Just to say that the current fade damage to building/mac is disguting (50). I felt like 60/75 was understandable, but 50/75 makes it almost stupid to consider attacking buildings (too slow; + energy cost ... )
Just to say that the current fade damage to building/mac is disguting (50). I felt like 60/75 was understandable, but 50/75 makes it almost stupid to consider attacking buildings (too slow; + energy cost ... )
Wow, fades have a specific role, aka hunting marines, now and aren't just a super skulk. Imagine that!
Yea once fades are out and you have no skulks killing RTs is a bitch, however that's a trade off I guess for getting assassins over skulks, find a balance I guess.
Also I'm going to repeat myself and say that the fade needs 80 damage minimum, it's just so important and here's why.
There is NO POINT in getting A3, the only way it can assist you is if you take a gorge spit hit or some lerk spikes, then it'd be one less bite/swipe to die, it's not worth it. This means that marines can effectively hit full upgrades by 8 minutes maybe sooner and have a proto by the time they'd normally have 3/3. Basically this destroys the mid game (which really doesn't exist) because by the time fades are out, so is A2, which is the most "defense" marines will get against fades, fades never fight early/mid game marines, they fight late game marines, that's messed up. Simply buffing the damage to 80 making it 3 swipes to kill an A2 marine will make all the difference to how fast marines can tech and how useful fades in combat.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Rock paper scissor mechanics must be maintained. This is done through proper role implementation.
This means Fades shouldn't be able to do everything. They have a role. Imagine if the fastest, evading lifeform had BB... We tried it before, it didn't work.
If you ask me, the fade shouldn't be able to do any structural damage...
A/D air acceleration for skulks should be put back in. It is SOO easy to do. Removing it because it makes increases the skill gap between better players and newbies is a bad reason IMO. You want a movement system that doesn't punish newbies and at the same time rewards people for learning it and who can do it well. We had that a couple days ago when there was minor a/d acceleration.
EDIT!: So this was apparently a rumor and this was not removed. It is working the same as it has been for the last few days or whenever he changed the crazy speed skulks. Sry false alarm . I blame it on the play testers........:D.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2013
Ok.. Since we're on the subject of proper role implementation,
After more time with the lerk...
Its paper.
Maybe the increased lmg spread, double check for hitreg, and a more predictable flight model were enough.. Because the deceased speed and lowered HP just feels doubly nerfing.
I'm dying easily twice as much as live lerk, and that just shouldn't be the case, or the intention, considering it's recent support role changes! (less time spent at close range and in the limelight - should be less risky)
Such a nerf feels frustrating and only punishes new players more, raising the skill floor.
I suggest instant , weak, transparent, medium ranged spores at T1 with spikes as primary fire. Leave umbra where it is. T3 is a poison bite with continuous poison for double the time or something crazy. T3 is way less important out of all this though, considering the awkward state it currently sits in.
Edit : always glad to see a great contribution from you @eh?
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Since lerk hp was increased from 125/30 to 125/45 and 125/65 with cara the hp values are similar to live. As such I don't think I've seen many lerks die lately.
I don't think the bite should be shifted around. Going in for bites becomes increasingly less reliable or worthwhile as the marine game continues, even if it is buffed. And biting unaware marines and flying away is fun when you have the best chance to get away with it.
If ranged spores were in, I'd replace tier 3 crop duster spores with the spikes or primal scream.
Regardless I don't think I'm yet to see 3 hives in a game that is still competitive. Vanilla or BT. The marines generally have enough mobility to make a 2nd hive drop pretty damn difficult. Especially on cross spawns summit. If your on aliens and manage to get 3 dropped. You've locked them in base and can keep redropping any lost life forms.
Just played about four hours of the BT. Marines won every match up until the very last one I played. Even in that one the aliens had something like 100 more kills than the marines but it still took them 45 minutes to break the marine turtle.
A lot about the BT mod is really great but I expect pubs and larger servers are going to be heavily marine sided once it is released.
I must have bad luck with my timing too, any time I've been on the HBZ server over the past week (quite a lot) marines have been absolutely dominating unless aliens got stacked. I've seen maybe, 3 alien wins.
Can't say why really. It's obvious that fades are dying like flys, but then people need more time to adjust to it's new playstyle (which is supposed to be what, exactly?). It also seems to be even easier for marines to outmaneuver skulks in close combat compared to vanilla which doesnt help, but again maybe this is just needing time to adjust, time will tell.
Hello there forum dwellers. Just a casual pubbie here who feels like posting his experience regarding the BT Mod before it goes live (which I'm assuming is pretty much going to be Build 250.)
