just look @ the jumping marin who is crouching in the air and gets pulled down.
I actually mentioned this way back when, amongst a million other things, in a huge post on the private balance forums wasabi set up for sewlek, but I guess he never got around to fixing it. I think the reason things like this doesn't get fixed is simply because there's too many issues and not enough time or manpower to fix them all. If they were working with a licensed engine the number of issues would be much more manageable, but given that they designed their engine from scratch, that's just how it is I guess.
In the end, I've personally made the conclusion that (a) NS2, although a fun game in itself, was a disappointment compared to what I hoped it could be, and (b) while UWE have made a lot of poor decisions during development of NS2, my impression has always been that they've tried their best to make a great game for everyone, and nobody can deny that their competitive event support has been superb considering how tiny the competitive playerbase has been.
Okay this is going off course a bit. I will update the top post when I get a chance to reflect the main (constructive on-topic) themes that are coming out of this thread.
The bottom line is this:
Network performance parameters (client moverate is 20?!) needs to be configurable, not hard coded.
Replay/HLTV system would be amazing for the live world champs. If there is ANY way of getting that into NS2, it'll really help to make the most of the WC finals but also have great knock-on effects for casting, and for people creating their own video/promo content. Got to be good for UWE. Plus it would surely be a feature for the next game on Spark, right?
Samusdroid's QOL fixes need to make it into vanilla ASAP!
@Hugh, @Sewlek is that a list that either of you could comment on?
Finally, a reminder to all: please keep this thread civil and productive. There have been a good number of very useful and helpful posts, so thank you to all who've taken the time to pass on their expertise and experience!
I think the list is very much agreeable, but I also think the big challenge is finding the right combination assuming something can be done.
For example netcode changes are huge, but then again the time might be better spent on fixing a dozen smaller things or so. This is where I'd appreciate some dialogue from UWE coming in as they're the only ones having any real understanding on what can be done and how much effort it takes.
To be clear, I don't necessarily want any concrete promises or such. Mostly just I feel any proper discussion is going to need some kind of input on how much the improvements 'cost' in terms of NS2 development resoucres and how dramatic of an improvement there could be to justify the spend resoucres.
Once there's some understanding of the costs, people can actually start discussing on what things are the best investments rather than just highlighting the importance of a dozen things that all surely would be awesome, but that can't all fit into UWE's todo list.
Since we've got Lua, it might also worth discussing on whether UWE can set up something so that possible willing community members can carry on the Lua implementation.
Netcode stuff is engine work, which Max does, gameplay/QOL fixes are relatively simple and handled by other people in UWE (Brian, mostly). So I'd say that replays would be difficult to do, but the other two could be done...
Network performance parameters (client moverate is 20?!) needs to be configurable, not hard coded.
Replay/HLTV system would be amazing for the live world champs. If there is ANY way of getting that into NS2, it'll really help to make the most of the WC finals but also have great knock-on effects for casting, and for people creating their own video/promo content. Got to be good for UWE. Plus it would surely be a feature for the next game on Spark, right?
Samusdroid's QOL fixes need to make it into vanilla ASAP!
@Hugh, @Sewlek is that a list that either of you could comment on?
In order -
It is extremely unlikely that NS2 will move to a configurable update rate.
No replay system will be implemented for the NS2WC. This feature is often requested, and often discussed as if it was easier to implement than it really is. For such a feature to be implemented, a significant amount of time would have to be applied by an experienced engineer, and no such resource allocation can be made at this time. Such a system exists in Dota2, in LoL, in SC2 because significant resources were allocated to make it happen. UWE does not have those resources. This is the most raw and base explanation for the lack of such a feature we can possibly provide.
It is likely that a meaningful proportion of the issues mod-patched by SamusDroid (amongst others) will be addressed during the next few months. The changes made by SamusDroid cannot be directly incorporated into NS2. It is not a matter of simply take his code and applying it to the core game - Probable cascading dependency effects throughout the code-base mean that changes need to go through a comprehensive and resource intensive iteration and testing process before they can be released as a build. While the cynics out there might crow that NS2 builds are full of bugs all the time, the process behind Steam builds exists for a reason. The effects of removing that process are inevitably disastrous for the stability, performance and functionality of the game.
@Hugh
...Start having an open and honest dialogue on what possibly can be done, what the community feels necessary and what UWE needs out of the tournament...
I do not understand your post. If I am correct, you wish for me to restate the following -
Various parts of the community, including forum members, have and continue to voice their opinions on what is necessary for the NS2WC to be successful. What can 'possibly be done' is lots, but not many of the suggestions in this thread can be included. What UWE needs out of this tournament is nothing. This tournament was not started by UWE, and UWE does not need it to happen, UWE wants it to happen, and we will continue to do everything we possibly can to make it happen, and be wonderful.
This thread seems to be being derailed to a significant degree. The tone, attitude, and rude presumptions about UWE's internal processes by certain posters does not make for a pleasant and productive reading experience. While this thread is of course welcome to go in any direction that everyone wants, if it continues in that direction, I will cease visiting it it and using it as a source for input.
"Not important" makes inaccurate assumptions, @Blind. "Insufficient resources" is the reason you are looking for. It is important, UWE would like it to happen, we do care about it.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited November 2013
What direction do you think its going to go in now that you've just outright said that two of the most requested features / improvements will never be coming, I wonder. And that quality of life improvements (and major game crippling bugs that have been present since alpha) that Samus is doing amazing work on won't be integrated for months at a minimum.
