New Alien Vision

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  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Members Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Posts: 470 Advanced user
    Okxyd wrote: »
    Still no response from the devs ? I'm disappointed . :|

    A response would allow us to argue logically. Since they want to keep it, having us argue 15 different reasons which might not address their 1 reason keeps them from having to defend their reasoning.


    We all know its a matter of wanting to show off the visual elements and that they don't want to go on record saying visual> gameplay
  • MuckyMcFlyMuckyMcFly Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Posts: 616 Fully active user
    New alien vision is horrible, who wants a readybrek glow around everything... not me... it makes the game look rubbish!

    See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c3n-mh5bck


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  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Posts: 1,194
    12 pages... What's the best improvement suggestion so far?

    Surely not "just take the old one back"?
    image
  • niitzeniitze Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2013-07-01 Member: 185839Posts: 26 Fully active user
    12 pages... What's the best improvement suggestion so far?

    Surely not "just take the old one back"?

    If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
    MuckyMcFly
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Members Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Posts: 470 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    12 pages... What's the best improvement suggestion so far?

    Surely not "just take the old one back"?


    Option in menu to reduce visual clutter for AV. &. Option to select color for highlights... Basically 1 check box for clutter, and a color wheel...

    @niitze not a matter of not being broke, it's a matter of pride in visual awesomeness (maps are pretty, but after 1600h I wana fight not admire)
  • amoralamoral Members Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Posts: 1,331 Advanced user
    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    12 pages... What's the best improvement suggestion so far?

    Surely not "just take the old one back"?


    Option in menu to reduce visual clutter for AV. &. Option to select color for highlights... Basically 1 check box for clutter, and a color wheel...

    @niitze not a matter of not being broke, it's a matter of pride in visual awesomeness (maps are pretty, but after 1600h I wana fight not admire)

    got to that point after something like right after finding out alien vision was a mode. clutter is not good. I'd be happy if they brought old vision back and left in outlining to make it a choice between the two, for those that don't mind the clutter.
  • bERt0rbERt0r Members Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Posts: 611 Fully active user
    edited September 2013
    Maybe there really are so many alien only players here that they got so used to alien vision, they cant play without it. Marines had to deal with the vision obstructions since release and they were flaming just as much as you do now. If anything, new alien vision is just fair.

    Apparently just 6 alien only players.
    Post edited by bERt0r on
    Vigilantia
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, BelgiumMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    12 pages... What's the best improvement suggestion so far?

    Surely not "just take the old one back"?

    My preference would be to rework the new AV into something along the lines of the alien minimal vision mod (compromise between good marine highlighting and pretty graphics) that can be used in both bright and dark rooms, while giving people the ability to toggle between this AV and no highlights at all (for the purists).

    If not, I think the standard vision should be more useful in close combat and less cluttering from a distance (thicker outlines in melee range, thinner outlines at farther range). Maybe also make it a dual colored outline if possible (thin outer red outline, thick inner yellow outline) so multiple players/structures don't blend into one color as much. The new flashlight AV would still have to be reworked as well, because currently it's too straining for the eyes, even in pitch black.

    I can accept the idea of having it only useful in dark rooms, but the orange background/white foreground is not an ideal combination. Uncomfortable to use and underwhelming at highlighting marines. I'd prefer the dark green background and yellow foreground of the old AV for instance. If you could scale the brightness of the green background with the lighting, maybe you'd be able to find something that is too annoying/ineffective to use in bright rooms, but as good as the old AV in dark rooms.

  • AchillesAchilles Members Join Date: 2013-04-20 Member: 184907Posts: 73 Fully active user
    I still play with alien vision on almost exclusively.. guess my eyes have gotten used to the abuse over the years xD but people can't really want the old flat textures back can they? I agree that the white-on-orange isn't the best color scheme, but why not just go back to green/orange with this new detail setting?

    I love the new alien vision for how cool it looks, but tracking is another matter I suppose.
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Members Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Posts: 470 Advanced user
    bERt0r wrote: »
    Maybe there really are so many alien only players here that they got so used to alien vision, they cant play without it. Marines had to deal with the vision obstructions since release and they were flaming just as much as you do now. If anything, new alien vision is just fair.

