Eclipse - Fix or Fine?
MuckyMcFly
Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
Ok, this is bugging me. Every time Eclipse is played people moan about it but I can't figure out why? Yes its a tough one but surely that makes it more fun?
I'd like to hear people's views, does it need a tweek, if so what or do you really enjoy the battles in south loop
)
I'd like to hear people's views, does it need a tweek, if so what or do you really enjoy the battles in south loop
)
Comments
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2176186/#Comment_2176186
What exactly is broken?
The only real chance I had to play Eclipse was when the official servers were running it 24/7... Now if I'm lucky enough for it to come up (which it almost never does) I have to hope that people don't vote to change the map. (which they almost always do)
I just don't get it, I didn't like Eclipse at first, but after learning the map a bit it grew on me. I wish people would be more willing to play maps other than Tram and Summit... I mean seriously, Tram and Summit are like the "go to" maps, and to me it feels like they are played ten times more than any other map.
I want to play more Eclipse, Descent, Biodome, etc... Anything but Tram and Summit again... I've actually quit playing when those maps come up because I'm so sick of them.
Eclipse has a huge number and it really bugs me. If I could magically make crates etc vanish from existence, I would gladly do it!!!
I think the gameplay in NS2, and Spark as an engine, suffers because of a simple design mistake, the player characters are too big. If NS2 was remade with a player unit size of 60, rather than it's 75, the game would be a whole lot smoother and simpler, LOS would be better, so much would be improved.
It would mean that NS1 maps would have a better chance of working too, although I sometimes wish people would dedicate their time to making new and interesting maps built specifically around NS2 gameplay, rather than taking old maps and trying to shoehorn them into a very different game and engine.
Ultimately I love NS1 maps, in NS1, I prefer new maps in NS2
- It's not ns1 eclipse therefore it's bad!
- It's too marine favoured because of tight corridors!
- It's too alien favoured because of winding corridors!
- It's imbalanced! (ambiguous?)
Basically I see it as a 'difficult' map. In that, for each team there are stringent requirements for winning the map and you are punished hard if you dont fulfill them.
The map gameplay boils down to keeping the other team out of sub/keyhole/maintenance; whichever is relevant to the spawn points. These locations are very easy to defend once you're in, for both teams.
The map becomes problematic for a team that doesn't realise this and take advantage of it- marines that dont zone properly early game, and perhaps get PGs at TPs instead of important locations. Likewise for aliens that dont gorge off power sub/ keyhole, and respond en masse to enemy threats in these locations.
So at first glance, the map is practically built to be a stomp for one team or the other. It will accentuate differences in skill level between two teams.
It's not even down to skulks being easy to shoot or marines being easy to bite, the problem is THIS:
The map layout is logically similar to the structure of veil with 3 TPs and 2 major chokes, however if you LOOK at the map, it's a big fucking mess. There's no rapidly discernable order to its layout and that means less skilled teams are going to have difficulties identifying where the lanes are, and there's going to be very little natural laning going on.
Obviously it's kind of too late to make sweeping changes to the entire map layout, but smaller changes can definitely be made to improve the way players are directed through the map. Like making the northwest exit from power sub more prominent - aliens in pubs rarely take this route, but if you let a bunch of marines run wild, they'll all funnel in there eventually. This is the source of the 'imba'.
Same kind of goes for keyhole- you may have noticed mindless drones of both teams are easily funnel into this location whether or not it provides any strategic importance to the match.
tl;dr?
> Map's fine but very sensitive to skill level
> can be improved with minor adjustments to layout of a couple of rooms to improve map flow.
Game mechanics should be balanced for the highest level play, but map design needs to take ergonomics and human nature into account.
You know that sewlek (Andi) is the gameplay / balance dev? Max is the one who could improve server perf (engine) and is also still working on that (from time to time) beside subnautica.
And what should mendasp do ??? :-?
BTT: You might find this interessting: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2175681/#Comment_2175681
It would only make things worse really.
Anyway, I can understand and agree with some of the criticism, like having too much crates and cramped corridors in general, but I also feel a lot of people prefer to moan and sulk rather than give the map an honest chance (which seems to happen whenever a new map hits rotation).
- Maintenance start is a nightmare. Especially if Marines discover it early with medpack feature / bug.
- Marines closest rt's, Triad and Access are too far or to hard to defend.
For anyone who dislikes the map and feels the need to just immediately vote it down, it really doesn't help to just avoid it. The map was made different than the current set of maps completely intentionally. There is no need for new maps that play the same way. Even the testing done before the map was released is not nearly enough to get a good idea of what may be wrong. It can show some major flaws, but does not show a lot of the general balance changes that may be needed. This is where discussion tends to help. What do you dislike about the map? What needs changing? This community is small, and the less discussion that comes from you guys, the less I can do about fixing problems. So it really is up to this community to give feedback.
