bottom line after 11 years of playing NS
no_use_for_a_name
Join Date: 2003-05-06 Member: 16090Members
Join Date: 2003-05-06 Member: 16090Members
So, I've been playing NS ever since it became it became publicly available back in 2002(?) and spent a lot of hours playing ever since.
Since I hadn’t played NS2 like in a year or so, I recently reinstalled it and…well, was pretty disappointed so see that imo ever since 1.0x (ns1) the game has undergone some very odd changes.
Note: that this comes from someone only playing as alien and only on the largest available servers.
1) Lifeforms having a huge skill ceiling and are being balanced on the top performance of this ceiling
Back when the game was originally released, you could play basicially every role and contribute to the team effort. However, starting with the revamp of the fade (removal of acid rocket as 2nd hive ability & changed blink) in an (successful) attempt to increase the skill ceiling of the lifeform, the game became more and more unfun for the average player.
What it did was turning fade into a lifeform that only 1% of the player population could recuperate on the res cost; for the rest of the players the resources spent on that lifeform was basically wasted. But...since onos was a 3rd hive lifeform back then, you basically lost EVERY game unless you had one of those "1%"-players on your team. You could still do some good as lerk umbra'ing, but apart from that, you spent the vast majority of the game as a skulk which felt very depressing since skulks feel mismatched against mid-/endgame marines.
The same "rebalancing" kinda continued in later NS1 and NS2, but at least you could go Onos @ 2nd hive so some fun still remained...
...however when I came back a couple of days ago, I was shocked to see the extend to which this rebalancing has been done. With certain skills (leap / stomp...) no longer automatically available, the skulk feels super weak (skulk without leap vs jetpack/shotty...yea...fun) and the same goes for the onos with the lower damage / armor etc. If I see two or three marines now, I better run because there's a high chance of not surviving that engagment. At the same time, lerk + fade are basically reserved for the "1%"-players because as an average dude, you'll get instagibed.
While playing yesterday, there was a new player asking how to play better because he died 13 times without killing anyone, the answer: "Working as intended". You cannot even recommend saving for a specific lifeform anymore because it is gonna be wasted, if you're new or average all you can ever do is play skulk(!) for the WHOLE match.
2) playing as alien feels extremely frustrating even if you win
The main reason being 1) because if you're not an amazing player, all lifeforms (even onos) feel soooo weak nowadays.
The other reason is that you can tell typically very early if you are gonna lose or win, however the game will still drag on for another 20 to 30 minutes. And during that time you're stuck with skulks playing against jp/shotties/gl/exos...talking about being punished for losing. And yes, it is possible to comeback against the odds, but that happens maybe once in 50 games and I don't want to waste several hours of my life just to maybe see a comeback.
Which reminds me of how back then it was always said that aliens vs rines had basically the same win/loss ratio, which was true...BUT the average marine win took like 30 minutes, whereas the average alien win was more like 5-10 minutes (dominating aliens just rushing marines base...).
Another reason is the grenade launcher, it used to be just a skulk clearer, but since a while now lerks get pretty much instagibed and even fades go down easily.
I could go on with other issues like supposedly unfun elements being removed (paralyze / devour...) yet introducing something like those gas grenades, the game being inherently unbalanced in marine favor the higher the player count is, teamwork not really that important anymore (one good player > 10 average players), game being very susceptible to hacking due to the amount of hitscan weapons with no recoil whatsoever, skill requirements being so strangly different for both teams (good aim = good marine player, same is not true for aliens), spam fest due to no FF...
A friend recently saw me playing the game and asked me if I'd recommend NS2, so I took a screenshot of the score board (two players on the alien team with ~25:1 k/d, while the other 18(!) players had like 0.5:1 k/d) and sent it to him saying that this is the average NS2 game and that in order to become like one of those two good players you have to sink hundreds of hours into the game. Needless to say that he wasn't interested in playing the game.
Which brings me to the final question which has ever since NS1 2.0 really confused me: Why did UWE so purposefully focus on competive play? I mean, the game is so unfun and frustrating if you're not a pro player, how did you expect to get a large playerbase? All the other games that have a somewhat meaningful competitive scene (which NS has not), are at least fun to play at any skill level whereas in NS a single player can dominate a whole match making the other other team basically feel worthless.
What really sucks is, that up until now (for me anyway) the game still had something, that was somewhat entertaining to play, but now it seems that all that is gone.
Since I hadn’t played NS2 like in a year or so, I recently reinstalled it and…well, was pretty disappointed so see that imo ever since 1.0x (ns1) the game has undergone some very odd changes.
Note: that this comes from someone only playing as alien and only on the largest available servers.