I joined during the last 50% off sale. Enjoy 16-24 player servers and have 91 hours played thus far with Vanilla. Spent I dunno 4-5 hours playing BT Mod tonight.
Negative thoughts:
- Feels like the Marine skill ceiling has dropped and the Alien skill floor has risen so high that even a stacked Alien team is having trouble dispatching of Marines.
- Lerk feels like a flying brick. Has its strafe movement been nerfed? Feels like it glides forward a lot slower as well? So paper thin even with level 3 carapace.
- Fade movement feels sluggish. Can't quite put my finger on it.
- Marine fatigue being removed seems to be giving Marines much better map coverage making RT harassment by skulks and Alien expansion harder while on the flipside making Marine expansion and harassment of Alien bases/RTs easier. I'm seeing almost constant pressure being put on Aliens all match long. Was shocked to see how much pressure a mediocre Marine team was able to keep on a stacked Alien team that was rocking some ridiculous K/D ratios. Can't tell if its the fatigue being removed that is causing this, the lerk no longer being able to keep marines in check early game, or both.
- Those new marine shotties. Why increase their fire rate? Trying to outplay or escape a shotty marine just feels like a terrible experience now.
- Lower cost grenade launcher. Vanilla it was mostly a situational item for dispatching of crag/gorge nests or base pushes. Now people have no problem pulling one and spamming them down hallways or jet-pack spamming them the entire match. Results in a lot of unsatisfying fluke kills/deaths. Enjoyed it more when they were primarily used for sieging bases.
- Warning: Exo Rant (feel free to skip):
This has been bothering me for some time. I have refrained from ranting about it, but now that I am seeing so many more Dual Exos in BT than I did in Vanilla I just have to get it my chest. Whether its the Marines easier ability to expand and protect RTs or the lower purchase cost... Dualies seem to be popping up everywhere in every match. Don't know about anyone else but I always considered these to be the worst aspect of this game. A skill-less bullet hose where the driver could close his eyes and still wreck alien face just by holding down his mouse buttons and spinning around in a circle. Annoying to fight against with all alien lifeforms and they just turn the game into a boring grind. Reducing their Armor has made them easier to kill, but honestly even weaker Armored Dual-Exo spam is just downright un-fun. Know it will never happen but I wish the single armed Exos were the Marine end-game unit and the Dualies were just removed all together. Single minis are strong enough offensively and getting a kill with a single-arm (especially that Railgun Alien Exploder!) is exhilarating. While dying to one warrants a tip of the cap to the Exo. Problem: I honestly can't remember the last time I've seen a single mini or rail exo in the field and that's a shame. They just seem so outclassed by the Dualies in terms of skill required to alien murder rate that people just ignore them. Am I wrong here? Do you guys see the singles much? Would anyone shed a tear if dualies just disappeared?
Positive thoughts:
- No res while dead removed helps new players.
- MAC repair spam removed.
- Crag heal stacking removed giving Gorges a bigger role in healing teammates and bases.
- Alien Regen ability finally seems useful.
- Welders being available without research.
- Armories not replenishing armor promotes teamwork and tries to address the armory humping problem. Though MACs repairing in battle can obstruct view and be a bit annoying.
- New biomass system and alien ability/upgrade seems more interesting.
- Umbra actually gets used. Rarely saw it in vanilla. Though on the flip-side Umbra is less fun to use than the poison gas cloud. So playing Lerk felt even more like a chore.
- "extractors and command stations can now be parasited". Pretty cool.
Overall Thoughts:
To be honest I really didn't have much fun at all. I used to enjoy playing Marines and Aliens equally often opting for the Random Team gate pre-match, but with this mod the experience of playing Aliens really felt like crap. Even when finishing with a high K/D ratio I wasn't having much fun. Its almost as if this mod is just a Marine-Buff Alien-Nerf patch masquerading as a "Balance Mod."
I'll keep trying it, but... I just don't know. I was really excited reading about this Mod, but after trying it I am quite let down. All those posts I was reading from BT mod doubters that it would scare away a lot of players... I was laughing so hard at their absurd doom-and-gloom prognostications... you know usual forum stuff from people afraid of change. But now I'm not so sure. Maybe they were on to something.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2013
Marine turtles are occuring in every pug atm. Aliens require some precise coordination and map knowledge to counter. You need to be aware how many marines are away from the phase gates, how many are defending and you need to set up a push with a variety of abilities and life forms. It's a pretty tall order. On the flip side, any marine team can set up a phase and armory block.
