ANOTHER Constructive Way To Make NS2 Fun Again

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  • BeerTentBeerTent Members Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169639Posts: 52
    coolitic wrote: »
    BeerTent wrote: »
    Lookin' through. Ain't seein' it. Feel free to dredge it up though so I can review it, and presumably respond.

    Oh, sorry, was that comment about Exosuits rushing ahead of the group meant to signify a gameplay issue? To me it's merely an example of the most basic design ideal in Videogames. "Easy to Learn, Difficult to Master." Players who rush ahead of the main group is not a design flaw, they're fresh meat, and will learn in their second life to stick with the main group. They're a sign of new players. Over time they will learn the strengths and weaknesses of the Exosuit, and gameplay elements will not need to hold their hand by needlessly nerfing that particular unit.

    Anything else you wish to discuss in regards to my initial post? It seems to be the "constructive" criticism you request, yet largely ignore. Even when another user brings it up.

    What I meant with the exosuits is that the exos are supposed to slow down the main advance a bit (though if you have lots of marines you can still go with just them, but what you just said might occur) so its like playing payload in tf2, but you can kill the payload and it has a sentry on it.

    You're overvaluing the Exo. It's not Forged Alliance's "Strategic Missile". The exosuit is not a game-ender, and it's not designed to be the bane of the entire Alien team. It never was either, so your basic drivel of "revert to 249" does not apply here.

    The exosuit was also never designed to slow down the advance either. They are merely a weapon to take the higher Lifeforms on from a safer distance. (Or lesser lifeforms from an extreme distance, Railgun.) The Exosuit's role is that more of a "big brother", watching over the Marines, and providing heavy fire support against larger groupings of structures. Team Fortress' Heavy, perhaps. Or Sniper... Or Pyro... Maybe?
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    And tf2 heavy is slow, so you kind of proved my point.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • HobocopHobocop Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-11-23 Member: 75226Posts: 130
    edited November 2013
    Not really, because Exos aren't fast enough even with thrusters to escape a damn thing if they get caught out except maybe Gorges.
  • BeerTentBeerTent Members Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169639Posts: 52
    edited November 2013
    coolitic wrote: »
    And tf2 heavy is slow, so you kind of proved my point.

    Look at the roles each class fulfills, not the base variables.

    If you don't understand basic game-development, how can you possibly hope to achieve a meaningful discussion about it?

    @coolitic Allow me to return and edit, and give you another chance at having a meaningful discussion that doesn't end with, "I'm cornered, but he used a buzzword so clearly BeerTent must prove my point."

    Is there anything else in my initial post that you disagree with that you'd like to discuss? Or do you agree with the rest of it? Some of your complaints seem to be centric around the Biomass System, so I advise you actually figure out what the hell you're talking about before continuing. Mind telling me what's required before Stab is unlocked? Leap? Contaminate?
    Post edited by BeerTent on
    Hobocop2cough
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    Tf2 heavy does the role of a slow tank and has heavy fire power. The team (not including spy) should stay with the heavy as he advances hence slowing them down. Exo is better off fulfilling this role instead of just being an offensive upgrade.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • NailoNailo Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-05-06 Member: 185138Posts: 158
    @coolitic. A few things I would like to mention if its alright with everyone here. The whole point of build 250 was to diversify gameplay and make comebacks slightly more possible. They wanted Exo's and Onos to have a lesser impact.

    Exo's DO slow down marine advancement even in these builds. Exo's cannot phase to defend phase gates and exo's really can't go anywhere by themselves forcing teammates to stick with a possibly scared and defensive exo lest his 40-60 pres go to waste. Exo's have less armor meaning they die faster and meaning they are forced to play cautious and support.

    In my opinion, as a pubbie for a long time, most games heavily favor keeping multiple tech points. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the battle over a third techpoint on all except veil is the most pivotal in deciding who wins, not saying that's the case all the time, just my view of it.

    You really need at least 2 fully upgraded hives to have what I consider to be the bare minimum of upgrades. Meaning biomass 6 basically.

    fully upgraded Lifeforms are more expensive than post 249 equivalents as well.

