bottom line after 11 years of playing NS

no_use_for_a_nameno_use_for_a_name Join Date: 2003-05-06 Member: 16090Members
So, I've been playing NS ever since it became it became publicly available back in 2002(?) and spent a lot of hours playing ever since.
Since I hadn’t played NS2 like in a year or so, I recently reinstalled it and…well, was pretty disappointed so see that imo ever since 1.0x (ns1) the game has undergone some very odd changes.
Note: that this comes from someone only playing as alien and only on the largest available servers.

1) Lifeforms having a huge skill ceiling and are being balanced on the top performance of this ceiling
Back when the game was originally released, you could play basicially every role and contribute to the team effort. However, starting with the revamp of the fade (removal of acid rocket as 2nd hive ability & changed blink) in an (successful) attempt to increase the skill ceiling of the lifeform, the game became more and more unfun for the average player.
What it did was turning fade into a lifeform that only 1% of the player population could recuperate on the res cost; for the rest of the players the resources spent on that lifeform was basically wasted. But...since onos was a 3rd hive lifeform back then, you basically lost EVERY game unless you had one of those "1%"-players on your team. You could still do some good as lerk umbra'ing, but apart from that, you spent the vast majority of the game as a skulk which felt very depressing since skulks feel mismatched against mid-/endgame marines.
The same "rebalancing" kinda continued in later NS1 and NS2, but at least you could go Onos @ 2nd hive so some fun still remained...
...however when I came back a couple of days ago, I was shocked to see the extend to which this rebalancing has been done. With certain skills (leap / stomp...) no longer automatically available, the skulk feels super weak (skulk without leap vs jetpack/shotty...yea...fun) and the same goes for the onos with the lower damage / armor etc. If I see two or three marines now, I better run because there's a high chance of not surviving that engagment. At the same time, lerk + fade are basically reserved for the "1%"-players because as an average dude, you'll get instagibed.
While playing yesterday, there was a new player asking how to play better because he died 13 times without killing anyone, the answer: "Working as intended". You cannot even recommend saving for a specific lifeform anymore because it is gonna be wasted, if you're new or average all you can ever do is play skulk(!) for the WHOLE match.

2) playing as alien feels extremely frustrating even if you win
The main reason being 1) because if you're not an amazing player, all lifeforms (even onos) feel soooo weak nowadays.
The other reason is that you can tell typically very early if you are gonna lose or win, however the game will still drag on for another 20 to 30 minutes. And during that time you're stuck with skulks playing against jp/shotties/gl/exos...talking about being punished for losing. And yes, it is possible to comeback against the odds, but that happens maybe once in 50 games and I don't want to waste several hours of my life just to maybe see a comeback.
Which reminds me of how back then it was always said that aliens vs rines had basically the same win/loss ratio, which was true...BUT the average marine win took like 30 minutes, whereas the average alien win was more like 5-10 minutes (dominating aliens just rushing marines base...).
Another reason is the grenade launcher, it used to be just a skulk clearer, but since a while now lerks get pretty much instagibed and even fades go down easily.

I could go on with other issues like supposedly unfun elements being removed (paralyze / devour...) yet introducing something like those gas grenades, the game being inherently unbalanced in marine favor the higher the player count is, teamwork not really that important anymore (one good player > 10 average players), game being very susceptible to hacking due to the amount of hitscan weapons with no recoil whatsoever, skill requirements being so strangly different for both teams (good aim = good marine player, same is not true for aliens), spam fest due to no FF...
A friend recently saw me playing the game and asked me if I'd recommend NS2, so I took a screenshot of the score board (two players on the alien team with ~25:1 k/d, while the other 18(!) players had like 0.5:1 k/d) and sent it to him saying that this is the average NS2 game and that in order to become like one of those two good players you have to sink hundreds of hours into the game. Needless to say that he wasn't interested in playing the game.
Which brings me to the final question which has ever since NS1 2.0 really confused me: Why did UWE so purposefully focus on competive play? I mean, the game is so unfun and frustrating if you're not a pro player, how did you expect to get a large playerbase? All the other games that have a somewhat meaningful competitive scene (which NS has not), are at least fun to play at any skill level whereas in NS a single player can dominate a whole match making the other other team basically feel worthless.