Several improvements listed in the OP are handled by mods. cHUD adds options for cleaning up the UI, Samus has mods for commander + extra bindings and for bug fixes (gun jam, double whip slap), the NSL mod does what it can to help with the ridiculous interpolation.
The ENSL (and any other hubs where competitive NS2 is played) should be running these mods that address a fraction of the issues you listed. If a competitive mod needs to be developed, then so be it. Previously I argued against the idea - creating a divide and hurdle with separate game rules isn't desirable. But considering the game has been released for a year and the competitive scene isn't getting any larger with the game in its current and mostly final state, there isn't anything to lose anymore.
The collision in NS2:BT is indeed a massive improvement and will hopefully be implemented faster than Samus' bug fixes. Whatever play system is being developed to use the hive stats is coming too, however I don't expect it'll ever be used by a playerbase of a couple hundred. The reality is that the big problems you listed, the ones that require more than a mod. Largely aren't going to be fixed. As Hugh has just explained.
After Season 3, what I would really like to see instead of another custom map cup, is an NS2:C cup. : D
Network performance parameters (client moverate is 20?!) needs to be configurable, not hard coded.
Replay/HLTV system would be amazing for the live world champs. If there is ANY way of getting that into NS2, it'll really help to make the most of the WC finals but also have great knock-on effects for casting, and for people creating their own video/promo content. Got to be good for UWE. Plus it would surely be a feature for the next game on Spark, right?
Samusdroid's QOL fixes need to make it into vanilla ASAP!
@Hugh, @Sewlek is that a list that either of you could comment on?
In order -
It is extremely unlikely that NS2 will move to a configurable update rate.
No replay system will be implemented for the NS2WC. This feature is often requested, and often discussed as if it was easier to implement than it really is. For such a feature to be implemented, a significant amount of time would have to be applied by an experienced engineer, and no such resource allocation can be made at this time. Such a system exists in Dota2, in LoL, in SC2 because significant resources were allocated to make it happen. UWE does not have those resources. This is the most raw and base explanation for the lack of such a feature we can possibly provide.
It is likely that a meaningful proportion of the issues mod-patched by SamusDroid (amongst others) will be addressed during the next few months. The changes made by SamusDroid cannot be directly incorporated into NS2. It is not a matter of simply take his code and applying it to the core game - Probable cascading dependency effects throughout the code-base mean that changes need to go through a comprehensive and resource intensive iteration and testing process before they can be released as a build. While the cynics out there might crow that NS2 builds are full of bugs all the time, the process behind Steam builds exists for a reason. The effects of removing that process are inevitably disastrous for the stability, performance and functionality of the game.
@Hugh
...Start having an open and honest dialogue on what possibly can be done, what the community feels necessary and what UWE needs out of the tournament...
I do not understand your post. If I am correct, you wish for me to restate the following -
Various parts of the community, including forum members, have and continue to voice their opinions on what is necessary for the NS2WC to be successful. What can 'possibly be done' is lots, but not many of the suggestions in this thread can be included. What UWE needs out of this tournament is nothing. This tournament was not started by UWE, and UWE does not need it to happen, UWE wants it to happen, and we will continue to do everything we possibly can to make it happen, and be wonderful.
I think the response you posted on Roo's post was pretty close to what I was looking for. You have my thanks for that. Obviously I'd still appreaciate more discussion on what actually can be done, but this is a mighty fine start already.
As for UWE's needs, it's fine if you don't need anything. Meanwhile I'd also be more than happy to hear if UWE has some kind of hopes for the tournament. A lot of those can be probably done so that they benefit everyone involved. That's how good cooperation goes, everyone respects each other's motives and sees which can be fit into the same plan.
Of course I'd also be delighted to hear UWE's plan for NS2 in general and see how things can be arranged there so that everyone benefits, but that's probably worth another thread at some point.
Glad to see posts from people without a clue... Most of the issues presented here were sans game play - things that prove problematic or downright preventative to a healthy competitive scene. While game play is very important that has always been one place UWE has shown its willing to make changes, so while the current state sure has its problems that is one thing I have little concerns about improving. It is very disappointing to hear that there is little/0 chance of a configurable update rate, however not unexpected. A basic replay system however I would have thought might have been within the realm of possibility, especially considering that there is currently the existing demo functionality. I have always thought people long confused this topic, as while an HLTV system would be huge, that's not something I would ever expect from UWE. However a simple demo system like NS1 had, which allowed you to record and playback first person demos (from spec or whatever). This system was huge for allowing the creation of videos, and it was these demos that were preferred to HLTV ones (HLTV was always had a lot of delays).
Obviously fixes to longstanding bugs and quirks is always welcome, especially some of the larger ones. Having something happen here and there as a public player isn't so bad, but when your playing for something more serious and encounter those issues sometimes multiple times per round, it can be a real enthusiasm drain.
I think the other biggest thing currently is really just poor performance. Around B240 (LuaJIT) the game seemed to perform its best, recent patches have seen the performance levels dropping (Servers struggling to hold 30 ticks, Choke issues have been getting worse). The game also does still seem to have some outstanding bugs relating directly to the net code and interpolation - One I believe which impacts the client update rate, which prevents it from actually reaching the 20/s hard coded limit currently, and the other which causes camera stutter at lower FPS.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
He only stated they shall not implement a hltv like option and no changed rates..
So asumption tells us that the rest is on the to do list. It may take long, but I can understand that.
May I remind everyone who says that mods implement a lot of these changes already, that those mods often bring hidden flaws?