1) Lifeforms having a huge skill ceiling and are being balanced on the top performance of this ceiling
Back when the game was originally released, you could play basicially every role and contribute to the team effort. However, starting with the revamp of the fade (removal of acid rocket as 2nd hive ability & changed blink) in an (successful) attempt to increase the skill ceiling of the lifeform, the game became more and more unfun for the average player.
What it did was turning fade into a lifeform that only 1% of the player population could recuperate on the res cost; for the rest of the players the resources spent on that lifeform was basically wasted. But...since onos was a 3rd hive lifeform back then, you basically lost EVERY game unless you had one of those "1%"-players on your team. You could still do some good as lerk umbra'ing, but apart from that, you spent the vast majority of the game as a skulk which felt very depressing since skulks feel mismatched against mid-/endgame marines.
The same "rebalancing" kinda continued in later NS1 and NS2, but at least you could go Onos @ 2nd hive so some fun still remained...
...however when I came back a couple of days ago, I was shocked to see the extend to which this rebalancing has been done. With certain skills (leap / stomp...) no longer automatically available, the skulk feels super weak (skulk without leap vs jetpack/shotty...yea...fun) and the same goes for the onos with the lower damage / armor etc. If I see two or three marines now, I better run because there's a high chance of not surviving that engagment. At the same time, lerk + fade are basically reserved for the "1%"-players because as an average dude, you'll get instagibed.
While playing yesterday, there was a new player asking how to play better because he died 13 times without killing anyone, the answer: "Working as intended". You cannot even recommend saving for a specific lifeform anymore because it is gonna be wasted, if you're new or average all you can ever do is play skulk(!) for the WHOLE match.
2) playing as alien feels extremely frustrating even if you win
The main reason being 1) because if you're not an amazing player, all lifeforms (even onos) feel soooo weak nowadays.
The other reason is that you can tell typically very early if you are gonna lose or win, however the game will still drag on for another 20 to 30 minutes. And during that time you're stuck with skulks playing against jp/shotties/gl/exos...talking about being punished for losing. And yes, it is possible to comeback against the odds, but that happens maybe once in 50 games and I don't want to waste several hours of my life just to maybe see a comeback.
Which reminds me of how back then it was always said that aliens vs rines had basically the same win/loss ratio, which was true...BUT the average marine win took like 30 minutes, whereas the average alien win was more like 5-10 minutes (dominating aliens just rushing marines base...).
Another reason is the grenade launcher, it used to be just a skulk clearer, but since a while now lerks get pretty much instagibed and even fades go down easily.
I could go on with other issues like supposedly unfun elements being removed (paralyze / devour...) yet introducing something like those gas grenades, the game being inherently unbalanced in marine favor the higher the player count is, teamwork not really that important anymore (one good player > 10 average players), game being very susceptible to hacking due to the amount of hitscan weapons with no recoil whatsoever, skill requirements being so strangly different for both teams (good aim = good marine player, same is not true for aliens), spam fest due to no FF...
A friend recently saw me playing the game and asked me if I'd recommend NS2, so I took a screenshot of the score board (two players on the alien team with ~25:1 k/d, while the other 18(!) players had like 0.5:1 k/d) and sent it to him saying that this is the average NS2 game and that in order to become like one of those two good players you have to sink hundreds of hours into the game. Needless to say that he wasn't interested in playing the game.
Which brings me to the final question which has ever since NS1 2.0 really confused me: Why did UWE so purposefully focus on competive play? I mean, the game is so unfun and frustrating if you're not a pro player, how did you expect to get a large playerbase? All the other games that have a somewhat meaningful competitive scene (which NS has not), are at least fun to play at any skill level whereas in NS a single player can dominate a whole match making the other other team basically feel worthless.
What really sucks is, that up until now (for me anyway) the game still had something, that was somewhat entertaining to play, but now it seems that all that is gone.
Comments
You're basically saying that the game is too hard for you. Fine, but it is ridiculous that you base your game recommendations on random screenshots of someone with a high kdr... Like that isn't the case in any other fps shooter.. No, I know, it's the games fault, that you can't compete with other players.
He's certainly not alone with what he's saying because i met alot vets after humble bundle who said similair things after trying ns2 again for a few hours.
Imho in the current state ns2 is made for competitive play but lacks many features a modern game made for competitive play needs (yes uwe is working on matchmaking).
That leads to the current issue that new players get mixed up with high skilled players which turns away alot new ppl.
You won't even try to enjoy a game (which has a highly competitive gameplay and balance) if you get destroyed in your first rounds by some hightly skilled players and don't even have the chances to learn the (new) game mechanics.
Overall both ns1 and ns2 are still fun for me even as they are "quiet" different, ns2 just requieres more than ns1 to play against even skilled components as all the other competitive focused games do.
