That's because nothing you wrote was worth commenting on. Every post in this thread aside from yours are just people basically saying you don't know what you are talking about.
You've already ruined any chance you had for people to take you seriously with the constant 'revert to 249' spam posts. What do you expect?
It does not matter whether ppl take me seriously or not what matters was I wanted ppl to talk constructively on how to make the game more fun but therius keeps de-railing.
GISPBattle GorgeDenmarkJoin Date: 2004-03-20Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
edited November 2013
@Nazo I see no reason to do anything here, he is welcome to share his opinion. And in case there is likeminded people who just so happins to be modders, and create this "ideal game" I wont rob em the chance of coming together.
And as long the conversation is kept dapper and on topic, no modding will be needed. Dosnt matter if i agree or not. Im not here to judge.
So basically, this thread is suggesting NS2 to go back to B249 without actually saying: "Plz revurt 2 b249 plox"
(P.S The game is much more fun/balanced post 249)
That was supposed to be a joke having to do with ironhorse and he suggested I make a detailed thread, which I did.
And remember what i said?:
"At this point i'd really consider ceasing the 249 campaign.. no one agrees and no one likes hearing the same thing over and over and over and over I bet if you started a thread you'd get to see this in neon lights.
Juuuuusssstttttt a thought
Take care"
This is those neon lights i was warning you about, friend. :-/
While some users haven't been very polite to you, I also see plenty of constructive posts in this thread which have not been responded to by you either, which makes me wonder if you really do want a constructive conversation to occur, or you just wanted to give your opinion again? (what some would call the "coolitic 249 spam")
So please, provide counter arguments to what has been provided, (ignore any derailing) or else i don't see a reason for this thread to continue.
the problem is:
people dont talk /answer in a constructive way, because the "facts" you mention are not really "good" / experienced / call-it-like-you-want.
they talk about your facts and not about future changes (constructive answers) based on your facts.
While some users haven't been very polite to you, I also see plenty of constructive posts in this thread which have not been responded to by you either, which makes me wonder if you really do want a constructive conversation to occur, or you just wanted to give your opinion again? (what some would call the "coolitic 249 spam")
considering coolitic doesn't know how post b249 ns2 operates, I don't think much is going to happen.
My biggest concern for this game is that it has begun to feel more like a generic deathmatch and that gameplay seems to have lost some structure. The old fade was much more fun to play imo and I think that res should be more limited so that people take more care into playing. Proto lab should be 2 chairs again and the exo should tank up and lose some speed.
This will re-introduce a lot of structure into the game and would make the whole match less like a simple deathmatch along with evening out the speed of match progression.
My biggest concern for this game is that it has begun to feel more like a generic deathmatch and that gameplay seems to have lost some structure. The old fade was much more fun to play imo and I think that res should be more limited so that people take more care into playing. Proto lab should be 2 chairs again and the exo should tank up and lose some speed.
This will re-introduce a lot of structure into the game and would make the whole match less like a simple deathmatch along with evening out the speed of match progression.
Why do you think the protolab upgrades on 2 tech points should be a good idea? do the marines turtling in their base tech to jps and exo and rush out and kill 3-4 hives to win the game? Do the marines already hold tech points on the map? Do the marines hold strategic points, that aren't tech points, blocking the aliens? I don't see any reasoning behind any of your suggestions other than "the game seemed better then".
Because I often see marines get exos on 1 tp ESPECIALLY on veil. It also means marines must accomplish the task of securing thay 2nd tp to get the reward of proto lab similarly to how aliens mus get multiple hives for more biomass.
Because I often see marines get exos on 1 tp ESPECIALLY on veil. It also means marines must accomplish the task of securing thay 2nd tp to get the reward of proto lab similarly to how aliens mus get multiple hives for more biomass.
On veil, if the marines are on 1 tp, that means the aliens should be on 3 hives and ready to roll. They should have pretty much every res node up to marine start by then. When those derp exos leave base, you go to base or just attack the exos.