Who remembers ns2stats giving the game glancing bites on structures, while the live game had that patched long ago? Such hidden mod bugs may be plenty and its not a farfetched idea to think many mod bugs are present at the moment. So having them say that they want to rigorously test such changes even if the mods work, sounds perfectly reasonable.
as for @Hugh, it may help with the discussion if you specify why uwe doesnt like to change the hardcoded rate.
He only stated they shall not implement a hltv like option and no changed rates..
So asumption tells us that the rest is on the to do list. It may take long, but I can understand that.
now guess how long it will take for sewlek to do that all alone
@Hugh I'm trying to keep this thread constructive, and it's only a small minority of nay-sayers, please just ignore them! Thanks for your response!!
I must admit that, unlike Dragon, I was very surprised that the client update rate change is something that you guys consider extremely unlikely. This is precisely why this thread is important - something that perhaps many of us think should be easily attainable and very useful may actually be a vast amount of work and we simply can't know that. That's why I'm very grateful for your responses here and really want to keep this dialogue open. I would like to push back a little on this point - it's been raised by several people privately to me to be one of the biggest issues that competitive NS2 faces (and it would also help pub play no doubt if modders can find a way to optimise the network parameters too). How unlikely is it, and is there even a sliver of hope that this could be done? We consider it something that would be massively beneficial to the longevity of competitive NS2 gaming.
About the replays and/or HLTV-type system, I understand that the TV system would be a huge task, although 'simply' the ability to start, stop and playback recordings would be great, as xDragon already said. Is there any scope for just that?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that implementing Samusdroid's fixes is a case of copy and paste, but what he has done is to identify the bugs and test a workaround already on a large scale. This at least gives positive feedback for you guys and means you don't have to do all the bug-hunting to find the original problem. Of course, fixing these through the usual update mechanism would be required and very much welcomed by ALL players, comp and pub-only alike!
Is there anything from that original list which UWE would consider adding to their to-do list? The WC being funded now is fantastic, as it will really raise the profile of NS2. Clearly there is no obligation on UWE to do any more to the game, but as a company with an extremely positive outlook towards its community, I'm sure you guys do still have some plans to continue to finesse NS2.
If you prefer, you can PM me directly. I'm happy to be the liaison here if that would work better!
This thread seems to be being derailed to a significant degree. The tone, attitude, and rude presumptions about UWE's internal processes by certain posters does not make for a pleasant and productive reading experience. While this thread is of course welcome to go in any direction that everyone wants, if it continues in that direction, I will cease visiting it it and using it as a source for input.
So because this thread derailed at some point, you would suddenly disregard all the earlier suggestions, a list you previously called out as being quite useful?
How about you start taking all of this way less personal, and react in a more professional way? That way the forum also might lose this "north Korean"stench, that started spreading around here these past weeks..
The reactions to this "threat" of yours speaks boundaries about what that kind of behavior does to a community. People are scared of speaking their mind, apologetic about voicing valid concerns and we are talking about customers here, something that gets forgotten quite too easily around here.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Obviously he read the old posts so those suggestions are already considered.
Silly Rebirth.
@Aioros Well I did not claim he would do it fast.. haha.
Somewhere deep in my failing memory I remember something with the update rates being tied to the server tickrate or something. That would explain why changing update rates would not work.
This thread seems to be being derailed to a significant degree. The tone, attitude, and rude presumptions about UWE's internal processes by certain posters does not make for a pleasant and productive reading experience. While this thread is of course welcome to go in any direction that everyone wants, if it continues in that direction, I will cease visiting it it and using it as a source for input.
So because this thread derailed at some point, you would suddenly disregard all the earlier suggestions, a list you previously called out as being quite useful?
How about you start taking all of this way less personal, and react in a more professional way? That way the forum also might lose this "north Korean"stench, that started spreading around here these past weeks..
The reactions to this "threat" of yours speaks boundaries about what that kind of behavior does to a community. People are scared of speaking their mind, apologetic about voicing valid concerns and we are talking about customers here, something that gets forgotten quite too easily around here.
I don't want to derail this too far here, but I feel the major problem - all the personal frustration aside - is that often unless you push Hugh quite a bit, you're going to get something like the first response to this thread. There's just nothing concrete or constructive on that post at all, in fact it's more just an advert for the tournament donation page.
That being said, I feel I'm not contributing much positivy to the forums again and it looks like a good time to take a break. My apologies to anyone I've managed to offend here and especially apologies to @Roobubba for generating chaos on the thread.
@Bacillus, it's understandable, because we all love this game so much. UWE is a small company and has only limited resources to do what it can. What they've achieved already in NS2 is remarkable - truly remarkable. Ignoring any arguments of 'wouldn't it have been better if...' - there's no value in those right now - you still have to sit back and marvel at the achievement.
Let's just look at where we are now compared with say Jan/Feb this year:
New players are getting a better experience than ever.
Competitive play has more strategic variety.
Performance is improved.
The game is more balanced in both pub and comp play.
Those are 4 very big things going in UWE's favour. While many of us here may well have liked some more technical/engine-related work perhaps at the expense of some of the more polishing touches that have occurred lately, that should not even come into the discussion now. With a tiny team, UWE has made a brilliant game.
Back on topic
So, with that said, the purpose of this thread is to identify ANY area of common ground between the competitive community and UWE regarding what specific improvements CAN be made before the World Champs. @Hugh, we want to get involved, or at least be informed of plans that you have to support the game moving forwards to NS2WC. We have some specific ideas already of things that we think are crucial to improving the game such that NS2 can really be an e-sport, and it's great that you've joined in with the discussion - please keep it up!
