My point of view as a new player and as a veteran esport gamer

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  • _INTER__INTER_ Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Posts: 822 Advanced user
    In Lol you click play and it'll find you 9 other guys to play with
    And atleast one (all of them is also very likely) of them is bound to be either afk, a flamer, a troll, a douchebag or braindead. If you don't pawn in a game you will be flamed by your team, noone wants to admit his own shortcomming. Sure in NS2 this can also happen, but its not the standard like it is in LoL. Noone is bothered by green / bad playeres too much, because theres nothing to loose.
    So I've mixed feelings about the upcoming matchmaking system. One the one hand there is no doubt there is a need for some sort of matchmaking, but then I also don't want to miss beeing able to join my favorite server and just have fun playing. Because its on those servers I feel it doesn't matter if I actually win or loose in the end but the way I got there.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
  • simple_simple_ Members Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188102Posts: 41 Fully active user
    MaxAmus wrote: »
    I play it to get that "Good job" from the commander......then it dawns on me when the round ends? I was commanding :( so who commands the commanders :O
    The players :D
    Yesterday I was comm for a bunch of rookies (most of the time I felt like I talk to my self) but after the round, one of the rookies even thanked me :)

  • ZinkeyZinkey Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2013-06-25 Member: 185694Posts: 123
    edited December 2013
    Neoken wrote: »
    Chizzler wrote: »
    TL:DR
    The key to player retention and enjoyment is to understand the psychology of gamers and to exploit reward pathways in the brain to make the player feel good thus improving the odds of them enjoying the game.

    That's a double edged sword as well. Focus too much on the skinner boxes, and your playerbase will consist mainly of players who are only still in it for the "rewards" rather than the game itself. Best example are f2p games, which rely very heavily on skinner boxes, and also tend to bring out the worst in people.

    I have to agree, looking at just the BF series this player progression model does increase player count, but more into a mass of drones farming rewards for a game they barely "play" but merely log on for points and skins and guns.

    Anyone who played BF3 on PC should know about the 24/7 metro conquest 1000 ticket 64man servers that are basically two teams of 32 lobbing explosives at each other as it is the most efficient way to farm points. Eventually getting to the point where the number of players who actually play the game in a more engaging intelligent way is probably not that different from NS2.

    In fact I was playing BF4 a bit for the first time last weekend and before even playing the game it was obvious which map was the new "metro" (or nuketown for COD players out there). Most of the servers with anyone on were 24/7 Operation Locker 64 man. Sure enough when trying one of them it was filled with 64 people crammed in one small space in absolute carnage.

    A rating/matchmaking system would give it the right sort of long term investment as it encourages playing the game well. Points/Levels would probably make the game more profitable but I'm pretty sure it would also kill a lot of the things that make NS2 great and unique.
    KwisatzHaderach
  • NammNamm Members Join Date: 2011-12-08 Member: 137116Posts: 412 Fully active user
    NJNaoned wrote: »
    Now, what would be nice is a mode where you wait in a queue to find 11, 13, 15 other players to play a game. Those players must have a similare level in order to make a balanced game. At the end of the game, the players in the winner team earn points, the players in the looser team loose points and you make a ranking system according to thoses points (basic ELO system). With this kind of system, I think players will be more inclined to keep playing and invest more time to increase their level. Then, more player will play the game, which will make the community grow and make NS2 a real esport game.
    I agree.

    A kind of lobby to gather players before a game starts would be great. Players with roughly equal recorded skill (and optional stuff like of course ping, perhaps language, prefered race, map, a predefined pool of servers etc.) joins a lobby, and when enough players are "ready" (there's a timeout, so the player would need to click a ready button every minute or so) in the lobby, the game commences. Call the update Natural Selection 2: Readyroom Refurbished.
    Eternally Gratituded™
  • COLSWEETOCOLSWEETO Members Join Date: 2013-02-26 Member: 183349Posts: 29
    Hard to imagine this game would ever be a sport considering how often they change everything
  • xDragonxDragon Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Posts: 1,954 Fully active user
    Man you are just a infinite source of great wisdom...
    Nazo
  • COLSWEETOCOLSWEETO Members Join Date: 2013-02-26 Member: 183349Posts: 29
    edited December 2013
    xDragon wrote: »
    Man you are just a infinite source of great wisdom...
    Is that not a fair argument? At what point is it not acceptable? Major gameplay changes every month, few months, year? Or are you just trolling?
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    The only "major" game play change was 250. Every update after that have been little things that are easily adjusted to. We wouldn't be a very good competitive community if every little change completely through off our game.
    ._.
    Nazohalfofaheavenfrantix
  • NJNaonedNJNaoned FranceMembers Join Date: 2013-12-04 Member: 189773Posts: 8
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    In Lol you click play and it'll find you 9 other guys to play with
    And atleast one (all of them is also very likely) of them is bound to be either afk, a flamer, a troll, a douchebag or braindead. If you don't pawn in a game you will be flamed by your team, noone wants to admit his own shortcomming. Sure in NS2 this can also happen, but its not the standard like it is in LoL. Noone is bothered by green / bad playeres too much, because theres nothing to loose.
    So I've mixed feelings about the upcoming matchmaking system. One the one hand there is no doubt there is a need for some sort of matchmaking, but then I also don't want to miss beeing able to join my favorite server and just have fun playing. Because its on those servers I feel it doesn't matter if I actually win or loose in the end but the way I got there.