At the moment I feel the Onos is severly under powered even with umbra and fade support. It can be so easily focused down and doesn't have any mobility to esacpe. I didn't even notice a difference when I evolved 3rd level celerity. I think that a permanent parasite would lessen the turtle strength also, as well as give skulks another goal besides attempting to get past phase gate turtles for res biting.
And fucking hell marines tech fast. Would like to go back to 15 tres extractors very much. And 2 tres medpacks.
Marine turtles are occuring in every pug atm. Aliens require some precise coordination and map knowledge to counter. You need to be aware how many marines are away from the phase gates, how many are defending and you need to set up a push with a variety of abilities and life forms. It's a pretty tall order. On the flip side, any marine team can set up a phase and armory block.
At the moment I feel the Onos is severly under powered even with umbra and fade support. It can be so easily focused down and doesn't have any mobility to esacpe. I didn't even notice a difference when I evolved 3rd level celerity. I think that a permanent parasite would lessen the turtle strength also, as well as give skulks another goal besides attempting to get past phase gate turtles for res biting.
And fucking hell marines tech fast. Would like to go back to 15 tres extractors very much. And 2 tres medpacks.
Thoughts?
I'd like to see the onos HP stay where it is. But increase it's acceleration and movement control. Aliens can turtle too, so early game is alot more of a res game. I have a feeling that aliens now need to kill shotgunners like marines need to kill fades in the live build. The economy makes a shotgunners death ALOT more important in my opinion.
2 tres medpacks. I want to agree with them. But if they're 2 res I don't want a cooldown. I don't know this should be discussed more because it's a major effect on economy
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i tried 2 t.res meds multiple times, its just too punishing when the marine team is already behind and it prevents comebacks. it was working somewhat "ok" when extractors were only at 8 t.res, but we had then alot of other issues because of that
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Yea, best of at 1 tres for now atleast then.
80 armor fade and shotguns standard damage felt very good. There was plenty of opportunity for me to die because my movement wasn't perfect, but I didn't. I think with biomass scaling this is worth leaving to rest and see what happens around other changes. Once people start getting used to the fade movement as marines it won't seem as high.
Rock paper scissor mechanics must be maintained. This is done through proper role implementation.
This means Fades shouldn't be able to do everything. They have a role. Imagine if the fastest, evading lifeform had BB... We tried it before, it didn't work.
If you ask me, the fade shouldn't be able to do any structural damage...
Agreed, rock, paper, scissor is good, but where is that on the marine side? True, FT and GL aren't as good at killing aliens, but they can still do it. SG does everything. If the fade (marine killer) is going to do little to no damage to structures, why is the SG (alien killer) good at killing everything? It's freaking heavy damage (last I played) which only makes it better at killing EVERYTHING.
Also is the tres-to-pres system junked completely? I thought it was a fairly interesting idea that could've worked better than lifeform eggs if the numbers were worked out correctly. The lifeform eggs prevent much chance for marine comebacks as aliens can just keep dropping them indefinitely if their economy is good enough.
Played some games today and the balance felt pretty good, when my team lost it was because we failed to pressure properly or the other team did a better job defending while harassing our economy. I still don't like how clumsy the lerk feels but at least their hp is a bit more reasonable now.
Been playing this for a while now since they announced the changes will be brought into the next patch. Really like the changes to tech trees, drifter and gorge play, costings on marine and alien side seem a lot better and general pub play is better.
Absolutely despise the movement changes though it's a real game breaker for me. I don't know why the movement system has been changed - didn't see any problems with the previous system really? Maybe I'm missing something there. The new system is very punishing on forward strafing and the difficulties with diagonal movement is annoying. For me the movement system is what makes ns1 & 2 set apart from other fps/rts, its fluidity and unhampered directional movement (apart from backwards - which feels natural) is excellent. I think it's a terrible shame that this will be tinkered with.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@dc_darkling hey buddy good to see you out of the tech support forums ;-)
What is it exactly you don't like about the movement, if you are able to describe it?
I rarely use the mouse sway mechanic, and mostly use the wopping (wall hopping) just like earlier versions of vanilla ns2, so the only button requirement is fwd + space bar.
Comments
Wow, fades have a specific role, aka hunting marines, now and aren't just a super skulk. Imagine that!
Also I'm going to repeat myself and say that the fade needs 80 damage minimum, it's just so important and here's why.
A2: 4 skulk bites, 4 fade swipes, 3 onos gores.
A3: 4 skulk bites, 4 fade swipes, 3 onos gores.