First off, Coolitic, hat's off to you. Despite being constantly flamed or constantly flaming, you are indeed persistent! But hopefully this will be your last 249 thread!
My biggest concern for this game is that it has begun to feel more like a generic deathmatch and that gameplay seems to have lost some structure.
What specifically do you think makes the game feel generic and deathmatchy? If you'd like to be constructive, I think pin-pointing your displeasure w/ examples would be helpful. IMO, there would be no gameplay if there was no structure, since you know as well as I that ns2 is a team-based game. If you're having deathmatch-type gameplay outside of combat, maybe it's greens? Maybe they need encouragement/reminding to not wander off alone?
Proto lab should be 2 chairs again and the exo should tank up and lose some speed.
1 chair exos are still both viable and vulnerable by design. There's still much incentive to secure another TP as dualies are only available for purchase w/ 2 CCs. Usually if I join a game and it's 10+ min in and my team has not yet secured a 2nd TP, exos aren't going to be much help anyways. Also, it's still very possible to solo exos, despite recent speed boost (silence ftw).
Really would like to hear more specifics though, and not just "It was more fun before" kind-of-things.
Also, show me your proof that it was specifically 250 that roadblocked people. Infamous is a dried out and inaccurate word to describe 250. If anything, reinforced (255ish - 257) added more bugs and hiccups than 250 did.
Also the reason you don't see more people supporting this thread is because after the infamous 250 many people just stopped playing ns2 and there already is proof of that.
First of all, if you saw the the steam stats for ns2 shortly after 250 was released, the amount of players dropped dramatically.
But hey lets get back on topic.
2nd of all, it feels more deathmatch-y because people seem to quickly finish up getting rt, weapons, lifeforms, etc. and just go straight in the battle because they dont have much to lose. It is easy for them to get their stuff back after they die.
It does not matter whether ppl take me seriously or not what matters was I wanted ppl to talk constructively on how to make the game more fun but therius keeps de-railing.
/facepalm. This is a thread about 'making the game more fun.' The thing is, people have to take you seriously because your idea of "fun" is just that: your idea. And clearly, not many people agree with your sentiments. Can you see why a lack of credibility would be a major detriment here?
That's because the old fade was #facerollmode. Anyone who could spam shift + left click could carry, but not anymore. While I do feel that the fade isn't nearly as viable as it once was, I still disagree that it's less 'fun.' It's more challenging now, and I find challenges fun.
2nd of all, it feels more deathmatch-y because people seem to quickly finish up getting rt, weapons, lifeforms, etc. and just go straight in the battle because they dont have much to lose. It is easy for them to get their stuff back after they die.
You keep talking about NS2 being "deathmatch-y" now. Not sure what game you were playing pre-250, but it's been that way the whole time. Sorry to burst your bubble.
As far as the second part goes: you're saying this as if "quickly" establishing res flow, getting upgrades, "weapons [and] lifeforms" wasn't done pre-250? The only time people have nothing to lose is when they go in vanilla style: LMG without a welder, or skulk. Zero pres investment. Everything else costs something, no matter how small the pres spent, so there is a risk.
And how is it "easy" to get stuff back? I assume you're talking about the 'changed' res rate, but as has been stated numerous times thus far, pres and tres have been completely unchanged.
You're surprised that the game turns into a huge brawl once both teams spread out and stake claims on all available unclaimed territory? What did you expect? When there's no longer any free TPs or resource nodes left, the only ones left to take are the ones your enemy holds, and everyone starts murdering each other to claim the other's territory while defending their own.
it feels more deathmatch-y because people seem to quickly finish up getting rt, weapons, lifeforms, etc. and just go straight in the battle because they dont have much to lose. It is easy for them to get their stuff back after they die.