    As too addressing this threads title, what ways could make NS2 more fun, that's a toughie, perhaps give aliens a 4th hive type or small pres sinks that do random things. Perhaps marines could buy a magnum to replace the pistol, more damage for a lower rate of fire and less ammo. Or maybe they could even buy med packs and ammo packs at the armory which they can drop for themselves or teammates. maybe even a 4th class for the marines, something besides the standard marine, exo, jet packer trio.

    I like the idea of making the game more fun so I see nothing wrong with this thread, but for the most part this thread seems more oriented towards only 1 idea 249 vs 250. Could we perhaps consider other ideas as well? pretty please?
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited November 2013
    You make some good points. However, even if an exo plays cautious with his whole team with him he can still be taken down too easily. I think a great idea would be to increase the usefulness/strength of many upgrades (weapons, life forms, maybe even comm upgrades/structures) but lower res income or make them more expensive so that caution is successfully implemented.

    You say the purpose is to allow better comebacks. While somethings might help with that, comebacks are actually nerfed because everything goes swiftly and there often isn't enough time to make a comeback for most situations.

    I understand that increased shotgun atk speed while lowering damage helps prevent getting shot with a crippling blow, but perhaps a compromise can be made there because I think that also makes the game more casual.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • HobocopHobocop Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-11-23 Member: 75226Posts: 130
    edited November 2013
    Making some things easier to pick up isn't necessarily a bad thing, considering that's one of the biggest hurdles this game faces in terms of player retention.

    I'm not exactly sure what purpose your shotgun example is supposed to serve anyway, because those changes, along with reduced shotgun magazine/ammo capacity makes it more difficult to use for less experienced marines, while more skilled marines are still going to extremely deadly with it.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    If player retention is something they care about, then obviously making the game more challenging for experienced players will prevent them from getting bored. Current shotgun is just left click spam and requires little skill (especially with jetpacks, which need their fuel amount nerfed a bit). Lining up shots quickly with skill is the best way to go imo. Again, the game has become too casual as a result.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • HobocopHobocop Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-11-23 Member: 75226Posts: 130
    edited November 2013
    You seriously believe that the shotgun is nothing but left-click spam? Yeah, you just try doing that against experienced aliens, and you'll probably be stuck reloading and dead before having killed anything. There's a reason why they nerfed it's ammo capacity because it was much too powerful before with 8 shells.
  • dragonmithdragonmith Members, Reinforced - Diamond Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182817Posts: 429 Fully active user
    Its good that you found a new word to describe what you feel :P

    Here's a thing to consider, can casual be fun? I'm not saying it is... I'm not saying the game is casual, but are you sure making NS2 more accessible is bad?


    ALSO!! big point here, its not really become more cas cas:

    -Aura was added, allowing for more alien tactical awareness, while combining cloak and silence into on deadly strike skulk
    -Nano shield changed? I'm not sure when, but it made the game far more tactical when using it, can't just drop on anyone no more.
    -Cat packs back in, whenever they got added.
    -Current shotgun has what 6 shots and shells for 3 full reloads. Spam does not let you solo 3 skulks as marine (I've done it)

    -You say marines don't need techpoints. I say they are really useful. New beacon spot, new place to relocate if needed, a 2nd IP and beacon spot... and duelies.

    Lastly, to use your heavy example. A heavy even with medic is really, really easy to kill still (about the same as an exo?)
    Howser is da BEST!
  • NailoNailo Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-05-06 Member: 185138Posts: 158
    @coolitic I disagree that comebacks have been nerfed. As you yourself have pointed out marines can now get exo's and jetpacks on one tech point. Phase gates can be built on infestation now. Gorge tunnels no longer require research by the Kham.

    All of these recent changes have buffed not nerfed the ability to comeback from a bad situation. As far as how fast the game flows well that's the nature of the RTS/FPS shooter. Those who move fast and claim the most resourses usually wins however those who extend themselves too far leave themselves open to counterattack.

    As far as exo's are concerned, if they position themselves properly and have a few decent shot marines then nothing should be able to kill it save for the entire enemy team or a suicidal group of aliens.

    Also another issue to bring up is that you want to basically reverse the effect build 250 had on most of the game. I think the reason why everything was nerfed was to be less punishing to newer players who were trying out the game.