There is NO POINT in getting A3, the only way it can assist you is if you take a gorge spit hit or some lerk spikes, then it'd be one less bite/swipe to die, it's not worth it. This means that marines can effectively hit full upgrades by 8 minutes maybe sooner and have a proto by the time they'd normally have 3/3. Basically this destroys the mid game (which really doesn't exist) because by the time fades are out, so is A2, which is the most "defense" marines will get against fades, fades never fight early/mid game marines, they fight late game marines, that's messed up. Simply buffing the damage to 80 making it 3 swipes to kill an A2 marine will make all the difference to how fast marines can tech and how useful fades in combat.
This means Fades shouldn't be able to do everything. They have a role. Imagine if the fastest, evading lifeform had BB... We tried it before, it didn't work.
If you ask me, the fade shouldn't be able to do any structural damage...
EDIT!: So this was apparently a rumor and this was not removed. It is working the same as it has been for the last few days or whenever he changed the crazy speed skulks. Sry false alarm
After more time with the lerk...
Its paper.
Maybe the increased lmg spread, double check for hitreg, and a more predictable flight model were enough.. Because the deceased speed and lowered HP just feels doubly nerfing.
I'm dying easily twice as much as live lerk, and that just shouldn't be the case, or the intention, considering it's recent support role changes! (less time spent at close range and in the limelight - should be less risky)
Such a nerf feels frustrating and only punishes new players more, raising the skill floor.
I suggest instant , weak, transparent, medium ranged spores at T1 with spikes as primary fire. Leave umbra where it is. T3 is a poison bite with continuous poison for double the time or something crazy. T3 is way less important out of all this though, considering the awkward state it currently sits in.
Edit : always glad to see a great contribution from you @eh?
Quiet you!
I will have my revenge...
I don't think the bite should be shifted around. Going in for bites becomes increasingly less reliable or worthwhile as the marine game continues, even if it is buffed. And biting unaware marines and flying away is fun when you have the best chance to get away with it.
If ranged spores were in, I'd replace tier 3 crop duster spores with the spikes or primal scream.
Regardless I don't think I'm yet to see 3 hives in a game that is still competitive. Vanilla or BT. The marines generally have enough mobility to make a 2nd hive drop pretty damn difficult. Especially on cross spawns summit. If your on aliens and manage to get 3 dropped. You've locked them in base and can keep redropping any lost life forms.
And huge +1s to current1y and ghosthree.
A lot about the BT mod is really great but I expect pubs and larger servers are going to be heavily marine sided once it is released.
Can't say why really. It's obvious that fades are dying like flys, but then people need more time to adjust to it's new playstyle (which is supposed to be what, exactly?). It also seems to be even easier for marines to outmaneuver skulks in close combat compared to vanilla which doesnt help, but again maybe this is just needing time to adjust, time will tell.
I joined during the last 50% off sale. Enjoy 16-24 player servers and have 91 hours played thus far with Vanilla. Spent I dunno 4-5 hours playing BT Mod tonight.
Negative thoughts:
- Feels like the Marine skill ceiling has dropped and the Alien skill floor has risen so high that even a stacked Alien team is having trouble dispatching of Marines.
- Lerk feels like a flying brick. Has its strafe movement been nerfed? Feels like it glides forward a lot slower as well? So paper thin even with level 3 carapace.
- Fade movement feels sluggish. Can't quite put my finger on it.
- Marine fatigue being removed seems to be giving Marines much better map coverage making RT harassment by skulks and Alien expansion harder while on the flipside making Marine expansion and harassment of Alien bases/RTs easier. I'm seeing almost constant pressure being put on Aliens all match long. Was shocked to see how much pressure a mediocre Marine team was able to keep on a stacked Alien team that was rocking some ridiculous K/D ratios. Can't tell if its the fatigue being removed that is causing this, the lerk no longer being able to keep marines in check early game, or both.
- Those new marine shotties. Why increase their fire rate? Trying to outplay or escape a shotty marine just feels like a terrible experience now.
- Lower cost grenade launcher. Vanilla it was mostly a situational item for dispatching of crag/gorge nests or base pushes. Now people have no problem pulling one and spamming them down hallways or jet-pack spamming them the entire match. Results in a lot of unsatisfying fluke kills/deaths. Enjoyed it more when they were primarily used for sieging bases.