What would be fairly insulting to us would be for UWE to completely ignore us between now and then, and to then state at the NS2WC finals what an amazing e-sport NS2 is. There are areas that need improvement before we can claim NS2 as a truly great e-sport, and no-one is a fool in this arena. People who've seen great casting of other genuinely huge e-sports will likely be surprised and disappointed at some of the omissions from NS2 so far. This is not bad criticism, please don't get me wrong! It's actually not reasonable to expect all of these things of such a small company. This is purely a pragmatic, forward-looking plea to work with us.
NS2 is already great, you guys have done and continue to do an amazing job. In order to claim that NS2 is a real e-sport, let's nail down a couple of things that are specific and achievable to ensure that NS2 - that is all of UWE, the comp scene, and the general NS2 audience - gets as much out of this NS2WC as is humanly possible.
"Not important" makes inaccurate assumptions, @Blind. "Insufficient resources" is the reason you are looking for. It is important, UWE would like it to happen, we do care about it.
I fear you misunderstood me or I didn't word it correctly. "not important enough to do with the limited resources available" would then be the term I looked for.
This thread seems to be being derailed to a significant degree. The tone, attitude, and rude presumptions about UWE's internal processes by certain posters does not make for a pleasant and productive reading experience. While this thread is of course welcome to go in any direction that everyone wants, if it continues in that direction, I will cease visiting it it and using it as a source for input.
So because this thread derailed at some point, you would suddenly disregard all the earlier suggestions, a list you previously called out as being quite useful?
How about you start taking all of this way less personal, and react in a more professional way? That way the forum also might lose this "north Korean"stench, that started spreading around here these past weeks..
The reactions to this "threat" of yours speaks boundaries about what that kind of behavior does to a community. People are scared of speaking their mind, apologetic about voicing valid concerns and we are talking about customers here, something that gets forgotten quite too easily around here.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@rebirth
So uwe has to be a punching bag in order to be "professional"? Please..
Stop attempting to defend or justify a few people's inability to maintain a friendly and civil discourse with another human being. If you can't see why such posts shoot yourselves in the foot, then you need not give it another thought and cease posting in a thread where the OP is apologizing for you.
Seriously.. If you truly want a healthy communicative relationship, this means the burden is on you as a community as well to provide one and put forth that effort.
Thank you Roo for your efforts, keep it going ;-)
/off topic
@hugh
I would also really like to know why the update rates cannot be modified?
I understand the other systems requiring tons of work to implement, but wouldn't this just be a value change in a few places? (coming from a non programmer)
And if not open to modification, can they be at least hard coded to be dynamically based on player count, i. E. 6v 6 = 50 and 9v9 = 30 etc?
@Roobubba, I have set the necessary wheels turning for SamusDroid's fixes to make it into NS2. Because these fixes are now being applied to the released game, it is possible that not all of them will make it in. Unforeseen dependencies, cascading bugs, and other real world problems may turn up in formal testing that mean they go back to the drawing board. However, changes should start popping up in build 261.
The tickrate question remains extremely unlikely, but I will persue it as far as it can be persued. The replay system is not possible within the NS2WC timeframe and there are no plans to introduce one at any stage. Something that might not make immediate and obvious sense in the context of what you know about how NS2 works and resources available could have one of two attributes: #1. It just doesn't make sense, and UWE has missed something #2. Your knowledge of how NS2 works and the resources available to change it is incomplete. I offer it to you that tickrate & replay systems are #2. I wish I could give you all the information that would make it make sense, but that's beyond the scope of this thread and would probably result in those individuals bent on trolling my face off in here having a total field day. If you think you are so damn smart that #1 is the case, well then bully for you. Though I would question how you could make those assumptions without access to the Spark source code, and access to the production schedules of all UWE employees.
Apart from SamusDroid's bug fixing, replays & the tickrate question, your list stands as follows. I will comment on each point.
Client performance. Progress already has been made, and I'm sure this is a running feature of UWE discussions. Still need to run _nsl_ map versions so more progress welcome. - This issue is too broad to be effectively distilled into action that can be taken during the NS2WC timeframe
Server performance. Took a blow recently compared to some older builds. Probably higher priority than client performance right now. - This issue is too broad to be effectively distilled into action that can be taken during the NS2WC timeframe
Matchmaking. Hive is sort of running, and this is obviously being worked on... - It was initially hoped that Hive would be used to run the NS2WC. Unfortunately this will no longer happen. Matchmaking progress will be made within the next two months, but I cannot promise a specific level of nationality within the NS2WC timeframe
Net Code. - This is not an identification of a specific issue and I cannot take action on it
Net performance in low ping environments can already be boosted significantly by tweaking the rates. Can more be done here for the wider public too? - Please clarify what you mean. Do you mean tweaking rates via a mod or otherwise?