    What kind of upgrades do you want to increase the potency of? Shotguns feel fine both before and after 250. perhaps a nice compromise would be an increased magazine at a lower rate of fire? I want my 8 shots back lol.

    Are we trying to make the game more fun or not lol? Lets not worry about the game being too casual or competitive.

    But as for whether or not the shotgun is fun or not I must admit that almost every weapon on the marines side as far as guns go are left click spam with mild pauses in between to aim or reload.

    The way I see it if you strengthen things back to the way they were you will have a lot less teamwork than what exists now. Because everything is less effective by themselves so much so that someone alone won't accomplish much at all, it naturally encourages teamwork to increase survival chances and likelihood of success

    As it is now the game encourages teamwork to the utmost to kill highly skilled shotgunning marines, gorged onii, exo's. The small magazine size is deliberate in that it encourages teamwork to cover your reload and reduces op Rambo's.

    Please note that part of this is speculation and part of it is my opinion, not all of it is fact lol. I'm pretty sure I might be wrong on something and if I am feel free to tell me. I won't get mad, promise ^_^.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    Hobocop wrote: »
    You seriously believe that the shotgun is nothing but left-click spam? Yeah, you just try doing that against experienced aliens, and you'll probably be stuck reloading and dead before having killed anything. There's a reason why they nerfed it's ammo capacity because it was much too powerful before with 8 shells.

    That was exaggeration, but the general idea still applies.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited November 2013
    Yeah I was fine with what you suggested about the shotguns

    If we have stronger but harder to get upgrades/weapons/lifeforms, people take more caution into how they use them and making the game less casual.

    Also, the opposite of casual is not competitive but rather skill-oriented/challenging. I am sort of an NS2 veteran (not before it was released on steam though) and found the game does not challenge me that much anymore and so I don't feel that rush or challenging feel as I did before 250. I understand trying to bring new players in, but if you want people to tell others how awesome this game is you have to make the game more fun again and make it challenging. Newbies can just go to rookie-friendly servers. Yes it is true that people like my self tend to play on rookie-friendly servers, if we fix the skill rating system newbies can have better time learning.

    Personally when I first played NS2, I got killed by marines all the time and despite some frustrating moments, I still found it fun to learn the game

    Now I destroy every single marine that gets in my way B-)
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • catolmcatolm NorwayMembers, Reinforced - Silver Join Date: 2013-10-31 Member: 188909Posts: 44
    edited November 2013
    I just started playing this game a month ago or so, maybe a little more then that and I am one of the ones who ain't very good at surviving. My score is usually good, but my KDR is usually around 0.3-0.4 when I am doing alright, but I have noticed one thing. As a alien skulk, I am not afraid of exo's at all. Whenever I charge exo's I more often destroy them then they me, even if they are two. Shotguns however, they make me totally useless. Jetpacks, I can only dream of killing if the commander has researched Leap. However there is one thing I love to use, but I feel is overpowered and that is the bile bomb. I can't count the number of times I've totally destroyed the leading marine team as a solo Phantom Gorge.

    I feel like the balance is ok, it is in favour of the aliens, as you can clearly see from ns2stats.com (3500 rounds at 58% alien 42% marine is pretty safe statistics). What will help the unequality of these stats I cannot say, but I wonder if the exo had a little more defence (especially against skulks) and the skulks upgrades weren't free if that would've helped us closer to a 50/50. Or maybe increase the magazine size for marines by 50%*WeaponLevel/3. (This would increase lmg mag size by 5 per wep level and shotgun mag size by 1 per level).

    Cheers. Chariot
  • dragonmithdragonmith Members, Reinforced - Diamond Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182817Posts: 429 Fully active user
    @catolm, I like most of that, except skulk upgrades not free mightttt be a bit overkill. That and you say you can 2v1 exos as skulk? Dang, can you show us that? To put it bluntly that sounds fucking amazing

    Also, you should have seen bile before its nerf :P
    Howser is da BEST!
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited November 2013
    And I 1v1 exo with it at full hp as a skulk. Is a rare thing so can't record it. As for catolm, since no reasonable speed buff is gonna prevent the biles from killing the exo, the only solution is to buff exo hp, have good flamers and welders at your side, and simply be a good pilot.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • TurbineTurbine Members Join Date: 2012-09-13 Member: 159160Posts: 172 Fully active user
    coolitic wrote: »
    And I 1v1 exo with it at full hp as a skulk. Is a rare thing so can't record it. As for catolm, since no reasonable speed buff is gonna prevent the biles from killing the exo, the only solution is to buff exo hp, have good flamers and welders at your side, and simply be a good pilot.