- Warning: Exo Rant (feel free to skip):
This has been bothering me for some time. I have refrained from ranting about it, but now that I am seeing so many more Dual Exos in BT than I did in Vanilla I just have to get it my chest. Whether its the Marines easier ability to expand and protect RTs or the lower purchase cost... Dualies seem to be popping up everywhere in every match. Don't know about anyone else but I always considered these to be the worst aspect of this game. A skill-less bullet hose where the driver could close his eyes and still wreck alien face just by holding down his mouse buttons and spinning around in a circle. Annoying to fight against with all alien lifeforms and they just turn the game into a boring grind. Reducing their Armor has made them easier to kill, but honestly even weaker Armored Dual-Exo spam is just downright un-fun. Know it will never happen but I wish the single armed Exos were the Marine end-game unit and the Dualies were just removed all together. Single minis are strong enough offensively and getting a kill with a single-arm (especially that Railgun Alien Exploder!) is exhilarating. While dying to one warrants a tip of the cap to the Exo. Problem: I honestly can't remember the last time I've seen a single mini or rail exo in the field and that's a shame. They just seem so outclassed by the Dualies in terms of skill required to alien murder rate that people just ignore them. Am I wrong here? Do you guys see the singles much? Would anyone shed a tear if dualies just disappeared?
Positive thoughts:
- No res while dead removed helps new players.
- MAC repair spam removed.
- Crag heal stacking removed giving Gorges a bigger role in healing teammates and bases.
- Alien Regen ability finally seems useful.
- Welders being available without research.
- Armories not replenishing armor promotes teamwork and tries to address the armory humping problem. Though MACs repairing in battle can obstruct view and be a bit annoying.
- New biomass system and alien ability/upgrade seems more interesting.
- Umbra actually gets used. Rarely saw it in vanilla. Though on the flip-side Umbra is less fun to use than the poison gas cloud. So playing Lerk felt even more like a chore.
- "extractors and command stations can now be parasited". Pretty cool.
Overall Thoughts:
To be honest I really didn't have much fun at all. I used to enjoy playing Marines and Aliens equally often opting for the Random Team gate pre-match, but with this mod the experience of playing Aliens really felt like crap. Even when finishing with a high K/D ratio I wasn't having much fun. Its almost as if this mod is just a Marine-Buff Alien-Nerf patch masquerading as a "Balance Mod."
I'll keep trying it, but... I just don't know. I was really excited reading about this Mod, but after trying it I am quite let down. All those posts I was reading from BT mod doubters that it would scare away a lot of players... I was laughing so hard at their absurd doom-and-gloom prognostications... you know usual forum stuff from people afraid of change. But now I'm not so sure. Maybe they were on to something.
At the moment I feel the Onos is severly under powered even with umbra and fade support. It can be so easily focused down and doesn't have any mobility to esacpe. I didn't even notice a difference when I evolved 3rd level celerity. I think that a permanent parasite would lessen the turtle strength also, as well as give skulks another goal besides attempting to get past phase gate turtles for res biting.
And fucking hell marines tech fast. Would like to go back to 15 tres extractors very much. And 2 tres medpacks.
Thoughts?
If you're holding crouch while jumping along walls you're going to be going slower
crouch as skulk doesnt slow you down anymore
I'd like to see the onos HP stay where it is. But increase it's acceleration and movement control. Aliens can turtle too, so early game is alot more of a res game. I have a feeling that aliens now need to kill shotgunners like marines need to kill fades in the live build. The economy makes a shotgunners death ALOT more important in my opinion.
2 tres medpacks. I want to agree with them. But if they're 2 res I don't want a cooldown. I don't know this should be discussed more because it's a major effect on economy
80 armor fade and shotguns standard damage felt very good. There was plenty of opportunity for me to die because my movement wasn't perfect, but I didn't. I think with biomass scaling this is worth leaving to rest and see what happens around other changes. Once people start getting used to the fade movement as marines it won't seem as high.
Agreed, rock, paper, scissor is good, but where is that on the marine side? True, FT and GL aren't as good at killing aliens, but they can still do it. SG does everything. If the fade (marine killer) is going to do little to no damage to structures, why is the SG (alien killer) good at killing everything? It's freaking heavy damage (last I played) which only makes it better at killing EVERYTHING.
Absolutely despise the movement changes though it's a real game breaker for me. I don't know why the movement system has been changed - didn't see any problems with the previous system really? Maybe I'm missing something there. The new system is very punishing on forward strafing and the difficulties with diagonal movement is annoying. For me the movement system is what makes ns1 & 2 set apart from other fps/rts, its fluidity and unhampered directional movement (apart from backwards - which feels natural) is excellent. I think it's a terrible shame that this will be tinkered with.
What is it exactly you don't like about the movement, if you are able to describe it?
I rarely use the mouse sway mechanic, and mostly use the wopping (wall hopping) just like earlier versions of vanilla ns2, so the only button requirement is fwd + space bar.