Also maps, more maps! Make a NSL mappack part of such a mod? I strongly believe we could all do better supporting custom maps.
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Small balance tweaks like resource needed for x structure or lifeform are fine.
    But something big like 'remove cysts' would be problematic.

    In other words, it is my opinion that a competitive balance mod would not need to change core mechanics. Prevent it from being to different then NS2.
    HUD changes for example, are perfectly fine. The same for bug fixes, stability etc.

    Also maps, more maps! Make a NSL mappack part of such a mod? I strongly believe we could all do better supporting custom maps.

    Isn't friendly fire already a pretty large change?
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    @Omega_K2‌
    Yes, yes it is.. Im sort of against FF because its a large change.

    That one large change made it in, does not mean we should open the door to more of them.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Friendly fire has been part of comp ns2 for a long time now. It's a 33%.

    It punishes really lazy alien play during engagements since you have to aim instead of mindlessly holding m1. It hardly affects marine play.
  • ball2hiball2hi Join Date: 2012-10-22 Member: 163128Members
    joshhh wrote: »
    Friendly fire has been part of comp ns2 for a long time now. It's a 33%.

    It punishes really lazy alien play during engagements since you have to aim instead of mindlessly holding m1. It hardly affects marine play.

    You haven't seen me flailing around my shotgun when Fades are warping about and meatshot my team-mate right behind me because he was hugging me afraid of the Fade.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited March 2014
    joshhh wrote: »
    It hardly affects marine play.

    http://youtu.be/plWnm7UpsXk?t=8s

    But really, it definitely effects marine play to a small margin at certain stages of the game and in certain scenarios. I've eaten shotgun blasts from friendlies.. / gotten picked by a teammate after receiving two bites with A0 and shooting a skulk on me.
  • IronsoulIronsoul Join Date: 2011-03-12 Member: 86048Members
    I hate the game in it's current state, change away.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    aaah friendly fire.
    'omg fades'
    'hey a 2 legged thingy..BLAM'
    'ow that wasnt the fade'

    At least once a month. ;)
  • It's Super Effective!It's Super Effective! Join Date: 2012-08-28 Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    I've been advocating something like this or a while now regardless to whatever degree it happens, glad to see more people are onboard.

    I'd for one like to see more strategies become more viable to shake things up. Dare I say, Exo Strategy???
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Problem with this is that it divides the community, which is slowly shrinking. Mods usually don't bring more people to the game, but rather encourages players to keep playing.
  • jackson7jackson7 France Join Date: 2013-10-05 Member: 188594Members
    If some (small) changes are great / useful, perhaps UWE can implement them in the Vanilla version... :D it can give them some ideas too.
    And it would be a way to fit the game to OUR vision. I'm in favor of such an initiative. But, just as DC Darkling, I do not wish to see some major changes. This would be some kind of balance mod, right? Right?
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    edited March 2014
    This has already been ratified by the teams in almost every division and a mod has been published, for those who don't keep up on ENSL.

    Chet it out here- http://www.ensl.org/articles/866 and please feel free to leave feedback (preferably after you've played a few games on it- no armchair theorycrafting ;P)
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    As a pubber and occasional scrimmer, I worry about the degree this would be done. I can imagine 3 kinds of servers: Vanilla, Pub Mod, and Comp Mod. This would divide the already small community and make it more difficult for new people to figure out whats going on. Seems to be there are already a few not wanting major changes though.
  • KanehKaneh Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174783Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    yeah there's a number of people with similar worries. I think the goal is to avoid any mechanics changes and try to just tweak numbers to achieve the desired effects
  • jewbearjewbear Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Could you do something about hallucinations? Maybe if there are in obs range have them pop or likewise if scanned
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    The mod feels great so far. From a few scrims I've played with it so far (Sauna and a few other teams), the emphasis on PvE seems to have gone down a bit. Crag hive also feels like it is manageable to play against when your marine (no more 800eHP mucous fades). So far I am really pleased.

    Big thanks to dragon for taking the time to tweak in-game numbers for our mod.
    jewbear wrote: »
    Could you do something about hallucinations? Maybe if there are in obs range have them pop or likewise if scanned

    Just curious on why you think the hard counter needs to come back? I feel that the 2 hallucination cap makes them manageable right now without a scan/obs counter.
  • jewbearjewbear Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    joshhh wrote: »
    jewbear wrote: »
    Could you do something about hallucinations? Maybe if there are in obs range have them pop or likewise if scanned

    Just curious on why you think the hard counter needs to come back? I feel that the 2 hallucination cap makes them manageable right now without a scan/obs counter.

    Because they are just bullet sponges, if they didn't take any damage I wouldn't have a problem with it. Maybe make it possible to shoot through them even.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    I know rant was asking about that yesterday so making them soft targets is definitely an option I would like to see as well.
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    They should be soft targets if they aren't then it's a bug that should be reported. The last word we got is they were.

    Also I found out this weekend this mod is separate from NSL mod making it playable on any public server that wants to do it. Gibs server was running this and while I honestly wouldn't have known had I not been told I'm glad public servers have the option to do this. Hopefully others pick up on it.
  • nezznezz Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174712Members
    noticable less pve, Fade feels a bit stronger. STill needs better hive upgrades. not stab & vortex
  • NeXuSNeXuS US Join Date: 2013-10-13 Member: 188681Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Not sure how I feel about the HP only mucous now. :/
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    It heals the same amount of effective HP per use as it did when it was armor only. We should wait a while longer and see how it plays out. :D
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Members
    "It hardly affects marine play." <- I read that as a challenge ...
  • ball2hiball2hi Join Date: 2012-10-22 Member: 163128Members
    Cysts were a real pain to clear out back when they had 550hp (Full clip W1) and if they had a crag they were even worse.

    However, with 450hp I feel that cysts are cleared too easily now, especially once W1 is up. Would it be possible to buff cysts in another means? Possibly increasing build speed, or cyst spread speed, or even reduce the time it takes before you can replace a cyst in a general area once it gets cleared (They have so little HP when dropped it shouldn't be that much of an issue to clear).

    However, the latter feels as though it may make decysting harvesters pointless since it could get recysted quicker. I wouldn't mind seeing cyst spread infestation faster to compensate for being easily dealt with now.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Cyst maturity time was half'd as the counterbalance to less hp.
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