In ns1 therefore you could have fun even if you were not that high skilled because it is alot more "dynamic" than ns2. As it is not based on a so deep rock-paper-scissor system like ns2 is.
But ns2 is fun if you understand this system and find a group of even skilled ppl to play against regular.
From the rts side of the games i prefer ns2, from the fps side i would go more with ns1 in public play.
sometimes i worry the greens are winning the battle for our NS2 pubservers, based on sheer numbers.
The game is too hard for a considerable number of people. A FPS game that requires hundreds of hours of play time to not get stomped doesn't appeal to quite a few people I would imagine.
True.
Playing marine can even help improve your alien skill! (Know your enemy!)
And playing marine can be more fun than you can imagine. I used to play alien only too in the beginning. But now I enjoy both teams.
And large servers are not fun to play at. They are not really balanced, and mostly end in uncoordinated spam fests. Play on 14 or 16 slot servers and you will have a much better time!
I don't really think the changes to the lifeforms are to blame. On the contrary, I think NS1 had a higher skill ceiling even from the start. I mean, try playing NS1 vs veteran marine players, it'll be just as hard. The difference is, back in the early days of NS1, the vast majority of pub players were noobs, and thus pub play was fairly casual.
"Note: that this comes from someone only playing as alien and only on the largest available servers"
^ This is easily the biggest negative impact action you are taking right now. The game is not balanced for the 10v10+ servers. Lifeforms are going to "feel" weak because you're contending with twice as many marines as normal. And by pigeon-holing yourself into just playing Aliens, you're not playing as Marines and gaining insight on how to deal with them.
And as stated by many other people in this thread, dont' even try to bash on the high skill-ceiling. It is easily the biggest reason I keep playing this game. Each lifeform, map, and marine weapon has layers of depth to them (except maybe Welders...) that you have to learn over time. Some of it just plain not obvious from the beginning.
But, seriously? You want to argue against something that gives a game depth and intrigue over a long period of time? This is a great example of why the casual gamer is ruining the industry. None you seriously understand the satisfaction and joy in learning to become a stronger player. You want things spoon-fed to you on a silver-platter with a sticker that says "You are an amazing, skilled, and unique snowflake. Just push this button and you'll win the game with no thought needed."
Grow a pair, learn to admit to yourself that other people are better than you, and then work on your skills to do something about it instead of wasting your time bitching about the "1%" and how they're ruining this game for noobs. Id rather ruin the game for noobs, than let noobs ruin the game with handicaps they want...
/rantover
I may agree with your comment on GL though. Also, fade isn't that useful, lerk is where it's at.
This is essentially what caused Team Fortress Classic to die.
These people that don't agree with the OP can just be happy with your ever dwindling player base....... sure you may get a slight infusion of players during sales/events, but it'll just go back to where it was shortly after because of the state of what the OP mentioned.
Uhhh... do you even understand the concept of a skill ceiling?
Compared to what? Having the game be easy-mode and boring so the puppies can feel like they accomplished something skillful with the least amount of effort possible? That sounds like a real winner too.
hehe..sry couldn't resist.
2) The introduction of alien comm. The alien comm is not a bad idea itself, but the teams use to be the direct opposite of each other, being on a different team actually felt "different". Marine had comm, alien had no comm; marine had team res no personal res, alien had personal res no team res; marine can build base anywhere on the map, alien can only drop hive at the designated hive locations, nowadays both team are about "tech points". /smh
3) The art direction. NS1 looked and sounded better. The ambience, the 1970/80 sci-fi look, the music. check this out:
4) The performance. Yeah, great idea guys, let's not use the source engine as we originally planned and let's make our own sh!tty engine that runs like a absolute dog and drag the game into a 7 year development hell.
Hosting a 24p server require 4.6+ Ghz CPU? checked; can't get consistent 60 FPS with a beastly video card such as GTX680/780? checked; During peak performance, only 60% of the 4 cores in your CPU is utilized? checked; The list goes on and on. /smh
I have said this a million times, the game should have two modes, a pub mode and a comp mode. Right now UWE balances the game based on what the competitive scene is like, not what goes on in the pub community. I'm surprised that they still left exos in the game since it's never used in comp scenes.
NS1 maps worked in NS1 not in NS2 and here’s why:
1. Aliens could use ladders.
2. Aliens felt safe in vents.
3. Besides the hive and resource towers for both marines and aliens, you could build “ANYWHERE” you wanted. If there was room marines or aliens could build there they could, that even meant marines placing their cc in a vent. Aliens often put the upgrade chambers in vents cause marines couldn’t simply hop and jump in them by themselves (no needing cysts).