Client updaterate fixed at 20: flexibility to allow server admins to optimise values would be helpful See above
Collision code. Being worked on already? - This is not an identification of a specific issue and I cannot take action on it
Support for replays. Big task but would be extremely beneficial - See above
First Person spectate performance. Switching is still fairly slow; we could really use an HLTV-type client but I realise this is a very big ask to implement. - Efforts will be undertaken to determine if there are ways to reduce switching lag to improve FPS spectate performance during the NS2WC
Anti Cheat features. This has been raised by eg Gliss and others. More details needed from those better informed than me. - Please introduce any concrete suggestions made into this thread. Efforts that make use of existing systems, but improve on them, have the highest chance of getting implemented
UI clutter. Options to reduce this? - Efforts will be undertaken to reduce UI clutter. Please give specific examples of things that are giving you the shits, and ideally branch off into a specific thread - Please help me understand the improvements cHUD makes
Key configuration support. For commanders and players with different keyboard and language layouts. - We will investigate the introduction of a system that stops messing up non-US keyboard play. Due to the way key configs work in Spark, this may not be possible within the NS2WC time frame
I will continue to visit this thread to update my knowledge of priorities for NS2WC improvements, continue to attempt to align the NS2 work priorities of UWE with yours, and continue to attempt to keep you informed of the progress of that alignment. For the purposes of keeping my own morale up, I will be only reading posts from @Roobubba. Please make an effort to help @Roobubba summarise what needs to be done!
from what I know @xDragon has a mod already that can change the updaterate and all that, but he had an issue and the command needs to be re-applied everytime someone joins the server...... maybe contact him for further info on integrating it for this tournament, from personal experience playing on it, it feels better and no issues were noticed.. after several matches on it
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
A few patches ago i fire up the game and the 1st thought was : "wth, this is so supermooth. great". Then i saw experienced skulks dying like flies. This was a pure stompfest cause aliens had nearly zero chance against marines.
It was so easy to track aliens with this build (forget the number, but was one of the last ones).
Cause some huge issues in this build a hotfix-build came out one day later.
With this hotfix-build the game was feeling like before, the supersmooth gameexperience was gone.
To summarize my small story:
Maybe UWE dont want higher client/movement and serverrates cause they need to rebalance the whole game after that=time consuming.
UI clutter. Options to reduce this? - Efforts will be undertaken to reduce UI clutter. Please give specific examples of things that are giving you the shits, and ideally branch off into a specific thread - Please help me understand the improvements cHUD makes
The changelog for chud is over here. If you bothered to look.
Honestly, it's not hard to figure out what is cluttering the UI on your own just playing for a short time. Even playing for 5 minutes and the green players are getting annoyed at me spamming the 'red flares' because they 'can't see shit'.
Then to name a few, there's
- Bilebomb simply being 9000 copy pastes of the same cinematic effect so it's more like a smoke/flash bomb.
- An unholy amount of copy paste of the same smoke effect in every structure death cinematic.
- Babbler deaths being mini flash bangs
- Powernode sounds that are trying to emulate the creation of the universe
- Build structure waypoints from the other side of the map.
- Trolling people by spamming waypoints and exclamation marks around the skulk they are trying to kill.
- Awful, useless minimap squares and dots not showing building or lifeform icons. Coz that matches so well with a big minimap that does...
- Assist points popping up for everything
- Flamethrowers blocking everyone (both alien and marine) from seeing anything.
- Oh god, and commanders trolling people with defend waypoints set to themselves that are like the biggest itch you cannot scratch. Good times.
Collision code. Being worked on already?
- This is not an identification of a specific issue and I cannot take action on it
In your spare time you could try loading up ns2, simply running over clogs, and biting marines that are running away from you. Seems like an easy gateway for someone to start understanding the obvious issues that are generally grouped as collision related by 'knowledge incomplete' plebes like ourselves.
Key configuration support. For commanders and players with different keyboard and language layouts.
- We will investigate the introduction of a system that stops messing up non-US keyboard play. Due to the way key configs work in Spark, this may not be possible within the NS2WC time frame
Net performance in low ping environments can already be boosted significantly by tweaking the rates. Can more be done here for the wider public too? - Please clarify what you mean. Do you mean tweaking rates via a mod or otherwise?
Client updaterate fixed at 20: flexibility to allow server admins to optimise values would be helpful See above
Matso did a big post about this explaining how the netcode worked, so, since the updaterate is fixed at 20 we cannot possibly lower the interp without losing packets. You'll always get the 100ms added to your ping because of the interp. Even in LAN you're playing with 100ms of ping. The updaterate is one of the things we need to be changed server-side and it's simply a hardcoded variable, while we don't know exactly the effects this would make by purely unlocking it, it's not hilariously complicated to turn into a server setting.
Also it'd be nice if while doing this the moverate/interp receive a similar treatment so mods don't have to keep setting it to the desired values (which we're super limited in this regard because of the inability to change the updaterate).
First Person spectate performance. Switching is still fairly slow; we could really use an HLTV-type client but I realise this is a very big ask to implement. - Efforts will be undertaken to determine if there are ways to reduce switching lag to improve FPS spectate performance during the NS2WC
Fun thing is that the first person spectate is choppy because of the updaterate being locked at 20
UI clutter. Options to reduce this? - Efforts will be undertaken to reduce UI clutter. Please give specific examples of things that are giving you the shits, and ideally branch off into a specific thread - Please help me understand the improvements cHUD makes
Someone has already linked you to the list of customizations you can do with my mod, but there's so much more! Like when an extractor explodes and the smoke is so obstructive you can't see the skulk. Or the enzyme/mucous particle effects being blinding... etc.
For the purposes of keeping my own morale up, I will be only reading posts from @Roobubba. Please make an effort to help @Roobubba summarise what needs to be done!
For the purposes of keeping my own morale up, I will be only reading posts from @Roobubba. Please make an effort to help @Roobubba summarise what needs to be done!
Wait, wait, so we need to use someone as a go-between between us and the company's PR guy?