    Adding a matchmaking does not include erasing public server. Even more, I think having both is really important. Sometime you only want to play for fun, not to play with a strong focus, public server are here for this.

    (It's weird that there is a lack of commander, this is the role i enjoy the most to play :D , maybe because I come from rts game, not fps)
  • NeXuSNeXuS USMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2013-10-13 Member: 188681Posts: 401 Fully active user
    edited December 2013
    I personally don't understand why everyone is bitching so much lately. Could NS2 use some tweaks? Of course. What game doesn't? That's why every game gets patches and updates to make the game better. I think NS2 is a great game and UWE does a pretty good job at making it better.

    People that moan about changes....get over it. Its a video game. EVERY modern game gets patched with gameplay tweaks, balancing issues, etc. I think its fine. Keep up the good work UWE.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    Because otherwise the forums would be empty.
  • NJNaonedNJNaoned FranceMembers Join Date: 2013-12-04 Member: 189773Posts: 8
    I've never said it was a bad game, I really think the game is great and deserves more than it actually has.

    The lack is more around the game, the game itself is pretty good.
    RisingSunAconitSeb
  • OtsOts Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Posts: 780 Fully active user
    @NJNaoned, Nice read, thanks the input. Now win on the lottery and let's get UWE a larger dev team so we can get all of this for the next game they make. :)
  • sotanahtsotanaht Members Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    edited December 2013
    Zinkey wrote: »
    Neoken wrote: »
    Chizzler wrote: »
    TL:DR
    The key to player retention and enjoyment is to understand the psychology of gamers and to exploit reward pathways in the brain to make the player feel good thus improving the odds of them enjoying the game.

    That's a double edged sword as well. Focus too much on the skinner boxes, and your playerbase will consist mainly of players who are only still in it for the "rewards" rather than the game itself. Best example are f2p games, which rely very heavily on skinner boxes, and also tend to bring out the worst in people.

    I have to agree, looking at just the BF series this player progression model does increase player count, but more into a mass of drones farming rewards for a game they barely "play" but merely log on for points and skins and guns.

    Anyone who played BF3 on PC should know about the 24/7 metro conquest 1000 ticket 64man servers that are basically two teams of 32 lobbing explosives at each other as it is the most efficient way to farm points. Eventually getting to the point where the number of players who actually play the game in a more engaging intelligent way is probably not that different from NS2.

    In fact I was playing BF4 a bit for the first time last weekend and before even playing the game it was obvious which map was the new "metro" (or nuketown for COD players out there). Most of the servers with anyone on were 24/7 Operation Locker 64 man. Sure enough when trying one of them it was filled with 64 people crammed in one small space in absolute carnage.

    A rating/matchmaking system would give it the right sort of long term investment as it encourages playing the game well. Points/Levels would probably make the game more profitable but I'm pretty sure it would also kill a lot of the things that make NS2 great and unique.

    I don't remember that being the case back when I used to play BF2, the first and last modern military shooter I ever spent time on. I do remember there were points with near constant nadespam but that generally happened as a result of people not being able to make a push and servers weren't heavily dedicated to those maps. Maybe I just didn't notice or maybe the culture has changed, it's not like those games are marketed to anything but idiot dudebros now.
  • KamamuraKamamura Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2013-03-06 Member: 183736Posts: 669 Advanced user
    NeXuS wrote: »
    I personally don't understand why everyone is bitching so much lately.

    There is a simple answer to your question, sir. People are bitching, because there is a negligible chance you get a satisfactory gaming experience in public games. Each time you log in, the game is ruined by a combination of the following:

    1) Commander without voice or clue what to do
    2) No communication in teams
    3) People running around, fragging, not caring about strategic goals announced by the commander
    4) Unbalanced teams, games over in 3 minutes, yet it's necessary to wait 10 minutes for concede
    5) Prevalent technical problems with the game - microstutter, rubber banding, various lags before certain actions (shotgun trigger)
    6) Annoying features like badly designed AV, poor control customization, etc.

    That is perhaps, why people are "bitching", as you put it in such an eloquent and friendly manner.

    Each day, hundreds of enthusiastic new players rush to join the ranks of the TSF to protect the universe, our beloved and the values of our society from the alien menace.