Alright, I appreciate your thought there, but I simply disagree. I think that since by now the players that play regularly in pubs have a better understanding of game flow and understand that the most efficient team is likely to win, players obviously want to get out there to get res -> tech before the other team. I dont think that aspect of gameplay has changed at all since release. I also disagree that it's too easy to get weapons back. Personally, if I just dropped a shotty and I have a chance of even just making it to pick it up before being slaughtered again to bring it a little closer to home, I'd usually take the risk. But it is a risk. Gorge is one of the first lifeforms I usually see upgraded, so it's not crazy to think you could see bile not long after or around the same time as shotties are out, so they may not stay out for long. Again, maybe players are just developing more game-smart habits by now. I think the fact that a lot of pubbers watch comp play, and translate strats into pub play more often, also increases base knowledge of lower skilled players.
Referring to your statement about player count, I think it also points to the probability that the people who play today are probably more dedicated or have been playing for long enough now to have been retained. Maybe get summo' hours into the current build and stop lookin for reasons to not enjoy it, and keep yourself up w/ the rest of the community! It's still tons o fun!
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Geez another one? I wasn't done reading the first one man... Well I didn't read it I LIED mwuahaha. Also it seems to be on track again and I'm late t the show :-?
*drives his flamethrower tank back into the shed, you have no idea about Dutch fuel prices. Please behave for my wallet's sake. My Ol Crocodile is quite the fuel guzzler*
@casan0vax + @2cough While I do think 249 is the best build, this topic isn't solely for 249 VS 250 (though parts of it are), but it's also just a discussion on how to make the game better (hence the title)
See the thing is, that, I liked it when marines would have to be based just outside the aliens base because it was like a siege. Now the marines just build a phase gate then continually send marines into (rather than sieging from outside of the room) and while it may still take some time, there isn't as much of holding-the-line-and-pushing-them-back and often ends quicker.
What i meant with the game feeling like a deathmatch is that the large battles are too swift (at least imo) and there also isn't enough of a strategy element necessary.
@coolitic, watch some of these (hey, nothing wrong with pander) and go to about 20 mins. I was com in that game, and despite throwing marines into the meatgrinder, it wasn't working. It took some effort + arcs to win and had aliens flanked us they could have still won.
Also, what do you think about the fact aliens lifeforms cost more to fully upgrade then before?
Furthermore, if we're looking solely at the cost of each lifeform, Consider this, A fully upgraded Onos was 75? Now it's 84pres. The Traits for each lifeform cost resources now. A gorge fully upgraded is 11. Have you played since 249?
More killing does not make it more deathmatchy I think imo
Finally, compare it to combat -the ultimate death match.
Lookin' through. Ain't seein' it. Feel free to dredge it up though so I can review it, and presumably respond.
Oh, sorry, was that comment about Exosuits rushing ahead of the group meant to signify a gameplay issue? To me it's merely an example of the most basic design ideal in Videogames. "Easy to Learn, Difficult to Master." Players who rush ahead of the main group is not a design flaw, they're fresh meat, and will learn in their second life to stick with the main group. They're a sign of new players. Over time they will learn the strengths and weaknesses of the Exosuit, and gameplay elements will not need to hold their hand by needlessly nerfing that particular unit.
Anything else you wish to discuss in regards to my initial post? It seems to be the "constructive" criticism you request, yet largely ignore. Even when another user brings it up.
It goes for 28 minutes. I am sad you didn't even bother to look. I also don't think the fact its a custom map makes any difference. Are games on Eclipse going to be so different?
Also, you don't think combat is more of a fighting game? Smaller maps, no need for res Faster games and the thing you pick up on is easier to get lifeforms? At level 6 you can onos. But it'll be a terribad one.
I did look, sorry I didnt give an accurate time though. The textures are missing so I assume it's modded and it looks a bit crowded. (honestly I prefer to be honest so again sorry i didn't take an accurate measurement of how long it took)
Lookin' through. Ain't seein' it. Feel free to dredge it up though so I can review it, and presumably respond.
Oh, sorry, was that comment about Exosuits rushing ahead of the group meant to signify a gameplay issue? To me it's merely an example of the most basic design ideal in Videogames. "Easy to Learn, Difficult to Master." Players who rush ahead of the main group is not a design flaw, they're fresh meat, and will learn in their second life to stick with the main group. They're a sign of new players. Over time they will learn the strengths and weaknesses of the Exosuit, and gameplay elements will not need to hold their hand by needlessly nerfing that particular unit.