    Fair... Guns? Aliens are clearly meant to have the visual advantage (normal vision highlights targets) so it's clearly not supposed to be the same. fades/lerks/skulks move much faster then rines, and the clutter removes the advantage that they should have.

  • amoralamoral Members Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Posts: 1,331 Advanced user
    Achilles wrote: »
    I still play with alien vision on almost exclusively.. guess my eyes have gotten used to the abuse over the years xD but people can't really want the old flat textures back can they? I agree that the white-on-orange isn't the best color scheme, but why not just go back to green/orange with this new detail setting?

    I love the new alien vision for how cool it looks, but tracking is another matter I suppose.

    there are two ways to increase clarity, increase contrast or reduce clutter. I've read somewhere that overly detailed models actually contribute to eye fatigue.
  • AchillesAchilles Members Join Date: 2013-04-20 Member: 184907Posts: 73 Fully active user
    Interesting. I think they should try changing the contrast first. Have they ever played with colors other than orange/green/white? I do love old school orange/green vision, but being able to see the details in this gorgeous game really is awesome.
  • TheRealJaguarTheRealJaguar Members, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-07-09 Member: 186019Posts: 3
    I too, hate the new alien vision. I agree the minimal vision mod-type vision would have been a marked improvement, this is just PAINFUL to use.
  • Mellow1123Mellow1123 Members Join Date: 2013-03-03 Member: 183615Posts: 20
    Im having doubts if the management at UWE seem to know anything about software development proccesses. They keep doing the same mistakes over and over. They just seem to do things at random from time to time where they dont listen to customers/end-users before implementing features.

    This game has soooo much potential which is far from fully utilized by UWE.

    In addition, If any of the UWE guys would actually play this game competitively - which rewards you with a deeper understanding of this game' mechanichs and its balance - this game would probably be in a better state. I just dont understand why none of the UWE guys seem to find value in playing their own game in a more organized setting.
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Members Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Posts: 470 Advanced user
    Mellow1123 wrote: »
    Im having doubts if the management at UWE seem to know anything about software development proccesses. They keep doing the same mistakes over and over. They just seem to do things at random from time to time where they dont listen to customers/end-users before implementing features.

    This game has soooo much potential which is far from fully utilized by UWE.

    In addition, If any of the UWE guys would actually play this game competitively - which rewards you with a deeper understanding of this game' mechanichs and its balance - this game would probably be in a better state. I just dont understand why none of the UWE guys seem to find value in playing their own game in a more organized setting.


    Oh their management of AV has been perfect. By not officially acknowledging it we can not form a proper argument, as time passes people will forget and new players will never know. In 2 months this will be neatly swept under the rug and forgotten and UWE will have what they want (all of us forced to look at their pretty maps, and cool looking screen shots/teasers to help with sales).
  • rebirthrebirth Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2007-09-23 Member: 62416Posts: 385 Fully active user
    bERt0r wrote: »
    Maybe there really are so many alien only players here that they got so used to alien vision, they cant play without it. Marines had to deal with the vision obstructions since release and they were flaming just as much as you do now. If anything, new alien vision is just fair.

    Apparently just 6 alien only players.

    That's one of the weakest arguments you can make in this case. Natural Selection prides itself with the asymmetrical nature of the teams, so the argument of "Marines have to deal with this too" hardly holds any weight.

    One of the biggest points about NS has always been that the Kharaa are NOT Marines, they are NOT human, they do not abide to "normal human rules". They are predators that evolve further and further to get better at their task, that task being "to survive no matter what". It wouldn't be that far stretched to assume that because of this, Kharaa have evolved far superior senses, compared to TSA Marines, which seem to be their main enemies.

    Marines have to compensate this with their technology, that's what flashlights are for and night-vision goggles could be for, of course they will still be at an disadvantage because using external technology can never compare to having the actual senses.


    Imho the new AV does not deliver the feeling of "having an advantage" at all. One of the problems being that the times where you are in "full darkness" are few in-between an they are short. But the new AV is only really useful in complete darkness. But in those situations you might as well leave it off and just look for Marines flashlights, due to all the darkness and the Marines sticking out, you gonna end up with less visual clutter compared to using AV.