    Glory to the TSF! Glory to Arstotzka ! Glory to the mods!
    wopwop
  • BobRossTheBossBobRossTheBoss Members Join Date: 2012-12-31 Member: 176824Posts: 172 Fully active user
    edited December 2013
    This game doesn't retain new players because new players join and realize that they need to have a ton of knowledge in advance (alien movement, structure functions, map awareness etc.) in order to play this game competently in first person and as commander. This requires them to invest far more time than the 5-10(?) hours it takes to lose their rookie badge just practicing these mechanics.
  • SzeiSzei NorCalMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-12-05 Member: 189803Posts: 2
    edited December 2013
    Feel free to allow players to check their own stats/rating at any time. Just don't make it easy to check other players' stats as this will just encourage solo play over team play.

    Honestly I love the fact that stat tracking isn't available in-game for everyone to see. As soon as they make it so that you can look at other player's stats easily this game is going to stop being fun for me. I play SC2 and I'm in Master league (top 2%), but since all my stats are tracked I get extremely frustrated when I lose. Same goes for FPS. In Hawken I have a 5.00 k/d and every time I get less than that I feel bad. I eventually stopped playing because the pressure to perform at my peak every game was too much and it ceased being entertainment. It became a chore. If I want that stress that accompanies stat-tracking I can just play SC2. I don't need it from every FPS I play too.

    Of course, I'm definitely in favor of matchmaking so we play people of our skill level and challenge ourselves in game. I just don't want douchebags like "nemo" (Shadow-tier supporter) checking stats during a game just to chew out rookies and or veterans who have 1.50 k/d instead of 2.00 k/d. Stupid bs like that. Not to mention there is a LOT more to being a good player than k/d and having stats integrated in-game just encourages players to worry about their personal stats rather than what's best for the team. I already feel like Hive is a bad move, but at least it's not accessible in-game.

    Don't turn this game into CoD. The community is great so far but it could easily change. One "nemo" is enough.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, BelgiumMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    @Szei

    While I can understand your point completely, please refrain from turning this into a name&shame thread. ;)
  • NeXuSNeXuS USMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2013-10-13 Member: 188681Posts: 401 Fully active user
    edited December 2013
    @Kamamura I used the term "bitching" to express my attitude towards the majority of people who complain about problems or issues within the game without taking initiative to offer ideas, insights, or other possibilities with a certain issue. Most of the time, I read posts of individuals presenting a problem and just expressing their anger towards UWE, much like your previous post that pointlessly identifies known issues with the public games. So, yeah, forgive me if I offended you for using such an "eloquent and friendly term."

    In regards to your list, I can think of just two words that would actually mediate most of these issues: Play pugs.
    Kamamura wrote: »
    1) Commander without voice or clue what to do
    Most competitive players play in pugs on a daily basis. How many competitive commanders don't have microphone to communicate? None. Problem solved.
    Kamamura wrote: »
    2) No communication in teams
    Refer to above. Problem solved.
    Kamamura wrote: »
    3) People running around, fragging, not caring about strategic goals announced by the commander
    Try this in pugs and I doubt you will stay for very long as nobody will want you on their team. Pugs run just like competitive matches, which depend on 100% teamwork, so going Rambo will just cause more harm than good. Problem solved.
    Kamamura wrote: »
    4) Unbalanced teams, games over in 3 minutes, yet it's necessary to wait 10 minutes for concede
    Sometimes pugs can become unbalanced but not on a scale you see in public games. If anything else, find a different server that forces random teams. Also, some servers offer a "surrender" at any time. You just have to hit "M" > "Surrender" instead of "X" > "Concede." Problem solved.
    Kamamura wrote: »
    5) Prevalent technical problems with the game - microstutter, rubber banding, various lags before certain actions (shotgun trigger)
    Complaining about this just reinforces my point. I'll bet that most microstutter, rubber banding, and lag is either server related or PC related or both. Getting microstutter? Upgrade your PC or just run one GPU instead of two. Tweak the graphics options to where the microstutter no longer becomes problematic. Rubber banding and lag? Find a different server. Problem solved.
    Kamamura wrote: »
    6) Annoying features like badly designed AV, poor control customization, etc.
    Two words. Steam Workshop. Numerous mods exist, such as AV and custom HUD options, for you to enjoy. Problem solved.