For the purposes of keeping my own morale up, I will be only reading posts from @Roobubba. Please make an effort to help @Roobubba summarise what needs to be done!
Wait, wait, so we need to use someone as a go-between between us and the company's PR guy?
He means he wants constructive, non-trash talking posts; because those lower his self esteem and he just wants to help -aka just list the things you want fixed and info about them, with none of the 'it's been x amount of time and this still isn't fixed etc etc"
Comments
In the end, I've personally made the conclusion that (a) NS2, although a fun game in itself, was a disappointment compared to what I hoped it could be, and (b) while UWE have made a lot of poor decisions during development of NS2, my impression has always been that they've tried their best to make a great game for everyone, and nobody can deny that their competitive event support has been superb considering how tiny the competitive playerbase has been.
I think the list is very much agreeable, but I also think the big challenge is finding the right combination assuming something can be done.
For example netcode changes are huge, but then again the time might be better spent on fixing a dozen smaller things or so. This is where I'd appreciate some dialogue from UWE coming in as they're the only ones having any real understanding on what can be done and how much effort it takes.
To be clear, I don't necessarily want any concrete promises or such. Mostly just I feel any proper discussion is going to need some kind of input on how much the improvements 'cost' in terms of NS2 development resoucres and how dramatic of an improvement there could be to justify the spend resoucres.
Once there's some understanding of the costs, people can actually start discussing on what things are the best investments rather than just highlighting the importance of a dozen things that all surely would be awesome, but that can't all fit into UWE's todo list.
Since we've got Lua, it might also worth discussing on whether UWE can set up something so that possible willing community members can carry on the Lua implementation.
In order -
I do not understand your post. If I am correct, you wish for me to restate the following -
Various parts of the community, including forum members, have and continue to voice their opinions on what is necessary for the NS2WC to be successful. What can 'possibly be done' is lots, but not many of the suggestions in this thread can be included. What UWE needs out of this tournament is nothing. This tournament was not started by UWE, and UWE does not need it to happen, UWE wants it to happen, and we will continue to do everything we possibly can to make it happen, and be wonderful.
This thread seems to be being derailed to a significant degree. The tone, attitude, and rude presumptions about UWE's internal processes by certain posters does not make for a pleasant and productive reading experience. While this thread is of course welcome to go in any direction that everyone wants, if it continues in that direction, I will cease visiting it it and using it as a source for input.
"Not important" makes inaccurate assumptions, @Blind. "Insufficient resources" is the reason you are looking for. It is important, UWE would like it to happen, we do care about it.
Several improvements listed in the OP are handled by mods. cHUD adds options for cleaning up the UI, Samus has mods for commander + extra bindings and for bug fixes (gun jam, double whip slap), the NSL mod does what it can to help with the ridiculous interpolation.
The ENSL (and any other hubs where competitive NS2 is played) should be running these mods that address a fraction of the issues you listed. If a competitive mod needs to be developed, then so be it. Previously I argued against the idea - creating a divide and hurdle with separate game rules isn't desirable. But considering the game has been released for a year and the competitive scene isn't getting any larger with the game in its current and mostly final state, there isn't anything to lose anymore.
The collision in NS2:BT is indeed a massive improvement and will hopefully be implemented faster than Samus' bug fixes. Whatever play system is being developed to use the hive stats is coming too, however I don't expect it'll ever be used by a playerbase of a couple hundred. The reality is that the big problems you listed, the ones that require more than a mod. Largely aren't going to be fixed. As Hugh has just explained.
After Season 3, what I would really like to see instead of another custom map cup, is an NS2:C cup. : D
As for UWE's needs, it's fine if you don't need anything. Meanwhile I'd also be more than happy to hear if UWE has some kind of hopes for the tournament. A lot of those can be probably done so that they benefit everyone involved. That's how good cooperation goes, everyone respects each other's motives and sees which can be fit into the same plan.
Of course I'd also be delighted to hear UWE's plan for NS2 in general and see how things can be arranged there so that everyone benefits, but that's probably worth another thread at some point.
JUST
REVERT
TO
249
(the solution to all problems)
Obviously fixes to longstanding bugs and quirks is always welcome, especially some of the larger ones. Having something happen here and there as a public player isn't so bad, but when your playing for something more serious and encounter those issues sometimes multiple times per round, it can be a real enthusiasm drain.
I think the other biggest thing currently is really just poor performance. Around B240 (LuaJIT) the game seemed to perform its best, recent patches have seen the performance levels dropping (Servers struggling to hold 30 ticks, Choke issues have been getting worse). The game also does still seem to have some outstanding bugs relating directly to the net code and interpolation - One I believe which impacts the client update rate, which prevents it from actually reaching the 20/s hard coded limit currently, and the other which causes camera stutter at lower FPS.
So asumption tells us that the rest is on the to do list. It may take long, but I can understand that.
May I remind everyone who says that mods implement a lot of these changes already, that those mods often bring hidden flaws?
Who remembers ns2stats giving the game glancing bites on structures, while the live game had that patched long ago? Such hidden mod bugs may be plenty and its not a farfetched idea to think many mod bugs are present at the moment. So having them say that they want to rigorously test such changes even if the mods work, sounds perfectly reasonable.
as for @Hugh, it may help with the discussion if you specify why uwe doesnt like to change the hardcoded rate.
now guess how long it will take for sewlek to do that all alone
I must admit that, unlike Dragon, I was very surprised that the client update rate change is something that you guys consider extremely unlikely. This is precisely why this thread is important - something that perhaps many of us think should be easily attainable and very useful may actually be a vast amount of work and we simply can't know that. That's why I'm very grateful for your responses here and really want to keep this dialogue open. I would like to push back a little on this point - it's been raised by several people privately to me to be one of the biggest issues that competitive NS2 faces (and it would also help pub play no doubt if modders can find a way to optimise the network parameters too). How unlikely is it, and is there even a sliver of hope that this could be done? We consider it something that would be massively beneficial to the longevity of competitive NS2 gaming.