    They can't compete with a single Onos now, I just charge in and take out a couple of them. Was better when they were a challenge.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    Well an onos 1v1 with exo should usually have onos win provided there isn't much distance between them. Also I think defense sturctures should be a little more potent/expensive as they don't do much against 2 or more ppl.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • HobocopHobocop Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-11-23 Member: 75226Posts: 130
    That's kind of the idea. They're meant to slow down or deter enemies from attacking, not defend bases by themselves outright.
    Nazo
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    They dont even slow them though and dont do anything during a team fight.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    Wait did they nerf crags heal AGAIN?!?!?! Either I misunderstood that or they are out of their minds.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • HobocopHobocop Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-11-23 Member: 75226Posts: 130
    edited November 2013
    coolitic wrote: »
    They dont even slow them though and dont do anything during a team fight.

    Bull. If the opposing team spends time killing your defensive structures instead of the buildings which are actually important, that's slowing them down, giving your team more time to respond to the attack than you'd otherwise have without those defenses there. Or, they can choose to attempt to run past them, taking free damage and being easier to kill by the time defending players show up, and most likely being poorly positioned since the defensive structures deny enemy players from standing around in their threat range.

    In teamfights, they have to split their focus on killing the defensive structures or enemy players. If they focus on killing defenses, it makes them much easier to take out by defending players. If they focus on fighting players, but defenses are positioned correctly, it will either force them to take additional damage throughout the fight, or force them into unfavorable positions where the defending players have the advantage.

    Claiming that they don't do anything is nonsense.
    Post edited by Hobocop on
    cypher0six
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    Defenses take very little ttk compared to how much res they cost. You might as well use gorge tunnels to slow them down.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • HobocopHobocop Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-11-23 Member: 75226Posts: 130
    edited November 2013
    Irrelevant. Time spent killing or circumventing defenses is still more time for defending players to respond to the attack. Time spent killing defenses in the middle of a fight is time spent not killing players/higher lifeforms. It's up to players to make the most of this extra time. Defenses are not going to be worthwhile on a team where people take 10-20 seconds to even begin to respond to a base assault. This is, at the end of the day, a game where players are fighting players. Inordinate amounts of time/effort spent killing static defenses shouldn't be the focus of the game.
    cypher0six
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited November 2013
    They dont even deal much dmg. It is relevant since a team of marines (with grenade launchers of course) can focus down a couple of whips in 10 seconds. Without launchers i say 20 seconds. Do you know how much res that costs? (and that marines can simply retreat after destroying defenses)
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • HobocopHobocop Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-11-23 Member: 75226Posts: 130
    Okay, so where is the alien team while this group of marines is running around with grenade launchers, who are notoriously vulnerable to direct alien attack? Sitting around in a vent growing flowers around their gorge tunnels?

    Your statement assumes that the alien players are going to be idiots, and not scout, communicate enemy movements, and respond, pre-emptively or otherwise, to attacks on their fortifications.

    Additionally, how much res did those precious grenade launchers cost? I'm pretty sure it's a hell of a lot more than a couple of whips do, not to mention the cost of the armory and research required to unlock the GLs for purchase, which already pushes the cost of grenade launchers over those of a few whips even if not a single marine purchases a GL.

    Your cost-benefit analysis fails.
    cypher0six
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    in ns2 ppl tend to atk when there are no enemies there (and there often is little to none in many places)

    Grenade launcher costs what, 25? multiple whips cost what, 100?
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    A great way to make updates is to do something like planetside 2 roadmap (i have mentioned this before). Basically players vote on certain (not including minor changes) changes to be implemented into the game and after voting on the poll, they discuss it. If this was implemented (and an in-game link so more people use it) changes would often turn out well.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


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