    As I seem to advocate playing pugs rather than public games, I still neglected to touch on the fact that the majority of players play in public lobbies. My answer to that is simple and you may or may not agree with it. You can't force someone to buy a microphone. You can't force somebody follow orders. People play games to have fun and if their way to have fun is to just keep to themselves and kill skulks, c'est la vie. Sometimes I would rather play without having 11 or 12 other voices assaulting my eardrums but I don't play without a mic because I understand that this game requires communication. However, I obviously cannot speak for everybody. So stop worrying and complaining about what other people do, instead focus on yourself and have fun.
    Post edited by NeXuS on
  • BentRingBentRing Members Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Posts: 397
    RadimaX wrote: »
    Now the question is why are there such a low number of players ? - becouse they change the physics, the values, the structures, the damages and everything within the game every 2 week, no one can stay up to date or bothered relearning the new changes. if they only made tunnels and babblers then left the game alone while making as many optimization changes as possible more people could get used to the game, stick around and feel they was good on something. Not that they was good on version 215 or 249 or 268 or 395919351. The game is never the same, it has no concistancy and no content. black skin can amuse people that donate 75 dollars only for soooo long...every change they make drives me away from this game and i played on my friends acount in a combined total of 2000 hours. We need eclipse map, discovery map - heck even a kahara environment map, 5 or whatever maps they got now (becouse other are unplayable and unvotable) just makes you wanna go do something else than force to play same maps with new values on the lifeforms.

    Am I reading correctly that you don't even own the game (or at the very least you and a buddy split the price)? And then you complain on the forums about lack of content?

    Also, the black armor was for voluntary extra cash on preorder with beta access ($40 instead of $20), rather than the $75 shadow package which was basically a thank you to the devs...
    a.k.a. Roland tHTG
  • RadimaXRadimaX Members Join Date: 2013-02-05 Member: 182840Posts: 587 Advanced user
    32 disagrees on a post saying that UWE changes the game every 2 weeks? how ofthen are they changing the game then once per month? i lost the count honestly
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,193 admin
    @radimax
    Then you should play more.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    NeXuSRoobubbaNazo
  • ZinkeyZinkey Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2013-06-25 Member: 185694Posts: 123
    sotanaht wrote: »
    I don't remember that being the case back when I used to play BF2, the first and last modern military shooter I ever spent time on. I do remember there were points with near constant nadespam but that generally happened as a result of people not being able to make a push and servers weren't heavily dedicated to those maps. Maybe I just didn't notice or maybe the culture has changed, it's not like those games are marketed to anything but idiot dudebros now.

    No it wasnt a problem in BF2 as there wasnt a GREAT deal of things to unlock other than just ranking up. Also they didnt have maps like operation metro/locker, both maps being 5 cap points essentially on a line with at most 2 doorways to go through. Karkand had its standoffs but it was a more 2 dimensional map so when that happened it only took one intelligent squad to go around the standoff and start capping points for it to be eased up.

    The culture of play in the BF games has definitely changed. I find it more difficult to find a decent BF game than I do an NS2 game and the player count for the former is significantly higher.
  • AconitAconit Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-06-07 Member: 185502Posts: 23
    Juste wanted to say : bienvenue NJNaoned !

    Best 1st post I've seen on the forum for ages. Fresh blood and valuable opinions, thanxs for that :)
  • Dictator93Dictator93 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2008-12-21 Member: 65833Posts: 657 Fully active user
    RadimaX wrote: »
    32 disagrees on a post saying that UWE changes the game every 2 weeks? how ofthen are they changing the game then once per month? i lost the count honestly
    I do not have time to play that game super often right now, and yet I manage to adapt quite easily to the changes being made in the patches. Just have to point that out.
    Blainn
  • TzimisceTzimisce Members Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58437Posts: 13
    This game does need to stop mixing veterans with rookies. A bandaid solution could be that in addition to a rookie tag there would be a veteran tag. I know atleast I would stay on servers tagged as veteran and hopefully rookies would stay away from them. A veteran tag could be earned with something like a certain amount of playtime.
    Ingame: Duality / Skulk country, can't stop here
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    edited December 2013
    RadimaX wrote: »
    32 disagrees on a post saying that UWE changes the game every 2 weeks? how ofthen are they changing the game then once per month? i lost the count honestly

    If by "changes" you mean multiple bug fixes and small tweaks to game variables to help improve the game, then yes they do release "changes" every two weeks. It's called supporting the game they designed. Something not many developers do.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    @RadimaX would not survive in a MOBA.
    76561197996992409.png
    joshhhNazoCyberKun
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    Tzimisce wrote: »
    This game does need to stop mixing veterans with rookies. A bandaid solution could be that in addition to a rookie tag there would be a veteran tag. I know atleast I would stay on servers tagged as veteran and hopefully rookies would stay away from them. A veteran tag could be earned with something like a certain amount of playtime.

    There aren't enough skilled pub servers. I want to fight better players, but that leaves me bashing my head against the competitive wall, but if I go back to the public games I'll be stacking and ruining the new player's enjoyment of the game.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    It also doesn't help that the rookie tag is overused. Over the last few weeks, every time I open my server browser and sort my population, 10/12 of the servers are green.
    IeptBarakatRapGod
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