    Personally i would rather see the trade-off in some other way. Kharaa should always be able to see well, regardless of lighting conditions, in that scenario AV could give Kharaa another advantage.
    How about we turn AV into something like a "scent mode"? You turn it on and you can see the trails of Marines that passed 10-30 seconds before, but you won't be able to actually see them when in scent mode, you only see their trails.

    Imho it fits well into the overall theme, it's also a pretty unique mechanic, haven't seen too many games with something like that, sure it's probably gonna impact balance (especially on the competitive level) but i still think it could be a great addition to the game.
  • VigilantiaVigilantia Members Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 51Posts: 342
    rebirth wrote: »
    bERt0r wrote: »
    Maybe there really are so many alien only players here that they got so used to alien vision, they cant play without it. Marines had to deal with the vision obstructions since release and they were flaming just as much as you do now. If anything, new alien vision is just fair.

    Apparently just 6 alien only players.

    That's one of the weakest arguments you can make in this case. Natural Selection prides itself with the asymmetrical nature of the teams, so the argument of "Marines have to deal with this too" hardly holds any weight.

    One of the biggest points about NS has always been that the Kharaa are NOT Marines, they are NOT human, they do not abide to "normal human rules". They are predators that evolve further and further to get better at their task, that task being "to survive no matter what". It wouldn't be that far stretched to assume that because of this, Kharaa have evolved far superior senses, compared to TSA Marines, which seem to be their main enemies.

    Marines have to compensate this with their technology, that's what flashlights are for and night-vision goggles could be for, of course they will still be at an disadvantage because using external technology can never compare to having the actual senses.


    Imho the new AV does not deliver the feeling of "having an advantage" at all. One of the problems being that the times where you are in "full darkness" are few in-between an they are short. But the new AV is only really useful in complete darkness. But in those situations you might as well leave it off and just look for Marines flashlights, due to all the darkness and the Marines sticking out, you gonna end up with less visual clutter compared to using AV.

    Personally i would rather see the trade-off in some other way. Kharaa should always be able to see well, regardless of lighting conditions, in that scenario AV could give Kharaa another advantage.
    How about we turn AV into something like a "scent mode"? You turn it on and you can see the trails of Marines that passed 10-30 seconds before, but you won't be able to actually see them when in scent mode, you only see their trails.

    Imho it fits well into the overall theme, it's also a pretty unique mechanic, haven't seen too many games with something like that, sure it's probably gonna impact balance (especially on the competitive level) but i still think it could be a great addition to the game.

    I never recalled aliens ever having an issue tracking humans in NS1 where they also had "human" vision. The reason it's harder now is due to the odd marine jump mechanic that's been implemented (but that's a separate matter for another thread).

    However, you're talking about trade-offs. Well, that seems odd because there was NO disadvantage to old AV and people laughed at you for not using it. It's like the old Marine motion tracking that had infinite range. Why not use it? Well... because it was a crutch. It cost a lot of res early game that could have been used for other buildings/research. Better players didn't need it and could detect skulks using their game-sense/experience/hearing. That's what I see this as.

    Yes, alien POV (normal and "f" vision) should be made better. The orange hurts peoples eyes so that should be changed to maybe blue or something to accommodate that. Normal AV should probably be fixed to be more accurate (probably a very light orange tinge on enemy units). I've seen skulks hold the bite button eating air because their mouse movement is slow, getting lost in architecture. I've also had an expert skulks rip 3 marines to pieces because he could track like crazy, jumping did nothing to stop him.

    Does anyone know how the competitive scene is going, btw? Are the professional aliens players losing games 7:3? What's their opinion on the matter?
    Murphy's Law on Combat:


    when at first you dont suceed, call in the air support and artillary.
  • iClearSkiesiClearSkies Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-09-22 Member: 160359Posts: 37 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    This thread is getting old and shouldn't have as many posts as it does now, If you have a problem with the NEW alien vision I highly suggest you adopt one of the following mods and make like a bridge and get over it.....Seriously.