4. There were no limitations for the marines such as needing two tech points.
5. Vents were at such an angle that many times no matter how good the marines were they were unable to shoot into vents allowing gorges to bile marines out.
6. Marines could weld some vents closed and weld other parts of the map for lighting or doors.
Now the time they spent in alpha and beta was not waste time until UWE decided to change and or modify everything about the game since release (especially aliens) effectively throwing out all the development they did during alpha and beta. I mean really if we went back to what they game was on the first day of release to the public, it would be 2 completely different games.
I hate the idea of placing marines and aliens on the same playing field and developers saying that their balancing out, making sure things are not unfair. “Aliens shouldn’t be able to build in vents or on high places of the map. Aliens should not be able to egg anywhere it’s not completely flat effectively making the only place they can egg in on the floor.” Okay then “marine’s weapons should have a limit on how far they can shoot, if they can’t see it they can’t hit it. Arc’s shouldn’t be allowed to shoot thru walls, the arc’s themselves should have a direct line of sight.
anyone who's played both ns1 and ns2 extensively would agree to this, and UWE knows it, and they don't like it.
While playing as a Skulk vs. a Jetpack definitely is frustrating; it's rock paper unit - he paid a lot for that equip; so why should a free unit easily kill him?
However it is frustrating lacking essential moves and "perks".
I always want to slap my head against a wall when my commander delays us the extra movement speed which - in my opinion - is the core to successfully play Skulks.
I manage to make a lot out of a Fade, or Onos as well - however it requires cautious play and much more important - use to the push to talk feature.
NS2 is (/has become) a much more team dependant game then it used to be.
You gotta adapt.
try Advanced Call of battlefield war fighter, that game has lots of "perks" to unlock.
I think if they had kept it how the alien commander worked soon after they put it into play, it would have been fine since gorges were still used to build a lot of structures. Though yes they way they have it now it’s absolutely horrible, they have effectively made the role of the alien commander more important of the marine commander.
Making alien structures build slower thus the commander having to build drifters to build the faster, I’m sorry isn’t that the duty of the gorge? Just make the drifter 2 or 3 team res able to build and cloak, that’s the way they had it before and there was nothing wrong with it.
As aliens why has the tech tree become so much like marines? If the marines lose their power where the arms lab is or the arms lab they lose those upgrades but it wasn’t this way for aliens. If you evolve into a life form with abilities, even if aliens lose those chambers they should keep those abilities. I remember this clearly since this was the way it was and how UWE wanted to keep the tech trees from aliens and marines as different as they could.
this prob should be in another thread, but I just wanted to... post lol. if we need to give perks (besides the skins, icons, etc), then this game isn't looking well. but uwe has a new project and all we can do at this point is retain players or just give up. so shit, give them the perks they want. as long as it doesn't affect performance, who honestly gives a damn.
Leap could use with a 'buff' in all honesty.
While I think alien commander was as bad an idea as the next hater, the concept itself is not bad. If given enough time and leeway, you could probably design ns2 to work really well around an alien commander - just there would be huge drastic changes from the original formula.
We should remember that the only real problem ns2 has is the incompatibility between the ns1 design and the alien commander concept. What we have now is a shoehorned hybrid mess that would take too much effort (both politically and technically) beyond reason to properly fix. It's 'lukewarm' so to speak.
Marine commander is still more important, and always has been. If you were to compare number of RTS actions and amount of power conferred to the FPS level per action, you would find that marines is higher. This is basically the underlying clash with having an alien commander in ns2. It's inherently not important since the ns1 design is already 'role complete', so you try to compensate by simply giving it more and more magic 'features' to 'impact the game'. Kinda like adding sugar to sawdust to make it taste better.
On the same topic, i think it's ridiculous how heavily medpack dependant ns2 gameplay is, and how much this affects variability of gameplay experiences across skill levels.
I enjoy ns2 but I loved ns1, while I understand that UWE wanted to make it a different game not just a face lift. I still miss NS1...
For whatever reason I couldn't accept being that bad at a game, and if other people were able to do well, why not me?
Obviously not everyone can be good at a game, and agreed, the learning curve in this game is quite brutal. I found it easier because I started playing with friends who were new, too, so it was all just funny to us seeing who would suck the least each game.
I didn't play NS1, I started with NS2 but I played Quake, Unreal, ET and AvP2 before the MMS market domination and NS2 is my favorite game of 2013. I've put a good amount of hours into it and the vast majority of it was a blast. I won't understand why NS1 was apparently so awesome and I doubt I never will but this is NS2, not NS1.5. If you change too little then people whine, change too much then people whine, caught between a rock and a hard place, can't please everyone. From my PoV, this game is brilliant, not perfect but definitely a breath of fresh air from most shooters today.