Anything else you wish to discuss in regards to my initial post? It seems to be the "constructive" criticism you request, yet largely ignore. Even when another user brings it up.
What I meant with the exosuits is that the exos are supposed to slow down the main advance a bit (though if you have lots of marines you can still go with just them, but what you just said might occur) so its like playing payload in tf2, but you can kill the payload and it has a sentry on it.
Comments
You've already ruined any chance you had for people to take you seriously with the constant 'revert to 249' spam posts. What do you expect?
I think he ruined that chance ten minutes after B250 kicked in.
@IronHorse @GISP @Kouji_San
Requesting orbital thread lock-down - over
You starting threads isn't constructive. I don't think you should be starting anymore by these same thought-lines.
And as long the conversation is kept dapper and on topic, no modding will be needed. Dosnt matter if i agree or not. Im not here to judge.
Roger Nazo, standby for fire mission
Break
Nazo this is Iron, fire for effect
Grid 569387
One misguided poster out in the open, fuse VT
At my command, request shot and splash, Over
*Tzzt*
And remember what i said?:
"At this point i'd really consider ceasing the 249 campaign.. no one agrees and no one likes hearing the same thing over and over and over and over
I bet if you started a thread you'd get to see this in neon lights.
Juuuuusssstttttt a thought
Take care"
This is those neon lights i was warning you about, friend. :-/
While some users haven't been very polite to you, I also see plenty of constructive posts in this thread which have not been responded to by you either, which makes me wonder if you really do want a constructive conversation to occur, or you just wanted to give your opinion again? (what some would call the "coolitic 249 spam")
So please, provide counter arguments to what has been provided, (ignore any derailing) or else i don't see a reason for this thread to continue.
Now with that reassurance from ironhorse, I will try to get this back on track.
people dont talk /answer in a constructive way, because the "facts" you mention are not really "good" / experienced / call-it-like-you-want.
they talk about your facts and not about future changes (constructive answers) based on your facts.
considering coolitic doesn't know how post b249 ns2 operates, I don't think much is going to happen.
This will re-introduce a lot of structure into the game and would make the whole match less like a simple deathmatch along with evening out the speed of match progression.
Why do you think the protolab upgrades on 2 tech points should be a good idea? do the marines turtling in their base tech to jps and exo and rush out and kill 3-4 hives to win the game? Do the marines already hold tech points on the map? Do the marines hold strategic points, that aren't tech points, blocking the aliens? I don't see any reasoning behind any of your suggestions other than "the game seemed better then".
On veil, if the marines are on 1 tp, that means the aliens should be on 3 hives and ready to roll. They should have pretty much every res node up to marine start by then. When those derp exos leave base, you go to base or just attack the exos.
What specifically do you think makes the game feel generic and deathmatchy? If you'd like to be constructive, I think pin-pointing your displeasure w/ examples would be helpful. IMO, there would be no gameplay if there was no structure, since you know as well as I that ns2 is a team-based game. If you're having deathmatch-type gameplay outside of combat, maybe it's greens? Maybe they need encouragement/reminding to not wander off alone?
1 chair exos are still both viable and vulnerable by design. There's still much incentive to secure another TP as dualies are only available for purchase w/ 2 CCs. Usually if I join a game and it's 10+ min in and my team has not yet secured a 2nd TP, exos aren't going to be much help anyways. Also, it's still very possible to solo exos, despite recent speed boost (silence ftw).
Really would like to hear more specifics though, and not just "It was more fun before" kind-of-things.
Also, show me your proof that it was specifically 250 that roadblocked people. Infamous is a dried out and inaccurate word to describe 250. If anything, reinforced (255ish - 257) added more bugs and hiccups than 250 did.
But hey lets get back on topic.
2nd of all, it feels more deathmatch-y because people seem to quickly finish up getting rt, weapons, lifeforms, etc. and just go straight in the battle because they dont have much to lose. It is easy for them to get their stuff back after they die.