About the replays and/or HLTV-type system, I understand that the TV system would be a huge task, although 'simply' the ability to start, stop and playback recordings would be great, as xDragon already said. Is there any scope for just that?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that implementing Samusdroid's fixes is a case of copy and paste, but what he has done is to identify the bugs and test a workaround already on a large scale. This at least gives positive feedback for you guys and means you don't have to do all the bug-hunting to find the original problem. Of course, fixing these through the usual update mechanism would be required and very much welcomed by ALL players, comp and pub-only alike!
Is there anything from that original list which UWE would consider adding to their to-do list? The WC being funded now is fantastic, as it will really raise the profile of NS2. Clearly there is no obligation on UWE to do any more to the game, but as a company with an extremely positive outlook towards its community, I'm sure you guys do still have some plans to continue to finesse NS2.
If you prefer, you can PM me directly. I'm happy to be the liaison here if that would work better!
Thanks again,
Roo
So because this thread derailed at some point, you would suddenly disregard all the earlier suggestions, a list you previously called out as being quite useful?
How about you start taking all of this way less personal, and react in a more professional way? That way the forum also might lose this "north Korean"stench, that started spreading around here these past weeks..
The reactions to this "threat" of yours speaks boundaries about what that kind of behavior does to a community. People are scared of speaking their mind, apologetic about voicing valid concerns and we are talking about customers here, something that gets forgotten quite too easily around here.
Silly Rebirth.
@Aioros Well I did not claim he would do it fast.. haha.
Somewhere deep in my failing memory I remember something with the update rates being tied to the server tickrate or something. That would explain why changing update rates would not work.
That being said, I feel I'm not contributing much positivy to the forums again and it looks like a good time to take a break. My apologies to anyone I've managed to offend here and especially apologies to @Roobubba for generating chaos on the thread.
Let's just look at where we are now compared with say Jan/Feb this year:
New players are getting a better experience than ever.
Competitive play has more strategic variety.
Performance is improved.
The game is more balanced in both pub and comp play.
Those are 4 very big things going in UWE's favour. While many of us here may well have liked some more technical/engine-related work perhaps at the expense of some of the more polishing touches that have occurred lately, that should not even come into the discussion now. With a tiny team, UWE has made a brilliant game.
Back on topic
So, with that said, the purpose of this thread is to identify ANY area of common ground between the competitive community and UWE regarding what specific improvements CAN be made before the World Champs. @Hugh, we want to get involved, or at least be informed of plans that you have to support the game moving forwards to NS2WC. We have some specific ideas already of things that we think are crucial to improving the game such that NS2 can really be an e-sport, and it's great that you've joined in with the discussion - please keep it up!
What would be fairly insulting to us would be for UWE to completely ignore us between now and then, and to then state at the NS2WC finals what an amazing e-sport NS2 is. There are areas that need improvement before we can claim NS2 as a truly great e-sport, and no-one is a fool in this arena. People who've seen great casting of other genuinely huge e-sports will likely be surprised and disappointed at some of the omissions from NS2 so far. This is not bad criticism, please don't get me wrong! It's actually not reasonable to expect all of these things of such a small company. This is purely a pragmatic, forward-looking plea to work with us.
NS2 is already great, you guys have done and continue to do an amazing job. In order to claim that NS2 is a real e-sport, let's nail down a couple of things that are specific and achievable to ensure that NS2 - that is all of UWE, the comp scene, and the general NS2 audience - gets as much out of this NS2WC as is humanly possible.
Positive, positive, positive!
I fear you misunderstood me or I didn't word it correctly. "not important enough to do with the limited resources available" would then be the term I looked for.
I think it's time for an open letter.
So uwe has to be a punching bag in order to be "professional"? Please..
Stop attempting to defend or justify a few people's inability to maintain a friendly and civil discourse with another human being. If you can't see why such posts shoot yourselves in the foot, then you need not give it another thought and cease posting in a thread where the OP is apologizing for you.
Seriously.. If you truly want a healthy communicative relationship, this means the burden is on you as a community as well to provide one and put forth that effort.
Thank you Roo for your efforts, keep it going ;-)
/off topic
@hugh
I would also really like to know why the update rates cannot be modified?
I understand the other systems requiring tons of work to implement, but wouldn't this just be a value change in a few places? (coming from a non programmer)
And if not open to modification, can they be at least hard coded to be dynamically based on player count, i. E. 6v 6 = 50 and 9v9 = 30 etc?
Thanks for explaining, and your time
The tickrate question remains extremely unlikely, but I will persue it as far as it can be persued. The replay system is not possible within the NS2WC timeframe and there are no plans to introduce one at any stage. Something that might not make immediate and obvious sense in the context of what you know about how NS2 works and resources available could have one of two attributes: #1. It just doesn't make sense, and UWE has missed something #2. Your knowledge of how NS2 works and the resources available to change it is incomplete. I offer it to you that tickrate & replay systems are #2. I wish I could give you all the information that would make it make sense, but that's beyond the scope of this thread and would probably result in those individuals bent on trolling my face off in here having a total field day. If you think you are so damn smart that #1 is the case, well then bully for you. Though I would question how you could make those assumptions without access to the Spark source code, and access to the production schedules of all UWE employees.