2) Same idea with the little room that is immediately after south loop walking towards maintenance. It just feels very claustrophobic to move around in.
3) North east entrance to computer core hive also needs reworked. Too much of a cluster fuck getting down the stairs, fighting aliens while trying to avoid teammates blocking your escape if needed.
4) Marine start where the CC sits needs reworked for obvious reasons.
5) I'm not particularly fond of the south loop crate and the marine spawn crates or the crates right outside the marine start.
6) The vent in power sub junction needs to be lifted higher off the ground on both ends. If a skulk goes in there its obvious as hell, you just jump down either end and shoot him and climb back out the north end.
7) I also don't like the wall put in near keyhole to make the run time longer from marine start to maintenance. I do not have a solution but that "added" hallway is very boring...
I just need a little break from eclipse for now, just feels overplayed for me personally.
Thanks.
Just please keep in mind that a 50/50 win rate should not be the only target, but also how the map plays in general and whether it is frustrating or not. The often lauded 50/50 win rate that was achieved in NS2 now and then through irritating mechanics still meant the game was irritating and un-fun even if it was balanced.
I will also add that I do not have a particular care if the map still resembles the old eclipse from ns1, because I didn't particularly love how that played either.
A few things that spring to mind:
* Inconsistent texture sets throughout the map.
*Very busy walls that have way too much detail and are distracting. Prefer the yellow/grey textures found near marine start.
*Long tendril-like map layout from marine start down to areas of interest. This just renders the passageways from marine start as intentional time sinks to keep marines away from alien expansion, rather than actual functional areas where combat happens.
*Powersub too large an area that gives LOS to both alien expansion routes.
1: Remove all silly crates (result: map gets marine favored).
2: Remove the Teleportation exit from Eclipse hive and put another teleport-entrance around Maintenance hive.
3: Make it act and look like a failed experiment. Players teleporting in it will explode after 3 seconds BUT aliens are able to make a cyst chain threw it, both ways (result: aliens have a better chance when marines get the area around CC).
Would be fun! More of an NS1 feel with patches of marine controlled areas and alien controlled areas instead of the Ns2 'oil spreads'.
How interesting it would be to have pipe/sub-access as marine/alien starts, and have cargo/control as tech points to fight over, just to shake things up. Rarely do you ever see a hive built in control.
I remember a while back that I had a few games with this start (not sure if it was because of UWE or the server admin). the results were pretty bad as aliens couldn't cyst out of their base because of the marines close by. It wasn't interesting, it was total domination by marines
The flow of the map is fantastic.
Altho sometimes i wonder what diffrent starting locations could do.
For example if you start in Marine Start and Aliens in Eclipse, then they easily control Triad, so you gotta get Keyhole, which is a long walk in the beginning without gates, but Aliens can immediatelly shortcut it with a Tunnel giving them a slight advantage.
So my proposal in this case would be to give Marines Maintenance as an alternative starting location and to rename Marine Start to Arrival.
*cringes* biodome
-Maintenance : Marines can kill eggs from entrance doorways. Bad starting hive for what i saw all along. Same as NS1.
-Computer core : Obvious sieging problem as it is a little easier to siege on NS2. The hive is lower than the surrounding location. It's not having the higher ground.
-Eclipse : A decent ninja can go there unnoticed (command access south) if no Lerk check regularly these areas (loosing time of course). PG, TP lock. Feels wide open. I even "nade" it from outside using ricochet techniques.
-Triad: Thin, thin thin. You can get stuck on the top of the energy "thing" sometimes.
-T-junction : good. Provide a spot for alien tunnel.
-Key hole : Marines pressure point like NS1
-Horse shoe : a little more deadly for marines.
-South loop : small
-Power sub junction : deadly for aliens.
Overall graphic work: Fine. Respect of style and colors chosen all over the map.
FPS: Well it's one of the heaviest map i think. Lots of props made for it.
Wall jump: One of the most annoying thing in this map is the "reach". On some areas you barely touch the ground when wall jumping from left wall to right wall (O really?). On some other you fell stuck in the middle of the alley (huh?). That is because a set of 2 size have be implemented. Small areas like Generator and bigger like T-junction or south of Alpha.
Vents : Deadliest weapon for alien when they can use it. It means you have to know the map to play it properly which is incompatible with rookies. which lead back to "when they can use it". Considering no marines use it too...
General note :
If you wanna adapt maps from NS1 to NS2; make it NS2 maps with 5 TPs.
People start to hate these NS1 maps because these maps simply don't fit the NS2 bill.
Who said Veil ? Same issue from NS1.
-You got Pipe... you got a hard day if marines are ok.
-Getting Nano for alien : not a option (a least secure it).
etc...