What really sucks is, that up until now (for me anyway) the game still had something, that was somewhat entertaining to play, but now it seems that all that is gone.
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Comments

  • tallhotblondetallhotblonde Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174770Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2014
    *NUKED* Remain polite and civil. -Talesin
  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
    edited January 2014
    I just want to say that everyone should feel free to share his opinion about the current game state without being called a noob or get abused by others.

    He's certainly not alone with what he's saying because i met alot vets after humble bundle who said similair things after trying ns2 again for a few hours.

    Imho in the current state ns2 is made for competitive play but lacks many features a modern game made for competitive play needs (yes uwe is working on matchmaking).

    That leads to the current issue that new players get mixed up with high skilled players which turns away alot new ppl.
    You won't even try to enjoy a game (which has a highly competitive gameplay and balance) if you get destroyed in your first rounds by some hightly skilled players and don't even have the chances to learn the (new) game mechanics.

    Overall both ns1 and ns2 are still fun for me even as they are "quiet" different, ns2 just requieres more than ns1 to play against even skilled components as all the other competitive focused games do.

    In ns1 therefore you could have fun even if you were not that high skilled because it is alot more "dynamic" than ns2. As it is not based on a so deep rock-paper-scissor system like ns2 is.

    But ns2 is fun if you understand this system and find a group of even skilled ppl to play against regular.

    From the rts side of the games i prefer ns2, from the fps side i would go more with ns1 in public play.
  • CCTEECCTEE Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    You won't even try to enjoy a game (which has a highly competitive gameplay and balance) if you get destroyed in your first rounds by some hightly skilled players and don't even have the chances to learn the (new) game mechanics.

    sometimes i worry the greens are winning the battle for our NS2 pubservers, based on sheer numbers.

  • VengaboyVengaboy The Swamp Join Date: 2013-08-24 Member: 187053Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2014
    Most of the issues you talk about are pretty accurate and fair but I don't see any suggestion of how to fix them. The skill ceiling is incredibly high but is this really a bad thing? Like @tallhotblonde said, this is what keeps me playing. I'm constantly trying to improve and since the game offers so many different areas for improvement its almost never ending. I mean, have you tried playing CS 1.6 lately? I used to think I was the king of that game but now I join a server and get slaughtered. The game hasn't changed and it's still completely symmetrical with only a few gameplay elements that can be mastered but the skill ceiling is still incredibly high with one person going 25:1kdr killing the entire enemy team. Is it unfair to new players? Maybe. Is it the games fault? No. Was there a big comp scene? Yes. We're pubs still fun? Of course. It's still the same multiplayer FPS we all know and loved but now I feel my skill level is well below average which makes it hard to enjoy now. So I don't agree with you that high skill ceiling, comp scene, and that one 25:0kdr player makes the game unplayable. It's certainly frustrating for new players to get in to but it's still a fantastic game in it's current state. If you don't agree, don't play it. There's plenty of other games that cater to rookies. But NS2 is not one of these.
  • B3rTB3rT Join Date: 2013-02-14 Member: 183058Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think I found your problem
    Note: that this comes from someone only playing as alien and only on the largest available servers.

    True.

    Playing marine can even help improve your alien skill! (Know your enemy!)
    And playing marine can be more fun than you can imagine. I used to play alien only too in the beginning. But now I enjoy both teams.

    And large servers are not fun to play at. They are not really balanced, and mostly end in uncoordinated spam fests. Play on 14 or 16 slot servers and you will have a much better time!
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    edited January 2014
    @no_use_for_a_name

    I don't really think the changes to the lifeforms are to blame. On the contrary, I think NS1 had a higher skill ceiling even from the start. I mean, try playing NS1 vs veteran marine players, it'll be just as hard. The difference is, back in the early days of NS1, the vast majority of pub players were noobs, and thus pub play was fairly casual.
  • AfterhoursAfterhours Join Date: 2012-09-18 Member: 159869Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    @OP

    "Note: that this comes from someone only playing as alien and only on the largest available servers"

    ^ This is easily the biggest negative impact action you are taking right now. The game is not balanced for the 10v10+ servers. Lifeforms are going to "feel" weak because you're contending with twice as many marines as normal. And by pigeon-holing yourself into just playing Aliens, you're not playing as Marines and gaining insight on how to deal with them.