Apart from SamusDroid's bug fixing, replays & the tickrate question, your list stands as follows. I will comment on each point.
Client performance. Progress already has been made, and I'm sure this is a running feature of UWE discussions. Still need to run _nsl_ map versions so more progress welcome.
- This issue is too broad to be effectively distilled into action that can be taken during the NS2WC timeframe
Server performance. Took a blow recently compared to some older builds. Probably higher priority than client performance right now.
- This issue is too broad to be effectively distilled into action that can be taken during the NS2WC timeframe
Matchmaking. Hive is sort of running, and this is obviously being worked on...
- It was initially hoped that Hive would be used to run the NS2WC. Unfortunately this will no longer happen. Matchmaking progress will be made within the next two months, but I cannot promise a specific level of nationality within the NS2WC timeframe
Net Code.
- This is not an identification of a specific issue and I cannot take action on it
Net performance in low ping environments can already be boosted significantly by tweaking the rates. Can more be done here for the wider public too?
- Please clarify what you mean. Do you mean tweaking rates via a mod or otherwise?
Client updaterate fixed at 20: flexibility to allow server admins to optimise values would be helpful
See above
Collision code. Being worked on already?
- This is not an identification of a specific issue and I cannot take action on it
Support for replays. Big task but would be extremely beneficial
- See above
First Person spectate performance. Switching is still fairly slow; we could really use an HLTV-type client but I realise this is a very big ask to implement.
- Efforts will be undertaken to determine if there are ways to reduce switching lag to improve FPS spectate performance during the NS2WC
Anti Cheat features. This has been raised by eg Gliss and others. More details needed from those better informed than me.
- Please introduce any concrete suggestions made into this thread. Efforts that make use of existing systems, but improve on them, have the highest chance of getting implemented
UI clutter. Options to reduce this?
- Efforts will be undertaken to reduce UI clutter. Please give specific examples of things that are giving you the shits, and ideally branch off into a specific thread - Please help me understand the improvements cHUD makes
Key configuration support. For commanders and players with different keyboard and language layouts.
- We will investigate the introduction of a system that stops messing up non-US keyboard play. Due to the way key configs work in Spark, this may not be possible within the NS2WC time frame
I will continue to visit this thread to update my knowledge of priorities for NS2WC improvements, continue to attempt to align the NS2 work priorities of UWE with yours, and continue to attempt to keep you informed of the progress of that alignment. For the purposes of keeping my own morale up, I will be only reading posts from @Roobubba. Please make an effort to help @Roobubba summarise what needs to be done!
even through the internet I can detect sarcasm
from what I know @xDragon has a mod already that can change the updaterate and all that, but he had an issue and the command needs to be re-applied everytime someone joins the server...... maybe contact him for further info on integrating it for this tournament, from personal experience playing on it, it feels better and no issues were noticed.. after several matches on it
It was so easy to track aliens with this build (forget the number, but was one of the last ones).
Cause some huge issues in this build a hotfix-build came out one day later.
With this hotfix-build the game was feeling like before, the supersmooth gameexperience was gone.
To summarize my small story:
Maybe UWE dont want higher client/movement and serverrates cause they need to rebalance the whole game after that=time consuming.
Honestly, it's not hard to figure out what is cluttering the UI on your own just playing for a short time. Even playing for 5 minutes and the green players are getting annoyed at me spamming the 'red flares' because they 'can't see shit'.
Then to name a few, there's
- Bilebomb simply being 9000 copy pastes of the same cinematic effect so it's more like a smoke/flash bomb.
- An unholy amount of copy paste of the same smoke effect in every structure death cinematic.
- Babbler deaths being mini flash bangs
- Powernode sounds that are trying to emulate the creation of the universe
- Build structure waypoints from the other side of the map.
- Trolling people by spamming waypoints and exclamation marks around the skulk they are trying to kill.
- Awful, useless minimap squares and dots not showing building or lifeform icons. Coz that matches so well with a big minimap that does...
- Assist points popping up for everything
- Flamethrowers blocking everyone (both alien and marine) from seeing anything.
- Oh god, and commanders trolling people with defend waypoints set to themselves that are like the biggest itch you cannot scratch. Good times.
In your spare time you could try loading up ns2, simply running over clogs, and biting marines that are running away from you. Seems like an easy gateway for someone to start understanding the obvious issues that are generally grouped as collision related by 'knowledge incomplete' plebes like ourselves.
So, 4 months isn't enough for this?
Also it'd be nice if while doing this the moverate/interp receive a similar treatment so mods don't have to keep setting it to the desired values (which we're super limited in this regard because of the inability to change the updaterate).
Sewlek made changes/tests with this in the Beta Test mod in the workshop. That's all the question is about.
Fun thing is that the first person spectate is choppy because of the updaterate being locked at 20
Someone has already linked you to the list of customizations you can do with my mod, but there's so much more! Like when an extractor explodes and the smoke is so obstructive you can't see the skulk. Or the enzyme/mucous particle effects being blinding... etc.
LOL!
@Roobubba pls do my job
Wait, wait, so we need to use someone as a go-between between us and the company's PR guy?
He means he wants constructive, non-trash talking posts; because those lower his self esteem and he just wants to help -aka just list the things you want fixed and info about them, with none of the 'it's been x amount of time and this still isn't fixed etc etc"