    1. Alien Vision: Reloaded This is a inverse take on the new alien vision that adds green tint and uses orange characters as a background. I don't use this and I don't think I ever will because i'm colorblind.
    D1980F86E6F401C80DDF70E8FF5D0D7000D4B996

    2. GLISS VISION Inverse of the Minimal Alien Vision Mod, uses greyscale and yellow outlines at a minimal use, use F to Use
    61DF1278FD290C59D2BF6C779B2DD583E3965385

    3. Minimal Alien Vision This is the mod that I currently use. Due to me being color blind I cannot use the vision from the new patch cause everything is in a purple color. This mod makes alien vision on all the time but only highlights attackable entities, in dark rooms it outlines edges in a dull grey and allows you to experience the ambiance of darkness and helps you see what the marines are seeing. I highly recommend this mod and ill use it most likely forever.
    913BC33DE543632E700899DCE52167888E710E2C

    If you don't like the new alien vision, GET A MOD AND DON'T USE IT. Stop Whining on the forums and ask the devs to do it. In the original NS1 you either had to mod it yourself or change it yourself or SUCK IT UP and the same rules applies to NS2. Once the patching tones down and the game starts to get in a more finalized state Ill start modding again and bring back the old SpaceWolf mods to the joy of NS2.

    Edited for Pictures
    Game Aliases:

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    [Wϸ²] RainbowDash
    [Wϸ²] «The Doctor»

    Pretty much if you see [Wϸ²] Assume its me. Also it stands for the legendary WhichBot (NS1) for the most evil sulk bots ever created.
    Mestaritonttu_Necro_
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    Gliss vision is out of date...
    76561197996992409.png
    Side1Bu2Rnz9
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Posts: 1,194
    Also, some servers like HBZ in EU use custom alien vision on their servers for default.
    image
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Members Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Posts: 470 Advanced user
    @iclearskies lol, a bad design choice should not be gotten over. While I will continue to play I will continue to voice my dissatisfaction with the choice UWE made. As special edition purchaser, and player since 2003, I have more then received my money's worth. BUT as a pre order and enthusiast I also had expectations as far as transparency and open development, as UWE has chosen to ignore this portion of dissatisfied players I am upset.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,904 Fully active user
    Vigilantia wrote: »
    I never recalled aliens ever having an issue tracking humans in NS1 where they also had "human" vision. The reason it's harder now is due to the odd marine jump mechanic that's been implemented (but that's a separate matter for another thread).

    I don't think so. The graphic of NS1 was simply not this full of detail. Your memory may draw you a wrong picture. But NS1 wasn't that detailed. And therefore it was easier to track marines:
    skulkattack.jpg

    vs NS2:

    04.jpg
    DC_DarklingOkxyd
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Join Date: 2003-11-28 Member: 23688Posts: 0 Advanced user
    NS1 could also be ran with silly high fps that rarely dipped, something that would really help in ns2 while tracking strafey jumpy marines.

    I'm fine with the current default vision, just the outline. Alien vision looks rather horrid though, If I'm being honest.
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Members Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Posts: 470 Advanced user
    I just wana know what mariens are complaining that alien have it to easy tracking them "oh man, that skulk only killed me because AV is OP, it had nothing to due with me missing 47 bullets"

    I think AV is good because I enjoy it as an alien, and have NEVER blamed it for a death as a marine. I would argue that the LTP applies to mariens and that AV is not a skill but a matter of comfort.
  • zenefzenef Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-07 Member: 183762Posts: 68 Advanced user
    Vigilantia wrote: »

    I never recalled aliens ever having an issue tracking humans in NS1 where they also had "human" vision.

    In ns1 you have "alien vision" pressing your flashlight makes marines glow transparent white and are easily seen. Similiar as minimal alien vision in ns2.

  • bERt0rbERt0r Members Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Posts: 611 Fully active user
    _Necro_ wrote: »
    Vigilantia wrote: »
    I never recalled aliens ever having an issue tracking humans in NS1 where they also had "human" vision. The reason it's harder now is due to the odd marine jump mechanic that's been implemented (but that's a separate matter for another thread).

    I don't think so. The graphic of NS1 was simply not this full of detail. Your memory may draw you a wrong picture. But NS1 wasn't that detailed. And therefore it was easier to track marines:
    rebirth wrote: »
    bERt0r wrote: »
    Maybe there really are so many alien only players here that they got so used to alien vision, they cant play without it. Marines had to deal with the vision obstructions since release and they were flaming just as much as you do now. If anything, new alien vision is just fair.

    Apparently just 6 alien only players.

    That's one of the weakest arguments you can make in this case. Natural Selection prides itself with the asymmetrical nature of the teams, so the argument of "Marines have to deal with this too" hardly holds any weight.