    And as stated by many other people in this thread, dont' even try to bash on the high skill-ceiling. It is easily the biggest reason I keep playing this game. Each lifeform, map, and marine weapon has layers of depth to them (except maybe Welders...) that you have to learn over time. Some of it just plain not obvious from the beginning.

    But, seriously? You want to argue against something that gives a game depth and intrigue over a long period of time? This is a great example of why the casual gamer is ruining the industry. None you seriously understand the satisfaction and joy in learning to become a stronger player. You want things spoon-fed to you on a silver-platter with a sticker that says "You are an amazing, skilled, and unique snowflake. Just push this button and you'll win the game with no thought needed."

    Grow a pair, learn to admit to yourself that other people are better than you, and then work on your skills to do something about it instead of wasting your time bitching about the "1%" and how they're ruining this game for noobs. Id rather ruin the game for noobs, than let noobs ruin the game with handicaps they want...

    /rantover
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Im going to disagree with every point you made there. The skill ceiling is too low and losing your lifeforms is not frustrating enough. On my last point I don't mean it should be frustrating, just that it doesn't hold enough value.

    I may agree with your comment on GL though. Also, fade isn't that useful, lerk is where it's at.
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members
    edited January 2014
    current1y wrote: »


    .... A FPS game that requires hundreds of hours of play time to not get stomped doesn't appeal to quite a few people I would imagine.

    This is essentially what caused Team Fortress Classic to die.

    These people that don't agree with the OP can just be happy with your ever dwindling player base....... sure you may get a slight infusion of players during sales/events, but it'll just go back to where it was shortly after because of the state of what the OP mentioned.

  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    coolitic wrote: »
    The skill ceiling is too low and losing your lifeforms is not frustrating enough. On my last point I don't mean it should be frustrating, just that it doesn't hold enough value.

    Uhhh... do you even understand the concept of a skill ceiling?
  • AfterhoursAfterhours Join Date: 2012-09-18 Member: 159869Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Res wrote: »
    This is essentially what caused Team Fortress Classic to die.

    These people that don't agree with the OP can just be happy with your ever dwindling player base....... sure you may get a slight infusion of players during sales/events, but it'll just go back to where it was shortly after because of the state of what the OP mentioned.

    Compared to what? Having the game be easy-mode and boring so the puppies can feel like they accomplished something skillful with the least amount of effort possible? That sounds like a real winner too.

  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Sometimes the skill floor is too high when it comes to understanding what a skill ceiling is.

    hehe..sry couldn't resist.
  • PaajtorPaajtor Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168634Members
    edited January 2014
  • AmbAmb Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168647Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    current1y wrote: »
    The game is too hard for a considerable number of people. A FPS game that requires hundreds of hours of play time to not get stomped doesn't appeal to quite a few people I would imagine.

    I have said this a million times, the game should have two modes, a pub mode and a comp mode. Right now UWE balances the game based on what the competitive scene is like, not what goes on in the pub community. I'm surprised that they still left exos in the game since it's never used in comp scenes.
  • SdricSdric Germany Join Date: 2014-01-02 Member: 191297Members
    As a realatively new player I can't agree.
    While playing as a Skulk vs. a Jetpack definitely is frustrating; it's rock paper unit - he paid a lot for that equip; so why should a free unit easily kill him?

    However it is frustrating lacking essential moves and "perks".
    I always want to slap my head against a wall when my commander delays us the extra movement speed which - in my opinion - is the core to successfully play Skulks.

    I manage to make a lot out of a Fade, or Onos as well - however it requires cautious play and much more important - use to the push to talk feature.

    NS2 is (/has become) a much more team dependant game then it used to be.
    You gotta adapt.
  • AmbAmb Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168647Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Sdric wrote: »
    However it is frustrating lacking essential moves and "perks".

    try Advanced Call of battlefield war fighter, that game has lots of "perks" to unlock.
  • Know painKnow pain Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members
    PoNeH wrote: »
    3) Alien commanders. Worst idea ever!