That's because the old fade was #facerollmode. Anyone who could spam shift + left click could carry, but not anymore. While I do feel that the fade isn't nearly as viable as it once was, I still disagree that it's less 'fun.' It's more challenging now, and I find challenges fun.
You keep talking about NS2 being "deathmatch-y" now. Not sure what game you were playing pre-250, but it's been that way the whole time. Sorry to burst your bubble.
As far as the second part goes: you're saying this as if "quickly" establishing res flow, getting upgrades, "weapons [and] lifeforms" wasn't done pre-250? The only time people have nothing to lose is when they go in vanilla style: LMG without a welder, or skulk. Zero pres investment. Everything else costs something, no matter how small the pres spent, so there is a risk.
And how is it "easy" to get stuff back? I assume you're talking about the 'changed' res rate, but as has been stated numerous times thus far, pres and tres have been completely unchanged.
Alright, I appreciate your thought there, but I simply disagree. I think that since by now the players that play regularly in pubs have a better understanding of game flow and understand that the most efficient team is likely to win, players obviously want to get out there to get res -> tech before the other team. I dont think that aspect of gameplay has changed at all since release. I also disagree that it's too easy to get weapons back. Personally, if I just dropped a shotty and I have a chance of even just making it to pick it up before being slaughtered again to bring it a little closer to home, I'd usually take the risk. But it is a risk. Gorge is one of the first lifeforms I usually see upgraded, so it's not crazy to think you could see bile not long after or around the same time as shotties are out, so they may not stay out for long. Again, maybe players are just developing more game-smart habits by now. I think the fact that a lot of pubbers watch comp play, and translate strats into pub play more often, also increases base knowledge of lower skilled players.
Referring to your statement about player count, I think it also points to the probability that the people who play today are probably more dedicated or have been playing for long enough now to have been retained. Maybe get summo' hours into the current build and stop lookin for reasons to not enjoy it, and keep yourself up w/ the rest of the community! It's still tons o fun!
*drives his flamethrower tank back into the shed, you have no idea about Dutch fuel prices. Please behave for my wallet's sake. My Ol Crocodile is quite the fuel guzzler*
What i meant with the game feeling like a deathmatch is that the large battles are too swift (at least imo) and there also isn't enough of a strategy element necessary.
Also, what do you think about the fact aliens lifeforms cost more to fully upgrade then before?
More killing does not make it more deathmatchy I think imo
Finally, compare it to combat -the ultimate death match.
erm that is a custom map so doesnt rly count. Also, 20 min is too short, game should last like a dota 2 match so 30-50 minutes.
Compare to combat? Well in combat you get upgrades/lifeforms easier. (dont know what you really want me to say)
Still no response to the book I posted either, is it sapient? I lied earlier. This is becoming a comedy for me. Keep this discussion going.
And uh, what do you mean about turning into one of those, am I not getting something?
Oh, sorry, was that comment about Exosuits rushing ahead of the group meant to signify a gameplay issue? To me it's merely an example of the most basic design ideal in Videogames. "Easy to Learn, Difficult to Master." Players who rush ahead of the main group is not a design flaw, they're fresh meat, and will learn in their second life to stick with the main group. They're a sign of new players. Over time they will learn the strengths and weaknesses of the Exosuit, and gameplay elements will not need to hold their hand by needlessly nerfing that particular unit.
Anything else you wish to discuss in regards to my initial post? It seems to be the "constructive" criticism you request, yet largely ignore. Even when another user brings it up.
It goes for 28 minutes. I am sad you didn't even bother to look. I also don't think the fact its a custom map makes any difference. Are games on Eclipse going to be so different?
Also, you don't think combat is more of a fighting game? Smaller maps, no need for res Faster games and the thing you pick up on is easier to get lifeforms? At level 6 you can onos. But it'll be a terribad one.
What I meant with the exosuits is that the exos are supposed to slow down the main advance a bit (though if you have lots of marines you can still go with just them, but what you just said might occur) so its like playing payload in tf2, but you can kill the payload and it has a sentry on it.