    One of the biggest points about NS has always been that the Kharaa are NOT Marines, they are NOT human, they do not abide to "normal human rules". They are predators that evolve further and further to get better at their task, that task being "to survive no matter what". It wouldn't be that far stretched to assume that because of this, Kharaa have evolved far superior senses, compared to TSA Marines, which seem to be their main enemies.

    Marines have to compensate this with their technology, that's what flashlights are for and night-vision goggles could be for, of course they will still be at an disadvantage because using external technology can never compare to having the actual senses.


    Imho the new AV does not deliver the feeling of "having an advantage" at all. One of the problems being that the times where you are in "full darkness" are few in-between an they are short. But the new AV is only really useful in complete darkness. But in those situations you might as well leave it off and just look for Marines flashlights, due to all the darkness and the Marines sticking out, you gonna end up with less visual clutter compared to using AV.

    Personally i would rather see the trade-off in some other way. Kharaa should always be able to see well, regardless of lighting conditions, in that scenario AV could give Kharaa another advantage.
    How about we turn AV into something like a "scent mode"? You turn it on and you can see the trails of Marines that passed 10-30 seconds before, but you won't be able to actually see them when in scent mode, you only see their trails.

    Imho it fits well into the overall theme, it's also a pretty unique mechanic, haven't seen too many games with something like that, sure it's probably gonna impact balance (especially on the competitive level) but i still think it could be a great addition to the game.

    If anything, the differences between aliens and marines have become less in NS2 compared to NS1. But suddenly, the aliens need a vision advantage over the marines? Why? The marines have as much trouble tracking aliens blinking around them as the aliens have with tracking the marines. I for one have always felt old alien vision to look really cool but i thought it is kind of op. For example the lerk gas/umbra is powerful enough even if it blocks vision for both parties. Less vision = melee advantage.

    Alien vision is just another common occurance of people getting accustomed to exploiting a bugged/op feature to get their "fun" and winnings. Once it gets fixed the emo shitstorm begins. The same happend when UWE fixed the bugged skulk animations (when simply running up a wall was enough to dodge most bullets).
  • SeeVeeSeeVee Members Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165206Posts: 425 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    IronHorse wrote: »
    When you say alien vision do you mean pressing the F key or the default vision?
    Pressing the F key, (Alien vision) is now only intended for dark rooms.
    Typical view will highlight marines (tho i agree not as well contrasted as previous AV)

    I like the mechanic it puts into the game "for dark rooms only" I think they could make it a tad bit less harsh for the eyes while keeping said mechanic in place.

    Before the change I used to play aliens with the old alien vision on the entire time I played. There was no circumstances in which I needed it. It just made everything easier to see for my kills.

    Current vision is super useful in unpowered rooms and it was great to be able to see the marines coming in to repair power... NOM NOM NOM!
  • OkxydOkxyd Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143981Posts: 57
    @iClearSkies So if we are not agreed with a change in the game we just have the right to install mods and stfu ? I've tested all the mod you submit since the patch: GLISS does not work, Alien Vision Reloaded takes the same color scheme of the old AV but is still confused in big fights and painful for the eyes; finally Minimal Alien vision does the job but is not as effective as the old AV was when you need to navigate fast as Lerk or Fade.

    The thread goes in circle but UWE must do something, not necessarily get the old AV back but find an alternative. By the way I don't remember a single explanation about this change, if they can tell us why they did this it will push this subject a little further.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    @iClearskies: I have tried option 1 and found the colours didn't really work well. The main problem, though, is that it doesn't remove textures, which means it's still rather cluttered. Option 2 is out of date (unfortunately), and option 3 is about the best out there currently, but alas your entire argument falls down when you play competitive games, where alien vision mods are NOT allowed in NSL rules. It's therefore very unwise to practise with alien vision mods, so I'm having to suck up the constant headaches caused by the godawful current alien sight.

    Alien vision mods are not the answer. We need a vanilla option to allow for both a) un-highlighted totally normal vision like marines have AND b) old alien vision (with texture-decluttering and not bloody white on orange), in addition to the current options, so that no-one can't use what they want to use.

    I don't try to stop you using what you want to use. What gives you the right to act otherwise...?
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
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