    I think if they had kept it how the alien commander worked soon after they put it into play, it would have been fine since gorges were still used to build a lot of structures. Though yes they way they have it now it’s absolutely horrible, they have effectively made the role of the alien commander more important of the marine commander.

    Making alien structures build slower thus the commander having to build drifters to build the faster, I’m sorry isn’t that the duty of the gorge? Just make the drifter 2 or 3 team res able to build and cloak, that’s the way they had it before and there was nothing wrong with it.

    As aliens why has the tech tree become so much like marines? If the marines lose their power where the arms lab is or the arms lab they lose those upgrades but it wasn’t this way for aliens. If you evolve into a life form with abilities, even if aliens lose those chambers they should keep those abilities. I remember this clearly since this was the way it was and how UWE wanted to keep the tech trees from aliens and marines as different as they could.


  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members
    honestly, I think all the "perks" are.. not needed, unless, rookies love them. at this point we are just trying to retain players until the abandoned ns2 (by uwe), becomes old and people transfer to SN. not trying to be a jerk but, from the lack of uwe responds, this game is mostly left to people making mods to progress the game.

    this prob should be in another thread, but I just wanted to... post lol. if we need to give perks (besides the skins, icons, etc), then this game isn't looking well. but uwe has a new project and all we can do at this point is retain players or just give up. so shit, give them the perks they want. as long as it doesn't affect performance, who honestly gives a damn.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2014
    Sdric wrote: »
    As a realatively new player I can't agree.
    While playing as a Skulk vs. a Jetpack definitely is frustrating; it's rock paper unit - he paid a lot for that equip; so why should a free unit easily kill him?
    Not really. He only paid 15 for it lol. Thats less than a shotgun, or 3 mines, or essentially 50% of a lerk. Behold the wonders of a pres/tres separated resource system.
    Leap could use with a 'buff' in all honesty.
    PoNeH wrote: »
    3) Alien commanders. Worst idea ever!
    While I think alien commander was as bad an idea as the next hater, the concept itself is not bad. If given enough time and leeway, you could probably design ns2 to work really well around an alien commander - just there would be huge drastic changes from the original formula.

    We should remember that the only real problem ns2 has is the incompatibility between the ns1 design and the alien commander concept. What we have now is a shoehorned hybrid mess that would take too much effort (both politically and technically) beyond reason to properly fix. It's 'lukewarm' so to speak.
    Know pain wrote: »
    PoNeH wrote: »
    3) Alien commanders. Worst idea ever!
    Though yes they way they have it now it’s absolutely horrible, they have effectively made the role of the alien commander more important of the marine commander.
    Marine commander is still more important, and always has been. If you were to compare number of RTS actions and amount of power conferred to the FPS level per action, you would find that marines is higher. This is basically the underlying clash with having an alien commander in ns2. It's inherently not important since the ns1 design is already 'role complete', so you try to compensate by simply giving it more and more magic 'features' to 'impact the game'. Kinda like adding sugar to sawdust to make it taste better.

    On the same topic, i think it's ridiculous how heavily medpack dependant ns2 gameplay is, and how much this affects variability of gameplay experiences across skill levels.
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members
    The biggest problem with NS2 is that it came out after NS1... They go giving us the greatest game ever in 2002, then get all our hopes up! And bam, alien comm, marine tech points, no hmg, no elevators, no weldables, no tanith, no Hera......

    I enjoy ns2 but I loved ns1, while I understand that UWE wanted to make it a different game not just a face lift. I still miss NS1...
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members
    When I first started I spent many rounds dying several times as a skulk before ever getting a kill. I think my worst was around 14 deaths with no kills.

    For whatever reason I couldn't accept being that bad at a game, and if other people were able to do well, why not me?

    Obviously not everyone can be good at a game, and agreed, the learning curve in this game is quite brutal. I found it easier because I started playing with friends who were new, too, so it was all just funny to us seeing who would suck the least each game.
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited January 2014
    You know, there are still people who play NS1 daily. It's a lot of fun still after all the years.
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